Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 master of ordinance wrote:

They cost as much as a far faster, far harder hitting, far tougher unit

Which one? Wulfen? Wraiths? Come on, you are not competing with them. You are IG. Compare them to Chaos Terminators or something.

If they had been on par you would have been codex: Ogryns and that would not have been an ideal situation either.

have no feasible way outside of FW to get across the board unless you take four Ogryn squads (and at that point you might as well not bother), have a 12" ranged cannon that has zilch in the way of AP and is often better at scaring the enemy than anything else

Yeah, that's about their job. You are IG, an effective melee list is not something you can do and sending in the Ogryns alone will obviously get them killed.

Keep them back, in cover, and use them to deter attackers (such as assault marines, who point for point are a fairly even match for Ogryns - about half the price, but with considerably lower attack power).

They are not a hammer unit - they are a deterrence unit.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Most of their Codex isn't 45pts/model.

Most of their codex is not S5/T5/W3 with weapons to match.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

They cost as much as a far faster, far harder hitting, far tougher unit

Which one? Wulfen? Wraiths? Come on, you are not competing with them. You are IG. Compare them to Chaos Terminators or something.

If they had been on par you would have been codex: Ogryns and that would not have been an ideal situation either.

Except we are competing with Wulfen and Wraiths, alongside Thunderwolves and Assault Terminators, and a plethora of other CC units. You remind me of an ex GW rules writer we have in my local club. When discussing the inherent balance issues in 40K his response to Ogryns costing as much as TW whilst being less than a quarter as effective was "well, they are in the Guard codex, so they are balanced in relation t Guardsmen, if they where in the SW codex then they would be better or cost less"

have no feasible way outside of FW to get across the board unless you take four Ogryn squads (and at that point you might as well not bother), have a 12" ranged cannon that has zilch in the way of AP and is often better at scaring the enemy than anything else

Yeah, that's about their job. You are IG, an effective melee list is not something you can do and sending in the Ogryns alone will obviously get them killed.

Keep them back, in cover, and use them to deter attackers (such as assault marines, who point for point are a fairly even match for Ogryns - about half the price, but with considerably lower attack power).

They are not a hammer unit - they are a deterrence unit.

And yet IG can be out shot by some of the so-called Melee lists (SW for instance).

But anyway, if you send the Ogryns in alone then yes, they will be butchered, but even if you advance with them and cover them they will still be cut down because they are that bad. What is more, keeping them back only ever works if your opponent A) wants to get close anyway, and B) Aims for the portion of the line where the Ogryns are, oh and C) Does not just shoot them up first. And even then the Ogryns prove to be far less than stellar in this roll, often being out punched by the enemies assault units.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Most of their Codex isn't 45pts/model.

Most of their codex is not S5/T5/W3 with weapons to match.

Most of the codex is overpriced S3/T3/W1, but that aside the Ogryns are still not balanced. Balancing a unit against a codex only works when placed in a vacuum, hence the current state of 40K.

Against a lot of lists, Ogryns last a lot longer than assault terminators. Against a list like Tau, Ogyrns are actually better than anything in my codex.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Except we are competing with Wulfen and Wraiths, alongside Thunderwolves and Assault Terminators, and a plethora of other CC units. You remind me of an ex GW rules writer we have in my local club. When discussing the inherent balance issues in 40K his response to Ogryns costing as much as TW whilst being less than a quarter as effective was "well, they are in the Guard codex, so they are balanced in relation t Guardsmen, if they where in the SW codex then they would be better or cost less"

So buff them up to Wraith level and you now have a codex where everything except Ogryns is completely irrelevant. Would that make you happy?

even if you advance with them

Don't. That's not the point. If they advance they will be the sole target of enemy short-range weaponry and quickly be cut down. As said, hold them back.

What is more, keeping them back only ever works if your opponent A) wants to get close anyway, and B) Aims for the portion of the line where the Ogryns are, oh and C) Does not just shoot them up first.

Keep them in cover, or better yet, outside of LOS. Hell, hiding them behind the very tanks you are protecting should solve it neatly - to crack your AV14 you either need stuff like melta (which brings you into Ogryn threat range) or stuff like grav and ranged D (which means you are probably facing one of the stronger armies that would butcher you even if you'd spend the Ogryn points on Guardsmen instead )

And even then the Ogryns prove to be far less than stellar in this roll, often being out punched by the enemies assault units.

They do very decently against both Assault Marines and Terminators, typical assault units they are likely to encounter in practice due to everybody and their old grandma playing SM. Both ASM and Termies have a low attack count which means they can't effectively shift the Ogryns, while the Ogryns wear them down in return.

Sure, they will fold to Wraithknights, but then again, what in the IG codex won't?

 Ashiraya wrote:
...They do very decently against both Assault Marines and Terminators...

...In what pipe dream? (By my math it takes four Terminator-phases to kill an Ogryn by comparison to seven Ogryn-phases to kill a Terminator in melee)

Six Ogryn-phases to me. Ogryns benefit a lot more should they the charge as well than Terminators would due to powerful assault weapons (and do they still have FC?)

The counterattack role (and the rules of DS, if Terminators do that) means Ogryns are more likely to get the charge.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Six Ogryn-phases to me. Ogryns benefit a lot more should they the charge as well than Terminators would due to powerful assault weapons (and do they still have FC?)

The counterattack role (and the rules of DS, if Terminators do that) means Ogryns are more likely to get the charge.

Ogryns benefit less from the charge given that they have less powerful assault weapons and there are few of them. One extra S5/AP- attack per 45pt model is going to get you less than one extra S8/AP2 attack per 35pt model.

 wuestenfux wrote:
It's the Tactical squad.
The master of none.

That is a particularly ridiculous statement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Terminators

Yet another remarkably ridiculous statement.

Just because a unit has certain applications in which it shines, and many in which it doesn't, and you have to know how to use it properly rather than just throw it at the enemy army randomly and then be butthurt that it didn't "make it's points back", doesn't mean it's bad. It means the player in question is bad.

No offence.

Martel732 wrote:
Against a lot of lists, Ogryns last a lot longer than assault terminators. Against a list like Tau, Ogyrns are actually better than anything in my codex.

like what for example? Theydo die to pulse rifles better than termies. And have more opportunities to do so while footslogging.

 Weboflies wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
It's the Tactical squad.
The master of none.

That is a particularly ridiculous statement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Terminators

Yet another remarkably ridiculous statement.

Just because a unit has certain applications in which it shines, and many in which it doesn't, and you have to know how to use it properly rather than just throw it at the enemy army randomly and then be butthurt that it didn't "make it's points back", doesn't mean it's bad. It means the player in question is bad.

No offence.

In what incredibly specific situation are tactical squads and terminators "good"?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Ogryns benefit less from the charge given that they have less powerful assault weapons and there are few of them.

No, the stormbolter is not more powerful than the ripper gun.

One extra S5/AP- attack per 45pt model is going to get you less than one extra S8/AP2 attack per 35pt model.

Don't Ogryns have FC?

 Ashiraya wrote:


Don't Ogryns have FC?

No, they only have Stubborn, Very Bulky and Hammer of Wrath

Oh. Shows how much I have read the new codex. They used to have it, I do believe.

HoW is not useless either, but it is much better depending on how close you are.

Gun drones
I can't actually find a use for them at all.
Like you don't mind the free ones I get from vehicles but urgh
I am never fielding a gun drone unless it comes with a vehicle

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Gun drones
I can't actually find a use for them at all.
Like you don't mind the free ones I get from vehicles but urgh
I am never fielding a gun drone unless it comes with a vehicle

A squad of 4 are cheap, and taken with the drone formation (in it or not) are better damage output/durability then fire warriors. Obviously marker drones are a better use, but gun drones aren't terrible compared to say bloodbrides, wyches, vespids, ogryn, terminators, etc.

 Wolfblade wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Gun drones
I can't actually find a use for them at all.
Like you don't mind the free ones I get from vehicles but urgh
I am never fielding a gun drone unless it comes with a vehicle

A squad of 4 are cheap, and taken with the drone formation (in it or not) are better damage output/durability then fire warriors. Obviously marker drones are a better use, but gun drones aren't terrible compared to say bloodbrides, wyches, vespids, ogryn, terminators, etc.

Idk I guess at that point I'd sooner take dual burst crisis suits and that's saying something lol

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Gun drones
I can't actually find a use for them at all.
Like you don't mind the free ones I get from vehicles but urgh
I am never fielding a gun drone unless it comes with a vehicle

A squad of 4 are cheap, and taken with the drone formation (in it or not) are better damage output/durability then fire warriors. Obviously marker drones are a better use, but gun drones aren't terrible compared to say bloodbrides, wyches, vespids, ogryn, terminators, etc.

Idk I guess at that point I'd sooner take dual burst crisis suits and that's saying something lol

That's more expensive however, and takes an elite slot (assuming a CAD)

 Wolfblade wrote:

In what incredibly specific situation are tactical squads and terminators "good"?

There are plenty of situations in which they are good. You can't throw either one 1-1 willy nilly against a deathstar, or a Knight Titan but you're not meant to. That's not the point though, because that wasn't the question. The question was "what's the worst unit in the game" and neither of those are even close.

 Weboflies wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

In what incredibly specific situation are tactical squads and terminators "good"?

There are plenty of situations in which they are good. You can't throw either one 1-1 willy nilly against a deathstar, or a Knight Titan but you're not meant to. That's not the point though, because that wasn't the question. The question was "what's the worst unit in the game" and neither of those are even close.

No I'm pretty sure Terminators are still up there, with Tactical Marines only getting applications in a Demi-Company.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

No I'm pretty sure Terminators are still up there, with Tactical Marines only getting applications in a Demi-Company.

So... Tac squads are only useful when used in the most common, and arguably most powerful, formation in the SM codex, as well as arguably one of the most powerful formations in the game.... Obviously "the worst"...

Terminators are difficult to use properly. Not being able to Assault same turn as a Deep Strike is a drag, but you can load em up in a Land Raider, and, the ability to move, then pop off Storm Bolters and an Assault Cannon, and THEN assault with Power Fist/ Chainfist is strong. They can Instant Death multi wound models up to T4, or they can effectively engage a flank of infantry/ light vehicles. As long as you don't walk them up the middle of the board or Deep strike them right in the middle of the enemy position, you can make things happen with them. Regardless, as long as you don't expose them needlessly to AP2, they're going to soak up a lot of enemy fire that would be much more damaging to your other units. It's also important to bear in mind, that you're paying for Relentless and Power fists, so you have to use that to your advantage. You also have to bear in mind that they're only 5 models, and in a D6 system, even at 2+ save you're going to fail 17% of those rolls.

Look at the fluff/ history. They came out in conjunction w the original Space Hulk. They're meant to be used in tight spaces against other infantry, where the enemy can't make their numbers count. Think 300 not Rambo. You have to use them carefully as any commander would with any elite unit in real world conditions.

It'd love to see them cost less. I'd love to see the option to take them without the power fists, and with the specialist ammo instead. I'd love to see them able to assault the same turn as arriving from Deep Strike. All the same, they are still far from the worst unit in the game.

The fact you said you could load them up in a Land Raider as though that were a viable tactic shows how out of touch you are with how bad certain units are in the game.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The fact you said you could load them up in a Land Raider as though that were a viable tactic shows how out of touch you are with how bad certain units are in the game.

How is that not a viable tactic? The Land Raider itself is a very powerful unit, and it allows the Terminators to disembark, shoot, and then charge. Once again, You can't just drive your land raider up the middle of the table against a Tau gun line and expect you're going to steamroll the enemy. You have to use your head and apply proper tactics. Still not auto-win, still not the worst thing in the game.

Did Land Raiders get a buff when I wasn't looking? Mine don't tend to accomplish much and mostly serve as an expensive chauffeur for my Centurions

Perhaps I shouldn't have said "very powerful", but it is a powerful unit, in it's own right.

This is all dependent on point level and power level of course. Neither unit on it's own will stand up to a Knight Titan or your opponent's entire force, and neither is meant to.

 Weboflies wrote:
Perhaps I shouldn't have said "very powerful", but it is a powerful unit, in it's own right.

This is all dependent on point level and power level of course. Neither unit on it's own will stand up to a Knight Titan or your opponent's entire force, and neither is meant to.

Neither Terminators or a Land Raider are powerful at any point level.

Land raiders are in contention for the worst unit in the game. Try again.

Losing sight, here. Tac Squads and Terminators are sucky units, but they're not "the worst unit in the game".

That honour belongs to Crusaders in the shiny new Codex: Imperial Agents book. Come at me.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Neither Terminators or a Land Raider are powerful at any point level.

Yet another particularly ridiculous statement.

Would I take regular Terminators in a Land Raider to a tournament, no. There's far more powerful stuff out there, but in smaller point games, or with a decent amount of LOS blocking terrain, or if kept out of harm's way til later in the game when attrition is more of a factor, either one of those units alone could tip the balance.

In a power-gaming/ competitive meta, either of the units discussed would likely not perform optimally. They still wouldn't be the worst units you could take.

 BBAP wrote:
Losing sight, here. Tac Squads and Terminators are sucky units, but they're not "the worst unit in the game".

That honour belongs to Crusaders in the shiny new Codex: Imperial Agents book. Come at me.

Maybe; I don't know the stats. I do know that the LR is a good way to lose 250 pts real fast.

Martel732 wrote:

 BBAP wrote:
Losing sight, here. Tac Squads and Terminators are sucky units, but they're not "the worst unit in the game".

That honour belongs to Crusaders in the shiny new Codex: Imperial Agents book. Come at me.

Maybe; I don't know the stats. I do know that the LR is a good way to lose 250 pts real fast.

They're WS4 Guardsmen with a Storm Shield and power sword. Land Raiders do indeed suck, but they have two twin-linked lascannons on them and thus can kill things. Unlike Crusaders