Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 BBAP wrote:
I get that DA aren't bad units, if only for the extra Wave Serpent - but their hats are half the size of the dudes themselves. That's a three, four foot tall hat right there. And it has a brush on it. How can anyone fight a war wearing a four foot tall brush-hat? How could you do anything? How do they even fit in the Wave Serpent?

I collected Eldar almost exclusively for the hats.

I still haven't seen a page number in the rule book that says a Land Raider has to make a Difficult Terrain Test twice or more when it moves into, stops, or moves out of terrain.

Worst unit in the game? How about Sisters of Battle Repentia Squad? 85 points for 5 models, 4 of which are T3 have no armor save, 6++ wielding Eviscerators (Sx2, AP2, melee, armorbane, Twoo-handed, and the best part: Unwieldy)? +14pts/model. The Mistress isn't bad, but she isn't any good either. Oh, they do have a once per game ability to give themselves FnP 3+ for that phase only.

I don't think there is a specific rule that says they take two tests, I think he means that because of their size you often end up stopping in terrain and then have to take tests on two successive turns to get through 1 piece of terrain.

I vote for the Tempestus Commissars.

They've got essentially no utility whatsoever.

Yoyoyo wrote:
I vote for the Tempestus Commissars.

They've got essentially no utility whatsoever.

They're 25 points to fill up a mandatory HQ slot if you don't want to spend points on a Command Squad.

So they're good but only in the same way as Mucolids.

I'm pretty sure that lifta-droppa wagons are worse than land raiders. The lifta-droppa is a 225-pt battlewagon with a transport capacity of 6, which can try to hit one enemy non-superheavy vehicle a turn with ork BS2, then if it hits it has a 1/6 chance of failing horribly, a 2/3 chance of removing d3 HP and nudging it gently in a random direction, and a 1/6 chance of exploding the vehicle and moving it around randomly. Added to this is the fact that it can only take 2 rokkits max, so even if you fire those instead youre firepower is puny. Land Raiders are better at shooting things, have better armor, and can carry more models, all for just a few more points.

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Still staking my claim on Hellions.

But bloodbrides are slower hellions with less shooty!

But Bloodbrides can dive through trees and not die. They can also G2G and get cover saves from chest high walls. They've ALSO got grenades for charging into cover.

 Jimsolo wrote:

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Still staking my claim on Hellions.

But bloodbrides are slower hellions with less shooty!

But Bloodbrides can dive through trees and not die. They can also G2G and get cover saves from chest high walls. They've ALSO got grenades for charging into cover.

While that is true, even with cover they are going to die long before reaching combat, while hellions are terrible, but have something to from longer range.
They're both so bad, its hard to tell which is worse!

Hellions are worse because bloodbrides can have a transport and a good one at that in the venom. Where as tge poor hellions get nothing which is a shame as there models are excellent.

I think two or three of the bottom five units are DE. Easily.

 gnome_idea_what wrote:
I'm pretty sure that lifta-droppa wagons are worse than land raiders. The lifta-droppa is a 225-pt battlewagon with a transport capacity of 6, which can try to hit one enemy non-superheavy vehicle a turn with ork BS2, then if it hits it has a 1/6 chance of failing horribly, a 2/3 chance of removing d3 HP and nudging it gently in a random direction, and a 1/6 chance of exploding the vehicle and moving it around randomly. Added to this is the fact that it can only take 2 rokkits max, so even if you fire those instead youre firepower is puny. Land Raiders are better at shooting things, have better armor, and can carry more models, all for just a few more points.

It's still cheaper to fail utterly. It's close, imo.

Grey knights tech marine. He is a HQ that no one will EVER take

The Sanguinor. 200 list dollars for a glorified jump pack arty armor captain with a power sword...that can't join a unit. I don't think the rules designers understand how bad it is to not have independent character on an expensive guy.

Made even more hilarious by the fact that in fluff he does things like solo 3 carnifexes at once (shield of Baal exterminatus) which he could absolutely never do on the table without the weightiest weighted dice in all history.

He was much better in 5th.

Aun Shi is a pretty terrible unit for the tau, probably worse than vespid

 Jimsolo wrote:
He was much better in 5th.

he was essentially a DPrince, nice stats, EW, etc etc, how is he now?

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
he was essentially a DPrince, nice stats, EW, etc etc, how is he now?

Well, he's got a charge-out-of-DS formation and a Fearless aura. Pretty situational.

You poor Children, you think those are bad? Try Ogryns.
For 45 points you get a model whose sole redeeming feature is that it has a decent T. Otherwise it has no mobility, no way to deal with Medium or Heavy infantry, mediocre firepower, no delivery system, LD that might as well not exist and a 5+ save.
Compare this to Thunderwolf Cavalry which cost the exact same.

Ogryns are leagues more useful than a LR. A single grav hit removes one wound from Ogryns and makes a LR completely useless. 5 Ogyrns are STILL cheaper than the goddamn Land Raider. Ogryns also soak fire much better than marine terminators. There are a LOT worse units than Ogryns. You just can't compare to the best assault unit in the entire Imperium.

Martel732 wrote:
Ogryns are leagues more useful than a LR. A single grav hit removes one wound from Ogryns and makes a LR completely useless. 5 Ogyrns are STILL cheaper than the goddamn Land Raider. Ogryns also soak fire much better than marine terminators. There are a LOT worse units than Ogryns. You just can't compare to the best assault unit in the entire Imperium.

After doing this comparison on the 'fix Ogryns' thread in Proposed Rules I'm going to have to disagree. Ogryns are more expensive than Terminators, don't have anywhere near the damage output, can only take more fire if you specifically design the parameters to let them, and have Ld7 so they run screaming at the drop of a hat.

Don't Ogryns have ripper guns? That's better output than terminators. LD7 is an issue. It's been so long since I worried about LD in any shape form or fashion. I'd rather have roll LD7 than just be picked up off the table.

Martel732 wrote:
Don't Ogryns have ripper guns? That's better output than terminators. LD7 is an issue. It's been so long since I worried about LD in any shape form or fashion. I'd rather have roll LD7 than just be picked up off the table.

Three S5/AP- shots at BS3/12" range instead of two S4/AP5 shots at BS4/24" range. I'd say the melee problem (3 S5/AP- attacks at WS4/I2 versus 2 S8/AP2 attacks at WS4/Unwieldy for the Terminators) overrides that.

Also Ogryn are Very Bulky and can't Deep Strike, though they seem to have taken away the rule that they need a 50pt IC before they'll get into a vehicle.

 master of ordinance wrote:
You poor Children, you think those are bad? Try Ogryns.
For 45 points you get a model whose sole redeeming feature is that it has a decent T. Otherwise it has no mobility, no way to deal with Medium or Heavy infantry, mediocre firepower, no delivery system, LD that might as well not exist and a 5+ save.
Compare this to Thunderwolf Cavalry which cost the exact same.

Ogryns have S5 T5 W3. You are paying 45ppm for Warbosses (who normally cost 60 points) with short-range heavy bolters.

Ogryns are fine.

 Ashiraya wrote:
...Ogryns have S5 T5 W3. You are paying 45ppm for 60p Warbosses with short-range heavy bolters.

Ogryns are fine.

And Ld7, no way to improve on a 5+ armour save, no way to get a semblance of a useful melee weapon, and Very Bulky.

(Don't forget that this 'short-ranged heavy bolter' has no AP)

I've given up on AP other than 2 or 3 meaning anything in this game. Hell, the best weapon in the game is AP 6.

Martel732 wrote:
I've given up on AP other than 2 or 3 meaning anything in this game. Hell, the best weapon in the game is AP 6.

We know you've given up on AP meaning anything. The fact that there are good weapons with low AP doesn't mean that they wouldn't be better with higher AP.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
...Ogryns have S5 T5 W3. You are paying 45ppm for 60p Warbosses with short-range heavy bolters.

Ogryns are fine.

And Ld7, no way to improve on a 5+ armour save, no way to get a semblance of a useful melee weapon, and Very Bulky.

(Don't forget that this 'short-ranged heavy bolter' has no AP)

LD7 is standard for the IG codex so no special things there. Same with the save - use cover.

They are a low tier unit, yes. But most of their codex is. They are not special.

Martel732 wrote:Ogryns are leagues more useful than a LR. A single grav hit removes one wound from Ogryns and makes a LR completely useless. 5 Ogyrns are STILL cheaper than the goddamn Land Raider. Ogryns also soak fire much better than marine terminators. There are a LOT worse units than Ogryns. You just can't compare to the best assault unit in the entire Imperium.

Oh I know there are worse, but not many - at least the LR is IN the army with Grav.... Most of the time.
Ogryns just die to anything and everything long before they ever reach combat, and even when they do their attacks usually just bounce off the enemies armour.

 Ashiraya wrote:
...Ogryns have S5 T5 W3. You are paying 45ppm for 60p Warbosses with short-range heavy bolters.

Ogryns are fine.

They cost as much as a far faster, far harder hitting, far tougher unit, have no feasible way outside of FW to get across the board unless you take four Ogryn squads (and at that point you might as well not bother), have a 12" ranged cannon that has zilch in the way of AP and is often better at scaring the enemy than anything else, lose in assault to most basic enemy troops (IE, Tacticals), and will vanish as soon as they are forced to take an LD check unless you invest in characters to escort (babysit) them.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
...Ogryns have S5 T5 W3. You are paying 45ppm for 60p Warbosses with short-range heavy bolters.

Ogryns are fine.

And Ld7, no way to improve on a 5+ armour save, no way to get a semblance of a useful melee weapon, and Very Bulky.

(Don't forget that this 'short-ranged heavy bolter' has no AP)

LD7 is standard for the IG codex so no special things there. Same with the save - use cover.

They are a low tier unit, yes. But most of their codex is. They are not special.

Most of their Codex isn't 45pts/model.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I've given up on AP other than 2 or 3 meaning anything in this game. Hell, the best weapon in the game is AP 6.

We know you've given up on AP meaning anything. The fact that there are good weapons with low AP doesn't mean that they wouldn't be better with higher AP.

Yes, 2 or 3. But 4+ is basically all the same in practice. We are talking AP - to AP 5. There is little functional difference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"at least the LR is IN the army with Grav."

That doesn't make the LR good. In fact, that has nothing to do with the Land Raider at all.