Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Here I go again with the WE vs GK battles. Two fights, one win and one lose. The game I lost was over at the bottom of turn two due to my DP warlord killing himself with the glaive and my other lords and bikes and everything getting cleansing flamed off the table. The game I won, I killed two of his three dreadknights at the top of turn one, he then proceeded to cleansing flame the everloving hell out of me but failed to remove any lords, then killed a lord in close combat (talisman termie lord). He then conceded at the top of turn two because I was going to wipe out every remaining unit on the table (his warlord unit gate of infinity mishaped into reserves).
The more aggressive I make the WE, the stronger they seem to get. Bikes never seem to make their points back for me, but maybe that's because I play on a very ruinless battlefield so they're always taking direct fire to the face. They're also my first wave, and they barely do that well with their meltaguns as most bawkses are behind bodies or too far for turn one fire. They crumble under sustained fire way too much. I guess they pull fire from the lords and DP but they're way too expensive just to do that. IDK maybe I've just been having terrible luck with them lately, in KDK Gorepack they always seemed to do fine.
The problem with using the Daemon Prince as a summoner is that it's incredibly expensive point-wise and the Prince itself is fragile! The cheapest summon prince is going to be 205 points, and that's before you give it Wings or a Spell Familiar! An ML 3 Prince of Nurgle with Wings and ML 3 is 290 points, or 10 points less than Fateweaver! For the same cost as 2 such Daemon Princes, you can easily ally in Omniscient Oracles.
I still prefer the Palanquin Sorcerer, especially in the Grand Host, as you still get 4 wounds (so you don't care so much about mishaps), you can hide in a unit of Cultists, and even with ML 3 and a Familiar, you're still 50 points cheaper than an unupgraded Lord of Change.
I'm also going to test out this Death Guard list. My only fear is Demi-Company, as that is way too many Rhinos or Razorbacks. Otherwise, I'm pretty content with the list construction.
CAD - Death Guard
x1 Chaos Lord
. MoN, Bike, Power Fist and Lightning Claw, Sigil, Melta Bombs, Blight Grenades, Gift Of Mutation, ICHOR BLOOD!!!
Terminator Annihilation Force - Death Guard
x1 Chaos Lord
. Chainfist, Brand, MoN, Sigil, Gift Of Mutation, Blight Grenades
x3 Terminators
. 3 Combi-Plasma, 3 Power Axes
x3 Terminators
. 3 Combi-Plasma, 3 Power Axes
x3 Terminators
. 3 Combi-Plasma, 3 Power Axes
So I already figured we cannot win the objective game against most lists for the most part, so I decided to focus more on the newfound durability of Death Guard in the form of the two formations. All that needs to happen is for 4 things on the field to live until T2 (which will happen), and then threats will drop down out of nowhere. It would sorta play how a Black Legion force might, except that Death Guard are better because of Fearless and FNP on everything.
Obviously as a first draft I'd love criticisms or adjustments. The Terminators are probably the weakest part but they aren't exactly a tax in any manner, and having tested a Brand on a Lord in this manner before it can be pretty brutal.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: To be fair, KDK Bikers in the Pack get a lot more bonuses. However, that 3d6 move is super sweet.
Have you thought about using Raptors instead and just keeping your bikers as KDK in a Pack?
Maybe, Jump Pack's are more World Eatery than Bikes. And a Gorepack with MSU Hounds to soak up the turn one fire is interesting, but expensive. It may also get in the way of my turn one charges if I don't position correctly.
koooaei wrote:Btw, can you confirm that havoc launcher is s5 now? Does it still cost 12 pts?
Havok launchers have always been the same, there have been no changes. Str 5 ap 5 small blast twin linked for 12 points.
koooaei wrote:iirc they can't nova out of vehicles now - got to get out. So, lure them in with a couple sacrificial units and than finish them off. Also, does kharn get auto-deny now? 2+ and adamantium will?
Even w/o adwill you could deny 1-2 novas by simply sticking kharn a bit forward and remembering kharn's 2+ deny the witches.
You can certainly cast novas out of a vehicle, witchfires are the only thing you can cast out of a transport. What he couldn't have been doing was casting out of a razorback or land raider since neither of them have fire points like a rhino does.
Kharn's wording is that he and his unit always deny on a 2+. This doesn't mean you get to add modifiers to it since it states that he always denies on a 2+, not that his deny roll is boosted by 4 (from 6+ like everyone else to a 2+). Kharn however is ideal for denying novas since you can pick any unit that was affected by the nova to deny.
As an aside, I really, really hate cleansing flame. 2d6 ignores cover heavy bolter hits in a 9" radius is brutal.
As a second aside, GK units don't really care about perils since as BoP's they simply take a single casualty and keep on trucking which is something you can definately afford to do when you're only 20 odd points a model like purifiers, so the addition of karanak isn't really that great (though handing out scout to something like bloodcrushers is pretty handy, doubly so if you want to DS stuff in off the 'crushers banner).
Edit:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm also going to test out this Death Guard list. My only fear is Demi-Company, as that is way too many Rhinos or Razorbacks. Otherwise, I'm pretty content with the list construction.
CAD - Death Guard
x1 Chaos Lord
. MoN, Bike, Power Fist and Lightning Claw, Sigil, Melta Bombs, Blight Grenades, Gift Of Mutation, ICHOR BLOOD!!!
Terminator Annihilation Force - Death Guard
x1 Chaos Lord
. Chainfist, Brand, MoN, Sigil, Gift Of Mutation, Blight Grenades
x3 Terminators
. 3 Combi-Plasma, 3 Power Axes
x3 Terminators
. 3 Combi-Plasma, 3 Power Axes
x3 Terminators
. 3 Combi-Plasma, 3 Power Axes
So I already figured we cannot win the objective game against most lists for the most part, so I decided to focus more on the newfound durability of Death Guard in the form of the two formations. All that needs to happen is for 4 things on the field to live until T2 (which will happen), and then threats will drop down out of nowhere. It would sorta play how a Black Legion force might, except that Death Guard are better because of Fearless and FNP on everything.
Obviously as a first draft I'd love criticisms or adjustments. The Terminators are probably the weakest part but they aren't exactly a tax in any manner, and having tested a Brand on a Lord in this manner before it can be pretty brutal.
I like it but if I may offer one suggestion? Changing the Plague marines to 5x MoN marines with a rhino, 1 melta and a combi on the sarge saves you 40 points a squad. You're probably only going to get 1 shot at melta range anyway and you can only fire 2 guys out the top hatch. Those points could make a nice 3 man nurgle double melta biker escort for your biker lord (or 3x MoN Spawn if that's what you're after).
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/01/03 06:03:04
Peregrine wrote: What, you don't like rolling dice to see how many dice you roll? Why are you such an anti-dice bigot?
The main rulebook FaQ update made it so only normal Witchfires can be fired from transports.
Novas, Focused Witchfires and Beams can't now.
"Q: Can you cast blessings, maledictions and nova powers from Open-topped vehicles? A: Transported units can only use witchfire powers – and may not use beam, focussed witchfire or nova powers."
My suggestion of Karanak was more just anti-Psyker in general. Even then the Pruifiers could roll the result that drains Warp Charges or causes them to forget a power (hopefully Cleansing Flame of course).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/03 06:49:35
To be fair, I doubt slayer is expecting those Rhinos to live long, so no need to worry about the limited firing points on a transport. My experience with Melta is, you want lots of it as a single shot weapon. Not sure of the pts efficiency of normal marked marines vs plague marines, except I know the latter gets access to two special weapons at base, rather then 10 marines.
I can't comment too much on list design with chaos, it should do well vs most run of the mill lists, lacks bodies perhaps.
In regards to WE unit sizes, I was thinking 10 men units, gets you access to two special weapons and reduces the champion tax. On the other hand, MSU gets more rolls on the pre-game moves, so it is a trade off.
I'm planning on taking one twenty CSM unit, with a lord+ talisman of blood. Only time I can think that I'd go that route. Big units of footsloggers aren't the best thing going in 40k at the moment!
The lost and damned detachment as an auxiliary for WE butcherhorde, yay or nay? The MOK on Cultists is expensive and dark Apostle meh as a tax, but the pre game move at least gives them a boost in mobility and if they do get into combat, they aren't terrible vs MSU units.
So I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet but have people realized that if they take an IW Strongholds of Chaos formation they can take up to 9 munitorum container cashes which each have a chance to get orbital strike, plus build your own castle.
Bryan01 wrote: To be fair, I doubt slayer is expecting those Rhinos to live long, so no need to worry about the limited firing points on a transport. My experience with Melta is, you want lots of it as a single shot weapon. Not sure of the pts efficiency of normal marked marines vs plague marines, except I know the latter gets access to two special weapons at base, rather then 10 marines.
I can't comment too much on list design with chaos, it should do well vs most run of the mill lists, lacks bodies perhaps.
In regards to WE unit sizes, I was thinking 10 men units, gets you access to two special weapons and reduces the champion tax. On the other hand, MSU gets more rolls on the pre-game moves, so it is a trade off.
I'm planning on taking one twenty CSM unit, with a lord+ talisman of blood. Only time I can think that I'd go that route. Big units of footsloggers aren't the best thing going in 40k at the moment!
The lost and damned detachment as an auxiliary for WE butcherhorde, yay or nay? The MOK on Cultists is expensive and dark Apostle meh as a tax, but the pre game move at least gives them a boost in mobility and if they do get into combat, they aren't terrible vs MSU units.
If you want more Bolters, regular Marines are better. If you're just trying to cram in special weapons like I am, Plague Marines are better.
For comparison, the Plague Marine loadout you see in the list is 185 points, whereas 10 Marines doing the same thing is 235. 50 points gives you more bodies, but at the same time it IS 50 extra points that can go elsewhere.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
If you could make it a warband they would have objective secured and you'd get the added durability of improved cover saves and FNP for your entire army. The points would have to be played with a bit though. You'd end up with more melta shots if you did both chosen and havocs with melta guns on top of the csm with melta guns.
Edit: I'd probably cut the terminator annihilation force and just take terminator slots in the warband if you want them. You can still bring the terminator lord if you want by adding one of the command slots but you'd have more flexibility in your list and I think I like obj sec terminators more than terminators that shoot their combis in the movement phase instead of the shooting phase. The only place I see that helping a lot is against interceptor.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/03 17:49:17
Drasius wrote: In that case may I suggest replacing the 3rd PM squad with chosen? 180 points gets you 4 meltas, MoN in a rhino and an extra attack.
Chosen definitely win over Plague Marines in that contest, but they aren't troops.
Like lesthanjeff said, you should look into either a warband or a plague colony. You seem to have the models for either.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bryan01 wrote: In regards to WE unit sizes, I was thinking 10 men units, gets you access to two special weapons and reduces the champion tax. On the other hand, MSU gets more rolls on the pre-game moves, so it is a trade off.
I'm planning on taking one twenty CSM unit, with a lord+ talisman of blood. Only time I can think that I'd go that route. Big units of footsloggers aren't the best thing going in 40k at the moment!
The lost and damned detachment as an auxiliary for WE butcherhorde, yay or nay? The MOK on Cultists is expensive and dark Apostle meh as a tax, but the pre game move at least gives them a boost in mobility and if they do get into combat, they aren't terrible vs MSU units.
I find my 5 man CSM units are threatening but mostly just there to stick on mid-field objectives and fire a melta off every so often. 10 of them might be more powerful and act as a second wave, and 20 with the talisman just seems unwieldy. The talisman will allow them to get into combat quickly but so many will clog up one side of your board. You need room for your other units as well.
I feel like adding more MSUCSM is better than adding four units of cultists for WE. The cultists aren't fearless, aren't objective secured (in the butcherhorde), and the formation is way too expensive for WE (four units of cultists is way too many, two would be more than enough).
I keep looking at the Aux formations hoping to see something helpful to WE but I keep falling back on boosting the Warband to huge levels because it gives more flexibility. Spawn also rule for WE since they escort your turn one assaulty lords like no tomorrow.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/03 18:27:52
I was thinking 20 men, maximizes the Talisman, you probably stick that unit in the middle during deployment. The cultists get zealot if within six of dark apostle, but that clumps them up. On the other hand, a few 70 point units for sticking on objectives isn't terrible, lacking objective secure sucks though. I haven't played CSM since 3rd ed, so I can't comment too much really.
Over the holidays, I play tested Black Legion and Death Guard lists to understand how they worked on the tabletop.
Played against Eldar in friendly games. Opponent brought a semi-competitive list that included a Farseer, 2 squads of Scatterbikes and 2 Wraithguard squads along with walkers and infantry units, but no big vehicles.
Vs. Black Legion, I brought a deep strike list built around Abaddon, the Bringers of Despair and 2 Cyclopia Cabals. Other units included raptors, terminators, CSMs and bikes. I went second.
The BoD and both Cabals came in on the first turn. Out of 9 squads that could deep strike, only 3 arrived. The Sorcerers got off Shroud of Deceit on the Scatterbikes, which shot each other up, while the BoD took out the Farseer with TL bolters. The next turn, they took a lot of shots.
Lesson learned was to roll for all reserve squads before placing the Warlord. Having to wait to assault is not a great thing when he stands in the middle of the entire enemy army. One good thing is Abaddon is he is still Abaddon and wrecks a lot of things once he does get into cc.
vs. Death Guard, my list consisted of a CL, Plague Marines, Chosen, Havocs, Bikes and a Terminator Annihilation force, playing against the same Eldar list.
The game went 4 rounds before we ended it. Both of us were frustrated because no one was destroying anything. Throughout the game, we missed maybe 30 saving throws total, all from shooting.
Lesson learned: it takes a lot of shots to kill Plague Marines.
Bryan01 wrote: I was thinking 20 men, maximizes the Talisman, you probably stick that unit in the middle during deployment. The cultists get zealot if within six of dark apostle, but that clumps them up. On the other hand, a few 70 point units for sticking on objectives isn't terrible, lacking objective secure sucks though. I haven't played CSM since 3rd ed, so I can't comment too much really.
I've been taking Rhinos with my CSM units and leaving them on objectives while the army surges forward. The Rhinos get objective secured and you do not need to deploy inside them. 35 points with objective secured beats 70 points without it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/03 21:46:00
True enough, I can see the logic of saving points by taking spawn as the aux and investing into the Warband itself. List kinda looks like a red tide of objective secure marines. Not sure how viable it is though, most WE lists I see, are focusing on fast units and turn one possible assaults.
Bryan01 wrote: True enough, I can see the logic of saving points by taking spawn as the aux and investing into the Warband itself. List kinda looks like a red tide of objective secure marines. Not sure how viable it is though, most WE lists I see, are focusing on fast units and turn one possible assaults.
Turn One assaults are the bread and butter of the World Eaters. It can be pretty devastating and surprising for the enemy as well.
Given CSMs can now take squadrons ala the SM tanks, how would a iron warriors grand company build along these lines work?
Warband with a Chaos Lord (power weapon, Sigil, and flesh metal exo skeleton)
3 10 man CSM sqauds,
1 5 man terminator Squad with 4 combi meltas.
1 Helbrute,
1 3 man Bike Squad.
and a Fist of the Gods deatchment with
Warpsmith,
1 3 man Vindicator squadron
2 Predators.
I've costed it out to be around 1517 or so points, the idea is to make use of the re-roll on ordinance scatter dice in combination with the linebreaker bombardment rule (giving the vindicators squadron when full the option to fire a nasty ignores cover apoclypse tempalte blast) my guess is that it's a trick you'll be able to use ONCE, but IMHO it's one of the more effective ways to use the Iron Warriors ordinance re-roll
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
To fight against GK with WE you should also add the Collar of Boraghast (don't have the book with me, pardon the name error), that allows you to deny on 4+ AND auto peril for the psyker were you to deny him. GK will think twice before spamming psy powers with this dude around.
How about playing a WE list including a Fist of Khorne? Drop 700 pts in a Kharybdis, 20 blood crazed Zerkers and an Axe of Khorne (Daemonkin formation). Add a World eater Warband with 7 bikers and a Lord on bike or Juggernaut with PF/LC and Talisman of Burning blood for that super fast biker unit, two units of CSM, A winged Demon prince with Gorefather to deal with any knight, a Termicide unit,one unit of Havoc in Rhino with Plasma guns to deal with sneaky Termis that would avoid your Prince or your lord. Pepper with a single Khorne spawn and a Helbrute with Perdus Rift anomaly to reroll your Initiative or force enemy reroll.
The Fist of Khorne is your first wave, crashes in the biggest pack of vehicle you can find, and the the Berzerker can multicharge as much units as is possible / reasonable, effectively blocking a big part of the enemy army, getting them ready for your second wave with bikers and DP.
All the army is basically in the enemy's face by turn 1, two latest. Literally crashing into them before charging everywhere.
That sounds funny to play and could be pretty effective!
I am looking quiet seriously at the fist of khorne/world eaters combo. The only turn off is the price tag on the kharybdis.
Automatically Appended Next Post: (And am open to any and all scratch building ideas. I can see a . Big skull... With bio mech additions working....)
Automatically Appended Next Post: I had totally missed how good a Prince with gorefather is..
Doesn't get the survivability boost of the bezerker glaive..
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/05 09:55:33
To fight against GK with WE you should also add the Collar of Boraghast (don't have the book with me, pardon the name error), that allows you to deny on 4+ AND auto peril for the psyker were you to deny him. GK will think twice before spamming psy powers with this dude around.
How about playing a WE list including a Fist of Khorne? Drop 700 pts in a Kharybdis, 20 blood crazed Zerkers and an Axe of Khorne (Daemonkin formation). Add a World eater Warband with 7 bikers and a Lord on bike or Juggernaut with PF/LC and Talisman of Burning blood for that super fast biker unit, two units of CSM, A winged Demon prince with Gorefather to deal with any knight, a Termicide unit,one unit of Havoc in Rhino with Plasma guns to deal with sneaky Termis that would avoid your Prince or your lord. Pepper with a single Khorne spawn and a Helbrute with Perdus Rift anomaly to reroll your Initiative or force enemy reroll.
The Fist of Khorne is your first wave, crashes in the biggest pack of vehicle you can find, and the the Berzerker can multicharge as much units as is possible / reasonable, effectively blocking a big part of the enemy army, getting them ready for your second wave with bikers and DP.
All the army is basically in the enemy's face by turn 1, two latest. Literally crashing into them before charging everywhere.
That sounds funny to play and could be pretty effective!
I actually have a Fist of Khorne (with the model) and it's...OK. Zerkers aren't tough, so a multicharge takes out a few of them per enemy unit charged, and when they do charge they get a billion AP - attacks that get saved. They don't get the reroll from WE so you have to take an Icon of Wrath, and the Champ is at I4 and must challenge, so your Axe of Khorne may get smashed in the face. You're going to lose a TON of those Zerkers in that multi-charge, and for 700ish points (665 if you take no special weapons and just the icon) you could get a better first wave from WE Bikes/Raptors/Deamon Princes.
Also, it's almost impossible to mishap with the Kharybdis if you're smart about placement. It's usually always going to go exactly where you want it to or nearby as long as you hug an enemy unit (it will move back to where it can be placed off of the unit).
Fluffy? Totally. Worth it for the points? With how fast you can make your army before the game even starts now, probably not.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Do you think it is credible to slingshot WE characters into combat T1 using the fists of khorne?
I used to do that with KDK Juggerlords to hilarious effect. The thing is, with the 2D6 pre-game move, you really don't need a slingshot anymore. You can pretty consistently get into turn one charges with aggressive deployment and a fast escort unit.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Yeah. My concern is if you go second, your aggressive deployment means you get torn apart by shooting.
I mean, that's going to happen to you Kharybdis or not, which is why everyone is now taking a Helbrute with Rift Anomaly instead of Havocs in their Warband to help with that chance (it comes out to be slightly cheaper than shoving a rhino into a unit with the Anomaly). You want to be hyper aggressive to take advantage of the 2D6 free move and hope for the best. WE are absolutely devastating on the turn one charge with the right weight to throw around with Deamon Princes and Juggerlords.
If you're just going to slingshot someone in using the Kharybdis , take a CAD.
I've got a weird infantry horde thing going for MEQ armies, might be because I already have a mechanised army, or just like starring at hordes of marines on the tabletop (before they get blown away in chunks). Is going WE horde mode, with objective secure as more of a focus, then first turn assaulting, just a plain old bad alleyway to go up?
The basic WECSM, in a butcherhorde, has allot going for him, in comparison to even loyalist marines, outside of their battle companies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/05 19:15:12
