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Is this rule a basic rule?

"During a turn in which a unit equipped with rad grenades launches an assault, or is assaulted, the enemy unit(s) suffer a -1 penalty to their Toughness until the end of the phase(this does affect the victim's Instant Death threshold)."

Ceann wrote:It breaking the rules is your opinion.
Page 8 states wargear is allowed to subtract.
It is subtracting, what rule is being broken?

Just because it is allowed to do something doesn't mean it doesn't break the normal rules. The normal rules for Wargear is that they don't modify, just that they can. In order for it to be part of the game's rules, it would have to be a standard thing. -1T is not standard for Wargear.

In addition, the subject isn't about what Wargear can or cannot be doing, it is about what happens when they do the modification. Some Wargear do modify Characteristics, this is to let you know that these things happen, not as a standard accomplishment.

Where is the subject of Wargear in the rulebook?

Ceann wrote:I don't have my codex with me at the moment if you have some point you are failing to make about pistols then state it rather than alluding to it and wondering why I didn't come back with the bone you were looking for.

It isn't anything in a codex. It is a Weapon Type in the BRB.

Ceann wrote:Chapter tactics are identified on a data sheet as a special rule. From what I recall codex do not commonly have dedicated special rules sections, being located in the appendix is for ease of access. The important part is that it is labeled as a special rule.

In the section called "Appendix" it has a sub-section called "Space Marine Special Rules". The next sub-section is called "Chapter Tactics".

And again, it is not found in the rulebook's special rules.

Ceann wrote:What unusual grenades do is irrelevant, I understand it is a box with text in it. Above the box it details the circumstances under which you consult said box. Making a melee attack replacement is that circumstance, which we are not doing. Anything in that box is therefore void of relevance.

It doesn't say to address the breakout box. It says to look below in the regular run of the rules. Do you understand the purpose of a breakout box?

Ceann wrote:Only one model in a unit throws a grenade, that model does not make attacks, the others do. For assualt, they are not making a shooting attack, the rules for grenades assaulting is that they provide something when equipped.

Assault Grenades only work for the model possessing them, not for the unit which has at least one model with the Grenade. A Terminator Captain Charging through Terrain will be striking at Initiative 1, no matter how many Assault Grenades are in the unit.

But they don't have a Melee profile and your assertion was that they have to trade their attacks in order to use their special rules if they didn't have a Melee profile.

Ceann wrote:Is moving more than 6 breaking a rule... not sure if you are being intentionally dense here. Units have a unit type, each unit type dictates it's base movement and rules attached to that unit type. Probably why unit type is listed on datasheets. Weapons have a base type, heavy assault pistol etc and have the base rules for those types.

That wasn't the question. Is moving more than 6" breaking the game's rules?

Here is the answer:

MOVEMENT DISTANCE
Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase.This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace but stopping several times to scan the surrounding landscape for enemies, communicate with their commanders, identify the best lines of advance and so on.

It is perfectly fine to measure a unit’s move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else (even the opposite way entirely!) or decide not to move it at all. As you move the models in a unit, they can be turned to face in any direction, but if a model does move, no part of its base can finish the move more than 6" away from where it started the Movement phase.

Models cannot voluntarily move off the board.

There is nothing in this section which states Unit Type defining how far a model may go. By this paragraph, all models may move up to 6" and any distance more than that is breaking the rules. Unit Type is also not listed under Special Rules, but given its own section on any current army list entry.

The introduction only states that while these rules are for Infantry, it only states that other units may move in different ways, but nothing about distances.

Ceann wrote:It almost seems like you think there are a small number of base rules and everything is a special rule modifying those rules, this is not the case.

Actually that is the case.

The definition of a base rule is:

Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.

The definition of a special rule is:

Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule.

So, I am well aware of what constitutes which type of rule. I have been working with these concepts for quite some time now and have seen them evolve over several iterations. It seems that you are new to them as you can't seem to grasp how they work and have worked.

Ceann wrote:

 Tsol wrote:
Not particularly invested in such a heated debate, but I'm going to look up the Rad grenades rules right now and see what it says.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was very curious, because I've been playing alot of skitarrii/Ad Mec and combining Rad grenades with Vanguards and Infiltrators seems like a fun combo.
From Inquisition Codex---
"Rad grenades: During a turn in which a unit equipped with rad grenades launches an assault, or is assaulted, the enemy unit(s) suffer a -1 penalty to their Toughness until the
end of the phase (this does affect the victims’ Instant Death threshold).
-----
The wording to me reads fairly clearly that this does not stack, it would however stack with other modifiers, such as Rad armor or some other Toughness modifiers, but not with other Rad Grendaes, but I could understand why there is some doubt.

It does not stack if you have multiple grenades in the same unit. However it does stack if different units with them charge the same unit.
Please remember that Vanguard have a special rule, in their special rule section of their data sheet, called Rad Saturation.
Special rules cannot stack.


Rad Grenades however do not have a special rule.
Just like brain mines don't have one, or psyammo, or a psyocculum.
Note you quoted the rules exactly as they read on the entry, nowhere does it state they are a special rule nor do they have a profile stating a special rule that they have, such as luminagen, melta, haywire etc. Also grenades replace a shooting or melee attack, these do neither, it is just an effect that happens.

I see what you mean, but to follow that, you must make a very large assumption and do away with contemporary workings (which is wholly understandable, as this is from an older codex where their wording is not as careful and throughout as it is now). What I mean by that is, generally speaking, unless stated otherwise these things do not stack. And currently, new rules and updated rules explicitly state when they do or if they can. As mentioned just before, it may be unfair to hold this circumstance to current standards, but it's better to follow the rule of thumb and precedent than to hope for exceptions.

With precedent in mind and due to the wording of the actual wargear* (listed above in the quote). Which I fully admit, is indeed nitpicking and subject to time and even edition change, the description implies only one effect. But this is vague enough where I'm going to send a message to the GW community rule team and hope they respond because I hope I'm wrong and you are right. I would love to spam these bad boys with my Skitarrii Vanguards!

It isn't up to you to decide what is and is not normal. I would assert that wargear modifys stats all of the time. When I take a melee weapon with + str im modifying a stat. When I take psyammo I am modifying a stat, when I upgrade my PA to terminator armor I an upgrading stats. If I take a second weapon I am modifying a stat. Just because it happens to be a negative application in this circumstance you want to call it out as not normal.

Really? Obviously pistol is in the BRB, you still haven't made whatever point it is about the pistol that you were trying to make besides making nagging comments about pistols. My obvious intention was to indicate I didn't have the document on hand, but clearly that made no difference to you and a snide retort was required. So STILL alluding to whatever your point was that is too difficult to type out.

Chapter Tactics are listed as a special rule on their data sheet and apparently in the appendix also. That is wonderful. Rad Grenades are not listed as one at all. Go to the SM codex and look at the units data sheet. SPECIAL RULES : Chapter Tactics. Page 13 BRB. The Advanced Rules that apply to a unit are indicated on its Army List Entry. Looks the BRB notates it as one just fine. Not that a codex doesn't already supersede the BRB anyway.


Are rad grenades used as a melee weapon? No. Do you know what a melee attack is? The entire section from Vehicles, Gun Emplacements and MC's is all about explaining what unusual grenades are and how they work. It is an explanation for grenades that have to be "clamped into place to work" because normally grenades are used to make a shooting attack. Attempting to put it off as "its referring to the other physical page by saying see below" is obfuscation.

A terminator captain charging through terrain is not making a melee attack he is initiating an assault. You cannot make a melee attack with a frag grenade and per your scenario is he is not trying to do so, not that he could because it doesn't have a melee profile. He is also not taking the action of replacing his melee attack with a grenade. Not sure what point this was meant to make.

Is moving more than 6" breaking a rule. No. Page 62 BRB.
"So far we've discussed the basic rule as they pertain to infantry, the most important and common unit type." As they pretain to infantry, meaning there are basic rules that apply to other things that are not infantry, feel free to read the pages at your discretion. The rest of the section details the unit types, the basic rules for them, like how far they can move, and a section for each unit, and a section titled Special Rules detailing what...special rules, they actually have. Strange.

Hmm if they were ALL special rules why would it specifically tell us what special rules where there? And those same special rules found in the special rules section of the BRB? I wonder. Maybe because each basic unit type has its own basic rules, just like each weapon type has its own basic rules and anything that is a special rule is called a special rule in no uncertain terms. Or that we have only discussed infantry so far as the basic rules pertain too them...

Yes and you seem to think that a beast or calv is modifying a base 6" movement for infantry. However in the units section it clearly tells you what the movement for each is based on the unit type.

Are you well aware? You cannot seem to discern that the unit types found in the units section provide the basic rules for each type of unit. Or that things labeled specifically as special rules are the only things that are special rules.

Is there a rule allowing wargear to modify stats? Yes.
What rule is being broken? None.

Point me to the page, of the rule, that is being broken.







Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tsol wrote:

Ceann wrote:

 Tsol wrote:
Not particularly invested in such a heated debate, but I'm going to look up the Rad grenades rules right now and see what it says.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was very curious, because I've been playing alot of skitarrii/Ad Mec and combining Rad grenades with Vanguards and Infiltrators seems like a fun combo.
From Inquisition Codex---
"Rad grenades: During a turn in which a unit equipped with rad grenades launches an assault, or is assaulted, the enemy unit(s) suffer a -1 penalty to their Toughness until the
end of the phase (this does affect the victims’ Instant Death threshold).
-----
The wording to me reads fairly clearly that this does not stack, it would however stack with other modifiers, such as Rad armor or some other Toughness modifiers, but not with other Rad Grendaes, but I could understand why there is some doubt.

It does not stack if you have multiple grenades in the same unit. However it does stack if different units with them charge the same unit.
Please remember that Vanguard have a special rule, in their special rule section of their data sheet, called Rad Saturation.
Special rules cannot stack.


Rad Grenades however do not have a special rule.
Just like brain mines don't have one, or psyammo, or a psyocculum.
Note you quoted the rules exactly as they read on the entry, nowhere does it state they are a special rule nor do they have a profile stating a special rule that they have, such as luminagen, melta, haywire etc. Also grenades replace a shooting or melee attack, these do neither, it is just an effect that happens.

I see what you mean, but to follow that, you must make a very large assumption and do away with contemporary workings (which is wholly understandable, as this is from an older codex where their wording is not as careful and throughout as it is now). What I mean by that is, generally speaking, unless stated otherwise these things do not stack. And currently, new rules and updated rules explicitly state when they do or if they can. As mentioned just before, it may be unfair to hold this circumstance to current standards, but it's better to follow the rule of thumb and precedent than to hope for exceptions.

With precedent in mind and due to the wording of the actual wargear* (listed above in the quote). Which I fully admit, is indeed nitpicking and subject to time and even edition change, the description implies only one effect. But this is vague enough where I'm going to send a message to the GW community rule team and hope they respond because I hope I'm wrong and you are right. I would love to spam these bad boys with my Skitarrii Vanguards!

The newer codex, Imperial Agents has the exact same wording, so it is not a matter of consulting old text.
I will also point out that Rad Grenades are not even technically grenades other than their name.
They do not make or replace any shooting attack or melee attack, you don't even roll a dice, they just happen as a static effect.

Ceann wrote:
It isn't up to you to decide what is and is not normal. I would assert that wargear modifys stats all of the time. When I take a melee weapon with + str im modifying a stat. When I take psyammo I am modifying a stat, when I upgrade my PA to terminator armor I an upgrading stats. If I take a second weapon I am modifying a stat. Just because it happens to be a negative application in this circumstance you want to call it out as not normal.

I didn't say it was up to me. I am saying what the rulebook says. Nothing states that all Wargear modify stats, just that they can. Changing a model's stats is breaking the game's rules outside of any special rule.

Ceann wrote:
Really? Obviously pistol is in the BRB, you still haven't made whatever point it is about the pistol that you were trying to make besides making nagging comments about pistols. My obvious intention was to indicate I didn't have the document on hand, but clearly that made no difference to you and a snide retort was required. So STILL alluding to whatever your point was that is too difficult to type out.

I am not being snide. You don't like what I'm saying so you are applying an emotion to it.

Pistols carry the ability to count as a Close Combat Weapon during the Assault Phase. Is this normal? If so, where is this stated in the Shooting Phase or at any point that is not a Pistol? Why are Pistols called out for this ability alone?

Ceann wrote:
Chapter Tactics are listed as a special rule on their data sheet and apparently in the appendix also. That is wonderful. Rad Grenades are not listed as one at all. Go to the SM codex and look at the units data sheet. SPECIAL RULES : Chapter Tactics. Page 13 BRB. The Advanced Rules that apply to a unit are indicated on its Army List Entry. Looks the BRB notates it as one just fine. Not that a codex doesn't already supersede the BRB anyway.

Again, this is about "location". Relentless is listed as part of a couple unit types, does this make them not special rules? You are being very picky about what is and isn't a special rule, after all.

Ceann wrote:
Are rad grenades used as a melee weapon? No. Do you know what a melee attack is? The entire section from Vehicles, Gun Emplacements and MC's is all about explaining what unusual grenades are and how they work. It is an explanation for grenades that have to be "clamped into place to work" because normally grenades are used to make a shooting attack. Attempting to put it off as "its referring to the other physical page by saying see below" is obfuscation.

Whoa, big words there.

I am not trying to put it off. Do you recognize that "Unusual Grenades" is a break-out and the purpose of a break out?

In common writing, "see below" means either further down the page, or further in the book.

Ceann wrote:
A terminator captain charging through terrain is not making a melee attack he is initiating an assault. You cannot make a melee attack with a frag grenade and per your scenario is he is not trying to do so, not that he could because it doesn't have a melee profile. He is also not taking the action of replacing his melee attack with a grenade. Not sure what point this was meant to make.

You have a hard time remembering your own points then. You were going off about how Unusual Grenades without a Melee profile had to sacrifice their Attacks to use them. I've stated this a couple times now.

You were then saying Assault Grenades only needed to be used by one model. Hence the example.

A Terminator Captain Charging through Terrain will carry an affect with him. That affect will be carried with him when he goes to make an Attack. I was using a bit of short-hand phraseology which you are apparently unfamiliar with.

A Terminator Captain under that affect would not be affected by any other model's Assault Grenades.

Ceann wrote:
Is moving more than 6" breaking a rule. No. Page 62 BRB.
"So far we've discussed the basic rule as they pertain to infantry, the most important and common unit type." As they pretain to infantry, meaning there are basic rules that apply to other things that are not infantry, feel free to read the pages at your discretion. The rest of the section details the unit types, the basic rules for them, like how far they can move, and a section for each unit, and a section titled Special Rules detailing what...special rules, they actually have. Strange.

Hmm if they were ALL special rules why would it specifically tell us what special rules where there? And those same special rules found in the special rules section of the BRB? I wonder. Maybe because each basic unit type has its own basic rules, just like each weapon type has its own basic rules and anything that is a special rule is called a special rule in no uncertain terms.

Yes and you seem to think that a beast or calv is modifying a base 6" movement for infantry. However in the units section it clearly tells you what the movement for each is based on the unit type.

Are you well aware? You cannot seem to discern that the unit types found in the units section provide the basic rules for each type of unit. Or that things labeled specifically as special rules are the only things that are special rules.

They may be basic to those unit types, but those unit types are not the rules of the game. Infantry rules are the rules of the game. In fact, this is mentioned at several points.

The part you quoted from the BRB also continues on that the unit types only, "change the way they move", not the amount they move. Indeed, I actually pointed that out in the second paragraph.

Are you well aware that, aside from Infantry, all Unit Types are special rules and also carry what are called "Universal Special Rules". "Universal Special Rules" are the ones found in the back of the BRB before Weapons.

Here's an example of what I mentioned:

Infantry units include all types of foot soldiers, whether human or alien. A typical unit of Infantry is between five and ten models strong but they can be much larger.

In rare cases, an Infantry unit may comprise only a single model. Infantry are fairly slow moving, but can cross almost any terrain (given enough time) and make the best use of cover to avoid enemy fire.

Infantry are the most common and dependable units in Warhammer 40,000. As the bulk of the rules are concerned with them, there are no additional rules to present here.

So any rules making a unit not Infantry are special rules.

Ceann wrote:
Is there a rule allowing wargear to modify stats? Yes.
What rule is being broken? None.

Point me to the page, of the rule, that is being broken.

An example of when something happening isn't blanket permission, just how something can normally be found, nor is it standard practice for all Wargear to reduce T by 1. Just because Wargear can do something doesn't mean they all do. But all modifiers are performed by Wargear or Special Rules, and it is that part that page 8 is stated to concern itself with.

And has been pointed out, Unusual Grenades (the ones without profiles) are performed in their special rules. Kind of hard to perform special rules if it isn't a special rule or not carrying a special rule.

You are way to locked in to your definition of a special rule. Accept the definition provided by the introduction of Special Rules. Accept the definition of the basic rules of the game provided by Basic vs Advanced. It will cause less of a tendency for an aneurysm. Almost as much as ignoring a certain col.

It seems that compared to other grenades in the game rad grenades are only grenade in name.

It's very similar to a heavy flamer being an assualt weapon, just because it says heavy in the name doesn't mean it follows the rules for heavy.

Or an assault cannon being heavy, again we don't use the rules for assault weapons.

Meltabomb is a grenade but doesn't have grenade in it's name.

I'm under the impression that it does stack

GW has sent back an unsatisfactory no, for does not stack.

I'll quote them here."Hey ***redacted*** - well, we are not the rules writers, so we can't give you an "official" answer. But we usually play it here that things tend to stack if the rule says it does. This might be one that you have to discuss with your group pre-game and come up with your own house rule for."

That's the response I got. And to be frank it's not a bad one either. I'll play a couple test games with my buddy and see if the stacking is abusive and/or game breaking.

Full disclosure: I edited my real name out of the quote.

The good old meaningless play it as you like we dont make the rules answer

It has been out for years and is a well known loop hole

It is not breaking because it only stacks in separate units and so I have to have 4 inquisitors with 60pt of rad grenades make it in to combat to auto kill one squad of space marines and due to most players limiting formation you just can't get the volume of inquisitors to make it reliable

So your entire arguments are based on this fabrication that things that are not called special rules, are special rules, without being told that they are special rules based on your own opinion of if you think it breaks the game or not. All of your interpretations are based off this.

Page 5 Appendix
"The appendix contains a compendium of special rules, weapon profiles and psychic powers."

What is one of the definitions of compendium?
A full list or inventory. If it isn't in the special rules section or in an army list entry, or specifically stated, it is not a special rule.

Page 13 "Basic rules apply to all models in the game, unless stated otherwise."

I guess moving more than 6" would be stating otherwise now wouldn't it? It goes on to list pages and state...

"These are all the rules you will need for infantry models."

Not for all models, for infantry.

Page 156
We've presented them all in a SINGLE SECTION to make your life easier when trying to track down the effect of a particular special rule.

Not sprinkled throughout the book with ambiguous terms. ALL...SINGLE... SECTION.

Your note about infantry in the units section, they used infantry in all of the EXAMPLES to explain the rules, hence no additional rules are being presented to the player in this section because they just used those units in all of the EXAMPLES.

If it is not in the single section, or notated in its army list entry it isn't a special rule.

Ceann wrote:
So your entire arguments are based on this fabrication that things that are not called special rules, are special rules, without being told that they are special rules based on your own opinion of if you think it breaks the game or not. All of your interpretations are based off this.

Incorrect. Wargear carry affects that are called special rules as they fit the description of special rules, but since they are tied to equipment instead of an inherent skill they are listed under Wargear.

Ceann wrote:
Page 5 Appendix
"The appendix contains a compendium of special rules, weapon profiles and psychic powers."

What is one of the definitions of compendium?
A full list or inventory. If it isn't in the special rules section or in an army list entry, or specifically stated, it is not a special rule.

Page 13 "Basic rules apply to all models in the game, unless stated otherwise."

I guess moving more than 6" would be stating otherwise now wouldn't it? It goes on to list pages and state...

"These are all the rules you will need for infantry models."

Not for all models, for infantry.

Page 156
We've presented them all in a SINGLE SECTION to make your life easier when trying to track down the effect of a particular special rule.

Not sprinkled throughout the book with ambiguous terms. ALL...SINGLE... SECTION.

Your note about infantry in the units section, they used infantry in all of the EXAMPLES to explain the rules, hence no additional rules are being presented to the player in this section because they just used those units in all of the EXAMPLES.

If it is not in the single section, or notated in its army list entry it isn't a special rule.

Continue on with that:

Most of the more commonly used special rules in Warhammer 40,000 are listed here, but this is by no means an exhaustive list. Many troops have their own unique abilities, which are laid out in their codex or Army List Entry.

And then we have:

Unusual Grenades
Some grenades do not have a profile. Any effects that they have will be covered in their special rules. Unless specifically stated otherwise, these grenades cannot be thrown or used as a Melee weapon.

So, while Wargear isn't technically Special Rules in and of themselves, they carry Special Rules within them.

And Special Rules cannot stack unless they specifically state they do. The Rad Grenades do not state they stack.

Are rad grenades listed under an army entry as having a special rule? No.
Do they have a special rule? No.
If they had a special rule you could point out what keyword special rule it had, it has none. Just like an iron halo has none, it is permitted per page 8 to modify base stats and that is being done a rule is not being broken.

Chapter tactics is a special rule, as notated on the data sheet.
You have relics let's take for example a solar staff. It has the special rules blind and solar pulse, solar pulse explicitly states it is a special rule. It has specifically stated special rules attached to it, just like units or other wargear specifically have special rules attached to them.

Look at gloom prism, it is a special rule? No. It states it grants the adamantium will special rule.

Ceann wrote:
Page 8 brb, under modifiers....

Basic rules apply to all models in the game unless stated otherwise.

Does this effect apply to all models? Yes.

So all grenades reduce Toughness according to your claim.

Ceann wrote:
Are rad grenades listed under an army entry as having a special rule? No.

No, but they have one per the unusual Grenades rule. And they do something that not all Grenades do. Therefore, they have a special rule.

Ceann wrote:
Do they have a special rule? No.If they had a special rule you could point out what keyword special rule it had, it has none. Just like an iron halo has none, it is permitted per page 8 to modify base stats and that is being done a rule is not being broken.

Per the definition of Unusual Grenades. Keywords are not needed.

Page 8 is not defining the rules for Wargear, it is defining the rules for Modifiers.

Ceann wrote:
Chapter tactics is a special rule, as notated on the data sheet.

But noted as such where it defines what it is. That was the point.

Ceann wrote:
You have relics let's take for example a solar staff. It has the special rules blind and solar pulse, solar pulse explicitly states it is a special rule. It has specifically stated special rules attached to it, just like units or other wargear specifically have special rules attached to them.

Solar Staff is also a Weapon. Inquisition Rad Grenades are not Weapons. The Inquisition still carry some affects that are not part of the normal Movement, Shooting, and Assault rules.

Ceann wrote:
Look at gloom prism, it is a special rule? No. It states it grants the adamantium will special rule.

No the Gloom Prism is not a special rule, but it carries a special rule. It uses an already defined Universal Special Rule (USR) as it is already written out. Can you find the USR which defaults to a -1T? No, so it writes it fully out.

The point is that not all Special Rules are as exclusive as you think they are. They can be found in many areas of the system, and not just exclusive to the one section of the rulebook. This has been pointed out to you several times and you have ignored them.

Fragile wrote:

Ceann wrote:
Page 8 brb, under modifiers....

Basic rules apply to all models in the game unless stated otherwise.

Does this effect apply to all models? Yes.

So all grenades reduce Toughness according to your claim.

No, any model that interacts with this wargear in this fashion. No model is treated differently than others. Basic rules apply to all models.

Does skyfire apply to all models? No. Hence skyfire is a special rule, and no surprise it is located in the special rules section.
Can you name a model that would assault a unit equipped with rad grenades and not get -1? Then that would be a special rule.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unusual grenades is applied to the criteria stated above unusual grenades. We are not meeting that criteria. By your definition then an omnispex is an unusual grenade because it doesn't have a profile. Terminator armor is an unusual grenade because it doesn't have a profile. If this wargear was named rad bombs you wouldn't even be trying to make this as an argument and continually disregard the criteria for the sake of making your point.

You are right it is the page for modifiers and rad grenades are modifying. No basic rule is being broken. You have a fundamentally flawed understanding of what is and is not a special rule.

Yes the solar staff is a weapon, so it has a profile, assault grenades and other grenades listed in the grenades section also have profiles because they make attacks. Unusual grenades are grenade rule for making a melee attack with grenades that do not have a melee profile. Do rad grenades make an attack? No? None? Then they are not a weapon and do not have a profile.

Special rules seem to be exactly exclusive as I have stated the BRB definitely specified the exact location where special rules are located in a single section. It says there are others and guess what there are. Like chapter tactics, or rad saturation, or reanimate protocols, all of which are defined on their army list entry just like we are told is where they will be.

At what point will this thread realise that ceanne doesn't have a clue and is either deliberately trolling or genuinely believes black is white in the face of everyone agreeing and trying to explain it to him.

It doesn't matter what you say the logic of the arguments or the raw he's just going to disagree and it's a pity because his trolling clouds the real debate read the past 3 pages 4/5 is everyone explaining why he's wrong while he says I'm right

I mean, we have the definition of what a special rule is. It's not specific to any section or keyword. Changing the definition isn't going to help this discussion.

I am not trolling. There is clearly a vast misunderstanding of what is and is not a special rule and I am trying to clarify it.

Explain to me why the BRB states the section dedicated to special rules has ALL the special rules and that any other special rules will be found on army entry lists? And yes it does say the list is not all inclusive but the things like chapter tactics, necron protocols, rad saturation all of these other things that are defined as special rules in their own codex are exactly what the brb is referring too.

Why does it say this?
Why do army list entries have special rules sections if by your terminology anything that isn't a basic infantry rule is a special rule.

The only arguments any of you are making is vague insinuations that things are and are not special rules in contradiction to what the special rule splash page says and the special rules section itself which states ALL special rules in the BRB are located in that section.

How am I being the illogical one here?
The only things I have called a special rule are the things labeled as such.

You asked me do all grenades give a minus. That is silly. Do rad grenades threat all models the same? Yes, no rule is being broken. Does skyfire treat all models the same? No. Good thing it is a special rule. Does a pistol have a special rule? No.

Maybe you should try to clarify why I am saying you are wrong instead of just assuming you are correct.

.. are you reading the latest rulebook?

The special rules section actually says.

"Most of the commonly used special rules in Warhammer 40,000 are listed here, but this is by no means an exhaustive list.
Many troop have their own unique abilities, which are laid out in their codex or army list entry".

Sigh....

Skitarii vanguard, Special Rule: Rad Saturation.

We are told the ability of this unit, is a special rule.

This is a unique ability laid out in his army entry list in his codex.

Skitarii war plate, this is wargear that the skitarii vanguard is wearing it modifys his save roll, wargear is permitted in the brb to modify stats, he is given a 4+ save. Skitarii war plate is not a special rule.

See the difference?

I don't have the Skitarii book to compare, but if the Skitsrii warplate has an effect that alters the basic rules, it is a special rule. If it doesn't, it isn't. That's how the definition of special rules works.

Sir... Page 8 of the BRB states that some wargear modifys stats. This is a basic rule for wargear.

Rad grenades modify a stat, except in this case it is a negative modifier so people are upset with them.

No one can point to the basic rule that is being broken.
Rad grenades are not specified as having a special rule but people assert that it does. Even though the brb states where special rules are located. People are using their own ideas about what bending or breaking a rule is to use a special rule paint brush.

Ah, haha, yes basic rules intro text being used as a defining argument point. I like it.

I see what you mean, but that's not a rule saying "Wargear is always allowed to modify stats" it's just saying it can happen, and yeah there are examples of wargear modifying stats, but it's usually an inherent thing "represented on profile" or stuff like bikes and jetbikes.
The difference with Rad grenades, is they have rules text giving a specific situation where stats are aggressively modified. It's a special rule if e'er I saw one. The only reason it's even worth discussing is the authors got lazy and didn't give it a keyword.

As to why it even matters, rad grenades are a heck of a lot more common in Heresy games, so it can be a big deal.

Ceann wrote:
Right... because you won't claim where it has been used wrong. So you have an argument you wont make so therefore my argument is invalid.... lmao.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rad Grenades - During a turn in which a unit equipped with rad grenades launches an assault, or is assaulted, the enemy unit(s) suffer a -1 penalty to their Toughness until the end of the phase(this does affect the vitctims Instant Death threshold).

1. Rad Grenades are wargear.
2. Rad Grenades are not specified as having a special rule.
3. Page 8 BRB - Modifiers - Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model's characteristics positively or negatively...
4. No rule is being broken.

So what's the problem? The Rad Grenades rules themselves tell us everything we need to know, whether you want to call them a special rule or not. A unit is assaulted by 2 units with rad grenades? Is it a turn in which a unit is assualted by a unit equipped with rad grenades? Yes, so the unit suffers -1 toughness. Does is suffer -2 T? No, because it's the same turn, and it says during a turn in which a unit is assaulted by a unit with rad grenades there's a -1 T. It doesn't say -1 per unit assaulting with rad grenades, it's just a binary "is the enemy unit assaulted or assaulting a unit with rad grenades" yes/no. If yes, there's -1 T. It's a moot point whether it's a special rule or if it's an unusual grenade - the grenade description itself tells us what we need to know

 doctortom wrote:

Ceann wrote:
Right... because you won't claim where it has been used wrong. So you have an argument you wont make so therefore my argument is invalid.... lmao.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rad Grenades - During a turn in which a unit equipped with rad grenades launches an assault, or is assaulted, the enemy unit(s) suffer a -1 penalty to their Toughness until the end of the phase(this does affect the vitctims Instant Death threshold).

1. Rad Grenades are wargear.
2. Rad Grenades are not specified as having a special rule.
3. Page 8 BRB - Modifiers - Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model's characteristics positively or negatively...
4. No rule is being broken.

So what's the problem? The Rad Grenades rules themselves tell us everything we need to know, whether you want to call them a special rule or not. A unit is assaulted by 2 units with rad grenades? Is it a turn in which a unit is assualted by a unit equipped with rad grenades? Yes, so the unit suffers -1 toughness. Does is suffer -2 T? No, because it's the same turn, and it says during a turn in which a unit is assaulted by a unit with rad grenades there's a -1 T. It doesn't say -1 per unit assaulting with rad grenades, it's just a binary "is the enemy unit assaulted or assaulting a unit with rad grenades" yes/no. If yes, there's -1 T. It's a moot point whether it's a special rule or if it's an unusual grenade - the grenade description itself tells us what we need to know

I think that this is potentially the key point here, though I also subscribe to it actually being a special rule as well. In addition (heads up: HIWPI), the spirit of the rules is that things don't stack if coming from the same point of origin (rule, wargear etc) so it's unusual to expect that this example is the exception.

Special rules are notated as special rules. By what you are saying the first unit to assault a unit would get bonus attacks for weilding a pair of chainswords assaulting but the second unit wielding a pair of chain swords would not because the plus attack special rule has already been used. This is the same comparably scenario except with a plus instead of a malus. PER page 8 wargear can modify stats, these are some situations in which they do.

This is why the basic rule that is being broken by the grenades has to be identified, anything else is just speculation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xlDuke wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Ceann wrote:
Right... because you won't claim where it has been used wrong. So you have an argument you wont make so therefore my argument is invalid.... lmao.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rad Grenades - During a turn in which a unit equipped with rad grenades launches an assault, or is assaulted, the enemy unit(s) suffer a -1 penalty to their Toughness until the end of the phase(this does affect the vitctims Instant Death threshold).

1. Rad Grenades are wargear.
2. Rad Grenades are not specified as having a special rule.
3. Page 8 BRB - Modifiers - Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model's characteristics positively or negatively...
4. No rule is being broken.

So what's the problem? The Rad Grenades rules themselves tell us everything we need to know, whether you want to call them a special rule or not. A unit is assaulted by 2 units with rad grenades? Is it a turn in which a unit is assualted by a unit equipped with rad grenades? Yes, so the unit suffers -1 toughness. Does is suffer -2 T? No, because it's the same turn, and it says during a turn in which a unit is assaulted by a unit with rad grenades there's a -1 T. It doesn't say -1 per unit assaulting with rad grenades, it's just a binary "is the enemy unit assaulted or assaulting a unit with rad grenades" yes/no. If yes, there's -1 T. It's a moot point whether it's a special rule or if it's an unusual grenade - the grenade description itself tells us what we need to know

I think that this is potentially the key point here, though I also subscribe to it actually being a special rule as well. In addition (heads up: HIWPI), the spirit of the rules is that things don't stack if coming from the same point of origin (rule, wargear etc) so it's unusual to expect that this example is the exception.

The difference is that most things that do this have a special.rule that prevents them stacking because you cannot apply a special rule twice. These do not have a special rule, such as rad saturation.

That doesn't matter - is it a round in which the unit is assaulted by a unit with rad grenades? It's a yes/no answer, not a "count up the number of units" answer.

Your argument is moot. That criteria only matters if rad grenades have a special rule for the effect, which they do not.
If you can demonstrate what basic rule they are breaking feel free.

Ceann wrote:
Your argument is moot. That criteria only matters if rad grenades have a special rule for the effect, which they do not.
If you can demonstrate what basic rule they are breaking feel free.

It's not what they are breaking, it's what YOU are breaking.

What is being broken.

Ceann wrote:
Your argument is moot. That criteria only matters if rad grenades have a special rule for the effect, which they do not.
If you can demonstrate what basic rule they are breaking feel free.

Actually its about following what the rule of the Wargear actually states. It's based on if something happened in a time period, then there is no way for it to stack. If it happens based on the number of events that occurs, then it may possibly stack, except that it still has to state it stacks in order to.