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Well, I would measure the legions on how well they do in a CAD, and DG and EC are waayyy up on that list.
WB are easily last as they get a buff that relies on an apostle still nobody wants to take and their relics are barely ok, to say nothing about posessed. the Crown is nice and the tome, everything is lack lustre. The script is kind of ok if you happen to have an HQ with no artefact left.
1 extra ML is 25 points which gives you 6 WC over the course of the game, this might just give you 1. Or bring daemon allies with brimstone horrors instead.
I don't really care about WT because they're even more random than psychic powers. Half the time I forget I have them.

So basically the only thing WB have going for them is a prince that can summon easier. The weapons are all worse than the black mace which they can still presumably take.
Until they get an update like exalted dark apostles and gal vorbak, they're really not that interesting.

So are we finally able to say CSM have risen above bottom tier? Certainly not Top tier with Eldar, Tau, and Gladius Marines, but I'd personally say CSM are at least on par with non-Gladius Marines.

I would even dare say certain builds might even be better than Necrons (looking at Death Guard bike lists). And the ability to take multiple detachments of varied Legions should make for some interesting lists.

 Galef wrote:
So are we finally able to say CSM have risen above bottom tier? Certainly not Top tier with Eldar, Tau, and Gladius Marines, but I'd personally say CSM are at least on par with non-Gladius Marines.

I would even dare say certain builds might even be better than Necrons (looking at Death Guard bike lists). And the ability to take multiple detachments of varied Legions should make for some interesting lists.

Well this is an odd one because i'd put them even up a little bit more because those of us who'v stayed faithful for years have had to play with subpar stuff so we're ard! not saying we're better players but we'v been in the grinder and now how to get the most out our units than other players imo... all adds up when you get buffs

 Roknar wrote:
Well, I would measure the legions on how well they do in a CAD, and DG and EC are waayyy up on that list.
WB are easily last as they get a buff that relies on an apostle still nobody wants to take and their relics are barely ok, to say nothing about posessed. the Crown is nice and the tome, everything is lack lustre. The script is kind of ok if you happen to have an HQ with no artefact left.
1 extra ML is 25 points which gives you 6 WC over the course of the game, this might just give you 1. Or bring daemon allies with brimstone horrors instead.
I don't really care about WT because they're even more random than psychic powers. Half the time I forget I have them.

So basically the only thing WB have going for them is a prince that can summon easier. The weapons are all worse than the black mace which they can still presumably take.
Until they get an update like exalted dark apostles and gal vorbak, they're really not that interesting.

Considering how CADs are nowadays usually regulated to providing a few obsec cappers in support of a Detachment of Formations, I consider measuring armies CAD-to-CAD to be a bit disingenuous. Saying relics like the Cursed Crozius are also bad is also somewhat iffy since models can only take one relic anyway, and getting an extra roll on Malefic is always nice. There's no reason one can't take both ML 3 and the extra D6 WC, and extra WC lets you front-load your Psychic phase. It's one reason Power Stones were so useful in WHFB; what's the point of generating 6 dice over six turns if you don't stop your foe from killing you on turn 2?

The Apostle is a trap and nobody is denying that, though you do get a few tricks with him; the Zealot Bubble in particular allows you to get de-facto Stealth on your Havocs as an example since they can Go to Ground then become Fearless. If you're feeling cheeky, a Warband champion has 2 boon rolls, pick one, rerollable...so if you really want to fish for a Prince...

...Back to reality, a Palanquin Sorcerer is arguably better than a Prince, due to being cheaper to get ML 3 for. Even with Perils, you get 4 wounds, and Perils costs you one wound at a time max. To actually explode, the odds are...1 in 1 in 72? Plus now that Nurgle gets some really nice powers, including a blessing of +1 Strength/Toughness, which can be reversed as a Malediction, and the ability to heal a model by D3 wounds...and of course he can hide in a unit of choice.

I don't rule out Warlord Traits that often. Alpha Legion has the most potential to do crazy things with their Warlord-jumping, though a lot of that is dependent on your opponent trying to kill said Warlord. Zahndrekh players can attest to how useful swapping traits can be, and you trade reliability (you are getting a reroll, but your opponent has to oblige in killing your Warlord. Bluff him?), for denying Slay the Warlord...tradeoffs.

Nurgle Bikers and Obliterators will be stupid good I can assure you. With large groups you had people comparing Icon MoS and just plain MoN, but now there's not even close to a competition.

Hell, they could be more durable than MoN Spawn for the price.

I love the idea of taking a minimum CAD of Iron Warrirors just to add Obsec Oblits to any list. I may even make some Daemon Oblit conversions to add to my Daemon army.

Here's a link to the spoiled pictures of the supplement. Actual rule wording will help. 20 marine exploding bolts are gone by the looks lol
https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/tags/traitor%20legions

One immediate view, as a Night Lords player, is that when Raptors become troops, they also become Obsec. This is huge for a lot of tournament games where my troops haven't been fast enough to contest that one objective on the far side of the table...

Any additional comments I'll save till I have the book in my hands, but I'm extremely excited about the fact my Night Lords are suddenly unique.

Only in a CAD or warband though.

 Roknar wrote:

Also ,on that note, it might be an idea to take a TAF from deathguard or EC with the Black Legion built around the key.
Shriekwave or bolts of vexation would both be good, not mention both DG and EC make the other termies fearless.

My experience with list building in 7th edition is limited.

It sounds like you are saying adding in Emperor's Children as allies to a Black Legion force would extend benefits associated with Emperor's Children to the main force.

Is this correct?

No, but they would still benefit from dimensional key for strategic placement turn two, and the terminators in that formations are all EC/DG, aka those termies are all fearless.
They would be outside of the speartip detachment, but that's fine since you wouldn't expect to bring them before turn 2 anyway.

So what non-vehicle, non-HQ units cannot become troops with the Legion rules? Just bikes?
It seems like the 4 Cult Marines, Oblits, Mulitators, Chosen, Possessed and Raptors all have a Legion that makes them Troops.

-

and havoks, warp talons

Just looked at the IW 2+ exoskeleton, a daemon prince may take it oO Hello 2+ re-rollable itwnd prince of tzeetnch. Suck it TSons! Oh AND fnp6+ for being IW XD
The cranium got a lot better too. It's actually the bearer's shooting phase so you can dictate where it hits.

 Roknar wrote:
Just looked at the IW 2+ exoskeleton, a daemon prince may take it oO Hello 2+ re-rollable itwnd prince of tzeetnch. Suck it TSons! Oh AND fnp6+ for being IW XD

O.o

So, DP with that upgrade and 2+ units of Oblits as Troops? Iron within, Iron without indeed!

Hmm the Talons of the night terror got a lot worse. They're not a melee weapon? Seems to be a slightly better combat familiar? Although it does combo with Infernal claws.
A prince can get their 2+ armour too. That's...brutal. That basically means any NL prince has shrouded.

GAAAADDD the Drakescale Plate is So DUMB


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And not impressed with Blade of the hydra, except on a DP I guess


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Hyrda's teeth compares very favourably to the bolts of extatic vexation

Maybe something along the lines of Black Legion with Raptors Talon and then a small Death Guard Terminator Anihilation Force? Or is that far too big?

 Roknar wrote:
No, but they would still benefit from dimensional key for strategic placement turn two, and the terminators in that formations are all EC/DG, aka those termies are all fearless.
They would be outside of the speartip detachment, but that's fine since you wouldn't expect to bring them before turn 2 anyway.

Yeah, that's just a lot of Terminators. The Speartip detachment already calls for a bunch, especially if you take Abaddon and his upgraded Terminators.

Have been thinking about how to get ECs and Black Legion to play together as nice as possible. The Speartip is great for wiping out HQs and tying up opponents on their half of the table. The Kakophoni is great for tearing up whatever makes it through. Making it all fit in a list is... hard.

So I realized something stupid. This isn't for a serious game but can be funny nonetheless.

Maulerfiends are Daemons, as are Defilers.

A Warpack lets you nominate one vehicle as an Alpha, giving it the (Character) subtype.

One of the Word Bearer Warlord Traits is +1 Mastery Level.

If you're lucky, you could get a Defiler or Maulerfiend that can summon on a 3+, and only Perils on a 6. The other benefits are more situational but there's simply something funny about that.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
So I realized something stupid. This isn't for a serious game but can be funny nonetheless.

Maulerfiends are Daemons, as are Defilers.

A Warpack lets you nominate one vehicle as an Alpha, giving it the (Character) subtype.

One of the Word Bearer Warlord Traits is +1 Mastery Level.

If you're lucky, you could get a Defiler or Maulerfiend that can summon on a 3+, and only Perils on a 6. The other benefits are more situational but there's simply something funny about that.

This would actually be really awesome to do! I will try that at least a few games, see if it actually pans out into something usefull

Just re-doing my WE lists and hit on a weird idea

What do you guys think of a lord wiht Tali of burning blood running with a large unit of termies!

hear me out!

Get your formation 2d6 move
Then you are walking 9"
Running d6+3
Charging 2d6+3

Factor in the termies are now fearless, admantium will and furious charge! sprinkle a couple of chainfists in there (4 s9 armourbane!) and i think it might actually work? obviously you taken then in a CWB so they are obsec!

You then have the option to buy a LR transport too which you can palm off to another unit (i know they cant get in in deployment) that LR is also obsec

 Latro_ wrote:
Just re-doing my WE lists and hit on a weird idea

What do you guys think of a lord wiht Tali of burning blood running with a large unit of termies!

hear me out!

Get your formation 2d6 move
Then you are walking 9"
Running d6+3
Charging 2d6+3

Factor in the termies are now fearless, admantium will and furious charge! sprinkle a couple of chainfists in there and i think it might actually work? obviously you taken then in a CWB so they are obsec!

You then have the option to buy a LR transport too which you can palm off to another unit (i know they cant get in in deployment) that LR is also obsec

Might as well keep them in the Land Raider to ensure they make it to their target. After battle is joined across the field they won't need the metal bawks and should be able to move around easier.

yea but i'm thinking a unit of 8-10 deathstar styley, its an average 26" FT charge range!

plus they are so fast it frees up the LR to trasnport more squisy stuff like wannabe berzerkers

I'm seriously considering a Maelstrom of Gore in place of the Warband, mostly because I don't have termies or havocs. MoG is cheaper and does a lot for the Zerkers on top of the other army benefits. It also leaves enough room for a Gorepack to screen for the Zerkers.


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 Latro_ wrote:
yea but i'm thinking a unit of 8-10 deathstar styley

plus they are so fast it frees up the LR to trasnport more squisy stuff like wannabe berzerkers

They may be fast but massed fire will still bring them all down, especially if you are marching them up the field turn one. WE seem more like an MSU army than a deathstar army. DG might be where you'd get away with large groups like that.

I;'m seriously looking at maelstrom of gore + Talisman of burning blood + Blood mad + Astral grimoire + mindveil.

Overclocked bezerkers. SO dumb. But so fast.

What do you guys think is the easiest way to take Magnus?

I'm thinking I'm going to do a World Eaters detachment with Magnus and the jump relic to pretty much guarantee that one unit gets a turn 1 charge.

Also I think I'm going to bring the omniscient oracles formation.

Point being, I just want a minimum number of points invested in magnus (and a squad that can give a 12" move to Kharn and friends). I think it has to be a TS detachment to get that relic, and I'm thinking a generic CAD with a lord/sorceror, 2 troops and magnus is the cheapest way to do it. Maybe even rubrics for added oomph.

Can anyone do better? Looking to make the list decently competitive and again, the least number of points possible (so tbh I might just do cultists as the troops) but I'm mostly seeing if I can do less than a CAD for points.


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Captyn_Bob wrote:
I;'m seriously looking at maelstrom of gore + Talisman of burning blood + Blood mad + Astral grimoire + mindveil.

Overclocked bezerkers. SO dumb. But so fast.

Yes. My thoughts exactly. Kharn and friends. Although I won't use mindveil. I think that could slow them down. Looking for reliability.

You can get a more efficient Astral Grimoire using the traitors hate formations with a warpsmith, as you can take good stuff and not cultists. Not that warpsmiths are good, but they aren't Terrible.
But not Magnus, a Cad is surely the easiest way to get Magnus.

Just MoG + Tali isnt all that bad

Its just one of the units obviously but..
2d6 before the game
9" move
2d6 + 3 + 3 charge with a re-roll for fleet

max 39" first turn charge XD
MIN 19"!!!
Average is what 29" before you even factor in fleet re-rolls

 Roknar wrote:
Just looked at the IW 2+ exoskeleton, a daemon prince may take it oO Hello 2+ re-rollable itwnd prince of tzeetnch. Suck it TSons! Oh AND fnp6+ for being IW XD

TS Daemon Princes casting Empyric Shield get to 2++ rerollable. Love, the Thousand Sons