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Is there any reference to sea battles in the fluff? Does the Imperium, for example, have any sea-going ships or a 'Navy' in the sense we have navies in the real world? I know the Imperial Navy is mostly space ships...

Orks use naval warfare.

The term you are looking for is "wet navy". Planetary defence forces would be the ones using them.

Orks use submersibles and used a couple during Armageddon.

The imperial navy has spacecraft that can hover and skimmers. These alone render surface wet navies obsolete for the most part. Orbit to surface guns beats surface to surface.

Space marine power armour can be used underwater (they'll just walk along the bottom). Assault jump packs could be modified for aquatic use (like thruster units divers use), though.

There's a pretty awesome sea battle in the Soul Drinkers omnibus. Just one of many reasons to read a gritty, awesome series.

there is a space wolf battle against the tau where they assault an underwater base. Its not naval boats but that's off the top of my head.

The second book in The Beast Arises series includes naval warfare between orks and Imperial Guard.

Hum, it's not much, but "Flesh and Iron" is heavily Vietnam inspired with some boat action, but not majestic dreadnoughts pounding each other with massive cannons.

In a world with superheavy vehicles, there clearly isn't too much concern about missile/airstrikes/etc, so a wet navy probably makes sense in worlds with oceans. What I mean is, if a vehicle like a Baneblade or a Battlefortress or even an Imperial Knight makes sense, then 40k doesn't have the same level of high powered, accurate anti-armor weaponry that modern forces have. If you can armor a tracked vehicle to withstand firepower, you certainly can armor a floating vehicle to do the same.

I can imagine an industrialized imperial world with extensive island chains using a wet navy for fire support, power projection, etc.

I don't know. Why have a wet navy when you can spend the resources on spaceships instead, which do everything a seaship does and more? The main roles of a navy are transport of troops across the sea, protecting sea-based transport routes and heavy fire support for land-based operations. Spacecraft can fulfill all those roles from low orbit, with smaller craft even able to enter the atmosphere. So why still have sea ships?
The only places where I can see a wet navy making sense is on planets consisting mostly of ocean, where the navy would fulfill the role normally played by an army on land-based planets.
I don't think wet navies are very common in the Imperium.

Wouldn't spaceships just be better in everyway?

I can see civilian transport ships maybe but military??

Yep. It's not as valuable to a military with aerospace assets as it is to a military restricted to a single world, however.

I am sure there is.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I don't know. Why have a wet navy when you can spend the resources on spaceships instead, which do everything a seaship does and more? The main roles of a navy are transport of troops across the sea, protecting sea-based transport routes and heavy fire support for land-based operations. Spacecraft can fulfill all those roles from low orbit, with smaller craft even able to enter the atmosphere. So why still have sea ships?
The only places where I can see a wet navy making sense is on planets consisting mostly of ocean, where the navy would fulfill the role normally played by an army on land-based planets.
I don't think wet navies are very common in the Imperium.

I'm not sure if any planets have a dedicated space fleet though, and certainly not a "planetary defense fleet" analogue to the PDF.

Even among Space Marines, a lot of campaign movement is on the surface, not airborne or space lifted. If I were a planetary governor on a world with oceans and islands, I'd want a way to use that. Sure, if I could build spacecruisers, I would, but only a handful of forgeworlds can build space craft. Any industrialized planet can produce a wet navy battleship.

Planets would invest in a navy for the same reason they invest in heavy stubbers instead of heavy bolters: they're cheaper, and they're available.

In "Fall Of Damnos", it's referenced that the Necrons drained the oceans, rendering the PDFs Wet-Navy obsolete.

There is a navalish ( or at least coastal )battle in one of the war of the beast novels. But 40k novels tend to focus away from stuff that doesn't happen on the battlefield.

40K Used to include some rules and units for wet battles.They where always quite obscure and not that popular probably due to the hobby challenges, eventually they where phased out. Most of the traditional products for making wet terrain features are either not that good looking, messy or too toxic for responsible use by inexperienced hobbies. The rule mechanics make it even worse. Water in 40k battles are quite restrictive. Water models can't leave it and ground stuff can't get in.

 Polonius wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I don't know. Why have a wet navy when you can spend the resources on spaceships instead, which do everything a seaship does and more? The main roles of a navy are transport of troops across the sea, protecting sea-based transport routes and heavy fire support for land-based operations. Spacecraft can fulfill all those roles from low orbit, with smaller craft even able to enter the atmosphere. So why still have sea ships?
The only places where I can see a wet navy making sense is on planets consisting mostly of ocean, where the navy would fulfill the role normally played by an army on land-based planets.
I don't think wet navies are very common in the Imperium.

I'm not sure if any planets have a dedicated space fleet though, and certainly not a "planetary defense fleet" analogue to the PDF.

Even among Space Marines, a lot of campaign movement is on the surface, not airborne or space lifted. If I were a planetary governor on a world with oceans and islands, I'd want a way to use that. Sure, if I could build spacecruisers, I would, but only a handful of forgeworlds can build space craft. Any industrialized planet can produce a wet navy battleship.

Planets would invest in a navy for the same reason they invest in heavy stubbers instead of heavy bolters: they're cheaper, and they're available.

Some of the Imperium's standard spacecraft are designed to be extremely simple to construct. Even worlds without dedicated shipbuilding facilities or expertise can build them. In the Battlefleet Gothic rulebook there is even an example of a Lunar Class cruiser being built on a feral world. Any planet that would be capable of building sea-going warships would easily be capable of building a small fleet of spaceships.
Also, most worlds appear to have some kind of small dedicated defensive fleet. At least they are mentioned very often.

Wow, that's cool. I assumed they'd be very high tech, but if any planet can make them, I suppose that changes the value of a wet navy.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Any planet that would be capable of building sea-going warships would easily be capable of building a small fleet of spaceships.

Like the vikings did. And they ended up being furries in space. See what feral spaseship building ends up like!

http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/tyrant-of-the-hollow-worlds-ebook.html

has some wet navy -- useful term, thank you -- action.


TBF Huron's MASSIVE ships also have rollers and crawl on the land so ....

The main use, outside of PDF policing actions, I can see for wet-navy action is a situation in which the Imperial Navy is denied surface access, such as enemy controlled Surface-Orbit Defences, a stronger enemy presence in orbit or a greater need for the fleet to be elsewhere. In situations like that, the main fire-support would come from conventional assets such as Air Units or Naval and Ground Artillery. Having said that, I can actually see other uses in that I should imagine that Naval Units also have the benefit over Air or Orbit assets in certain situations as they can use topography and sea-conditions to 'hide' and ambush enemy shipping or snipe ground units from out of their range - which air power cannot do due to operational range and orbital assets cannot fulfill due to either a short target window or total disproportionate firepower.You have to consider that, even to Space Marines, the calling in of an orbital strike is a big deal - it is an expensive asset, similar to how a modern-day Javelin missile costs around about £60,000 a pop. In cases where a smaller, more prolonged or more precise strikes are needed, then Ground or Naval artillery is far better suited. Obviously, you can argue that Space vessels carry all caliber of armament, but in practice, they aren't going to be armed with anything less than space vessel killing weaponry. Even the smallest exo-atmospheric fighter still reaches around the 60m - 70m mark in length, and it isn't restricted by gravity in relation to armour plating - hence even close-support weapons of a space vessel are inordinately powerful for use in anything other than a full-scale orbital strike. Really, if there is a need for Imperial Guard weaponry such as Basilisks, Earthshakers et al, then the same applies to naval weaponry. If orbital fire could do everything as well as an artillery bombardment or a tank's direct fire, then you would all have armies of nothing but infantry. At least, that's my take on it.

A planet may mantian a security patrol navy.
Wet ships that check on ships and maybe provide a early warning forna costal city.

If.planet very wet. It makes sense to have thios to control that. There security ships. And if a coatal town rebels. There mobile artillery to make rebels be purged.

Add.. Ships can carry heavy guns at higher speed than land...
At larger size. But its a thought. Sea going makes big artillery more effective.

Harder to counter battery a warship via artillery than a land based slower system.
Also you might have a moniter type class that is smaller ship but heavy guns.

Like a mobile heavy gun platform. There too slow for navel.combat etc but just coast pounders.
One ww2 model has 15invh turret fixed to a destroyer size ship!

Locked firing etc. But heavy dalla for size.

Lastyl a costal defense shipmmay sacrifice range and speed for guns and armour.
There not meant for open sea but you could have a heavy pdf ship that patrols coast as ships more effective on that planet than air.
Maybe jet grade fuel tare but bunker oil is comman.

Use what you can fuel.

The Necromunda anthology Status: Deadzone includes Descent by Simon Jowett. A near novella length short story that includes a privateer submarine plying the murky depths of the toxic Sump under the Hive Primus Underhive. If nothing else, it confirms the existence of a sort of ship of war, and an environment where it could exist unmolested by orbital bombardment.

In parallel with modern day earth, aircraft didn't make seagoing navies obsolete. Aircraft certainly changed the way sea navies fought wars with aircraft carriers replacing ye olde battleships, but having a wet navy still has it's advantages. In the same vein, just because we can transport goods around the world using aircraft, doesn't mean that we do. Shipping stuff by boat is cheaper, so that's what we do.

So I would think that any Imperial world with large amounts of surface area covered by water (or other liquid) would have a decent chance of having wet-ships as a form of cheap transport. And any world that might have competing factions, corperations, priesthoods (whatever) might find a good use for protecting their ships, ports etc. and therefore have some sort of military presence in their oceans.

Or you could easily come up with a more unique scenario. Maybe the planets main resource is under-ocean mining, and they have huge installations under water for the purpose. Protecting those installations are floating platforms, boats and submarines. And supplies are run back and forth to the land masses using big boats, submarines, submersible crawlers, etc.

It's not something that comes up much in the broad-strokes fluff of 40K, but there's definitely room for it.

 TheDraconicLord wrote:
Hum, it's not much, but "Flesh and Iron" is heavily Vietnam inspired with some boat action, but not majestic dreadnoughts pounding each other with massive cannons.

Spoiler:

Good suggestion, TheDraconicLord.

I enjoyed that book. The main characters are tooling around in river boats, but the main Imperial forces are actually inhabiting the sea/coast since a Chaos insurgency is infesting the mainland portions of the continent. If memory serves there is mention of some of the larger Imperial wet navy assets, and the final assault of the book takes place at sea. Definitely check out the novel if you are interested in the Imperial wet navy. Also it has some Sisters of Battle scenes which are always fun.

There are instances of "System Defence Forces" in the fiction; they tend to use non-Warp-capable ships, for obvious reasons.

Having said that, sea-going military units could still be useful. Submarines may well be difficult to detect from space, and would be useful as mobile anti-space weapon platforms. If the planet has a sizeable ocean (like Earth), then you may well have many oceanic industrial sites (mining, oil drilling, etc) or space launch platforms (It's a good idea to put your launch sites as close to the equator as possible to benefit from the increased tangential velocity; that's why Cape Canaveral is in Florida and the ESA uses sites in French Guiana), so if all your landmasses are off towards the poles, then it makes sense to float your spaceport out to sea. Once you've got a sizeable industrial base floating in the ocean, you'll need some means of defending it.

In the early 90s, this was entered into Golden Demon:

I can think of 2 reasons why you might have floating fighting forces.

1) The planet is not controlled by one faction. Like how Armageddon has some jungles full of orks that they just cannot seem to get rid of, some imperial planets might have orks on an otherwirse inhospitable island and are just unable to get rid of them. Similarly there might be an Eldar Exodite planet that lacks the numbers to conquer and secure the entire planet, leaving part of it inhabbited by humans, orks or something else.
If there are 2 factions on a planet, then the idea of putting military forces on boats might make sense.

2) Large guns places on floating platforms would suffer less recoil and be able to move a bit vs land based emplacements. If you were going to build orbital defense guns inside the atmosphere of the planet(where that atmosphere sheilds them a bit and being on the surface protects them from boarding actions) then having them on floating platforms makes a lot of sense.

Stuff that floats is easier and less costly to maintain than stuff that flies. Also boats can carry an awful lot more than aircraft of a similar displacement. I don't think boats will go out of fashion even in the far future.

Plenty of primitive worlds in the Imperium with no access to fancy spacecraft. Fenrisian natives have Viking-style sea battles with longships in the Ragnar Blackmane books.

 Flinty wrote:
Stuff that floats is easier and less costly to maintain than stuff that flies. Also boats can carry an awful lot more than aircraft of a similar displacement. I don't think boats will go out of fashion even in the far future.

Also mount bigger guns with faster mobility on a sea going platform potentially.
Against a imperial often tracked transport system.

In the old comic they had a imperial cruiser (sea) fighting Nids. They thought they where safe at sea. Well turns out not at all.