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I never see these guys taken in any Guard list. Are they just overpriced? Despite being T2, the Infiltrate, better ballistic skill, and Shoot then Run seems like they could be good annoying objective holders/deniers for 50 points for 5. Is it just that the points you spend on them could be used to buy more Guard bodies?

Basically, they aren't exactly tough, and they do the things a special weapons squad does but for more points, but even then the anti-monstrous creature role of snipers is easily filled by a bunch of lasguns.

Generally, I think that 50 points could buy a few meltas or the such, which will do a lot more.

But they certainly aren't the worst option in the codex.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Basically, they aren't exactly tough, and they do the things a special weapons squad does but for more points, but even then the anti-monstrous creature role of snipers is easily filled by a bunch of lasguns.

Generally, I think that 50 points could buy a few meltas or the such, which will do a lot more.

But they certainly aren't the worst option in the codex.

Disappointing. I might grab a couple for a cheap points fill and cuz I like the models

They can pretty much just be used to annoy your opponent.

While not bad, they have very little battlefield presence and die easily. Plus with sniper rifles being heavy you basically still have to drop them in cover and hope no-one sneezes at them.

I've seen them frequently. They are very difficult to handle for their miniscule points costs, meanwhile they can take on enemy monstrous creatures and other such forces. They're one of the most under-rated units in the game right now, but they're in the Imperial Guard... so... yeah...

The problem with ratlings is that they die so easily and their purpose is covered so much better by vets with sniper rifles. They have +1 to cover saves, but this only offsets the -1 to toughness they suffer as attacks wound them easier. A bolter fired at a ratling in cover has the exact same odds of killing said ratling as a bolter fired at your average guardsman in cover. They especially suffer in meelee where cover just isn't a thing and their STR 2 ruins them.

Just some mathhammer here: A vet squad with 3 sniper rifles costs just 6 more points than a squad of 6 ratlings. We'll assume the squads are firing at standard marines that are between 13-24 inches away (so no rapid fire).

Squad of ratlings fires: 4/6 shots hit, 1/2 wound, 1/3 of saves are failed by marines, resulting in 0.66666 marines dead.
Squad of vets fires: 0.7777777 marines die
-3 sniper rifles: 4/6 shots hit, 1/2 wound, 1/3 of saves are failed by marines, resulting in 0.333333 marines dead
-6 lasguns: 4/6 shots hit, 1/3 wound, 1/3 saves are failed by marines, resulting in 0.4444 marines dead.

Now obviously sniper rifles are more useful for shooting at MC's, but problem is there's just no reason not to grab the flexibility that a vet squad offers instead. When someone shoots at your vet squad, they generally have to blow through 6-7 bodies before your sniper rifles are even touched. With the ratlings, every ratling that dies is a sniper rifle gone. Then you get into melee and the vets really pull ahead.

Bottom line is, like others have posted here, ratlings aren't that bad per say, just outdone by vets in almost every meaningful way.

Furthermore, if I remember correctly, sniper rifles have been hit in the 5th--->6th passage.

Also, way less optimized, but you can take sniper special weapon teams if you take a platoon.

They're overpriced, and not exactly needed in the AM-army.

Stealth doesn't negate T2 and Ld6, and the shoot-and-run-rule is a fluffrule. Snipers are heavy, so if you utilize it, you better make sure you still have a target next turn, because you wont be able to move back and shoot.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
Furthermore, if I remember correctly, sniper rifles have been hit in the 5th--->6th passage.

Also, way less optimized, but you can take sniper special weapon teams if you take a platoon.

You don't even need to go that far. The platoon command squad you are required to take for a platoon can take sniper rifles, and even give itself the order to shoot and run if need be, albeit at a leadership 8 test rather than the inherent ability of the ratlings.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
Furthermore, if I remember correctly, sniper rifles have been hit in the 5th--->6th passage.

Also, way less optimized, but you can take sniper special weapon teams if you take a platoon.

(And by the 4th-5th transition. And the 6th-7th transition.)

Snipers have been nerfed with every edition transition I can remember, and they weren't that good to begin with.

Yeah with the sniper rifle being a heavy weapon, it makes the shoot and scarper rule useless. Since they always need to be in position to fire to be useful.

I love my old second edition models though, so they get used whenever I use my Guard.

With the removal of Servo Skulls, however, a 30-point unit of Ratlings offers some much-desired Infiltrate and Scout defense. They may be an easy kill point but that's a 30-point sacrifice that keeps an enemy unit from shooting something else for a turn. Plus they're so small they're easy to hide on an objective out of LoS.

 GreenShoes wrote:
With the removal of Servo Skulls, however, a 30-point unit of Ratlings offers some much-desired Infiltrate and Scout defense. They may be an easy kill point but that's a 30-point sacrifice that keeps an enemy unit from shooting something else for a turn. Plus they're so small they're easy to hide on an objective out of LoS.

I wouldn't get too excited about Servo Skulls. GW just updated the inquisition codex and they are still in it apparently.

Did they update it today? Because they're not in C:IA.

 General Kroll wrote:
Yeah with the sniper rifle being a heavy weapon, it makes the shoot and scarper rule useless.

Not really, you can use it to anticipate the enemy moving out of sight in subsequent turns or to make a (slow) withdraw on anything closing in to get more turns of shooting, to change targets, or creep onto objectives.

Obviously it isn't as good as jump shoot jump, but there are uses.

I haven't really liked sniper rifles for a few editions straight now. They need to really be reviewed and changed up a bit, cause as they are now they're rather lackluster.

Well the main thing I see for their entry is that their investment is super low. Yeah you can get better snipers elsewhere, but you can't do it as cheaply.
The low toughness doesn't matter a lot, as any weapon being super spammed won't recognize the difference between 2 and 3, and low LD isn't an issue when focusing fire will kill off a minimum squad anyway.

However, they aren't fulfilling any role particularly well simply because the sniper rifle is very low firing rate, and will pay for rules they won't use like Infiltrate.

 GreenShoes wrote:
Did they update it today? Because they're not in C:IA.

They sure did. It's very....confusing. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/712003.page


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well the main thing I see for their entry is that their investment is super low. Yeah you can get better snipers elsewhere, but you can't do it as cheaply.
The low toughness doesn't matter a lot, as any weapon being super spammed won't recognize the difference between 2 and 3, and low LD isn't an issue when focusing fire will kill off a minimum squad anyway.

However, they aren't fulfilling any role particularly well simply because the sniper rifle is very low firing rate, and will pay for rules they won't use like Infiltrate.

I tend to infiltrate mine onto an objective, and hope they can get LoS onto something. They are more of a nuisance unit than anything else, my opponent has to deal with them because they will be annoying more than the fact that they will actually do something spectacular for me.

But. They are too expensive, their weapons should be rapid fire, and they should have the ability to take camo cloaks.

 General Kroll wrote:

 GreenShoes wrote:
Did they update it today? Because they're not in C:IA.

They sure did. It's very....confusing. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/712003.page

Yeah, that's a mess. Oh well, guess Ratlings really are useless then

They're definitely not the optimal choice, to be sure. Veterans with sniper rifles would work better.

But I wonder... how many gamers are so strongly into optimizing their lists that they cannot suffer even a single 50pts squad out of their 1850pts+ army, to be significantly suboptimal, if they enjoy the flavor of the unit?

 Pouncey wrote:
They're definitely not the optimal choice, to be sure. Veterans with sniper rifles would work better.

But I wonder... how many gamers are so strongly into optimizing their lists that they cannot suffer even a single 50pts squad out of their 1850pts+ army, to be significantly suboptimal, if they enjoy the flavor of the unit?

Exactly, and it's not even like it is a waste of 50 points, they've surely got to be worth something so maybe only wasting 10-20 points out of 50?

The min unit is 3 railings. So only thirty points. I could imagine getting three minimum units and infiltrating them into annoying positions.

90 points isn't a bad investment to force your opponent to deal with three nothing units that have to be dealt with. They are presented with an option, ignore them...they can't do THAT much damage can they? Or waste a turn wiping them out with three units.

 General Kroll wrote:
The min unit is 3 railings. So only thirty points. I could imagine getting three minimum units and infiltrating them into annoying positions.

90 points isn't a bad investment to force your opponent to deal with three nothing units that have to be dealt with. They are presented with an option, ignore them...they can't do THAT much damage can they? Or waste a turn wiping them out with three units.

They're cheap enough that they could at least be used as sacrificial fodder if your enemy decides to kill them. And if your enemy opts to ignore them entirely because they can't deal much damage, well guess what, you just got to spend an entire game with your Ratlings being alive and doing stuff. Veterans would do more damage, but like my first raiding guild used to say in WoW: "A dead damage dealer does zero damage."

Also, can you outfit a Veteran Squad entirely with sniper rifles now? Last time I played IG, I thought you could only take 3 sniper rifles per squad because they were one of your special weapon choices.

 Pouncey wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
The min unit is 3 railings. So only thirty points. I could imagine getting three minimum units and infiltrating them into annoying positions.

90 points isn't a bad investment to force your opponent to deal with three nothing units that have to be dealt with. They are presented with an option, ignore them...they can't do THAT much damage can they? Or waste a turn wiping them out with three units.

They're cheap enough that they could at least be used as sacrificial fodder if your enemy decides to kill them. And if your enemy opts to ignore them entirely because they can't deal much damage, well guess what, you just got to spend an entire game with your Ratlings being alive and doing stuff. Veterans would do more damage, but like my first raiding guild used to say in WoW: "A dead damage dealer does zero damage."

Also, can you outfit a Veteran Squad entirely with sniper rifles now? Last time I played IG, I thought you could only take 3 sniper rifles per squad because they were one of your special weapon choices.

You're right, you can only take three sniper rifles in a veteran team.

It would be a bit of a dilemma for the opponent. Ratling making lucky shots here and there, with a lucky precision shot they could take out some important model. They could be a real pain, and all for thirty points. Yet it would be a massive investment to waste a Tactical squad's (for example) shooting phase to eradicate them. And if you get them in good cover, their stealth will give them a good cover save. Even better if it's night fighting. Suddenly they are annoyingly hard to shift.

 General Kroll wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
The min unit is 3 railings. So only thirty points. I could imagine getting three minimum units and infiltrating them into annoying positions.

90 points isn't a bad investment to force your opponent to deal with three nothing units that have to be dealt with. They are presented with an option, ignore them...they can't do THAT much damage can they? Or waste a turn wiping them out with three units.

They're cheap enough that they could at least be used as sacrificial fodder if your enemy decides to kill them. And if your enemy opts to ignore them entirely because they can't deal much damage, well guess what, you just got to spend an entire game with your Ratlings being alive and doing stuff. Veterans would do more damage, but like my first raiding guild used to say in WoW: "A dead damage dealer does zero damage."

Also, can you outfit a Veteran Squad entirely with sniper rifles now? Last time I played IG, I thought you could only take 3 sniper rifles per squad because they were one of your special weapon choices.

You're right, you can only take three sniper rifles in a veteran team.

It would be a bit of a dilemma for the opponent. Ratling making lucky shots here and there, with a lucky precision shot they could take out some important model. They could be a real pain, and all for thirty points. Yet it would be a massive investment to waste a Tactical squad's (for example) shooting phase to eradicate them. And if you get them in good cover, their stealth will give them a good cover save. Even better if it's night fighting. Suddenly they are annoyingly hard to shift.

If you can only take 3 sniper rifles in a veteran squad, then for the same points as the veterans' 3 sniper rifles, you could get, what, 7-9 Ratling snipers? Are sniper rifles in Veteran squads really 2-3 TIMES better than sniper rifles in Ratling squads?

 Pouncey wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
The min unit is 3 railings. So only thirty points. I could imagine getting three minimum units and infiltrating them into annoying positions.

90 points isn't a bad investment to force your opponent to deal with three nothing units that have to be dealt with. They are presented with an option, ignore them...they can't do THAT much damage can they? Or waste a turn wiping them out with three units.

They're cheap enough that they could at least be used as sacrificial fodder if your enemy decides to kill them. And if your enemy opts to ignore them entirely because they can't deal much damage, well guess what, you just got to spend an entire game with your Ratlings being alive and doing stuff. Veterans would do more damage, but like my first raiding guild used to say in WoW: "A dead damage dealer does zero damage."

Also, can you outfit a Veteran Squad entirely with sniper rifles now? Last time I played IG, I thought you could only take 3 sniper rifles per squad because they were one of your special weapon choices.

You're right, you can only take three sniper rifles in a veteran team.

It would be a bit of a dilemma for the opponent. Ratling making lucky shots here and there, with a lucky precision shot they could take out some important model. They could be a real pain, and all for thirty points. Yet it would be a massive investment to waste a Tactical squad's (for example) shooting phase to eradicate them. And if you get them in good cover, their stealth will give them a good cover save. Even better if it's night fighting. Suddenly they are annoyingly hard to shift.

If you can only take 3 sniper rifles in a veteran squad, then for the same points as the veterans' 3 sniper rifles, you could get, what, 7-9 Ratling snipers? Are sniper rifles in Veteran squads really 2-3 TIMES better than sniper rifles in Ratling squads?

I mean you do get some las gun meat shields, but they don't get infiltrate, or stealth.

*orders two dozen ratlings from the GW webstore*

 General Kroll wrote:
I mean you do get some las gun meat shields, but they don't get infiltrate, or stealth.

*orders two dozen ratlings from the GW webstore*

Then you're no longer comparing the effectiveness of the sniper rifles themselves, you're comparing the effectiveness of other unit members who do not, in fact, have sniper rifles.

From one of the tactics videos I've watched they have been described as good for getting in on rear enemy objectives.

Keep the unit small, outflank them in, and use them to harass enemy units or cap a hard to reach objective. Another big thing is it gives you an opportunity to mess with your opponents priorities, as engaging a three man Ratling squad could be looked upon as a waste of fire, and yet the Ratlings could still put out some damage,

The other use mentioned was to keep them in good cover and use them against MCs. Again, messing with your opponent's targeting priorities as I am sure there will be many other units on the field that look more important to shoot at.

Guard have the best snipers in the game, the wyvern. That thing is the best character hunter that I can think of and heck it tends to wipe the rest of the squad and only cost 70ish points.

zalak wrote:
Guard have the best snipers in the game, the wyvern. That thing is the best character hunter that I can think of and heck it tends to wipe the rest of the squad and only cost 70ish points.

Um.

The concept of a vehicle-mounted quad heavy mortar is practically the antithesis of a sniper rifle when it comes to antipersonnel weaponry.