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I'd say it made us better but
On one hand I'm sad my death guard got made so disgustingly good
On the other hand that's fine cause its pushed me towards doing the Thousand Sons warband I've always wanted to. Plus I can still do the Black Crusade detachment with their rules and have access to a wide variety of units.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Most MCs are T6 and 3+ armor.

The staff is AP 4.

Siphon Magic does nothing for ML 1 casters, Devolution is admittedly cute, and Treason rocks. The odds of getting a really good power are 1 in 3 still, a decent one 1 in 3, and a crap power usually still 1 in 3. The drawback is the odds of getting Doombolt are now 1 in 6. Alas.

Isn't Siphon Magic a Blessing and therefore can grant the unit a +1 on their Invuls? Or am I not remembering the Thousand Sons bonus correctly?

It wouldn't be good but at least it wouldn't be bad.

Siphon only targets the caster, a blessing needs to affect the whole unit to grant the buff. Regardless, if that's all you wanted to do [trigger the +1 invo], you might as well cast force since it not only targets the unit to trigger the blessing, but also activates force on your weapon, unlike Siphon, which does nothing for a WC1 caster except stockpile dice that he can't use.

In a Grand Coven, casters can cast their ML+1 number of powers, so siphon can have some use there, but only if you're casting WC2+ powers (so breath/devolution/treason) or it would have been easier to just cast your lone WC1 power instead of casting siphon. Ironically, it's only when you're taking something like a maxxed out war cabal that siphon comes into its own, but then, once you're doing that, you really don't have the points to turn it into a grand coven so you can cast that extra power. Yet another example of piss poor design when it comes to the Sons as an army. The fact that none of the tzeentch powers can trigger the blessing should have been a dead givaway that they weren't thinking at all when they wrote the rules.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
They certainly got much better and you can now officially build a fluffy army if you play any other legion besides Black Legion.

Some formations are very good and you can build a strong strategy behind some of them.

That being said, Chaos Marines are still a fundamentally flawed army in that they are a close combat army that has almost no transport options and most of the units available are still horrendously overcosted.

This summarizes it quite nicely.
Too pt pricey and no real transport options.
On the other hand, one can build a fluffy army with nice new models.

Although defacto giving them VOTLW for free did address some of the high cost issues

 Drasius wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Most MCs are T6 and 3+ armor.

The staff is AP 4.

Siphon Magic does nothing for ML 1 casters, Devolution is admittedly cute, and Treason rocks. The odds of getting a really good power are 1 in 3 still, a decent one 1 in 3, and a crap power usually still 1 in 3. The drawback is the odds of getting Doombolt are now 1 in 6. Alas.

Isn't Siphon Magic a Blessing and therefore can grant the unit a +1 on their Invuls? Or am I not remembering the Thousand Sons bonus correctly?

It wouldn't be good but at least it wouldn't be bad.

Siphon only targets the caster, a blessing needs to affect the whole unit to grant the buff. Regardless, if that's all you wanted to do [trigger the +1 invo], you might as well cast force since it not only targets the unit to trigger the blessing, but also activates force on your weapon, unlike Siphon, which does nothing for a WC1 caster except stockpile dice that he can't use.

In a Grand Coven, casters can cast their ML+1 number of powers, so siphon can have some use there, but only if you're casting WC2+ powers (so breath/devolution/treason) or it would have been easier to just cast your lone WC1 power instead of casting siphon. Ironically, it's only when you're taking something like a maxxed out war cabal that siphon comes into its own, but then, once you're doing that, you really don't have the points to turn it into a grand coven so you can cast that extra power. Yet another example of piss poor design when it comes to the Sons as an army. The fact that none of the tzeentch powers can trigger the blessing should have been a dead givaway that they weren't thinking at all when they wrote the rules.

Unless I'm mistaken, only a single model in the unit needs to be affected by a blessing to trigger it. The rule says "If a unit is affected by a blessing" so, since a single model is part of the unit=that the unit is affected by a blessing. At least that's my interpretation.

Siphon Magic is a pretty good power if it's picking up 5-10 extra dice each psychic phase. Warp Charge is expensive.

ML1 casters won't get much out of it themselves, but within a Grand Coven, casting a "free" power using Siphoned dice will return bonus WC to any other casters in range who happen to have Siphon active.

It's a small thing, but it's a possibility.

 Sasori wrote:

Unless I'm mistaken, only a single model in the unit needs to be affected by a blessing to trigger it. The rule says "If a unit is affected by a blessing" so, since a single model is part of the unit=that the unit is affected by a blessing. At least that's my interpretation.

That's a wrong interpretation. For example, there's iron arm that targets a caster. You don't get +3 str/t to the other models in the unit (unless they're brotherhood of psychers) from a wc1 power.

Keep in mind koooaei, the criteria is "affected" rather than "targeted".

This will probably be FAQ'd at some time. It can get surprisingly messy figuring out interpretations.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Siphon Magic is a pretty good power if it's picking up 5-10 extra dice each psychic phase. Warp Charge is expensive.

ML1 casters won't get much out of it themselves, but within a Grand Coven, casting a "free" power using Siphoned dice will return bonus WC to any other casters in range who happen to have Siphon active.

It's a small thing, but it's a possibility.

Very situational. First you got to cast it using 2-3 dice or you're standing a 50/50 chance it could just be a waste with 1 wc. Extra risk of perils. Than it only works for manifested powers from within a certain radius. Also very restrictive. Than it eats up your ml power limitation and you can manifest fewer offensive/defensive powers.

It could be used but it's not really amazing in an army that allready struggles with psy dice w/o daemon allies as the 1k son source of magic dices is very expensive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Keep in mind koooaei, the criteria is "affected" rather than "targeted".

This will probably be FAQ'd at some time. It can get surprisingly messy figuring out interpretations.

So, you say people can get iron arm affecting the whole squad? A neat 1 wc power indeed.

 koooaei wrote:
*snip*

I don't disagree. Siphon is a lot better on a character like Magnus -- no Perils, reliable casting on two dice, likely to be positioned centrally, can manifest six powers in a Coven, etc.

koooaei wrote:
So, you say people can get iron arm affecting the whole squad? A neat 1 wc power indeed.

Iron Arm affects one model in the squad. But you can argue the case that affecting a single model does affects the squad by extension. What about a unit of two ICs -- would this affect majority toughness? It gets messier when you consider auras that target an individual psyker but might affect 50% of the unit.

50% of the unit's characteristic is a set of different rules. We're talking about the power 'affecting' the unit. I think it affects the one it targets.

I'm not going to start a rules dispute here. I do think it will eventually receive a FAQ though.

We know for sure that you'll get +1 inv from Force as it's a blessing that targets the unit.

Anyways. Going back to Siphon, it is a situational power. But under the right circumstances it will reduce your dependence on needing to ally in WC batteries, which is a good thing.

It can squeeze a bit of extra wc if the stars allign. Not saying it's completely useless, it's just not devolution.

Indeed. but still thinking that any csm army focused on magic should have an herald and one unit of horrors.
The horrors are not just are a nice batery, they are perfect to hold an objetive that is far from the enemy melee units.

Been going through several hacks on proposed rules, but in the case of Siphon Magic, I like the idea of:

WC 2, Blessing that targets the Psyker's unit. If successful, the unit gains +1 Strength, and you gain D3+1 Warp Charge points. Call it Magical Might.

So it's basically like the old Dark Elf Power from Darkness spell. There's a point to cast it on an ML 1 Psyker, etc.

Franarok wrote:
Indeed. but still thinking that any csm army focused on magic should have an herald and one unit of horrors.
The horrors are not just are a nice batery, they are perfect to hold an objetive that is far from the enemy melee units.

Screamer stars can put so much pressure up front that those backfield cheapo units take on real value. I've seen that and of course now in the new book, you can have some REALLY powerful psyker stuff going on in the Chaos marine side of the list. I was kind of shell shocked the first game against it.

I played a game last night, off the subject of Psykers. I played my first Night Lords game wit hthe new rules. Because: Night Lords. Man, it was SO nice having that Raptor Talon. I killed everything on the board except the Storm Raven, which basically slammed on the gas away from me the last two turns to get Line Breaker. Ended the game 45-24. Lost a lot of Raptors which was typical but only actually lost one unit of them completely.

It was a good time.

Not sure how controversial a statement this is, but Black Legion now has the most powerful alpha strike in the game.

Abaddon and his Bringers of Despair automatically arrive first turn and can bring a Cyclopeia Cabal for Shroud of Deceipt. The Cabal can also bring Last Memory of Yuranthos for an 18 inch Nova attack. This is before taking a Raptor Talon that assaults the turn it arrives or a Terminator Annihilation Force with Heavy Flamers to shoot up opponents.

The damage output in the first turn could be incredibly high. It does depend on not mishapping, but there are a lot of ways for it to go right as well.

Well what's interesting is how many ways you can play Black Legion now as well. Multiple flavors of it to use.

The "Alpha Strike" is cool. I sometimes find that It is better to waste a round of the enemies firepower through null deployment depending on the foe so sometimes it will be useful, sometimes not. The fun part is the balancing of the codex against others BY having so many options in that way. There are some truly nasty beasts worth killing, and getting the jump on them is kinda important. The Tau Empire will of course get their interceptor and those with Drone Nets will laugh heartily at such shenanigans more than most. That's just one army though and against such forces you can simply go another route on strategy.

Eldar will be the ones who might find this new Black Legion a little daunting...

 Jancoran wrote:
Well what's interesting is how many ways you can play Black Legion now as well. Multiple flavors of it to use.

The "Alpha Strike" is cool. I sometimes find that It is better to waste a round of the enemies firepower through null deployment depending on the foe so sometimes it will be useful, sometimes not. The fun part is the balancing of the codex against others BY having so many options in that way. There are some truly nasty beasts worth killing, and getting the jump on them is kinda important. The Tau Empire will of course get their interceptor and those with Drone Nets will laugh heartily at such shenanigans more than most. That's just one army though and against such forces you can simply go another route on strategy.

Eldar will be the ones who might find this new Black Legion a little daunting...

multiple flavors of black legion is what really should make it work, the black legion should be the "ultramarines of chaos" if you know what I mean

 techsoldaten wrote:
Not sure how controversial a statement this is, but Black Legion now has the most powerful alpha strike in the game.

Abaddon and his Bringers of Despair automatically arrive first turn and can bring a Cyclopeia Cabal for Shroud of Deceipt. The Cabal can also bring Last Memory of Yuranthos for an 18 inch Nova attack. This is before taking a Raptor Talon that assaults the turn it arrives or a Terminator Annihilation Force with Heavy Flamers to shoot up opponents.

The damage output in the first turn could be incredibly high. It does depend on not mishapping, but there are a lot of ways for it to go right as well.

Multiple relentless units of grav devs in pods would like to have a word with you, as would quite a few eldar and tau lists.

 Drasius wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Not sure how controversial a statement this is, but Black Legion now has the most powerful alpha strike in the game.

Abaddon and his Bringers of Despair automatically arrive first turn and can bring a Cyclopeia Cabal for Shroud of Deceipt. The Cabal can also bring Last Memory of Yuranthos for an 18 inch Nova attack. This is before taking a Raptor Talon that assaults the turn it arrives or a Terminator Annihilation Force with Heavy Flamers to shoot up opponents.

The damage output in the first turn could be incredibly high. It does depend on not mishapping, but there are a lot of ways for it to go right as well.

Multiple relentless units of grav devs in pods would like to have a word with you, as would quite a few eldar and tau lists.

Grav pods would not like Night Lords I don't think. They would be badly disadvantaged. No target when they drop in and no Overwatch when they get charged. theyshow up to essentially get eaten. Hehehe. SURPRISE!

 Jancoran wrote:

 Drasius wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Not sure how controversial a statement this is, but Black Legion now has the most powerful alpha strike in the game.

Abaddon and his Bringers of Despair automatically arrive first turn and can bring a Cyclopeia Cabal for Shroud of Deceipt. The Cabal can also bring Last Memory of Yuranthos for an 18 inch Nova attack. This is before taking a Raptor Talon that assaults the turn it arrives or a Terminator Annihilation Force with Heavy Flamers to shoot up opponents.

The damage output in the first turn could be incredibly high. It does depend on not mishapping, but there are a lot of ways for it to go right as well.

Multiple relentless units of grav devs in pods would like to have a word with you, as would quite a few eldar and tau lists.

Grav pods would not like Night Lords I don't think. They would be badly disadvantaged. No target when they drop in and no Overwatch when they get charged. theyshow up to essentially get eaten. Hehehe. SURPRISE!

Time to start using Assault Centurions then...

traitor legions is a big improvement, the one problem area I'd say with CSMs right now is with the renegades. someone wanting to run a cosairs army around Huron right now is in a poorer place.

Honestly i my last game, i liked the fact that the Ravenwing player used his speed to get away from my Frenzied WE, and even then it was not fast enough( had good Blood Mad rolls, everyone advanced 7-12" and only 2 units rolled a 4").

Wish there was more to WE detachements then just "everyone becomes Zerkers lite and can Haul arse before game" but its not the worst of the bunch honestly.( even though i'd had hoped for a FnP6+ or something for the Butcher's Nails...)

the good thing is that all units are cheaper since the icon becomes redundant and seriously useless( if it still had the DS Homing feature that it had in previous editions...).

BrianDavion wrote:
traitor legions is a big improvement, the one problem area I'd say with CSMs right now is with the renegades. someone wanting to run a cosairs army around Huron right now is in a poorer place.

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if there were another book planned to cover different renegade marine groups... and traitor guard too... heck Dark Mechanicum as well. But yeah you're right, Renegades have the least going for them now and suffer more greatly from the CSM codex's overpriced point cost issues.

BrianDavion wrote:
traitor legions is a big improvement, the one problem area I'd say with CSMs right now is with the renegades. someone wanting to run a cosairs army around Huron right now is in a poorer place.

Renegades hijacked the CSM book several editions ago, they should never have even been there, C:SM would have been more appropriate for them. Glad to see legions finally reclaiming their book, shame that Nurgle is still the obvious favourite over at GW.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Not sure how controversial a statement this is, but Black Legion now has the most powerful alpha strike in the game.

An electrodisplacing/soulswitching wolfstar/kdk houndstar has a more powerful alpha strike than what Black Legion can bring. Or just a whole armys worth of Genestealer Cults.

Not sure about Skyhammer Annihilation Force kitted to the max and accompanied by other elements or gravturion spam in pods, but those are also contenders.

And none of these rely on not mishapping aside from Drop Pods, but they can be placed in a way that a mishap is not possible due to Inertial Guidance System.

A good alpha sure but not the most powerful.

 aka_mythos wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
traitor legions is a big improvement, the one problem area I'd say with CSMs right now is with the renegades. someone wanting to run a cosairs army around Huron right now is in a poorer place.

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if there were another book planned to cover different renegade marine groups... and traitor guard too... heck Dark Mechanicum as well. But yeah you're right, Renegades have the least going for them now and suffer more greatly from the CSM codex's overpriced point cost issues.

Also, anyone noticed that you can't take Fabius Bile in a Legion army? wonder if that's an oversight or not

BrianDavion wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
traitor legions is a big improvement, the one problem area I'd say with CSMs right now is with the renegades. someone wanting to run a cosairs army around Huron right now is in a poorer place.

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if there were another book planned to cover different renegade marine groups... and traitor guard too... heck Dark Mechanicum as well. But yeah you're right, Renegades have the least going for them now and suffer more greatly from the CSM codex's overpriced point cost issues.

Also, anyone noticed that you can't take Fabius Bile in a Legion army? wonder if that's an oversight or not

Actually that makes a lot of sense, since he went rogue and became a free agent. He's no longer affiliated with any Legion, and is thus outside of their "organization."