Imperial Agents Rad Grenades

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**Happyjew**

Brother Ramses wrote:
Happyjew wrote:
Are there any grenades that say "see Unusual Grenades in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules"?

Not that I am aware of, but that point is moot. I don't need to show you that a condition exists for Rad Grenades to be referred to the Grenades section of the BRB. You need to show me that you have been directed to and have permission to do so with Rad Grenades. We do know that Frag, Krak, Melta, and Haywire require you to reference the BRB, however Rad Grenades do not.

In that case, the only grenades you have permission to use are those specifically found in the rulebook - meltabombs, haywire grenades, plasma grenades, krak grenades, defensive grenades, and frag grenades. Since no "unusual grenade" gives permission to use the rules for "unusual grenades" you are never able to use them.

**col_impact**

Ceann,

Answer the question please.

Grenades are a special kind of weapon. So the section on grenades in the BRB is an advanced rule, correct?

Spoiler:

**Ceann**

col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:

The wargear called rad grenades is not listed under the weapon section of the army entry list which is where a bolter would be, nor are we told to access the brb by the army entry lists either.

A specific model would be a space marine with a bolter, this is giving him permission per the entry to use the rules for the bolter.

Answer the question please.

Grenades are a special kind of weapon. So the section on grenades in the BRB is an advanced rule, correct?

Is the section for grenades noted on the Army List entry? No?
Is the section for grenades listed in the special rules section that presents all special rules in the brb? No?

Codex has precedence.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:
Brother Ramses wrote:
Happyjew wrote:
Are there any grenades that say "see Unusual Grenades in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules"?

Not that I am aware of, but that point is moot. I don't need to show you that a condition exists for Rad Grenades to be referred to the Grenades section of the BRB. You need to show me that you have been directed to and have permission to do so with Rad Grenades. We do know that Frag, Krak, Melta, and Haywire require you to reference the BRB, however Rad Grenades do not.

In that case, the only grenades you have permission to use are those specifically found in the rulebook - meltabombs, haywire grenades, plasma grenades, krak grenades, defensive grenades, and frag grenades. Since no "unusual grenade" gives permission to use the rules for "unusual grenades" you are never able to use them.

Forrest gump time.

Happyjew why did you come to this conclusion so quickly?
Uh... because the rules told me too sarge?
Dammit happyjew, your a genius!

**col_impact**

Ceann wrote:
col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:

The wargear called rad grenades is not listed under the weapon section of the army entry list which is where a bolter would be, nor are we told to access the brb by the army entry lists either.

A specific model would be a space marine with a bolter, this is giving him permission per the entry to use the rules for the bolter.

Answer the question please.

Grenades are a special kind of weapon. So the section on grenades in the BRB is an advanced rule, correct?

Is the section for grenades noted on the Army List entry? No?
Is the section for grenades listed in the special rules section that presents all special rules in the brb? No?

Codex has precedence.

I am unclear here.

Are you saying that when a player reads a Codex he is not aware of advanced rules in the BRB?

Or are you saying that when a player reads a Codex he is aware of advanced rules in the BRB?

Which is it?

**Brother Ramses**

col_impact wrote:
Brother Ramses wrote:

Off the top of my head, Blight Grenades. You follow the RAW of the Blight Grenades wargear entry that limits them to models with the Mark of Nurgle and tells you the grenades count as both assault and defensive grenades. In this we have a non-BRB grenade that directs you to the BRB to determine what counting as both assault and defensive grenades constitutes.

It doesn't actually direct you to the BRB though. It just says 'assault and defensive grenades'. How do you know to look at the BRB for what those are? It's the word 'grenades' that leads you to that section in the BRB.

'rad grenades' say 'grenades' so you similarly look to the BRB for 'grenades'.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:

And if I have a weapon named "chainfist" it isn't listed in the index, how do i find that?

First you must know what a 'weapon' is so you consult the BRB to know that, correct?

At which point you find out that weapons have profiles. You will find a profile for chainfist in the BRB.

Actually, I look up Assault Grenades (page 180) OR Defensive Grenades (page 180). I don't look up "grenades".

**col_impact**

Brother Ramses wrote:

Actually, I look up Assault Grenades (page 180) OR Defensive Grenades (page 180). I don't look up "grenades".

Those aren't in the basic rules or the special rules. Are you saying that the Codex gives you permission to look at the advanced rules in the BRB??

Spoiler:

**Ceann**

col_impact wrote:
Ceann,

Answer the question please.

Grenades are a special kind of weapon. So the section on grenades in the BRB is an advanced rule, correct?

Spoiler:

"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."

No?

We are not told grenades are a special kind of weapon. Please tell us where this is stated.

It states in the advanced rules section that advanced rules are special rules.

So you are asking me if grenades are special rules.
Do you see grenades in the special rules section? I dont.

The statement you are quoting lists examples so you seem to be confused but that's okay. Regenerating would be IWND. A special rule boltgun would be a combi boltgun like a combi melta that would have the melta special rule. If you don't understand general statements you shouldn't read them if the words hurt you.

Grenades are not special, sorry.

**col_impact**

Ceann wrote:

No?

We are not told grenades are a special kind of weapon. Please tell us where this is stated.

It states in the advanced rules section that advanced rules are special rules.

So you are asking me if grenades are special rules.
Do you see grenades in the special rules section? I dont.

The statement you are quoting lists examples so you seem to be confused but that's okay. Regenerating would be IWND. A special rule boltgun would be a combi boltgun.

Grenades are not special, sorry.

Ceann,

are you saying that all advanced rules in the BRB are in the special rules section of the BRB?

**Ceann**

Do you see something that indicates otherwise? Please share with the class.

**Brother Ramses**

Charistoph wrote:
Brother Ramses wrote:Cite page and rule that specifically shows "Blight Grenades" in the BRB.

Look dude, you tried for a gotcha question telling me to show you a non-BRB Grenades that directs you to the BRB. I caught you with your pants down and now you are fumbling your response by trying to change what you asked for and saying now even going so far as to openly lie about Blight Grenades being in the BRB. I answered your question exactly as to what you requested, pull up your pants and move on.

Wrong direction. You presented the evidence yourself and you are now ignoring it.

"Blight Grenades count as both assault and defensive grenades." What are assault and defensive grenades? Where can the be found? The rules for assault and defensive grenades are not found in the Chaos Marine codex. I look in the BRB and I find them there.

Therefore, Blight Grenades are just a form of BRB Grenades that are combined in to one entry and given a new name.

Therefore, try again.

More importantly than that, Unusual Grenades, whether Rad Grenades invokes them or not, adequately demonstrate that a Wargear can carry special rules, and as we see for the Assault Grenades use in Assault, they may not be any USR but unique to that Wargear in question.

Ceann wrote:
xlDuke wrote:
You don't need explicit permission to look in the rule book, it's the book you look in to find out about rules.

Actually you are wrong and do not know the rules.
I explained all of it in the above you did not point out where a flaw was. You can look at the rulebook all you like.

Basic vs advanced rules located in the BRB tell you the basic rules that always apply. Grenades do not always apply.
Advanced rules tell us the codex has precedence. You are only permitted to consult the BRB in relation to codex material only when you are explicitly directed too by the codex. Those rules otherwise effectively do not exist.

Basic rules do not always apply. Assault Rules do not apply while doing Movement. Shooting Rules do not apply during Movement. Movement Rules do not apply during Shooting, except if you Run. Shooting Rules in Assault only apply for Overwatch.

You are often to refer to the BRB for many things. Sometimes it is to find out if they are actually providing a conflict. Sometimes it is because another rule is being referenced, such as the timing for a Charge with Rad Grenades. Sometimes it is how it relates to other rules in the game.

Not referencing the BRB just because you aren't specifically told is faulty logic.

Dude, are Blight Grenades an entry in the BRB? You asked for a non-BRB grenade that directed you to the BRB. I gave you exactly what you asked for, Blight Grenades aka a non-BRB grenade (you can't cite a page it is listed on in the BRB) whose entry tells you to count them as Assault and Defensive Grenades, both which are in the BRB that you need to reference to use the Blight Grenades. Now you are saying they are just a BRB grenades, combined with a new name which, wait for it........................makes them a non-BRB grenade. No grenade in the BRB combines both Assault and Defensive with a limitation to models with the Mark of Nurgle. By its very description it is not a BRB grenade. You got schooled thinking there wasn't one and when I showed you one, now you backtrack and just flat out ignore that it is not in the BRB.

**col_impact**

Ceann wrote:
Do you see something that indicates otherwise? Please share with the class.

What is a jump unit type?

Is that a basic rule? Is that a special rule? Or is that an advanced rule?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Dude, are Blight Grenades an entry in the BRB? You asked for a non-BRB grenade that directed you to the BRB. I gave you exactly what you asked for, Blight Grenades aka a non-BRB grenade (you can't cite a page it is listed on in the BRB) whose entry tells you to count them as Assault and Defensive Grenades, both which are in the BRB that you need to reference to use the Blight Grenades. Now you are saying they are just a BRB grenades, combined with a new name which, wait for it........................makes them a non-BRB grenade. No grenade in the BRB combines both Assault and Defensive with a limitation to models with the Mark of Nurgle. By its very description it is not a BRB grenade. You got schooled thinking there wasn't one and when I showed you one, now you backtrack and just flat out ignore that it is not in the BRB.

How are you accessing the rules for assault and defensive grenades? Those rules are not in the basic rules or the special rules. The rules for assault and defensive grenades are advanced rules which are off-limits according to you.

**Charistoph**

Ceann wrote:
Please go read the page buddy.
It states those rules apply to all models. It doesnt say you apply them in phases they aren't relevant in. That is just a line of foolish statements you are making to try and make what is stated there sound silly, which it is not. This is a poorly made argument on your part. Please come back with something more concrete.

You brought up the fact that basic rules always apply, not me.

Ceann wrote:
As for the grenades notice the difference? Blight grenades tell you to check the BRB, so you can! They also directly refer you to check the BRB for those rules.

Rad grenades do not tell you to check the brb so you cannot.

That was not the point of the exercise. The point was to find a Grenade that refers back to the BRB that isn't a BRB grenade.

**Ceann**

They do always apply to those models just because you are not currently using them doesn't make them not exist. They just have no relevance in the phase. I thought engaging in word soup was below you, are you bringing up nouns and vowels next?

Well you found a grenade that refers back to the brb however per advanced vs basic it provides the correct reference for the grenades section for those types which is exactly RAW.

**col_impact**

Ceann,

Is the Jump unit type a basic rule, an advanced rule, or a special rule?

**Ceann**

col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:
Do you see something that indicates otherwise? Please share with the class.

What is a jump unit type?

Is that a basic rule? Is that a special rule? Or is that an advanced rule?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Dude, are Blight Grenades an entry in the BRB? You asked for a non-BRB grenade that directed you to the BRB. I gave you exactly what you asked for, Blight Grenades aka a non-BRB grenade (you can't cite a page it is listed on in the BRB) whose entry tells you to count them as Assault and Defensive Grenades, both which are in the BRB that you need to reference to use the Blight Grenades. Now you are saying they are just a BRB grenades, combined with a new name which, wait for it........................makes them a non-BRB grenade. No grenade in the BRB combines both Assault and Defensive with a limitation to models with the Mark of Nurgle. By its very description it is not a BRB grenade. You got schooled thinking there wasn't one and when I showed you one, now you backtrack and just flat out ignore that it is not in the BRB.

How are you accessing the rules for assault and defensive grenades? Those rules are not in the basic rules or the special rules. The rules for assault and defensive grenades are advanced rules which are off-limits according to you.

Dear col. The rules for jump units are included in the movement rules that apply to all models. The army list entry details the unit type for you. This is explained in basic vs advanced.

We access assault and defensive grenades because the codex has a footnote telling us to do so, then we do so.

**col_impact**

Ceann wrote:

Dear col. The rules for jump units are included in the movement rules that apply to all models. The army list entry details the unit type for you.

The rules for Jump, Jet Pack, Flying Monstrous Creature, Beast etc, are in the Unit Type section of the BRB.

The Unit Type section is not a part of the basic rules.

The Unit Type section is not a part of the special rules.

Is the Unit Type section part of the advanced rules?

When a player reads a Codex is he or is he not aware of the advanced rules in the BRB?

**Ceann**

Lmao.

The codex or army list entry has precedence.
Does the army list entry state what type of unit is on the entry?
Yes?
Then you can access those rules.
Because per basic vs advanced you access the listed basic rules and any rules listed in the codex or army list entry.
My assault marines are a jump unit.
The list entry says jump unit for unit type.
I may access the unit type for rules.

Why are you complicating this it's quite simple.

**col_impact**

Ceann wrote:

We access assault and defensive grenades because the codex has a footnote telling us to do so, then we do so.

The Codex just says "Blight grenades count as both assault and defense grenades"

Unless the reader of the Codex is aware of the grenade section in the BRB 'assault and defense grenades' is meaningless. Are you saying that the reader of the Codex is aware of the grenade section in the BRB?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:
Lmao.

The codex or army list entry has precedence.
Does the army list entry state what type of unit is on the entry?
Yes?
Then you can access those rules.
Because per basic vs advanced you access the listed basic rules and any rules listed in the codex or army list entry.
My assault marines are a jump unit.
The list entry says jump unit for unit type.
I may access the unit type for rules.

Why are you complicating this it's quite simple.

So you are admitting that a reader of a Codex is aware of the advanced rules in the BRB and has access to the advanced rules in the BRB?

**Ceann**

The reader can read whatever they want col.
Only what is listed on its army list entry, codex, or the aforementioned basic rules that apply to all models.

Those are the rules that apply.

Everything listed on the data sheet you can access.
Do you not understand the words of basic vs advanced?
We are supposed to be discussing rad grenades here col.
If you need help understanding the rules you should read them all.

**col_impact**

Ceann,

so if a Codex mentions something that is an advanced rule in the BRB without an explicit page reference to the BRB, the player has no problem accessing that advanced rule, correct?

So basically the reader of a Codex is aware of and has access to just about anything in the BRB, correct?

**Ceann**

The index is not a rule Col.
We are not going back to word soup.

Show me the page that tells you the index is a rule.

**col_impact**

Ceann wrote:
The index is not a rule Col.
We are not going back to word soup.

Show me the page that tells you the index is a rule.

Who said anything about index?

Ceann, are there any sections (e..g the Unit Types section) in the BRB that a reader of Codex is blind to and cannot access and disallowed from knowing?

**Ceann**

Col.

I am having trouble understanding if your mind works correctly.

Do you know what an ARMY LIST ENTRY is?
Basic vs advanced details what rules you are permitted to use, if you don't know then I suggest you go read it.

The ARMY LIST ENTRY will state a unit type for the entry that you are currently using your eyeballs to look at. The unit type that is listed on the data sheet is the unit type rules you are permitted to consult.

**Charistoph**

Ceann wrote:They do always apply to those models just because you are not currently using them doesn't make them not exist. They just have no relevance in the phase. I thought engaging in word soup was below you, are you bringing up nouns and vowels next?

Just saying that the definition of Basic rules does not say any such thing. You want to talk about word soup? Don't inject any of your own.

Ceann wrote:Well you found a grenade that refers back to the brb however per advanced vs basic it provides the correct reference for the grenades section for those types which is exactly RAW.

Missing the point of the exercise. Can you identify a non-BRB Grenade that tells you to refer back to the Grenades section of the BRB?

The point was why you wouldn't be referring to Grenades at all.

**col_impact**

Ceann wrote:
Col.

I am having trouble understanding if your mind works correctly.

Do you know what an ARMY LIST ENTRY is?
Basic vs advanced details what rules you are permitted to use, if you don't know then I suggest you go read it.

The ARMY LIST ENTRY will state a unit type for the entry that you are currently using your eyeballs to look at. The unit type that is listed on the data sheet is the unit type rules you are permitted to consult.

Just answer the question.

Ceann, are there any sections (e..g the Unit Types section) in the BRB that a reader of a Codex is blind to and cannot access and is disallowed from knowing?

**Ceann**

col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:

We access assault and defensive grenades because the codex has a footnote telling us to do so, then we do so.

The Codex just says "Blight grenades count as both assault and defense grenades"

Unless the reader of the Codex is aware of the grenade section in the BRB 'assault and defense grenades' is meaningless. Are you saying that the reader of the Codex is aware of the grenade section in the BRB?

Col,

Did you even look at the page for blight grenades?
What does it say at the top left corner?

Rules for the following grenades can be found in the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook:
Frag grenades*
* See assault grenades
Krak grenades
Melta bombs

Per basic vs advanced, the codex has precedence, the army list entry directs you to the page of the codex and the codex tells you to consult the BRB.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:
Col.

I am having trouble understanding if your mind works correctly.

Do you know what an ARMY LIST ENTRY is?
Basic vs advanced details what rules you are permitted to use, if you don't know then I suggest you go read it.

The ARMY LIST ENTRY will state a unit type for the entry that you are currently using your eyeballs to look at. The unit type that is listed on the data sheet is the unit type rules you are permitted to consult.

Just answer the question.

Ceann, are there any sections (e..g the Unit Types section) in the BRB that a reader of a Codex is blind to and cannot access and is disallowed from knowing?

Make your point Col.
I am not engaging in word soup.

You can start the sentence with something along the lines of "Well if you cannot access X then how..." or some other similiar statement.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:
Ceann wrote:They do always apply to those models just because you are not currently using them doesn't make them not exist. They just have no relevance in the phase. I thought engaging in word soup was below you, are you bringing up nouns and vowels next?

Just saying that the definition of Basic rules does not say any such thing. You want to talk about word soup? Don't inject any of your own.

Ceann wrote:Well you found a grenade that refers back to the brb however per advanced vs basic it provides the correct reference for the grenades section for those types which is exactly RAW.

Missing the point of the exercise. Can you identify a non-BRB Grenade that tells you to refer back to the Grenades section of the BRB?

The point was why you wouldn't be referring to Grenades at all.

Did you even look at the page for blight grenades?
What does it say at the top left corner?

Rules for the following grenades can be found in the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook:
Frag grenades*
* See assault grenades
Krak grenades
Melta bombs

The codex is telling you to do this, so you do this.

For rad grenades is the codex telling you to do that?
No, it is not.

**col_impact**

Ceann wrote:
col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:

We access assault and defensive grenades because the codex has a footnote telling us to do so, then we do so.

The Codex just says "Blight grenades count as both assault and defense grenades"

Unless the reader of the Codex is aware of the grenade section in the BRB 'assault and defense grenades' is meaningless. Are you saying that the reader of the Codex is aware of the grenade section in the BRB?

Col,

Did you even look at the page for blight grenades?
What does it say at the top left corner?

Rules for the following grenades can be found in the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook:
Frag grenades*
* See assault grenades
Krak grenades
Melta bombs

Per basic vs advanced, the codex has precedence, the army list entry directs you to the page of the codex and the codex tells you to consult the BRB.

So for Frag grenades, Krak grenades, and Melta bombs the Codex gives you explicit permission to check the BRB. But permission is not explicitly given by the Codex to check the BRB for assault or defensive grenades, correct?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:
[

col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:
Col.

I am having trouble understanding if your mind works correctly.

Do you know what an ARMY LIST ENTRY is?
Basic vs advanced details what rules you are permitted to use, if you don't know then I suggest you go read it.

The ARMY LIST ENTRY will state a unit type for the entry that you are currently using your eyeballs to look at. The unit type that is listed on the data sheet is the unit type rules you are permitted to consult.

Just answer the question.

Ceann, are there any sections (e..g the Unit Types section) in the BRB that a reader of a Codex is blind to and cannot access and is disallowed from knowing?

Make your point Col.
I am not engaging in word soup.

You can start the sentence with something along the lines of "Well if you cannot access X then how..." or some other similiar statement.

Ceann,

It's a straight question. Just answer it.

Are there any sections (e..g the Unit Types section) in the BRB that a reader of a Codex is blind to and cannot access and is disallowed from knowing?

**Ceann**

So for Frag grenades, Krak grenades, and Melta bombs the Codex gives you explicit permission to check the BRB. But permission is not explicitly given by the Codex to check the BRB for assault or defensive grenades, correct?

It has *Assault grenades doesn't it? So you can access assault grenades. Not defensive grenades, not haywire grenades, not pulse grenades, not grandma's favorite grenade, not holy hand grenade.
Assault grenades, IN REFERENCE, to Blight grenades.

Why would you be blind to the units section col?
The rules in the unit section dictate the "movement, shooting, assault and morale" rules for those types of models.
The army list entry also provides the unit type of any given unit, so you have permission from there as well.

If you have a point make it.

**col_impact**

Ceann wrote:
So for Frag grenades, Krak grenades, and Melta bombs the Codex gives you explicit permission to check the BRB. But permission is not explicitly given by the Codex to check the BRB for assault or defensive grenades, correct?

It has *Assault grenades doesn't it? So you can access assault grenades. Not defensive grenades, not haywire grenades, not pulse grenades, not grandma's favorite grenade, not holy hand grenade.

Why would you be blind to the units section col?
The rules in the unit section dictate the "movement, shooting, assault and morale" rules for those types of units.

The asterix for assault grenades is only applying to Frag grenades as it is written (Frag grenades* // * See assault grenades) . Blight grenades do not mention Frag grenades.

So according to you Blight grenades do not have any abilities since the reader of a Codex cannot access 'assault grenades' or 'defensive grenades', correct?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:

Why would you be blind to the units section col?
The rules in the unit section dictate the "movement, shooting, assault and morale" rules for those types of models.
The army list entry also provides the unit type of any given unit, so you have permission from there as well.

If you have a point make it.

Just answer the question.

Are there any sections in the BRB that a reader of a Codex is blind to and cannot access and is disallowed from knowing?

**Ceann**

LMAO.

Do you even have rulebooks?
Or do you just invent anything that you wish?

Other units in the CODEX have frag grenades, so in the armory section where the wargear is listed it has a note for those army list entry's that are seeing rules for frag grenades.

This is allowing the units in the codex that DO have frag grenades to access the assault grenade rules.

Blight grenades are noted in their wargear entry to count as both assault and defensive grenades.

The frag grenades have permission to access assault grenade rules, the blight grenades entry permits them to access assault and defensive grenade rules.
All this hard work to engage down the path of word soup.

Are we at nouns and vowels yet? How much does a consonant cost?