Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
I thought I read it here but I don't see it so it must of been elsewhere but Ridley (I believe it was from an interview with the director) stated that the xenomorphs were not from or created by the Engineers. This was a recent quote not something from Prometheus or earlier.

Well in Prometheus we see that the "xenomorphs" are created from us!

Does that mean, as said by Ash in Alien, that Xenomorphs are the ultimate predator because they are humans without morality?

Dun dun dun!

 welshhoppo wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
I thought I read it here but I don't see it so it must of been elsewhere but Ridley (I believe it was from an interview with the director) stated that the xenomorphs were not from or created by the Engineers. This was a recent quote not something from Prometheus or earlier.

Well in Prometheus we see that the "xenomorphs" are created from us!

Does that mean, as said by Ash in Alien, that Xenomorphs are the ultimate predator because they are humans without morality?

Dun dun dun!

Given that we have seen on screen Aliens infecting Humans, Dogs, Predators and the Engineers (in fact pretty much everything they come into contact with) - us being the ultimate form seems a bit of reach.

Or just another stupid idea in the raft of stupid ideas within the film.

I thought the Xenomorphs came from some hyper lethal home world where they were quite low in the food chain. Or am I thinking of some spin off?

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
I thought the Xenomorphs came from some hyper lethal home world where they were quite low in the food chain. Or am I thinking of some spin off?

Now THAT would be a death world!

 Frazzled wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
I thought the Xenomorphs came from some hyper lethal home world where they were quite low in the food chain. Or am I thinking of some spin off?

Now THAT would be a death world!

That's the world shown in the old graphic novel where they are just another predator / prey species.

Which old graphic novel? My knowledge foo of anything but the movies is pretty weak.

 Pacific wrote:
Sadly the un-weaving of the rainbow (in terms of finding out about the engineers) lessens the impact of that film somewhat.

It's important to keep in mind that these various stories are connected, for the most part, largely for the sake of marketing. We shouldn't uncritically go along with it.

For example: When Titan Books took over publishing the novels from Dark Horse, the first new Alien novel - called Out of the Shadows by Tim Lebbon - actually was a story about what happened to Ripley between Alien and Aliens ... yes that's right, there is now a story about poor Ripley being awoken from cryo-sleep, almost getting effed over by an evil corporation and xenomorphs, and then forgetting it all happened, going back into cryo-sleep, etc etc. OK well let's not get on a tangent about the merits (?) of that concept ... but I did realize while reading the book that Mr. Lebbon was making an effort to bridge the gap between Ripley's character in Alien and her character in Alien - which in turn made me realize that I always just assumed this was the same character.

But the truth is, the connections are largely superficial - a name, a look, the barest details of her life that could be gleaned from Sir Ridley's movie. James Cameron needed more to tell his story, so he invented it - namely, that Ripley had a daughter. This would not have been insignificant to her characterization in the first movie ... the issue was, the character in that movie had no daughter. It's important to keep in mind that we aren't dealing with historical reality here - I know that seems obvious but it is amazing how easily we buy into a non-existent continuity as soon as we are retroactively asked to do so. The truth is, Ripley in Alien and Ripley in Aliens are just not really the same person. They are the same person for the purposes of Aliens - but not for the sake of Alien. It doesn't bleed both ways.

The same thing obviously applies to the xenomorph. There was this concept haunting the script of Alien, which was deemed too expensive and was probably also not strictly efficient considering the simplicity of the story - that the xenomorphs are actually a civilization and Big Chap is a terrified infant born into a completely well, alien context and is violently lashing out because it lacks the developmental frame of reference proper to its culture (note: as opposed to biology). The possibilities for the meaning of the Space Jockey vastly change when you take that into account! But along comes Cameron and in his vision the xenomorphs are like bees. They're animals. So suddenly the Space Jockey was the unfortunate victim of a cargo malfunction - and the question shifts to the nature of his mission: science, commerce, war?

So 2012 rolls around and here's Sir Ridley saying he has some answers ... but really this is a whole new ball game: now we have black goop and we're being asked to read that - somehow, the movie is actually very unhelpful on this point - back onto Alien and Aliens, two movies that already don't form a neat continuity. So when I watch Alien and I see the Space Jockey, I am thinking ... this is an unsolved mystery because whatever Sir Ridley and the producers decided three decades and more later is a different matter altogether and it's not necessarily any more relevant or credible than Tim Lebbon's story (published in 2014) about Ripley waking up and fighting xenomorphs between Alien and Aliens.

 Frazzled wrote:
Which old graphic novel? My knowledge foo of anything but the movies is pretty weak.

So in the comics, the Aliens make it to Earth and there is a huge war and they infest the whole planet but eventually humanity starts exterminating them and corporations are harvesting their bodies for research to make things like drugs. Part of defeating the xenomorphs was going to their alleged home planet and killing the super queen. That storyline was called Female War. And after that, this one drug company makes a deal with the military to go on an expedition back to the homeworld to get more of these special xenomorph chemicals. The storyline is called Genocide.

 Frazzled wrote:
Which old graphic novel? My knowledge foo of anything but the movies is pretty weak.

Aliens Book one by Mark Verheiden and Mark A Nelson

It was a direct sequal to the Aliens film - awesome piece of work staring Newt and Hicks - after Aliens 3 came out, their names were changed.

In it scientists discussed how Aliens had evolved on a death world and then later in the book they go there. The Engineers are in as well - things end badly for pretty much everyone and..Earth

Its a fantastic read - if you can get it and enjoy.

 Mr Morden wrote:
if you can get it

The version with the changed names has been in print via the comic omnibus and the Dark Horse novels (now Titan omnibus) continuously. The original version was just reprinted in HC by Dark Horse last April.

I do like the idea of that graphic novel very much, I'll probably see if I can find it anywhere.

What now confuses me, though it should have been obvious from the very beginning, is if Covenant is taking place on a different planet than Prometheus' planet, why reveal that weird, malformed xenomorph at the very end of Prometheus? Especially considering Shaw and David already took off in an engineer ship prior to it popping out of the engineer's body? There's no way its existence can impact Covenant. When it used its defunct pharyngeal jaws, it might as well have unfurled a little banner from its mouth reading "IN CASE YOU HAVE NOT REALIZED, THIS FILM IS PART OF THE ALIEN UNIVERSE," seeing as it probably has no further part to play.

The Deacon was the Lindelof replacement for Spaihts's "ultramorph," a subtype of xenomorph born out of an Engineer. In the final script for Prometheus, the story had shifted away from being about the origin of the xenomorph. Therefore, the main role of showing the Deacon would be retroshadowing. What I mean is, foreshadowing - as the name implies - prepares the audience for later developments in the story. But we already know about the xenomorph ... we even see something like it artistically represented in the Engineer's base. So the Deacon is logically meant to create a connection between the origin of xenomorphs and the black goo, as opposed to a connection between human DNA and the xenomorph.

I think this is an example of Lindelof getting it right. It would make no sense for a xenomorph of any kind to pop out of the awakened Engineer's chest.

Eh, the only films I consider (my personal) canon are Alien and Aliens. Some of the others are fun but I don't really put them into the same story. Prometheus was pretty close but had to many bizarre issues.

I know the others exist but they just seem 'meh' and unconnected to me. It isn't like Star Wars were they never got around to making prequels. Can you imagine how awful those would have been if they did make them?

Wasn't there a painting on the crashed ship in the original Alien film that portrayed the alien life cycle in a somewhat religious manner?

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Which old graphic novel? My knowledge foo of anything but the movies is pretty weak.

Aliens Book one by Mark Verheiden and Mark A Nelson

It was a direct sequal to the Aliens film - awesome piece of work staring Newt and Hicks - after Aliens 3 came out, their names were changed.

In it scientists discussed how Aliens had evolved on a death world and then later in the book they go there. The Engineers are in as well - things end badly for pretty much everyone and..Earth

Its a fantastic read - if you can get it and enjoy.

Royal Jelly! those were great stories

Such a mural was painted and it was even filmed but it never made it into the final cut.

 Manchu wrote:
Such a mural was painted and it was even filmed but it never made it into the final cut.

That's a shame. I thought it added a whole lot of mystery to the engineer and the aliens. I'll still take it as canon over Prometheus.

Well if they find Dummy's Guide to the Xenomorph Lifecycle on the wall of the derelict it kind of spoils the surprise for Kane.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Such a mural was painted and it was even filmed but it never made it into the final cut.

That's a shame. I thought it added a whole lot of mystery to the engineer and the aliens. I'll still take it as canon over Prometheus.

Also in Alien, there was no need for a queen. The victims were cacooned and everntually molted into an egg (while alive) . I saw the cut out scene-thats...disconcerting to say the least.

 Frazzled wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Such a mural was painted and it was even filmed but it never made it into the final cut.

That's a shame. I thought it added a whole lot of mystery to the engineer and the aliens. I'll still take it as canon over Prometheus.

Also in Alien, there was no need for a queen. The victims were cacooned and everntually molted into an egg (while alive) . I saw the cut out scene-thats...disconcerting to say the least.

The theory/retcon there is that the first egg then hatches a Queen, who then begins the hive proper.

I recall an interview with Giger who said that the xeno's life cycle was short which is why it aggressively seeks out creatures to turn into eggs to make more xenomorphs. It is also as why it went from snakey chest burster thing to full grown monster in few hours that was somewhat belligerent.

Thank goodness for James Cameron ...

Meet Walter




"Learn from me, if not from my precepts at least by my example, how dangerous is the acquirement of knowledge ..." imcomplete quotation from Frankenstein. The rest of the sentence:

I really hope they don't kill off Shaw in a cutscene or eggmorph her off screen. I quite "liked" the concept that David made this woman who believes in the beauty of creation because she can't have children give birth to this monstrous race. Plus it was an absolute WTH moment that seemed really in keeping with how the Alien is this corruption of the human life cycle.

I'd rather he went even further and her become a hybrid xenomorph if not a full Queen. Which would explain where he got the eggs and tie together nicely with how she already gave birth to that thing. David just needs to upgrade her a little bit first....

Also, Queen > Egg morphing.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Queen > Egg morphing.

I'd go farther: "egg-morphing" is just plain dumb.

egg → facehugger → chestburster → adult

Alien tells an extremely simple story. The only thing justifying the complexity of the xenomorph lifecycle is the impact of the chestburster scene. It was unnecessary to figure out the origin of the egg for Alien because that is beyond the scope of its story. Unnecessary wrinkles not only reduce plot and story efficiency but - for the very reason that it is better to disregard them - they also tend to be inefficient in themselves. To wit, "egg morphing" only serves to distract from the horror of the chestburster. I know I wouldn't have wanted my audience walking out of the theater debating whether it was worse to get egg-morphed or face-hugged. Furthermore, if the xenomorph has a biological imperative to reproduce via egg-morphing some victims and trapping others to be face-hugged then it really can't afford to do much murdering. And yet it kills Parker and Lambert outright, despite no material change in circumstances from when it (in light of the deleted scenes) captured Brett and Dallas.

Now, Cameron did not require the eusocial angle to explain eggs. Sir Ridley had left him a whole derelict full of eggs. Adult xenomorphs could have simply captured colonists and dragged them back to the derelict to be face-hugged. Or they could have scampered off to the derelict and carried eggs back to Hadley's Hope. But these are just plot concerns. Cameron invented the queen to provide a foil for Ripley in a story about motherhood.

In short, the invention of the queen results in an interesting story ... whereas the egg-morphing thing was rightly left on the cutting room floor.

It was also a bit of a jarring stop right in the middle of the actions scenes.

It'd be nice to change egg-morphing into nest-morphing. Just have the bodies broken down to spread the nest goo.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
I really hope they don't kill off Shaw in a cutscene or eggmorph her off screen. I quite "liked" the concept that David made this woman who believes in the beauty of creation because she can't have children give birth to this monstrous race. Plus it was an absolute WTH moment that seemed really in keeping with how the Alien is this corruption of the human life cycle.

I'd rather he went even further and her become a hybrid xenomorph if not a full Queen. Which would explain where he got the eggs and tie together nicely with how she already gave birth to that thing. David just needs to upgrade her a little bit first....

Also, Queen > Egg morphing.

Ughh I hope Shaw is not in any more films - terrible character. David was however fun

What was wrong with Shaw?

She might not be HAWT enough for some...

Ho ho well she is certainly hawt "enough" for me! Plus she was likable. Plus plus she is one of the only characters I have seen in mainstream media for a long time who was not forced to choose between being a good scientists and being religious.