Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
They are insane. I own 10 and I never use them, even against eldar and the such, they just aren't very fun.

They kill whatever they touch, AND, they buff your army.

And since there are shields sitting in the front, their 4+ armour is made irrelevant.

Sorry for your crappy experience though.

~Mikey

Luckily for me, I like bringing squads of two nightspinners. Wulfen get deleted the moment I get a turn.

fresus wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
People get pissy about wulfen because it's 7th edition and everyone's conditioned to see non-deathstar melee units as laughably gakky and points inefficient. "b-but they function out of the box? You mean they don't have to have their durability buffed to the point of it being impossible to harm them with a rerollable 2++ or invisibility? So OP!!" .

Harlequins have a ton of good attacks at high initiative, function pretty well out of the box. But people don't complain because they die like flies to any type of shooting.
DW knights for instance are durable, and hit hard in melee, but with fewer attacks and at lower initiative, so that's also fine.
Wulfen have the best of both world, plus their plethora of special rules. They even have a build-in insurance: if they die first in melee, then they get free attacks, just to be sure that they make their points back. Their only weakness is S8+ shooting, but not every army has that in their arsenal.

No, their weakness is that they're crazy elite expensive units whose assault transport options are either crazy expensive, inefficient land raiders, or a crazy expensive plane that gets them in melee at MINIMUM turn 3, if not later.

They make their points back in melee....well, unless you charge them with a disposable, much cheaper unit like Ork boyz....or a psychically buffed deathstar with solid invuln save, like screamers, or khorne hounds. But, as I said before, it's really quite trivial to take them out with shooting before they get to you.

Unlike Riptides, Screamers, necron wraiths, thunderwolves, black knights, wraithknights, or any of the other actual competitive tournament worthy things in the game, wulfen can be fought with pretty much any weapon down to and including mass lasgun fire.

 Pouncey wrote:


I actually don't know that rule, but I've heard of it before. Is it the one they stole from 5e Repentia Squads?

IIRC yes, but for repentia could have made sense because of the power level of the squad and of the army. Still...

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:


I actually don't know that rule, but I've heard of it before. Is it the one they stole from 5e Repentia Squads?

IIRC yes, but for repentia made sense because of the power level of the squad and of the army.

And now Repentia don't have it anymore.

There's a topic.

Stick to it.

 reds8n wrote:
There's a topic.

Stick to it.

Okay.

Wulfen seem really fragile and people claim lasguns can take them down. They're probably not worth using.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:


I actually don't know that rule, but I've heard of it before. Is it the one they stole from 5e Repentia Squads?

IIRC yes, but for repentia made sense because of the power level of the squad and of the army.

And now Repentia don't have it anymore.

before the last legion thing, was typical of SM ---> CSM. 2+ armor, legion rules (I KNOW I KNOW).

Now ironically the opposite happened in some instance: Blood Angels lost Assault Marines as troops, Night Lords gained Raptors as troops

36 lasgun shots per wulfen, yep. not the most points efficient way to take them out, but compare that to how lasguns do against wraithknights or riptides.

Complaining that wulfen are hard to kill with your equally expensive specialist melee units is like claiming basilisks and battlecannons are OP when you always move your models around in B2B contact in circular formation.

the_scotsman wrote:
36 lasgun shots per wulfen, yep. not the most points efficient way to take them out, but compare that to how lasguns do against wraithknights or riptides.

Complaining that wulfen are hard to kill with your equally expensive specialist melee units is like claiming basilisks and battlecannons are OP when you always move your models around in B2B contact in circular formation.

Personally, anything I face that proves difficult to kill receives salvoes of Exorcist rockets to the face until they stop twitching.

Occasionally I stop bombarding the area only once DNA testing to identify what species the remains are is no longer viable.

Your mistake was to not shoot them off the table like you did later in the game. There really isn't a whole lot wrong with wulfin

There are a couple units out there like that, Wraithes, Wulfin, Harlequins, World Eaters Beserkers/Terminators, Khorne Dogs.

They all die the same way, overwhelming firepower. Where you have to be careful is the shenanigans that can be done with World Eaters and Khorne dogs now.....those are much nastier. (Terminators with a 48 inch assault range on turn 1 are not something to sneeze at, and everyone knows the cabalstar with KDK Khorne Dogs.)

 gummyofallbears wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Wulfen are just infantry, so are TWC. Wulfen are way too good, so are TWC, but as you've said Martel, that's what it takes to make assault work in 7th ed.

Wulfen are really MCs erroneously catergorized as "infantry", imo. But yeah... it all goes back to everything good in marines lists now are non-marines.

I'll agree with the second point, but they really aren't MCs...

The only thing they have in common with an MC is multiple wounds and AP2... But they only have two, and T4.

They really aren't MCs man.

Monstrous Infantry

 sfshilo wrote:
There are a couple units out there like that, Wraithes, Wulfin, Harlequins, World Eaters Beserkers/Terminators, Khorne Dogs.
They all die the same way, overwhelming firepower.

A harlequin dies to 8 lasgun shots (8 shots, 4 hits, 2 wounds, 1 and a third failed wounds, 1 dead harlequin). 54 for a wulfen (54 shots, 27 hits, 9 wounds, 3 failed saves, 2 failed FNP, 1 dead wulfen). A wraith is definitely more durable, 72 lasguns (72 shots, 36 hits, 6 wounds, 2 failed saves) as well as being better against S8, but they aren't S8-10 AP 2 or guaranteed to get their attacks off. I'm not familiar with the rules for world eaters/dogs so can't do those, but I assume they're around/inferior to wulfen level and again, don't have the sheer power of wulfen or a guaranteed chance to attack.

There are obviously a ton of variables, like wulfen's vulnerability to S8, but they often have shields eating some of those wounds. All but the wraiths will likely die to the wulfen, depending on how many hammers they have against the wraiths, and even then it's likely it'll either wipe the wraiths or mutually destroy.

Khorne dogs aren't really that special. They are your basic attack unit that are beasts with a demon save. The only thing that sets them apart is scout when used in gorepack. Berserker so are just regular power armored marines that are WS5 and really really angry (probably due to their wonky and extremely old sculpts ).

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Khorne dogs aren't really that special. They are your basic attack unit that are beasts with a demon save. The only thing that sets them apart is scout when used in gorepack. Berserker so are just regular power armored marines that are WS5 and really really angry (probably due to their wonky and extremely old sculpts ).

Khorne dogs are pretty nice. 16 PPM for a 2 wound, T4 S4 WS5 model with 2 attacks base, Furious Charge, and Deny the Witch on a 4+? That's not really that special?

 jreilly89 wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Khorne dogs aren't really that special. They are your basic attack unit that are beasts with a demon save. The only thing that sets them apart is scout when used in gorepack. Berserker so are just regular power armored marines that are WS5 and really really angry (probably due to their wonky and extremely old sculpts ).

Khorne dogs are pretty nice. 16 PPM for a 2 wound, T4 S4 WS5 model with 2 attacks base, Furious Charge, and Deny the Witch on a 4+? That's not really that special?

Compared to Wraiths and Wulfen not at all. I mean they're a nice unit and I love running then with my KDK, but they aren't even in the same league as the other 2. One is nigh impossible to kill and the other will obliterate anything they touch and buff all fast movers in a 12" bubble.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Khorne dogs aren't really that special. They are your basic attack unit that are beasts with a demon save. The only thing that sets them apart is scout when used in gorepack. Berserker so are just regular power armored marines that are WS5 and really really angry (probably due to their wonky and extremely old sculpts ).

Khorne dogs are pretty nice. 16 PPM for a 2 wound, T4 S4 WS5 model with 2 attacks base, Furious Charge, and Deny the Witch on a 4+? That's not really that special?

Compared to Wraiths and Wulfen not at all. I mean they're a nice unit and I love running then with my KDK, but they aren't even in the same league as the other 2. One is nigh impossible to kill and the other will obliterate anything they touch and buff all fast movers in a 12" bubble.

I think that says more about power creep than about the dogs.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Khorne dogs aren't really that special. They are your basic attack unit that are beasts with a demon save. The only thing that sets them apart is scout when used in gorepack. Berserker so are just regular power armored marines that are WS5 and really really angry (probably due to their wonky and extremely old sculpts ).

Khorne dogs are pretty nice. 16 PPM for a 2 wound, T4 S4 WS5 model with 2 attacks base, Furious Charge, and Deny the Witch on a 4+? That's not really that special?

Compared to Wraiths and Wulfen not at all. I mean they're a nice unit and I love running then with my KDK, but they aren't even in the same league as the other 2. One is nigh impossible to kill and the other will obliterate anything they touch and buff all fast movers in a 12" bubble.

You've never actually read the Wulfen's curse rules.
Wulfen buff guide for fast units -
Blood/Sky/Swift Claws within 12'
TWC, Iron Priest ministar, Characters on mounts within 6'
Vehicles and Fen Wolf packs not at all.
On top of that if you spend the minimum 300 points on the Murderpack you bump your chance of getting the extra movement from 33.3% to 50%, otherwise your investment confers a heap of special rules that most of those units already carry.

I never understood the point of Wulfen.

GW try to hype up their weaknesses and yet negate them at the same time.

Only a single ccw - options for 2, 3 attacks base, rage. Huh.

Only a 4+ save - 2 wounds, FNP, option for Storm Shields.

No grenades - option for stormfrag assault launchers.

Expensive - 2 wounds, FNP and option for Stormshields. Really.

Footsloggers - can run and assault and have an option for a flying transport.

Oh, but Thunder Hammers make them strike at I1 - can strike back at initiative step if killed - can even do this if already attacked. They can basically pull off Thunder Hammer hits before I1.

Low BS - they don't use ranged weapons.

Like, really. Every weakness they have is ignored.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
I never understood the point of Wulfen.

GW try to hype up their weaknesses and yet negate them at the same time.

Only a single ccw - options for 2, 3 attacks base, rage. Huh.

Only a 4+ save - 2 wounds, FNP, option for Storm Shields.

No grenades - option for stormfrag assault launchers.

Expensive - 2 wounds, FNP and option for Stormshields. Really.

Footsloggers - can run and assault and have an option for a flying transport.

Oh, but Thunder Hammers make them strike at I1 - can strike back at initiative step if killed - can even do this if already attacked. They can basically pull off Thunder Hammer hits before I1.

Low BS - they don't use ranged weapons.

Like, really. Every weakness they have is ignored.

I've never heard GW try to hype weaknesses of any model.

Wulfen cost.
Storm Shields cost.
Assault Frag launchers cost.
Transport costs and negates the curse for two turns.
Wulfen are brutal but you need to pay points through the nose to make them absolutely nuts by which time you don't have enough points left for anything to benefit from the Wulfen's curse.
Close Combat weapon is irrelevant on almost all levels because all weapon upgrades the Wulfen take involve two hands.
TH/SS - Storm Shield makes model unable to claim +1 for 2 CC weapons
Great Frost Axe - two handed, can never claim +1 for 2 CC weapons.
Pair of Wolf Claws - Claims +1 for 2 CC weapons by being a pair.
The CC weapons enable initiative abuse with the hammer or axe.

 KingCorpus wrote:
They're tough yeah.

You can't beat them at their own game.

Good thing you got str 8+ guns on dark angel units.

Yeah good thing Guard and some other armies have that.

My poor dark eldar though mostly have str 7 max outside of blasters, dark lances and a void lance and one void mine (bomb) if you can hit with it and provided you take that over-costed flyer (void raven). Sadly most dark eldar Instant Death is in melee meaning whatever you send to murder those things only gets one turn before it gets murdered itself. Just gotta pray you spam lance and perhaps poisoned (even if poisoned won't do enough).

--------

All that said thunderwolves aren't too hard to kill but can move rather fast. I still need to get better and it's a rather shame that dark eldar are weaker in power level. I suppose it could be worse. I could be facing a dumber army like tau which can negate most of what i do and just shoot me off the table.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 KingCorpus wrote:
They're tough yeah.

You can't beat them at their own game.

Good thing you got str 8+ guns on dark angel units.

Yeah good thing Guard and some other armies have that.

My poor dark eldar though mostly have str 7 max outside of blasters, dark lances and a void lance and one void mine (bomb) if you can hit with it and provided you take that over-costed flyer (void raven). Sadly most dark eldar Instant Death is in melee meaning whatever you send to murder those things only gets one turn before it gets murdered itself. Just gotta pray you spam lance and perhaps poisoned (even if poisoned won't do enough).

--------

All that said thunderwolves aren't too hard to kill but can move rather fast. I still need to get better and it's a rather shame that dark eldar are weaker in power level. I suppose it could be worse. I could be facing a dumber army like tau which can negate most of what i do and just shoot me off the table.

Dark Eldar are one of the armies best suited for taking down the Wulfen though. Venomspam, which is the basis of most strong DEldar lists (barring Haemy Covens stuff) will shred Wulfen from across the board. The TWC are the big issue for us

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 KingCorpus wrote:
They're tough yeah.

You can't beat them at their own game.

Good thing you got str 8+ guns on dark angel units.

Yeah good thing Guard and some other armies have that.

My poor dark eldar though mostly have str 7 max outside of blasters, dark lances and a void lance and one void mine (bomb) if you can hit with it and provided you take that over-costed flyer (void raven). Sadly most dark eldar Instant Death is in melee meaning whatever you send to murder those things only gets one turn before it gets murdered itself. Just gotta pray you spam lance and perhaps poisoned (even if poisoned won't do enough).

--------

All that said thunderwolves aren't too hard to kill but can move rather fast. I still need to get better and it's a rather shame that dark eldar are weaker in power level. I suppose it could be worse. I could be facing a dumber army like tau which can negate most of what i do and just shoot me off the table.

Dark Eldar are one of the armies best suited for taking down the Wulfen though. Venomspam, which is the basis of most strong DEldar lists (barring Haemy Covens stuff) will shred Wulfen from across the board. The TWC are the big issue for us

Not sure how legit it was but he took wulfen in drop pods (you can take them that way right? The TWC were actually easy to murder though for me. Poisoned cuts them down to size pretty quick. I think he got first turn though which didn't help.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
I never understood the point of Wulfen.

GW try to hype up their weaknesses and yet negate them at the same time.

Only a single ccw - options for 2, 3 attacks base, rage. Huh.

Only a 4+ save - 2 wounds, FNP, option for Storm Shields.

No grenades - option for stormfrag assault launchers.

Expensive - 2 wounds, FNP and option for Stormshields. Really.

Footsloggers - can run and assault and have an option for a flying transport.

Oh, but Thunder Hammers make them strike at I1 - can strike back at initiative step if killed - can even do this if already attacked. They can basically pull off Thunder Hammer hits before I1.

Low BS - they don't use ranged weapons.

Like, really. Every weakness they have is ignored.

I've never heard GW try to hype weaknesses of any model.

Wulfen cost.
Storm Shields cost.
Assault Frag launchers cost.
Transport costs and negates the curse for two turns.
Wulfen are brutal but you need to pay points through the nose to make them absolutely nuts by which time you don't have enough points left for anything to benefit from the Wulfen's curse.
Close Combat weapon is irrelevant on almost all levels because all weapon upgrades the Wulfen take involve two hands.
TH/SS - Storm Shield makes model unable to claim +1 for 2 CC weapons
Great Frost Axe - two handed, can never claim +1 for 2 CC weapons.
Pair of Wolf Claws - Claims +1 for 2 CC weapons by being a pair.
The CC weapons enable initiative abuse with the hammer or axe.

You done need transports for them because they are fast enough to get there on their own. For 25 points more than a squad of Cataphractii you get a unit that confers considerable buffs and is all but guaranteed to annihilate anything it touches.

What you either don't understand or are purposefully leaving out is that the opposing player will be busy shooting at the wolfstar, grey hunters TWC and drop dreads. Your opponent will be too busy dealing with threats already in his face/dealing damage to focus down something that probably won't around to wrecking house until turn 2. Target saturation is their insurance. There is a reason one of our local SW players has won 5 of the last 6 tournaments.

Now I'm curious how Deathleaper and his unit of 5 lictors would do...Hit and run has perks.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
I never understood the point of Wulfen.

GW try to hype up their weaknesses and yet negate them at the same time.

Only a single ccw - options for 2, 3 attacks base, rage. Huh.

Only a 4+ save - 2 wounds, FNP, option for Storm Shields.

No grenades - option for stormfrag assault launchers.

Expensive - 2 wounds, FNP and option for Stormshields. Really.

Footsloggers - can run and assault and have an option for a flying transport.

Oh, but Thunder Hammers make them strike at I1 - can strike back at initiative step if killed - can even do this if already attacked. They can basically pull off Thunder Hammer hits before I1.

Low BS - they don't use ranged weapons.

Like, really. Every weakness they have is ignored.

I've never heard GW try to hype weaknesses of any model.

Wulfen cost.
Storm Shields cost.
Assault Frag launchers cost.
Transport costs and negates the curse for two turns.
Wulfen are brutal but you need to pay points through the nose to make them absolutely nuts by which time you don't have enough points left for anything to benefit from the Wulfen's curse.
Close Combat weapon is irrelevant on almost all levels because all weapon upgrades the Wulfen take involve two hands.
TH/SS - Storm Shield makes model unable to claim +1 for 2 CC weapons
Great Frost Axe - two handed, can never claim +1 for 2 CC weapons.
Pair of Wolf Claws - Claims +1 for 2 CC weapons by being a pair.
The CC weapons enable initiative abuse with the hammer or axe.

You done need transports for them because they are fast enough to get there on their own. For 25 points more than a squad of Cataphractii you get a unit that confers considerable buffs and is all but guaranteed to annihilate anything it touches.

What you either don't understand or are purposefully leaving out is that the opposing player will be busy shooting at the wolfstar, grey hunters TWC and drop dreads. Your opponent will be too busy dealing with threats already in his face/dealing damage to focus down something that probably won't around to wrecking house until turn 2. Target saturation is their insurance. There is a reason one of our local SW players has won 5 of the last 6 tournaments.

We don't take skill into account?
Wulfen move six inches, run between one and six inches then charge, that's hardly blistering speed, there were units that could move twelve inches then run and charge before the Wulfen arrived on the scene.
I've run a very similar strategy since April, my better opponents adapted to it within the month - two didn't even change their lists, just re-arranged their shooting priority, only the truly stubbourn scrubs are still moaning about them.
Wulfen have done wonderful things at my FLGS. MSUs are an absolute nightmare to a Space Wolves list meaning the IG players are laughing their heads off plus Tau and Eldar players are being forced to drop multiple Broadsides and Wraithknights for multiple sacrificial units to ruin the Wolves' advance because any melee unit is easily thwarted if it is forced to charge through units that cost less than it does.

Wulfen are crazy good at what they do. They may not be op, as the current meta clearly favors shooting, but they are so much more powerful than other c.c. elites troops that it screams bad design (and that's not even considering their speed and buffing attributes). I've run some simulation using my programme (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/707800.page)
and they simply crush the competition once they enter c.c. It doesn't makes for a fun experience


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

Exactly. The Death frenzy rule was just unnecessary and is, honestly one of the dumbest rules in 40k. They get a full round of attacks (at initiative) that can drop a damn stompa. That's bad enough. Too much for the points IMO (less than termies and Sang Guard) The fact that they can give everything with 12" movement a second movement phase is ridiculous.

This is why I think is really childishly designed. They gave the unit an axe that hits hard and costs significantly less than the TH/SS combination, and that strikes last unless you charge. So a melee unit can try to play well, maneuver correctly and pull a charge to counter these high strength weapons before they become too lethal.

But no. If you kill the model it will strike back anyway. Because reasons. Is a huge insult to other melee units, especially ones that pay for higher initiative, more than anything else.
It does not push a good gameplay or strategy either for the Wulfen Player (I pay less the unit, but for I strenght I have to play smarter) or the opponent (for the reason listed).

Well, at least LRBTs look good in that context

Agreed, stupid rule which, imo, barely makes any sense. Now, at best, you'll get a tie using other c.c. units, if they charges, your gak ouf of luck. Still, my main beef with them is how undercosted their weapon options are. 12 pts for a pair of storm claw which gives +1 S ??? 20 pts for a thunder hammer and storm shield combo (when most units have to pay 25 pts for a power fist) ??? 8 pts for a really neat ice axe which basically kills anything if you get the charge (and they will most of the time considering their speed)?? Get the feth out of here

In a truly competitive (or should I say broken) enviroment Wulfen are mediocre-okay at best. Hardly overpowered or even in the high tier of things you see in tourneys.

It sounds like your army was very casual, add in the mistakes you listed and there you go. Wulfen are fine.

 Runic wrote:
In a truly competitive (or should I say broken) enviroment Wulfen are mediocre-okay at best. Hardly overpowered or even in the high tier of things you see in tourneys.

It sounds like your army was very casual, add in the mistakes you listed and there you go. Wulfen are fine.

Wulfen ate fine because Tau'nar isn't a very convincing argument man.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
I never understood the point of Wulfen.

GW try to hype up their weaknesses and yet negate them at the same time.

Only a single ccw - options for 2, 3 attacks base, rage. Huh.

Only a 4+ save - 2 wounds, FNP, option for Storm Shields.

No grenades - option for stormfrag assault launchers.

Expensive - 2 wounds, FNP and option for Stormshields. Really.

Footsloggers - can run and assault and have an option for a flying transport.

Oh, but Thunder Hammers make them strike at I1 - can strike back at initiative step if killed - can even do this if already attacked. They can basically pull off Thunder Hammer hits before I1.

Low BS - they don't use ranged weapons.

Like, really. Every weakness they have is ignored.

I've never heard GW try to hype weaknesses of any model.

Wulfen cost.
Storm Shields cost.
Assault Frag launchers cost.
Transport costs and negates the curse for two turns.
Wulfen are brutal but you need to pay points through the nose to make them absolutely nuts by which time you don't have enough points left for anything to benefit from the Wulfen's curse.
Close Combat weapon is irrelevant on almost all levels because all weapon upgrades the Wulfen take involve two hands.
TH/SS - Storm Shield makes model unable to claim +1 for 2 CC weapons
Great Frost Axe - two handed, can never claim +1 for 2 CC weapons.
Pair of Wolf Claws - Claims +1 for 2 CC weapons by being a pair.
The CC weapons enable initiative abuse with the hammer or axe.

You done need transports for them because they are fast enough to get there on their own. For 25 points more than a squad of Cataphractii you get a unit that confers considerable buffs and is all but guaranteed to annihilate anything it touches.

What you either don't understand or are purposefully leaving out is that the opposing player will be busy shooting at the wolfstar, grey hunters TWC and drop dreads. Your opponent will be too busy dealing with threats already in his face/dealing damage to focus down something that probably won't around to wrecking house until turn 2. Target saturation is their insurance. There is a reason one of our local SW players has won 5 of the last 6 tournaments.

We don't take skill into account?
Wulfen move six inches, run between one and six inches then charge, that's hardly blistering speed, there were units that could move twelve inches then run and charge before the Wulfen arrived on the scene.
I've run a very similar strategy since April, my better opponents adapted to it within the month - two didn't even change their lists, just re-arranged their shooting priority, only the truly stubbourn scrubs are still moaning about them.
Wulfen have done wonderful things at my FLGS. MSUs are an absolute nightmare to a Space Wolves list meaning the IG players are laughing their heads off plus Tau and Eldar players are being forced to drop multiple Broadsides and Wraithknights for multiple sacrificial units to ruin the Wolves' advance because any melee unit is easily thwarted if it is forced to charge through units that cost less than it does.

Two things I should point out.

1. You are still looking at things in a vacuum from the Wulfen players side

2. A build centered around a single unit changed your whole fething meta. I haven't the slightest idea why you think crap like this is good for the game.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Runic wrote:
In a truly competitive (or should I say broken) enviroment Wulfen are mediocre-okay at best. Hardly overpowered or even in the high tier of things you see in tourneys.

It sounds like your army was very casual, add in the mistakes you listed and there you go. Wulfen are fine.

Wulfen ate fine because Tau'nar isn't a very convincing argument man.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
I never understood the point of Wulfen.

GW try to hype up their weaknesses and yet negate them at the same time.

Only a single ccw - options for 2, 3 attacks base, rage. Huh.

Only a 4+ save - 2 wounds, FNP, option for Storm Shields.

No grenades - option for stormfrag assault launchers.

Expensive - 2 wounds, FNP and option for Stormshields. Really.

Footsloggers - can run and assault and have an option for a flying transport.

Oh, but Thunder Hammers make them strike at I1 - can strike back at initiative step if killed - can even do this if already attacked. They can basically pull off Thunder Hammer hits before I1.

Low BS - they don't use ranged weapons.

Like, really. Every weakness they have is ignored.

I've never heard GW try to hype weaknesses of any model.

Wulfen cost.
Storm Shields cost.
Assault Frag launchers cost.
Transport costs and negates the curse for two turns.
Wulfen are brutal but you need to pay points through the nose to make them absolutely nuts by which time you don't have enough points left for anything to benefit from the Wulfen's curse.
Close Combat weapon is irrelevant on almost all levels because all weapon upgrades the Wulfen take involve two hands.
TH/SS - Storm Shield makes model unable to claim +1 for 2 CC weapons
Great Frost Axe - two handed, can never claim +1 for 2 CC weapons.
Pair of Wolf Claws - Claims +1 for 2 CC weapons by being a pair.
The CC weapons enable initiative abuse with the hammer or axe.

You done need transports for them because they are fast enough to get there on their own. For 25 points more than a squad of Cataphractii you get a unit that confers considerable buffs and is all but guaranteed to annihilate anything it touches.

What you either don't understand or are purposefully leaving out is that the opposing player will be busy shooting at the wolfstar, grey hunters TWC and drop dreads. Your opponent will be too busy dealing with threats already in his face/dealing damage to focus down something that probably won't around to wrecking house until turn 2. Target saturation is their insurance. There is a reason one of our local SW players has won 5 of the last 6 tournaments.

We don't take skill into account?
Wulfen move six inches, run between one and six inches then charge, that's hardly blistering speed, there were units that could move twelve inches then run and charge before the Wulfen arrived on the scene.
I've run a very similar strategy since April, my better opponents adapted to it within the month - two didn't even change their lists, just re-arranged their shooting priority, only the truly stubbourn scrubs are still moaning about them.
Wulfen have done wonderful things at my FLGS. MSUs are an absolute nightmare to a Space Wolves list meaning the IG players are laughing their heads off plus Tau and Eldar players are being forced to drop multiple Broadsides and Wraithknights for multiple sacrificial units to ruin the Wolves' advance because any melee unit is easily thwarted if it is forced to charge through units that cost less than it does.

Two things I should point out.

1. You are still looking at things in a vacuum from the Wulfen players side

2. A build centered around a single unit changed your whole fething meta. I haven't the slightest idea why you think crap like this is good for the game.

1. I'm looking at things from a once a month tournament player in a meta that changes quickly point of view. You are looking at things from a bitter Blood Angels point of view - You actually make Martel sound happy.

2. That build has been working since before the Wulfen dropped, ask any Space Wolf player who doesn't ally for Invisibility how to get TWC up the field and they'll answer Drop Pod Dreadnoughts in your opponent's face and burn away units of small arms fire, if anything it's centered around Thunderwolves and Dreadnoughts with Wulfen making the third unit.
Consistently curbstomping Riptide and Wraithknight spam, a grand total of two lists that have been solidly complained about for months with a list that's HARD COUNTERED simply by using more cheap units, the ones that Riptides and Wraithknights point at and delete, can only be good for the game, it sure has been in my area.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Runic wrote:
In a truly competitive (or should I say broken) enviroment Wulfen are mediocre-okay at best. Hardly overpowered or even in the high tier of things you see in tourneys.

It sounds like your army was very casual, add in the mistakes you listed and there you go. Wulfen are fine.

Wulfen ate fine because Tau'nar isn't a very convincing argument man.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
I never understood the point of Wulfen.

GW try to hype up their weaknesses and yet negate them at the same time.

Only a single ccw - options for 2, 3 attacks base, rage. Huh.

Only a 4+ save - 2 wounds, FNP, option for Storm Shields.

No grenades - option for stormfrag assault launchers.

Expensive - 2 wounds, FNP and option for Stormshields. Really.

Footsloggers - can run and assault and have an option for a flying transport.

Oh, but Thunder Hammers make them strike at I1 - can strike back at initiative step if killed - can even do this if already attacked. They can basically pull off Thunder Hammer hits before I1.

Low BS - they don't use ranged weapons.

Like, really. Every weakness they have is ignored.

I've never heard GW try to hype weaknesses of any model.

Wulfen cost.
Storm Shields cost.
Assault Frag launchers cost.
Transport costs and negates the curse for two turns.
Wulfen are brutal but you need to pay points through the nose to make them absolutely nuts by which time you don't have enough points left for anything to benefit from the Wulfen's curse.
Close Combat weapon is irrelevant on almost all levels because all weapon upgrades the Wulfen take involve two hands.
TH/SS - Storm Shield makes model unable to claim +1 for 2 CC weapons
Great Frost Axe - two handed, can never claim +1 for 2 CC weapons.
Pair of Wolf Claws - Claims +1 for 2 CC weapons by being a pair.
The CC weapons enable initiative abuse with the hammer or axe.

You done need transports for them because they are fast enough to get there on their own. For 25 points more than a squad of Cataphractii you get a unit that confers considerable buffs and is all but guaranteed to annihilate anything it touches.

What you either don't understand or are purposefully leaving out is that the opposing player will be busy shooting at the wolfstar, grey hunters TWC and drop dreads. Your opponent will be too busy dealing with threats already in his face/dealing damage to focus down something that probably won't around to wrecking house until turn 2. Target saturation is their insurance. There is a reason one of our local SW players has won 5 of the last 6 tournaments.

We don't take skill into account?
Wulfen move six inches, run between one and six inches then charge, that's hardly blistering speed, there were units that could move twelve inches then run and charge before the Wulfen arrived on the scene.
I've run a very similar strategy since April, my better opponents adapted to it within the month - two didn't even change their lists, just re-arranged their shooting priority, only the truly stubbourn scrubs are still moaning about them.
Wulfen have done wonderful things at my FLGS. MSUs are an absolute nightmare to a Space Wolves list meaning the IG players are laughing their heads off plus Tau and Eldar players are being forced to drop multiple Broadsides and Wraithknights for multiple sacrificial units to ruin the Wolves' advance because any melee unit is easily thwarted if it is forced to charge through units that cost less than it does.

Two things I should point out.

1. You are still looking at things in a vacuum from the Wulfen players side

2. A build centered around a single unit changed your whole fething meta. I haven't the slightest idea why you think crap like this is good for the game.

1. I dropped BA over a year ago, so congrats on getting your moot point across.

2. So to counter the worst of the cheddar, bring ghudda to the table. Still not seeing how this is good for the game. If they can tank and subsequently run over the cheesiest lists in the game they will have a much easier time doing that to all of the other armies. Wulfen were awesome back in the EoT. 13th coy was probably one of the coolest armies I've ever played. However now it's just a drum of fuel on the fire. Not only are the models hideous, but all of their "weaknesses " are counterbalanced by some over the top ability or USR on top of discounted wargear and being heinously underpointed. I mean I guess the only positive I can see is A CC army is viable in competitive meta again.

Enjoy your Frost Claws, and T1 charges chief, because I really don't see this discussion going anywhere positive. Im out.