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A good way to make mike armies cry, is take LotD, you can actually run them, but only 5, and give one a melta. Cool Part is, they all ignore cover, so no jinks, give the MM guy sharp shooter for my range, you now have a melta that ignores cover and is gonna insta death them.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

so in 200 points you can get

Death spinner which is WS5 BS5
and 9 warp spiders ws4 bs4

Flicker jump is done before the enemy fires shot, you get to jump 2d6, your opponent can not choose another target to shoot at even if you are out of LoS.

Basically you jump behind a wall, if they cant see you, to bad they cant shoot.

They guns are S6, AP - but, they use the models Init when determining damage, IE if your init is 3 its treated as T3 vs S6 weapon. On 6 its AP 2 and its assault 2. so whats those necrons init

Since kill team is meant to be played with lots of terrain, so its crazy OP.

They're I2. What's the range on the gun? Noise marines would be treated as if being T5 though, which is nice lol. Warp Spiders would get wrecked by Genestealers though. I6 base and don't shoot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aaranis wrote:


Thanks ! Yeah that instakills my guys if they're AP4. Can't have the FNP against ID. I'll try to spread my guys out to always be able to shoot him anywhere, and charge all the time with my Dragoon.

I can see why people call them OP too, seems a bit long ranged for a unit based on speed.

What's giving your guard FNP?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
A good way to make mike armies cry, is take LotD, you can actually run them, but only 5, and give one a melta. Cool Part is, they all ignore cover, so no jinks, give the MM guy sharp shooter for my range, you now have a melta that ignores cover and is gonna insta death them.

The Tomb Blades are Ignores Cover as well.

I believe he has skitarii, not guard.

And the range on spider guns isn't crazy, something like 12 or 18 iirc, but they have 2d6 +6" movement speed as well as battle focus, which means they can actually move 3d6+6" before shooting if needed, averaging out at 16.5 inches, significantly faster than bikes, or they can do the run after shooting instead for better positioning.

Biggest issue is that damn jump when you target them. With good terrain each spider is all but invincible to the first thing that tries to tag him each round, and you'll only get to fire a second thing at any particular guy if you've managed to maneuver things so that he can't get well-hidden from any angle.

They also have Sv 3+ and can vastly out move them.

Still wounding noise marines on 3+ and nids of a 4+

Skitarii Vanguards and Rangers have a 6+ FNP per default, with only Sicarians using the full 5+ FNP. Saved my Alpha once, two wounds to save, two 6's, heh.

 Aaranis wrote:
Skitarii Vanguards and Rangers have a 6+ FNP per default, with only Sicarians using the full 5+ FNP. Saved my Alpha once, two wounds to save, two 6's, heh.

Can confirm Skitarii rangers are pretty good on the table.

 Yarium wrote:
Doesn't help Harlequins much, I'm afraid, but you can "fix" them by allowing them to Run & Charge as they normally would be able to in just about ANY of their formations/detachments.

The Masque of the Red Death can run and charge still I believe, can't it? They also get a pretty nice discount on their gear. The package leaves you just enough to take a Shadowseer or Death Jester with 5 points of upgrades.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
Doesn't help Harlequins much, I'm afraid, but you can "fix" them by allowing them to Run & Charge as they normally would be able to in just about ANY of their formations/detachments.

The Masque of the Red Death can run and charge still I believe, can't it? They also get a pretty nice discount on their gear. The package leaves you just enough to take a Shadowseer or Death Jester with 5 points of upgrades.

...Death's Companions can still run and charge, if you really want to use them, but an eight-point discount on a unit with a terrible loadout that also loses one Attack on the sergeant and gets a rule the whole book will have in normal-size games for its trouble isn't going to change the fact that it's an overpriced and incredibly fragile unit.

FWIW, it's an 11 point discount. I do agree Dusk is worse than a Troupe Master by a bit and that 33 point Player has a giant target on her back. Still, compared to what you normally get from a Troupe in Kill Team I think its worth it if you're going to play Harlequins.

Warp Spiders and Tomb Blades were also models that came up in discussion about the powerful possibilities.
I won all 6 games we played. Other strong lists were two Tau forces with some crisis suits, and a 6 Shuriken-cannon skyrunner force. The Eldar dude won 5 games then played me where I slashed 4 bikes to death and the other two ran off the table before firing a shot.

The screamers I used worked so well because they were very fast, very durable, capable of dealing with all enemies. Turbo boost and slash attacks mean they can be on the opponents board edge on turn 1,hiding behind terrain, in charge range for next turn, having killed 2 or 3 models from slashes alone. They give the opponent exactly one round of shooting, where they have 2W and a 4+/3+ (night fighting) reroll 1s cover save + 2 wounds meaning very few things can kill them point for point. And in combat, hammer of wrath + fear + 4 S4 or 1 S5Ap2 attack kills single models very easily.


More generally, in regards to the event, a kill team of a ton of guardsmen in a vehicle doesn't worry me. It might be durable, but it doesn't seem to have any particular shenanigans that make it un-fun.

If we implemented a rule that "no more than 50% of your points may be spent on non-standard -infantry models", what armies would that exclude and what shenanigans would slip through?

niv-mizzet wrote:I believe he has skitarii, not guard.

And the range on spider guns isn't crazy, something like 12 or 18 iirc, but they have 2d6 +6" movement speed as well as battle focus, which means they can actually move 3d6+6" before shooting if needed, averaging out at 16.5 inches, significantly faster than bikes, or they can do the run after shooting instead for better positioning.

Biggest issue is that damn jump when you target them. With good terrain each spider is all but invincible to the first thing that tries to tag him each round, and you'll only get to fire a second thing at any particular guy if you've managed to maneuver things so that he can't get well-hidden from any angle.

FWIW, when they flickerjump away from your shooting, they don't get the 2d6+6 movement in the subsequent movement phase, but rather they have to move like normal. So potentially you can force them to either choose to stay and take the hit to hold an objective, or flicker away and possibly be out of position on the next turn. In regular 40k this doesn't matter as much, but perhaps it could matter more in Kill Team.

Trasvi wrote:Warp Spiders and Tomb Blades were also models that came up in discussion about the powerful possibilities.
I won all 6 games we played. Other strong lists were two Tau forces with some crisis suits, and a 6 Shuriken-cannon skyrunner force. The Eldar dude won 5 games then played me where I slashed 4 bikes to death and the other two ran off the table before firing a shot.

The screamers I used worked so well because they were very fast, very durable, capable of dealing with all enemies. Turbo boost and slash attacks mean they can be on the opponents board edge on turn 1,hiding behind terrain, in charge range for next turn, having killed 2 or 3 models from slashes alone. They give the opponent exactly one round of shooting, where they have 2W and a 4+/3+ (night fighting) reroll 1s cover save + 2 wounds meaning very few things can kill them point for point. And in combat, hammer of wrath + fear + 4 S4 or 1 S5Ap2 attack kills single models very easily.


More generally, in regards to the event, a kill team of a ton of guardsmen in a vehicle doesn't worry me. It might be durable, but it doesn't seem to have any particular shenanigans that make it un-fun.

If we implemented a rule that "no more than 50% of your points may be spent on non-standard -infantry models", what armies would that exclude and what shenanigans would slip through?

I could throw out a few suggestions for restrictions to keep the games fun:
1. Players must take a minimum of 2 units. Now, it could be a single unit and a dedicated transport (technically 2 units after all), but at least you wouldn't have an army of all Screamers. Nurglings are out as well due to the fact that in GW's Kill Team you can't take models with more than 3 wounds. This would stop some of the spammy KT builds (with the Tomb Blades and Screamers being the worst offenders).
2. No more than one vehicle per Kill Team. Many Kill Team builds have little or no way to combat vehicles, so I would say restricting their numbers might help. Maybe allow multiple vehicles, but no squadrons, so Tau can't take a minimum Fire Warrior squad and 3 Piranhas.
3. Restrict the number of models in a Kill Team, although this will hurt some armies a lot more than others, so perhaps not such a good idea. Perhaps have a minimum number of models as well?
I'm just spitballing here, as I've thought about trying to get a KT event going in my area. I wouldn't try to include prizes, but just a fun day playing games.

Ban Corsair bikes. They are head-and-shoulders above regular Eldar jetbikes. In Killteam, a unit of 4 Scatter Laser bikes and 3 Splinter Cannon bikes is so amazing it's absurd. Good enough that my group is discussing restricting or banning them out of fairness.

I can see the argument for Warp Spiders being better, and when fighting against Tomb Blades I'd agree that in a 1v1 match up they'd likely hold the advantage. However, I think Tomb Blades are overall more powerful against any other list, and much more likely to result in a crushing tabling of their opponents simply due to their range and ignoring cover.

Has anyone used Wraiths at all? Are they to expensive? I've seen them prove very effective in Combat Patrol, along with Scarabs. I can't think of any unit that should be banned that wouldn't result in a ton of similar units warranting banning. However, allowing Terminators I don't feel would be game breaking. They are underpowered to begin with. If you can't beat 6 Terminators with nearly 10 warp spiders you aren't trying...

 TheArmorOfContempt wrote:
I can see the argument for Warp Spiders being better, and when fighting against Tomb Blades I'd agree that in a 1v1 match up they'd likely hold the advantage. However, I think Tomb Blades are overall more powerful against any other list, and much more likely to result in a crushing tabling of their opponents simply due to their range and ignoring cover.

Has anyone used Wraiths at all? Are they to expensive? I've seen them prove very effective in Combat Patrol, along with Scarabs. I can't think of any unit that should be banned that wouldn't result in a ton of similar units warranting banning. However, allowing Terminators I don't feel would be game breaking. They are underpowered to begin with. If you can't beat 6 Terminators with nearly 10 warp spiders you aren't trying...

In the last match of the tournament, the objective was just a deathmatch, and I faced a list made of 3 Wraiths and 6 or 7 Flayed Ones, don't remember the exact number. I just waited for him to come to me since he didn't have a shooting phase and got all his Flayed ones in one round of shooting, but the Wraiths survived and casually killed all of my guys one by one, even my Dragoon. I lost the fight while he still had one and a half Wraith in the end, they're quite fast and resilient with that 3++ and high T. Nothing over-the-top though, really a nice unit with being OP.

Never lose. Spam tomb blades. Grab twin linked, ap 4, ignores cover. You beat most things in CC, destroy squishy armies from outside their charge range, can jink and get a FNP against most ap 3 or less gak, and beat everything.

Tomb blades literally win everything. I'm not sure if any army can beat tomb blade spam. After watching a guy bring tomb blades to our store's friendly tourney and experiencing all the ways kill team breaks apart, I'd rather stick with normal 40k. kill team is just so easily broken to the point of ridiculousness.

I haven't had much opportunity to play kill Team but I'd still be curious to see how a Grav-Cannon inside a Rhino with the split fire specialist option would work, especially on something like Tomb Blades where you could kill more than one per round.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Gw's most recent incarnation of kill team already uses a detachment with sensible restrictions and all. But it doesn't really help you could still field all jet bikes if you are phil kelly. -> proof https://www.warhammer-community.com/2016/12/24/kill-teams-in-the-office/

So this is another evidence that Kelly is not incompetent - is plain malicious.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Gw's most recent incarnation of kill team already uses a detachment with sensible restrictions and all. But it doesn't really help you could still field all jet bikes if you are phil kelly. -> proof https://www.warhammer-community.com/2016/12/24/kill-teams-in-the-office/

So this is another evidence that Kelly is not incompetent - is plain malicious.

To his defence he uses 2 shuriken cannons instead of 5-6 scatter-cheeses and brings in a warlock. That's an old-school load-out and, while strong, it ain't game-breaking. I mean, he just needs to drop the warlock, swap the shuriken cannons, and you have literally 7 jetbikes with scatter lasers. now, THAT breaks the game.

 TheArmorOfContempt wrote:
I can see the argument for Warp Spiders being better, and when fighting against Tomb Blades I'd agree that in a 1v1 match up they'd likely hold the advantage. However, I think Tomb Blades are overall more powerful against any other list, and much more likely to result in a crushing tabling of their opponents simply due to their range and ignoring cover.

Has anyone used Wraiths at all? Are they to expensive? I've seen them prove very effective in Combat Patrol, along with Scarabs. I can't think of any unit that should be banned that wouldn't result in a ton of similar units warranting banning. However, allowing Terminators I don't feel would be game breaking. They are underpowered to begin with. If you can't beat 6 Terminators with nearly 10 warp spiders you aren't trying...

Wraiths would be awesome, but they're Beasts.
You need to have 4 non-vehicle, swarm or beast models to be your leader/specialists.
You could still very easily do 3 Wraiths and 4 Tomb Blades though.

Definitely going to severely restrict jetbike/beast/multiwound models. Especially models that are both.

I wouldn't deny anything, to be honest. At 200-250, bring what fits the restrictions: No 2+/2++, W2 or less, etc.

 TheArmorOfContempt wrote:
I haven't had much opportunity to play kill Team but I'd still be curious to see how a Grav-Cannon inside a Rhino with the split fire specialist option would work, especially on something like Tomb Blades where you could kill more than one per round.

You can only take Fast Attack, Elite, and Troop choices. IIRC Grav Cannons are Devastators only.

 Dark_Apostle_Spartachris wrote:

 TheArmorOfContempt wrote:
I haven't had much opportunity to play kill Team but I'd still be curious to see how a Grav-Cannon inside a Rhino with the split fire specialist option would work, especially on something like Tomb Blades where you could kill more than one per round.

You can only take Fast Attack, Elite, and Troop choices. IIRC Grav Cannons are Devastators only.

Nah you can stick a single Grav-Cannon on a Tactical squad. Which is all you would want to spend anyway, cause those things be expensive.

Trasvi wrote:


Wraiths would be awesome, but they're Beasts.
You need to have 4 non-vehicle, swarm or beast models to be your leader/specialists.
You could still very easily do 3 Wraiths and 4 Tomb Blades though.

Definitely going to severely restrict jetbike/beast/multiwound models. Especially models that are both.

Pretty much what I was thinking. On a table with heavy LoS blocking terrain Wraiths are brutal, since they are already one of the most brutally efficient melee units in the game. 4 Wraiths I feel would absolutely crush Warp Spiders since they utterly negate their most useful ability.

I won one of the Combat Patrol events at last year's Adepticon so I came away with a decent understanding of what is really powerful in some of these small point events, and everyone here has mostly zero'd in on them.

If it can't: Scout, Infiltrate, or move 12 inches in the movement phase it really isn't worth taking. I used Grav-Cannons mounted in Rhinos to win my event(with a Stormtalon as back-up). Like anything else your match-ups can largely determine how things are going to go for you.

Question: If I take a Tac Squad with a Dedicated Rhino Transport and make one of the Marines a specialist with Infiltrate, will the Rhino be able to infiltrate? The rule that makes each model a unit of its own really becomes confusing when you factor in transports.

 Dark_Apostle_Spartachris wrote:

 TheArmorOfContempt wrote:
I haven't had much opportunity to play kill Team but I'd still be curious to see how a Grav-Cannon inside a Rhino with the split fire specialist option would work, especially on something like Tomb Blades where you could kill more than one per round.

You can only take Fast Attack, Elite, and Troop choices. IIRC Grav Cannons are Devastators only.

Nope, in the latest codex they are on the heavy weapon table, so devs/tacs/sternguard/etc. (except LotD)

 TheArmorOfContempt wrote:

Question: If I take a Tac Squad with a Dedicated Rhino Transport and make one of the Marines a specialist with Infiltrate, will the Rhino be able to infiltrate? The rule that makes each model a unit of its own really becomes confusing when you factor in transports.

I don't believe so. Just like if you take a banner, whatever effect it bestows is granted to the bearer only.

My main issue is with the JSJ of the CWE jetbikes. They pop out of cover, shoot 2-4 shots at good range, using good stats (S6, possibly Rending (lite), then jump back behind a wall before you can shoot back. If they need to grab on objective, they can move up to 30" in a turn. All for under 30 pts each.

There is a reason CWE are universally hated right now.

 Dark_Apostle_Spartachris wrote:

 TheArmorOfContempt wrote:
I haven't had much opportunity to play kill Team but I'd still be curious to see how a Grav-Cannon inside a Rhino with the split fire specialist option would work, especially on something like Tomb Blades where you could kill more than one per round.

You can only take Fast Attack, Elite, and Troop choices. IIRC Grav Cannons are Devastators only.

Grav cannons can be found on devastator marines but then you're looking at a 1W 3+Sv that is not Slow & Purposeful, so it's very killable, and the cost is high for what you get.

Okay guys, I just played two games today against the two Eldar lists playing in the tourney I have sunday with my Skitarii, and I hate Eldar now.

First list was the 7 Scatterbikes I mentioned before, the terrain was ruins-heavy so there was a lot of LoS-blocking stuff that prevented me to shoot, while he could just use his over 9000" movement to shoot up everyone with this bullgak scatterlasers who covers the whole damn map. I killed ONE motojet.

Second list was another with 3 Scatterbikes and 5 or 6 Hawks, don't remember the exact number. I just remember his 18" movement and my horrible save throws. And their disruption grenades who destroyed my Dragoon in a turn. Long story short I got tabled by turn 3 and killed one motojet and two Hawks.

This is just horrifying, how did they thought these bikes were balanced at all ? Now if I want to have a slight chance of winning I need to have the luck to not have them picked as opponents.

Let me guess-each individual Hawk threw a Haywire Grenade? Or at least multiples?

Grenades are kind of borked in Kill Teams.

That being said, that's probably a minor issue compared to the rest of the Eldar issues.

Yes they were fairly close so just two guys threw their grenades and poof he's gone.

I admit Skitarii may not be that powerful in Kill Teams but there's not a lot of things that could face these in honest combat, apart from other Scatterbikes.

Question: do veteran vanguard individual units get Heroic Intervention individually in Kill Team?