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This is the old list I was running with Black Crusade before Wrath of Magnus came out. Not crazy but "enough" to deal with most stuff by running my Lord solo, and summoning stuff. That said, I'm looking to update it. I'm thinking of using Word Bearers for them, specifically because it lets me keep mass ObSec, and mix-and-match Marks.

++Black Crusade [Primary]++ 

+Chaos Warband+ 
Chaos Lord of Tzeentch on Disc w/ Power Fist and Lighting Claw, Spell Familiar, Scrolls of Magnus & Sigil of Corruption: 235 [Warlord] 

Bike Sorcerer Sorcerer w/ ML 3 & Last Memory, Bolt Pistol & Force Axe, and Spell Familiar - 145 

5 Chaos Space Marines w/ Bolters, Meltagun, and Champion w/ Combi-Melta - 95 
-Rhino w/ Dirge Caster and Dozer Blade - 45
5 Chaos Space Marines w/ Bolters, Meltagun, and Champion w/ Combi-Melta - 95 
-Rhino w/ Dirge Caster and Dozer Blade - 45

3 Chaos Terminators w/ Power Axe/Combi-Plasma - 112
3 Chaos Terminators w/ Power Axe/Combi-Plasma - 112

3 Chaos Bikers of Slaanesh w/ 2 Bike-Mounted Meltaguns, Champion w/ Power Lance - 111
3 Chaos Bikers of Slaanesh w/ 2 Bike-Mounted Meltaguns, Champion w/ Power Lance - 111

Helbrute w/ Power Fist & Multimelta - 100
Helbrute w/ Power Fist & Multimelta - 100

+Spawn Auxiliary+ 
2 Spawn - 60 
2 Spawn - 60 

++Daemons CAD++ 
+HQ+ 
Disc Herald of Tzeentch w/ ML 2, Paradox, and Exalted Locus of Conjuration - 145 
The Blue Scribes - 81 

+Troops+ 
11 Horrors of Tzeentch - 99
11 Horrors of Tzeentch - 99

Total: 1850 

The updated Horrors mean where I previously had 3 units witj access to Summoning, I now have 1, 2 if I use my Sorcerer. That said, I have 88 points to play with if I downgrade the Horrors to Blue Horrors, 148 if I decide to drop the Scrolls of Magnus (they are a fun toy, but an expensive one). The question then becomes: What to take?

If I have 88 points, 45 points let my Sorcerer swap out his Bike for Mark of Nurgle, a Palanquin, and the Artifact to let him know an a Malefic power. That leaves 43 points. 16 could go to Marking one of the Spawn units so he's in good company, and that leaves 27 points, which is...awkward. 25 points gives another ML back to the Herald, leaving me at 2 points which is ever-so-awkward, and makes me then ask if there are other areas I can clean up instead?

I can always sacrifice a Mastery Level to replace one Blue Horror unit with Brimstones, giving 52 points to work with instead. Or downgrade the Spawn to solos, and move the 2nd Helbrute to a Helcult, so I have two units of Fearless Cultists...

Help?

trindaros wrote:
thanks to the core codex CSM still suffer from bad points cost balance. GW seems to be under the impression that giving free VotLW would be enough (it's not even close). Even giving marks for free wouldn't help all that much, as legions that can't take them are left behind such as night lords, iron warriors and alpha legion (iron warriors to a lesser extent).

It would have been interesting if the reduced the total points cost of a detachment by a percentage based on the amount of units and/or size of them. This would differentiate us from gladius marines and give us some flexibility, as CSM are not as rigid in their army structure as normal marines.

Something like "every unit in this detachment reduces the total points cost of this detachment by 2% (just guesswork atm), every time a unit is doubled in size (by buying more bodies) it adds another 2% reduction. All points reductions are cumulative, no more than 25% of total cost reduction can be achived".

Did you even read the rules leaks or did you come just to complain for the sake of complaining?

.then declare the cultists as alpha legion, so they can infiltrate

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Did you even read the rules leaks or did you come just to complain for the sake of complaining?

I did read the rules and no, I'm no here to complain.

Pointing out a weakness within our own codex isn't a bad thing to say, as every list made with it will have to work around it. I only posted the suggested fix (as unrealistic as it is) for fun.

That's more for Proposed Rules though.

I imagine another thing that could be neat for the vanilla Chaos Warband is...if you take the maximum number of choices available to it, all Characters in that Formation may take their upgrades for free. It's not "free transports" good like the Gladius, but it emphasizes the hero-hammer aspect of Favored Scions. The only real nightmare would be all the Boons of Mutation to keep track of initially! (Now, making Boons selectable at army creation would have been so much better too...)

Ok I think I may have worked out the 'Zerkerstar. It wont work below 1850pts I don't think but fortunately most tournaments are 1850pts .
I am really hoping this will be a) legal and b) a proper deathstar!

+++ World Eaters Detachment +++

Command:
105pts - Chaos Lord with Gorefather and Mark of Khorne.
100pts - Chaos Lord with Talisman and Mark of Khorne.

Core:
Maelstrom of Gore:
160pts - Kharn the Betrayer
295pts - 15 x Bezerkers
105pts - 5x Bezerkers
105pts - 5x Bezerkers
105 - 5x Bezerkers

Auxiliary;
32pts - Chaos Spawn with Mark of Khorne

+++ Thousand Sons Detachment +++

Core
War Cabal:
130pts - Lvl 2 Sorcerer: Astral Grimoire, Force Staff and Spell Familiar
300 pts - 3x Lvl 2 Sorcerer: Force Staff, Spell Familiar
150 pts - 5 xRubric Marines.
157pts ??? - Scarab Occult Terminators.

Auxiliary
34pts - Spawn with MoT

That comes to 1778pts. I have left some over because I don't know the proper price for SO termies and for extra war gear.

To make the list 1750 all one would have to do is drop either a couple of 'Zerkers or the Spell Familiars, which may not be needed if the Coven is certain casting power on a 3+.

Thoughts?

trindaros wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Did you even read the rules leaks or did you come just to complain for the sake of complaining?

I did read the rules and no, I'm no here to complain.

Pointing out a weakness within our own codex isn't a bad thing to say, as every list made with it will have to work around it. I only posted the suggested fix (as unrealistic as it is) for fun.

Now, for 15pts a model my Khorne CSM has:
Rage, Furious Charge, Counter Attack, Fearless and Hatred (space marines)

Now for 16pts a model my Nurgle CSM has:
T5, Fearless, Relentless, Feel No Pain, and Hatred (space marines)

I know they are the 'best' example but for me that is border-line a bit too cheap!

Nothing stopping you picking which legion rule set you like wither even if your army is painted whatever colour! the level of choice on offer now is amazing, i'v barely seen any CSM players complaining and we are a fickle bunch

Cut the Gorefather Lord, and get the zerkers up to max .

Scarabs start at 250 , you will struggle to fit a war cabal.

trindaros wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Did you even read the rules leaks or did you come just to complain for the sake of complaining?

I did read the rules and no, I'm no here to complain.

Pointing out a weakness within our own codex isn't a bad thing to say, as every list made with it will have to work around it. I only posted the suggested fix (as unrealistic as it is) for fun.

The weaknesses were fixed when VotLW became free on everyone and those models got bonus rules on top of that.

Something I posted in the WB thread, but could make WB a bit more apealing for a deathstar of sorts, as they can also take marks

An interesting build would be a DP, +3 WC and the Malefic tome combined with raptor talon using cursed earth.

The +1 invul may no be that interesting, but letting them not scatter is awesome, combined with reroll charge (as the pack has no been used in the movment phase). Giving the warp talons MoS seems very pricey, but it woud make it perfect for marine murder.

Cursed earth would also be fun with a hellforged warpack to buff maulerfiends a bit, and buff the IC to 3++.

Making the DP the warlord can potentially give him antoher WC or help buff the warp talons even more

They might not be Battle Company or Eldar level, but I don't think that is a bad thing for the game. Allot of the CSM legion decurions seem on par with non battle company marine decurions, if not better in some cases.

Seems like GW gave them some love, now just update the line of models please and a new CSM codex in 8th.

Edit: I also really like, that in most legions, your base CSM now, craps all over a non Grav wielding tactical marine, whilst not overly expensive in comparison.

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:
Is it possible to make a 'Zerkerstar now?

I am thinking 20 Zerkers with Kharn with 1 Chaos lord with the Gorefarther and Talisman. Ally in 1ksons Cyclopia Cabal and give each sorcerer a power fist and fish for invis and 1 of them the Astral Grimoire.

This should all be possible in just 2 sources right? 1x WE warband or CAD and 1x 1kSons Cabal.

I know its not fluffy, but if this is a legal list I can see this being the new big tournament invis deathstar and it might make CSM very tournament competitive again

Cyclopia cabal is black legion only so I am pretty sure you can't get the grimoire that way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

trindaros wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Did you even read the rules leaks or did you come just to complain for the sake of complaining?

I did read the rules and no, I'm no here to complain.

Pointing out a weakness within our own codex isn't a bad thing to say, as every list made with it will have to work around it. I only posted the suggested fix (as unrealistic as it is) for fun.

The weaknesses were fixed when VotLW became free on everyone and those models got bonus rules on top of that.

Not entirely. I'll pull a card from your play book and ask you when the last time you actually ran a chaos army was? Sure free Vets and a few new rules is a big step in the right direction but several things remain severely outta wack point wise. For example, the fething Icon of vengeance is a 25 fething point upgrade! Or the fact that chaos still MUST pay the champion tax, meaning even in a perfect world where point costs mirrored loyalist marines in perfect parity, chaos would still always run less efficient lists since your paying 10 points per unit more, pair that with the fact that MSU is the best way to play the game and the worst way to run sergeants and the costs mount. Look at the chaos warband as an example if we were to field a min warband of:

1 lord
1 chosen/termi
2 CSM *
1 raptor *
1 Havoc (hellbrutes still blow) *

The units marked (*) all have a 10 point forced upgrade, that's 40 wasted points compared to other factions. It's simply bad design.

then we have the flaws between unit pricing, now cult marines are flat out worse then marked CSM in nearly every instance.

Berzerker 19 ppm compared to marked CSM at 15ppm or whats even more embarassing is a bike at 22ppm or a raptor at 19ppm
Plague marine 24 ppm compared to marked CSM at 16ppm That's 8 fething ppm for defensive grenades and a plague knife! Oh and btw a nurgle biker 26ppm! or again a raptor 20ppm!!!!! thats 4ppm cheaper, still have access to 2 specials per 5 and they move 12" a turn and have deepstrike.
Noise marine 17ppm, marked CSM 15ppm

it's a complete mess. So he isn't wrong when he points out the issues that remain. Chaos got a major buff for sure and this is a great advance, but don't fool yourself into thinking the CSM codex doesn't need a complete overhaul. I mean, why could you play night lords when you can just take a death guard or khorne raptor talon and all those raptors are fearless and incredibly more durable or killy respectively? Hell, the death guard raptors even get stealth outside 18"

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:
Is it possible to make a 'Zerkerstar now?

I am thinking 20 Zerkers with Kharn with 1 Chaos lord with the Gorefarther and Talisman. Ally in 1ksons Cyclopia Cabal and give each sorcerer a power fist and fish for invis and 1 of them the Astral Grimoire.

This should all be possible in just 2 sources right? 1x WE warband or CAD and 1x 1kSons Cabal.

I know its not fluffy, but if this is a legal list I can see this being the new big tournament invis deathstar and it might make CSM very tournament competitive again

Is there any reason to try and do this over just using a Gorepack + Cabal? It really feels like you're trying to fit a round object through a square hole with all these "zerkerstars". You're paying a premium for a subpar blob and losing anything WE in an effort to boost the Cabal.

The artefacts seem like you lose quite a bit. My Night Lords specifically can only have 1 item per model, and cannot combine the artefacts from CSM with any of the NL artefacts.

So can Legion characters be marked? Units can't, but can my chaos Lord get the mark of I Khorne within a NL list? I feel like powerhouse character just got massively nerfed. Am I misreading this?

 Kajaki War Pig wrote:
My Night Lords specifically can only have 1 item per model, and cannot combine the artefacts from CSM with any of the NL artefacts.

No Codex allows 1 model to have more than 1 relic/artifact. This is reinforced by the recent BRB FAQ

 Kajaki War Pig wrote:

So can Legion characters be marked? Units can't, but can my chaos Lord get the mark of I Khorne within a NL list? I feel like powerhouse character just got massively nerfed. Am I misreading this?

That depends on the Legion. Black Legion allows Marks, but Iron Warrirors does not, while Thousand Sons only allows, nah requires Mark of Tzeentch.
Night Lords do not allow Marks on any units. A Chaos Lord is a unit, therefore no Mark for him

-

Daemon princes still have to be aligned to a god, in all cases

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Daemon princes still have to be aligned to a god, in all cases

Right, and this is where I begin to wonder if that means IC's within those more restrictive legions are still allowed to take marks.... maybe once I have the book this will be more clear. The loss of Demon weapons to a lord makes him a lot less nasty.

I'm not sure what your expectations of Traitor Legions are. Most of it was spoiled, including pictures.
Most if not all Legions have daemon weapons of their own and you can still use the normal ones. Of which only the axe of blind fury requires a mark. All Legions can take princes, not all legions can take marks or are forced into one mark.

I mean it has already greatly exceeded my expectations, I was just observing that since Daemon weapons are one of the biggest buffs for Chaos lords attack power, the mark thing reduces NL to only 1 demon weapon (black mace). Certainly not crippling, just a tactical observation.

Makes me have to rethink how to play out my warlord in a raptor squad. Or if taking a lord in the squad is even the ideal option now

Night lord relics seems oddly geared towards daemon princes, I'll give you that.

I'm currently testing alpha legion warband + latd in 1k. Rolled the furious charge and 6+++ for cultists warlord trait lol. So far it seems...interesting.

Am I reading the Stormbolt Plate artifact correctly? 20pts of a 2+ armour AND 2+ Jink on a DP??? Why would you not take this on a Tzeentch Prince?

Yep, they buffed dp significantly with those artifacts.

Btw, finished a game of alpha dudes vs mantis warriors + ig. It was a pretty casual list and cultists held great. Need to see how they perform vs harder foes. Will play on sunday at a local club vs libconclave + sisters of silence and custodes with invis and flying ruins like usual.

I'm thinking of word bringers and they seem pretty unfocused. Cause on one hand you want a warband to get 4 boon rolls (probably with re-rolls from apostles) a turn. On the other hand you want dps for summoning. And than you want a bunch of warpcharges to actually summon something. Warband + apostles + daemon princes + daemon allies for warpcharges...and than you lack punch, really. But at least you score like a boss with everything being crusader for better runs and zealot.

 Galef wrote:
Am I reading the Stormbolt Plate artifact correctly? 20pts of a 2+ armour AND 2+ Jink on a DP??? Why would you not take this on a Tzeentch Prince?

Doesn't DoT only reroll 1's of Invulnerable Saves?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Am I reading the Stormbolt Plate artifact correctly? 20pts of a 2+ armour AND 2+ Jink on a DP??? Why would you not take this on a Tzeentch Prince?

Doesn't DoT only reroll 1's of Invulnerable Saves?

all the saves. You get your very own pet ravenwing dp that's only afraid of tau and ignore cover grav. Well, and ap2 melee but you can afford to avoid it for some time.

 koooaei wrote:
Yep, they buffed dp significantly with those artifacts.

Btw, finished a game of alpha dudes vs mantis warriors + ig. It was a pretty casual list and cultists held great. Need to see how they perform vs harder foes. Will play on sunday at a local club vs libconclave + sisters of silence and custodes with invis and flying ruins like usual.

I'm thinking of word bringers and they seem pretty unfocused. Cause on one hand you want a warband to get 4 boon rolls (probably with re-rolls from apostles) a turn. On the other hand you want dps for summoning. And than you want a bunch of warpcharges to actually summon something. Warband + apostles + daemon princes + daemon allies for warpcharges...and than you lack punch, really. But at least you score like a boss with everything being crusader for better runs and zealot.

To be fair, Mantis Warriors are super out of date and you shouldn't use that as a benchmark.

you're never happy. If i win eldar you'll say that eldar was garbage

 Galef wrote:
Am I reading the Stormbolt Plate artifact correctly? 20pts of a 2+ armour AND 2+ Jink on a DP??? Why would you not take this on a Tzeentch Prince?

Main reason it's a choice is the armour uses up his artefact allowance so he won't be able to take a good weapon

 Latro_ wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Am I reading the Stormbolt Plate artifact correctly? 20pts of a 2+ armour AND 2+ Jink on a DP??? Why would you not take this on a Tzeentch Prince?

Main reason it's a choice is the armour uses up his artefact allowance so he won't be able to take a good weapon

DPs are str6 MCs. Their innate starting attack are better than most IC's with special artifact weapons.

 Red Corsair wrote:


Berzerker 19 ppm compared to marked CSM at 15ppm or whats even more embarassing is a bike at 22ppm or a raptor at 19ppm
Plague marine 24 ppm compared to marked CSM at 16ppm That's 8 fething ppm for defensive grenades and a plague knife! Oh and btw a nurgle biker 26ppm! or again a raptor 20ppm!!!!! thats 4ppm cheaper, still have access to 2 specials per 5 and they move 12" a turn and have deepstrike.
Noise marine 17ppm, marked CSM 15ppm

Noise Marines at least get unique weapons that still gives them a tactical niche unlike berserkers and Plague marines who are just outright inferior to basic chaos marines of there legion.

I'm actually going to try going all in on the Kakophoni formation shredding sonic blasters also aren't that bad mathematically the strength 4 version with shred is better at killing most targets than a heavy bolter/equivalent, while the strength 5 version is superior to a scatter laser vs everything with a toughness value (except things with toughness 10 since the blasters can't harm them) (Bare in mind i'm not a tournament gamer so I probably have a lower standard of good than some of you)