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Easily HANDS DOWN the worst unit in the game is the Thunderhawk Transporter.
At 400pts you get a 12/12/10 (admittedly 9hp) flyer with a massive FOUR tl heavy bolters. Its upgrades are awful too.
It can transport 15 models and 2 rhino sized vehicles or 1 LR sized vehicle. But if you are transporting a Landraider to avoid it being shot up... then why did you take a landraider to begin with? Not accounting for the fact that you have just paid base 650pts not including other units to have taken a landraider off the board for the first 2 turns at least (due to the Transporter needing to be in hover) to make sure it gets there safely. Footslogging marines will get there at the same time as the marines in that LR.
Combine that with the fact that its Loading rule means it slows down every vehicle you use it with and takes them off the board for at least a turn as well as making itself vulnerable for 2 turns, it makes for a unit where I cant see a single scenario in which you would use it.
Awful is an understatement. At 400pts too remember.

Oh - but its immune to the melta rule. Yay!

 Weboflies wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

No I'm pretty sure Terminators are still up there, with Tactical Marines only getting applications in a Demi-Company.

So... Tac squads are only useful when used in the most common, and arguably most powerful, formation in the SM codex, as well as arguably one of the most powerful formations in the game.... Obviously "the worst"...

Terminators are difficult to use properly. Not being able to Assault same turn as a Deep Strike is a drag, but you can load em up in a Land Raider, and, the ability to move, then pop off Storm Bolters and an Assault Cannon, and THEN assault with Power Fist/ Chainfist is strong. They can Instant Death multi wound models up to T4, or they can effectively engage a flank of infantry/ light vehicles. As long as you don't walk them up the middle of the board or Deep strike them right in the middle of the enemy position, you can make things happen with them. Regardless, as long as you don't expose them needlessly to AP2, they're going to soak up a lot of enemy fire that would be much more damaging to your other units. It's also important to bear in mind, that you're paying for Relentless and Power fists, so you have to use that to your advantage. You also have to bear in mind that they're only 5 models, and in a D6 system, even at 2+ save you're going to fail 17% of those rolls.

Look at the fluff/ history. They came out in conjunction w the original Space Hulk. They're meant to be used in tight spaces against other infantry, where the enemy can't make their numbers count. Think 300 not Rambo. You have to use them carefully as any commander would with any elite unit in real world conditions.

It'd love to see them cost less. I'd love to see the option to take them without the power fists, and with the specialist ammo instead. I'd love to see them able to assault the same turn as arriving from Deep Strike. All the same, they are still far from the worst unit in the game.

I'll ask again then, in what situation on the table top, not the fluff are they useful? (And like others have said, the termie + LR combo is a trap as it costs way too many points for way too little survivability and damage)

 BBAP wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 BBAP wrote:
Losing sight, here. Tac Squads and Terminators are sucky units, but they're not "the worst unit in the game".

That honour belongs to Crusaders in the shiny new Codex: Imperial Agents book. Come at me.

Maybe; I don't know the stats. I do know that the LR is a good way to lose 250 pts real fast.

They're WS4 Guardsmen with a Storm Shield and power sword. Land Raiders do indeed suck, but they have two twin-linked lascannons on them and thus can kill things. Unlike Crusaders

Crusaders are supposed to tank, not kill things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Weboflies wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Neither Terminators or a Land Raider are powerful at any point level.

Yet another particularly ridiculous statement.

Would I take regular Terminators in a Land Raider to a tournament, no. There's far more powerful stuff out there, but in smaller point games, or with a decent amount of LOS blocking terrain, or if kept out of harm's way til later in the game when attrition is more of a factor, either one of those units alone could tip the balance.

In a power-gaming/ competitive meta, either of the units discussed would likely not perform optimally. They still wouldn't be the worst units you could take.

No. Even in the most casual environment you can think of, the Land Raider and Terminators are gak choices because each one is an investment of about 200+ points, and ones that have very few situations where they'd EVER make their points back or even be viable. Your opponent has to be stupid to be afraid of Terminators or Land Raiders.

Stand alone without other units to help them?

Rippers for 100% sure, it is definitely rippers.

1) LD 5 with "feed" (every turn past a LD test or 1-3 take wounds, 4-5 no shoot or running must charge"
2) They are Swarms, Flamers and Blast dbl wounds
3) T3, so S6 is ID
4) Again swarms and sense its LD5 with IB that means Objective camping is a no go
5) WS/BS2 and S3 with I2 so not like melee or shooting is an option
6) Upgrdes are costly
7) T-shirt save
8) Its a Nids

All this for the same cost as a SM

Rippers are fine for holding objectives. They just fail their IB test every turn and sit there in the corner quietly eating each other.
They don't do a huge amount of damage to themselves, and unlike most of the alternatives they won't run off the table.

As I said earlier in the thread, they're the second most useful tyranid troop choice, behind mucolid spores.
I'd rather have a unit of rippers than termagants, hormagaunts, warriors, or genestealers.

Despite that, all of your points are true. They are bad. The other troop choices are just worse.

Arson Fire wrote:
Rippers are fine for holding objectives. They just fail their IB test every turn and sit there in the corner quietly eating each other.
They don't do a huge amount of damage to themselves, and unlike most of the alternatives they won't run off the table.

As I said earlier in the thread, they're the second most useful tyranid troop choice, behind mucolid spores.
I'd rather have a unit of rippers than termagants, hormagaunts, warriors, or genestealers.

IMO they arnt the 2n best, for only 1pt more you can get T-gants. They have Better WS, BS, 2 less wounds, but also better Int, Flamers and Blast dont dbl wound them, there LD is 1 higher, already comes with guns and options for better guns, the IB is also better specially for holding objectives.

Only thing better is Rippers can hide easier.

Termagants need babysitters. Their IB means they fall back if you don't dedicate a synapse unit to look after them.

Rippers work fine by themselves. Most of the time they'll inflict a couple of wounds to themselves, which stops once they're down to a single model. It'll probably take a couple of turns before they lose a single base.
Otherwise they'll try to charge enemies in range, which isn't a problem if there are no enemies in range for them to charge.

Arson Fire wrote:
Termagants need babysitters. Their IB means they fall back if you don't dedicate a synapse unit to look after them.

Rippers work fine by themselves. Most of the time they'll inflict a couple of wounds to themselves, which stops once they're down to a single model. It'll probably take a couple of turns before they lose a single base.
Otherwise they'll try to charge enemies in range, which isn't a problem if there are no enemies in range for them to charge.

Different meta I guess, they are literally pointless (more so than anything else Ive play or seen play) in my area.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

No. Even in the most casual environment you can think of, the Land Raider and Terminators are gak choices because each one is an investment of about 200+ points, and ones that have very few situations where they'd EVER make their points back or even be viable. Your opponent has to be stupid to be afraid of Terminators or Land Raiders.

 Wolfblade wrote:

I'll ask again then, in what situation on the table top, not the fluff are they useful? (And like others have said, the termie + LR combo is a trap as it costs way too many points for way too little survivability and damage)

In a smaller point game, (or in a larger point game where you can present enough other threats to keep your opponent from concentrating his fire on them), It's quite feasible to use the combination of AV 14 and hopefully some LOS blocking cover to get the LR up a flank, deploy the Terminators to move/ shoot/ assault/ and hopefully be able to leverage the Instant Death with the Power/ Chain Fists when you get there. Those 2+ are going to be a big advantage in the assault if you were smart enough not to charge a unit with high AP in CC. Ideally, you also picked a target with enough resiliency/leadership that you don't wipe them out or cause them to break until the next Assault Phase at the end of the enemy's turn after all his shooting, and you'll be free to Move/ Shoot/ Assault again, if not, the enemy is likely going to have to use more dice than he wants to to take your Terminators down, leaving your other units more free to do their thing. Maybe it's a unit critical to the enemy's shooting, and your goal isn't to wipe out or break the unit, but to use your high Ld/Sv try to keep them tied in the combat as long as you can. Meanwhile, you've also got a Land Raider in the enemy's face that's also hopefully going to become free free to fire/ ram/ tank shock, or perhaps even use it's bulk to mange LOS/ fire lanes, and mitigate how much fire is going to be able to go against your Terminators. If not, it will likely once a gain soak up more dice than your opponent would like that will be spared from raining down on the rest of your army. While all this is going on,much of the rest of your force is hopefully, getting in position to take and hold objectives, control movement and fire lanes, and get into Rapid Fire/ Special Wpn/ Assault range relatively unmolested. In a higher point game, you could hold them in reserve to help mop up after a Drop Pod list or formation had cleared the table of much of the enemy's high AP, you could use them in conjunction with an aggressive Pod assault to keep the enemy on his heels and overwhelmed with threats. There's power there in the form of good mobility and AV14 with some decent firepower with the Land Raider, as well as the ability to deliver the power of the Terminator's move/ shoot/ assault and 2+. It requires you to think during the game about your tactics, rather than just about combos etc while you're list building, but isn't that a big part of the fun of 40k?

You guys talk as though every game is going to be against the highest power level Tau/ Eldar/ Titan lists out there. As though you're going to be playing on a table with no room to manoeuvre, with little terrain, and no LOS blocking cover. If all you're doing is lining up and shooting across the table and let the best list or whoever gets the first turn win, I don't know why you even play 40k. Doesn't sound like any fun to me, but I digress...

There's sure to be games in any meta, and at any level when your Land Raider full of Terminators doesn't get there, and games when they don't deliver even if they do, but that can be said of a hell of a lot of stuff in the game. These are units that can attract a lot of attention exploiting a weakness in your enemy's position. They don't have to "make their points back" every time if they act as a force multiplyer for the rest of your army, and help you win the mission. I didn't say they were great or even good choices. I didn't say they were easy to use. All I said is they're not the worst units in the game, and they can be made to work for you in certain situations. They're not going to appeal to anyone looking for the latest auto-win list, and you're likely going to lose to that list if units like this make up much of your force, but that isn't what this topic is about. We're not talking about what are some bad units in 40k, or overcosted units in 40k, it's what are the worst, and neither of these are it, nor are Tac squads.

 Weboflies wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

No. Even in the most casual environment you can think of, the Land Raider and Terminators are gak choices because each one is an investment of about 200+ points, and ones that have very few situations where they'd EVER make their points back or even be viable. Your opponent has to be stupid to be afraid of Terminators or Land Raiders.

 Wolfblade wrote:

I'll ask again then, in what situation on the table top, not the fluff are they useful? (And like others have said, the termie + LR combo is a trap as it costs way too many points for way too little survivability and damage)

In a smaller point game, (or in a larger point game where you can present enough other threats to keep your opponent from concentrating his fire on them), It's quite feasible to use the combination of AV 14 and hopefully some LOS blocking cover to get the LR up a flank, deploy the Terminators to move/ shoot/ assault/ and hopefully be able to leverage the Instant Death with the Power/ Chain Fists when you get there. Those 2+ are going to be a big advantage in the assault if you were smart enough not to charge a unit with high AP in CC. Ideally, you also picked a target with enough resiliency/leadership that you don't wipe them out or cause them to break until the next Assault Phase at the end of the enemy's turn after all his shooting, and you'll be free to Move/ Shoot/ Assault again, if not, the enemy is likely going to have to use more dice than he wants to to take your Terminators down, leaving your other units more free to do their thing. Maybe it's a unit critical to the enemy's shooting, and your goal isn't to wipe out or break the unit, but to use your high Ld/Sv try to keep them tied in the combat as long as you can. Meanwhile, you've also got a Land Raider in the enemy's face that's also hopefully going to become free free to fire/ ram/ tank shock, or perhaps even use it's bulk to mange LOS/ fire lanes, and mitigate how much fire is going to be able to go against your Terminators. If not, it will likely once a gain soak up more dice than your opponent would like that will be spared from raining down on the rest of your army. While all this is going on,much of the rest of your force is hopefully, getting in position to take and hold objectives, control movement and fire lanes, and get into Rapid Fire/ Special Wpn/ Assault range relatively unmolested.

These are units that can attract a lot of attention exploiting a weakness in your enemy's position. They don't have to "make their points back" every time if they act as a force multiplyer for the rest of your army, and help you win the mission. I didn't say they were great or even good choices. I didn't say they were easy to use. All I said is they're not the worst units in the game, and they can be made to work for you in certain situations. They're not going to appeal to anyone looking for the latest auto-win list, and you're likely going to lose to that list if units like this make up much of your force, but that isn't what this topic is about. We're not talking about what are some bad units in 40k, or overcosted units in 40k, it's what are the worst, and neither of these are it, nor are Tac squads.

A decent player who sees their opponent spending 650 425 points BASE on a unit will either feed it fodder to tie it up all game, or just ignore it because of the lack of damage output. And rolling a land raider loaded with terminators towards a "critical unit" isn't exactly quick or surprising, and is very easily countered. In an average tourny game (1850 points), that's over a third of your points wasted on slow moving units that don't put out any damage or have the durability to survive much shooting. I'm still waiting for the situation in which they're good. The problem in your situations you presented is getting there. They might stick around in combat vs non-melee focused units, but they don't have a way of getting there. Stormraven? T3 at earliest. Landraider? Easily immobilized. Footslogging? Dead. Deepstrike? Same problems as a stormraven AND footslogging, with the only advantage of possibly getting a round of shooting in.

 Wolfblade wrote:

A decent player who sees their opponent spending 650 points BASE on a unit will either feed it fodder to tie it up all game, or just ignore it because of the lack of damage output. And rolling a land raider loaded with terminators towards a "critical unit" isn't exactly quick or surprising, and is very easily countered. In an average tourny game (1850 points), that's over a third of your points wasted on slow moving units that don't put out any damage or have the durability to survive much shooting. I'm still waiting for the situation in which they're good. The problem in your situations you presented is getting there. They might stick around in combat vs non-melee focused units, but they don't have a way of getting there. Stormraven? T3 at earliest. Landraider? Easily immobilized. Footslogging? Dead. Deepstrike? Same problems as a stormraven AND footslogging, with the only advantage of possibly getting a round of shooting in.

I did a pretty extensive edit to that post while you were writing this. I'm not sure what codex you're looking at, but Terminators in a Land Raider are 425 points base. If the opponent is going to ignore them, then they're going to stand an awful lot better chance of getting more of those points back. The Land Raider is going to make it more difficult to tie them up. There are many situations in which a Land raider would not be "easilly immobilized" before delivering Their payload. I already said they wouldn't be a good choice for tournament play, so I'm not sure why you are pointing that out again. I don't have to outline a situation where they're "good" in a competitive meta, or any situation at all, because that's not the topic of the conversation.

 Weboflies wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

A decent player who sees their opponent spending 650 points BASE on a unit will either feed it fodder to tie it up all game, or just ignore it because of the lack of damage output. And rolling a land raider loaded with terminators towards a "critical unit" isn't exactly quick or surprising, and is very easily countered. In an average tourny game (1850 points), that's over a third of your points wasted on slow moving units that don't put out any damage or have the durability to survive much shooting. I'm still waiting for the situation in which they're good. The problem in your situations you presented is getting there. They might stick around in combat vs non-melee focused units, but they don't have a way of getting there. Stormraven? T3 at earliest. Landraider? Easily immobilized. Footslogging? Dead. Deepstrike? Same problems as a stormraven AND footslogging, with the only advantage of possibly getting a round of shooting in.

I did a pretty extensive edit to that post while you were writing this. I'm not sure what codex you're looking at, but Terminators in a Land Raider are 425 points base. If the opponent is going to ignore them, then they're going to stand an awful lot better chance of getting more of those points back. The Land Raider is going to make it more difficult to tie them up. There are many situations in which a Land raider would not be "easilly immobilized" before delivering Their payload. I already said they wouldn't be a good choice for tournament play, so I'm not sure why you are pointing that out again. I don't have to outline a situation where they're "good" in a competitive meta, or any situation at all, because that's not the topic of the conversation.

As an Ork player, I can verify that a 475pt Land Raider with 5 TH/SS Terminators inside is pretty scary in smaller games, around 1k points. We don't have any kind of anti-armor at range, unless you count Rokkits, who can deal with AV12 reasonably enough but can't do much more than scratch the paint on AV14, so if we want a tank dead, we have to charge it. Charging it, though, means getting within striking distance of those Terminators - Terminators who ID everyone except our bikes and our Warbosses, effectively ignoring any kind of save we could possibly get in Close Combat. Since they're in a Land Raider, we can't just bog them down with Boys either, first we would have to pop the Raider - But like I said, we don't have ranged anti-tank. So if we want them dead, we need to take a strong melee unit, and drop it right next to a squad who can overcome anything our Strong Melee Unit could throw at it.

200 points of Assault Terminators will beat 200 points of Meganobz, any day.

 Weboflies wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

A decent player who sees their opponent spending 650 points BASE on a unit will either feed it fodder to tie it up all game, or just ignore it because of the lack of damage output. And rolling a land raider loaded with terminators towards a "critical unit" isn't exactly quick or surprising, and is very easily countered. In an average tourny game (1850 points), that's over a third of your points wasted on slow moving units that don't put out any damage or have the durability to survive much shooting. I'm still waiting for the situation in which they're good. The problem in your situations you presented is getting there. They might stick around in combat vs non-melee focused units, but they don't have a way of getting there. Stormraven? T3 at earliest. Landraider? Easily immobilized. Footslogging? Dead. Deepstrike? Same problems as a stormraven AND footslogging, with the only advantage of possibly getting a round of shooting in.

I did a pretty extensive edit to that post while you were writing this. I'm not sure what codex you're looking at, but Terminators in a Land Raider are 425 points base. If the opponent is going to ignore them, then they're going to stand an awful lot better chance of getting more of those points back. The Land Raider is going to make it more difficult to tie them up. There are many situations in which a Land raider would not be "easilly immobilized" before delivering Their payload. I already said they wouldn't be a good choice for tournament play, so I'm not sure why you are pointing that out again. I don't have to outline a situation where they're "good" in a competitive meta, or any situation at all, because that's not the topic of the conversation.

Whoops, my bad, I think I was looking at a fully outfitted squad instead of a base squad for some reason. Anyways a barebones squad w/ an assault cannon and a redeemer is 445. Still expensive, and not a whole lot of damage output. Swap those for assault termies and the threat is lessened even more so, and IoW termies are little more than a points sink.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Weboflies wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

A decent player who sees their opponent spending 650 points BASE on a unit will either feed it fodder to tie it up all game, or just ignore it because of the lack of damage output. And rolling a land raider loaded with terminators towards a "critical unit" isn't exactly quick or surprising, and is very easily countered. In an average tourny game (1850 points), that's over a third of your points wasted on slow moving units that don't put out any damage or have the durability to survive much shooting. I'm still waiting for the situation in which they're good. The problem in your situations you presented is getting there. They might stick around in combat vs non-melee focused units, but they don't have a way of getting there. Stormraven? T3 at earliest. Landraider? Easily immobilized. Footslogging? Dead. Deepstrike? Same problems as a stormraven AND footslogging, with the only advantage of possibly getting a round of shooting in.

I did a pretty extensive edit to that post while you were writing this. I'm not sure what codex you're looking at, but Terminators in a Land Raider are 425 points base. If the opponent is going to ignore them, then they're going to stand an awful lot better chance of getting more of those points back. The Land Raider is going to make it more difficult to tie them up. There are many situations in which a Land raider would not be "easilly immobilized" before delivering Their payload. I already said they wouldn't be a good choice for tournament play, so I'm not sure why you are pointing that out again. I don't have to outline a situation where they're "good" in a competitive meta, or any situation at all, because that's not the topic of the conversation.

As an Ork player, I can verify that a 475pt Land Raider with 5 TH/SS Terminators inside is pretty scary in smaller games, around 1k points. We don't have any kind of anti-armor at range, unless you count Rokkits, who can deal with AV12 reasonably enough but can't do much more than scratch the paint on AV14, so if we want a tank dead, we have to charge it. Charging it, though, means getting within striking distance of those Terminators - Terminators who ID everyone except our bikes and our Warbosses, effectively ignoring any kind of save we could possibly get in Close Combat. Since they're in a Land Raider, we can't just bog them down with Boys either, first we would have to pop the Raider - But like I said, we don't have ranged anti-tank. So if we want them dead, we need to take a strong melee unit, and drop it right next to a squad who can overcome anything our Strong Melee Unit could throw at it.

200 points of Assault Terminators will beat 200 points of Meganobz, any day.

Orks are also in contention for one of the worst codexes overall, along with 'nids, and maybe IG (and SoB/DE/the new C:IA)

 Wolfblade wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Weboflies wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

A decent player who sees their opponent spending 650 points BASE on a unit will either feed it fodder to tie it up all game, or just ignore it because of the lack of damage output. And rolling a land raider loaded with terminators towards a "critical unit" isn't exactly quick or surprising, and is very easily countered. In an average tourny game (1850 points), that's over a third of your points wasted on slow moving units that don't put out any damage or have the durability to survive much shooting. I'm still waiting for the situation in which they're good. The problem in your situations you presented is getting there. They might stick around in combat vs non-melee focused units, but they don't have a way of getting there. Stormraven? T3 at earliest. Landraider? Easily immobilized. Footslogging? Dead. Deepstrike? Same problems as a stormraven AND footslogging, with the only advantage of possibly getting a round of shooting in.

I did a pretty extensive edit to that post while you were writing this. I'm not sure what codex you're looking at, but Terminators in a Land Raider are 425 points base. If the opponent is going to ignore them, then they're going to stand an awful lot better chance of getting more of those points back. The Land Raider is going to make it more difficult to tie them up. There are many situations in which a Land raider would not be "easilly immobilized" before delivering Their payload. I already said they wouldn't be a good choice for tournament play, so I'm not sure why you are pointing that out again. I don't have to outline a situation where they're "good" in a competitive meta, or any situation at all, because that's not the topic of the conversation.

As an Ork player, I can verify that a 475pt Land Raider with 5 TH/SS Terminators inside is pretty scary in smaller games, around 1k points. We don't have any kind of anti-armor at range, unless you count Rokkits, who can deal with AV12 reasonably enough but can't do much more than scratch the paint on AV14, so if we want a tank dead, we have to charge it. Charging it, though, means getting within striking distance of those Terminators - Terminators who ID everyone except our bikes and our Warbosses, effectively ignoring any kind of save we could possibly get in Close Combat. Since they're in a Land Raider, we can't just bog them down with Boys either, first we would have to pop the Raider - But like I said, we don't have ranged anti-tank. So if we want them dead, we need to take a strong melee unit, and drop it right next to a squad who can overcome anything our Strong Melee Unit could throw at it.

200 points of Assault Terminators will beat 200 points of Meganobz, any day.

Orks are also in contention for one of the worst codexes overall, along with 'nids, and maybe IG

You forget Sisters of Battle.

Anyhow, though, that still means that there are a plethora of worse choices than Land Raiders, because they can still be a thorn in the side of someone.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Weboflies wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

A decent player who sees their opponent spending 650 points BASE on a unit will either feed it fodder to tie it up all game, or just ignore it because of the lack of damage output. And rolling a land raider loaded with terminators towards a "critical unit" isn't exactly quick or surprising, and is very easily countered. In an average tourny game (1850 points), that's over a third of your points wasted on slow moving units that don't put out any damage or have the durability to survive much shooting. I'm still waiting for the situation in which they're good. The problem in your situations you presented is getting there. They might stick around in combat vs non-melee focused units, but they don't have a way of getting there. Stormraven? T3 at earliest. Landraider? Easily immobilized. Footslogging? Dead. Deepstrike? Same problems as a stormraven AND footslogging, with the only advantage of possibly getting a round of shooting in.

I did a pretty extensive edit to that post while you were writing this. I'm not sure what codex you're looking at, but Terminators in a Land Raider are 425 points base. If the opponent is going to ignore them, then they're going to stand an awful lot better chance of getting more of those points back. The Land Raider is going to make it more difficult to tie them up. There are many situations in which a Land raider would not be "easilly immobilized" before delivering Their payload. I already said they wouldn't be a good choice for tournament play, so I'm not sure why you are pointing that out again. I don't have to outline a situation where they're "good" in a competitive meta, or any situation at all, because that's not the topic of the conversation.

As an Ork player, I can verify that a 475pt Land Raider with 5 TH/SS Terminators inside is pretty scary in smaller games, around 1k points. We don't have any kind of anti-armor at range, unless you count Rokkits, who can deal with AV12 reasonably enough but can't do much more than scratch the paint on AV14, so if we want a tank dead, we have to charge it. Charging it, though, means getting within striking distance of those Terminators - Terminators who ID everyone except our bikes and our Warbosses, effectively ignoring any kind of save we could possibly get in Close Combat. Since they're in a Land Raider, we can't just bog them down with Boys either, first we would have to pop the Raider - But like I said, we don't have ranged anti-tank. So if we want them dead, we need to take a strong melee unit, and drop it right next to a squad who can overcome anything our Strong Melee Unit could throw at it.

200 points of Assault Terminators will beat 200 points of Meganobz, any day.

Orks are also in contention for one of the worst codexes overall, along with 'nids, and maybe IG

You forget Sisters of Battle.

Anyhow, though, that still means that there are a plethora of worse choices than Land Raiders, because they can still be a thorn in the side of someone.

So I did, and apparently the new imperial agents codex too.

 Wolfblade wrote:

Anyhow, though, that still means that there are a plethora of worse choices than Land Raiders, because they can still be a thorn in the side of someone.

So I did, and apparently the new imperial agents codex too.

On the whole, the codex isn't actually that terrible. Inquisitors lost Servo-Skulls and Celestine is apparently gone the way of the dodo, but other than that, nothing is broken and a few things are fixed. Inquisitorial Henchmen squads actually feel like squads of henchmen now, instead of... Whatever it was that they were before. Weird smooshed-together squads of optimized damage/durability/cost ratios? (And 18-pt imperial psyker/guardsman exploits are gone, replaced with 25-pt Astropath psyker RAI.)

Rough Riders, Electropriests, Kroot and Vespids (at least relative to the rest of the codex), Warp Talons, Chosen, non-FW Land Raiders, Kommandos, and Tankbustas after the grenade FAQ.

I'd still say Rubrics are amongst the worst. They got a boost, so they're at least not the worst anymore.

I don't know anything about the 'Nid and DE codices though.

 Wolfblade wrote:
Still expensive, and not a whole lot of damage output.

We can agree on that. I am really hoping they get better or cheaper in the next edition.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crusaders are supposed to tank, not kill things.

In that case they're overcosted - you get to take the 3++ save against more or less everything, but you'll be doing that a lot due to T3, and the more of them you take the worse your unit becomes for its price. They suck.

Thunderhawk Transporter can't be bad because it is Nested Doll Space Marines:

Space marine in space marine (centurion armour) in space marine (land raider) in space marine (Thunderhawk Transporter).


The sheer volume of space marine your space marine so you can space marine while you space marine your space marines would bring a tear even to Master Xibit of the Western Fringe Customs Chapter.

 BBAP wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crusaders are supposed to tank, not kill things.

In that case they're overcosted - you get to take the 3++ save against more or less everything, but you'll be doing that a lot due to T3, and the more of them you take the worse your unit becomes for its price. They suck.

Take a priest for rerollable 3++?

 Weboflies wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

A decent player who sees their opponent spending 650 points BASE on a unit will either feed it fodder to tie it up all game, or just ignore it because of the lack of damage output. And rolling a land raider loaded with terminators towards a "critical unit" isn't exactly quick or surprising, and is very easily countered. In an average tourny game (1850 points), that's over a third of your points wasted on slow moving units that don't put out any damage or have the durability to survive much shooting. I'm still waiting for the situation in which they're good. The problem in your situations you presented is getting there. They might stick around in combat vs non-melee focused units, but they don't have a way of getting there. Stormraven? T3 at earliest. Landraider? Easily immobilized. Footslogging? Dead. Deepstrike? Same problems as a stormraven AND footslogging, with the only advantage of possibly getting a round of shooting in.

I did a pretty extensive edit to that post while you were writing this. I'm not sure what codex you're looking at, but Terminators in a Land Raider are 425 points base. If the opponent is going to ignore them, then they're going to stand an awful lot better chance of getting more of those points back. The Land Raider is going to make it more difficult to tie them up. There are many situations in which a Land raider would not be "easilly immobilized" before delivering Their payload. I already said they wouldn't be a good choice for tournament play, so I'm not sure why you are pointing that out again. I don't have to outline a situation where they're "good" in a competitive meta, or any situation at all, because that's not the topic of the conversation.

You know how much they cost, right? They're not going to make their points back because of how much points they take up.
You're nearing 450 points. That's almost half of a 1000 point game. You have little objective takers, and little offense because you put your eggs in that one gak basket. So in your smaller game, where a Terminator is still less durable than the equivalent price of Marines, you're going to lose a bunch of points.

And it isn't always easy to immobilize a Land Raider? Really? Outside of it having a large footprint and knocking itself out on terrain? Literally every codex has easy ways to knock it out. Even Orks can run up with Tank Bustaz, knock a HP off or two, and throw a Melta Bomb on it.

Not much is needed to invest in that, and they were likely doing it anyway.

nareik wrote:
Thunderhawk Transporter can't be bad because it is Babushka Space Marines:

Space marine in space marine (centurion armour) in space marine (land raider) in space marine (Thunderhawk Transporter).


The sheer volume of space marine your space marine so you can space marine while you space marine your space marines would bring a tear even to Master Xibit of the Western Fringe Customs Chapter.

A Babushka is a headscarf. Or Grandmother, depending on context. I believe you're thinking of a Matryoshka, or Nesting Doll.

 greatbigtree wrote:

nareik wrote:
Thunderhawk Transporter can't be bad because it is Babushka Space Marines:

Space marine in space marine (centurion armour) in space marine (land raider) in space marine (Thunderhawk Transporter).


The sheer volume of space marine your space marine so you can space marine while you space marine your space marines would bring a tear even to Master Xibit of the Western Fringe Customs Chapter.

A Babushka is a headscarf. Or Grandmother, depending on context. I believe you're thinking of a Matryoshka, or Nesting Doll.

Yes, a nesting doll. In Greece they call them Babushkas. I suppose because they are sometimes painted wearing one? thank you for clarifying to anyone who was confused, I'll go back and edit my post to accommodate a more broadly understood name for these dolls.

I should probably have made an inception reference. Way more relevant than nested dolls and Xibit!

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Weboflies wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

A decent player who sees their opponent spending 650 points BASE on a unit will either feed it fodder to tie it up all game, or just ignore it because of the lack of damage output. And rolling a land raider loaded with terminators towards a "critical unit" isn't exactly quick or surprising, and is very easily countered. In an average tourny game (1850 points), that's over a third of your points wasted on slow moving units that don't put out any damage or have the durability to survive much shooting. I'm still waiting for the situation in which they're good. The problem in your situations you presented is getting there. They might stick around in combat vs non-melee focused units, but they don't have a way of getting there. Stormraven? T3 at earliest. Landraider? Easily immobilized. Footslogging? Dead. Deepstrike? Same problems as a stormraven AND footslogging, with the only advantage of possibly getting a round of shooting in.

I did a pretty extensive edit to that post while you were writing this. I'm not sure what codex you're looking at, but Terminators in a Land Raider are 425 points base. If the opponent is going to ignore them, then they're going to stand an awful lot better chance of getting more of those points back. The Land Raider is going to make it more difficult to tie them up. There are many situations in which a Land raider would not be "easilly immobilized" before delivering Their payload. I already said they wouldn't be a good choice for tournament play, so I'm not sure why you are pointing that out again. I don't have to outline a situation where they're "good" in a competitive meta, or any situation at all, because that's not the topic of the conversation.

As an Ork player, I can verify that a 475pt Land Raider with 5 TH/SS Terminators inside is pretty scary in smaller games, around 1k points. We don't have any kind of anti-armor at range, unless you count Rokkits, who can deal with AV12 reasonably enough but can't do much more than scratch the paint on AV14, so if we want a tank dead, we have to charge it. Charging it, though, means getting within striking distance of those Terminators - Terminators who ID everyone except our bikes and our Warbosses, effectively ignoring any kind of save we could possibly get in Close Combat. Since they're in a Land Raider, we can't just bog them down with Boys either, first we would have to pop the Raider - But like I said, we don't have ranged anti-tank. So if we want them dead, we need to take a strong melee unit, and drop it right next to a squad who can overcome anything our Strong Melee Unit could throw at it.

200 points of Assault Terminators will beat 200 points of Meganobz, any day.

I'd take the MANz. lightning claws and power weapons are useless against them. MANz have more wounds. You'd need to dump a ton of points into storm hammers while the MANz power klaw comes standard. You can dump even more points into shields but now we're talking 2v1 odds in model count. The MANz have more attacks so being outnumbered that badly is a pretty serious concern.

Not to say I think either unit is bad. They can get hassled pretty bad by elder but people misunderstand their purpose. They can eat 500 Points of shooting or combat for several turns. They're tanks, not dps. I've had killer games with bullyboyz against necrons, tau, AM, CSM, SM, sob, other orks, tyranids and even Titans. If your playing orks, your opponent may favor flamers and other high ap high volume weapons, which MANz laugh at.

Land raiders are far from the worst unit in the game. I'd vote flashgitz. They are bad at shooting and cc and die very easy and are priced like all 3 of those things aren't true.

Terminators are NOT tanky.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Take a priest for rerollable 3++?

CC only though. Bolters will still pop them open.

 slip wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Weboflies wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

A decent player who sees their opponent spending 650 points BASE on a unit will either feed it fodder to tie it up all game, or just ignore it because of the lack of damage output. And rolling a land raider loaded with terminators towards a "critical unit" isn't exactly quick or surprising, and is very easily countered. In an average tourny game (1850 points), that's over a third of your points wasted on slow moving units that don't put out any damage or have the durability to survive much shooting. I'm still waiting for the situation in which they're good. The problem in your situations you presented is getting there. They might stick around in combat vs non-melee focused units, but they don't have a way of getting there. Stormraven? T3 at earliest. Landraider? Easily immobilized. Footslogging? Dead. Deepstrike? Same problems as a stormraven AND footslogging, with the only advantage of possibly getting a round of shooting in.

I did a pretty extensive edit to that post while you were writing this. I'm not sure what codex you're looking at, but Terminators in a Land Raider are 425 points base. If the opponent is going to ignore them, then they're going to stand an awful lot better chance of getting more of those points back. The Land Raider is going to make it more difficult to tie them up. There are many situations in which a Land raider would not be "easilly immobilized" before delivering Their payload. I already said they wouldn't be a good choice for tournament play, so I'm not sure why you are pointing that out again. I don't have to outline a situation where they're "good" in a competitive meta, or any situation at all, because that's not the topic of the conversation.

As an Ork player, I can verify that a 475pt Land Raider with 5 TH/SS Terminators inside is pretty scary in smaller games, around 1k points. We don't have any kind of anti-armor at range, unless you count Rokkits, who can deal with AV12 reasonably enough but can't do much more than scratch the paint on AV14, so if we want a tank dead, we have to charge it. Charging it, though, means getting within striking distance of those Terminators - Terminators who ID everyone except our bikes and our Warbosses, effectively ignoring any kind of save we could possibly get in Close Combat. Since they're in a Land Raider, we can't just bog them down with Boys either, first we would have to pop the Raider - But like I said, we don't have ranged anti-tank. So if we want them dead, we need to take a strong melee unit, and drop it right next to a squad who can overcome anything our Strong Melee Unit could throw at it.

200 points of Assault Terminators will beat 200 points of Meganobz, any day.

I'd take the MANz. lightning claws and power weapons are useless against them. MANz have more wounds. You'd need to dump a ton of points into storm hammers while the MANz power klaw comes standard. You can dump even more points into shields but now we're talking 2v1 odds in model count. The MANz have more attacks so being outnumbered that badly is a pretty serious concern.

Not to say I think either unit is bad. They can get hassled pretty bad by elder but people misunderstand their purpose. They can eat 500 Points of shooting or combat for several turns. They're tanks, not dps. I've had killer games with bullyboyz against necrons, tau, AM, CSM, SM, sob, other orks, tyranids and even Titans. If your playing orks, your opponent may favor flamers and other high ap high volume weapons, which MANz laugh at.

Land raiders are far from the worst unit in the game. I'd vote flashgitz. They are bad at shooting and cc and die very easy and are priced like all 3 of those things aren't true.

TH/SS Terminators are 45 points. MANz are 40 points. In a stand-up fight, a MAN will get .4 Wounds against a TH/SS Terminator, and the Terminator will get .84 - Of course, that .84 is Instant Death, so bye bye MANz. (If you break it down by attack, each MANz attack amounts to .13 wounds, each Terminator attack amounts to .42 - This means that Termies also benefit a lot more on the charge.)

170 points of Assault Terminators will kill 3 Meganobz in one turn of combat, while 200 points of Meganobz will kill two Assault Termies.

But the MANZ are better against the field, I think.

MANz have more use against non ID attacks, and have a shooting attack (compared to TH/SS termies).

Obviously termies have better survivability vs AP2/ID attacks, but outside of that it takes more to bring a MAN down, and TH/SS termies have no ranged attack. It's a little foolish to compare MANz to assault termies though, MANz are not a dedicated assault unit like TH/SS termies are. They're more of a general purpose unit like regular termies, and are only good in the ork codex because a nob squad is just as expensive if given PKs and 'eavy armor (iirc)