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torblind wrote:

AP 4 weapons is - 2,so 3+ becomes 5+

Doesn't work out for the Eldar in practice.

Starcannons? You can fit two onto a vyper, a squad of three puts out six shots, Ap-3 Strength 6 (wounding most things on 3's) and doing 3 damage. A single squad of these can delete a three man destroyer unit in one round of only moderately lucky shooting. It's overkill firing these at warriors, but it conveniently ignores their armour entirely.
Shuriken Catapults? Does an Ap-3 shot if you roll a six, essentially modern rending, deletes warriors like there's no tomorrow, especially if guided and god forbid you're doomed to boot.
Shadow Weavers? Same rending as before, 48'' range, a D6 shots amd srength 6. God help you if they brought D cannons on those Vaul's batteries. Stength 10, AP -4 and a D6 wounds a piece.
Did I mention the Str 8 Ap-4 Bright lances yet, which you can carry six of on a three man walker unit that has 18 wounds at T 6 that can walk 12'' a turn and still fire and have an Invulnerable save?

The Eldar have, as their tagline suggests, Firepower matched only by their arrogance, coupled with a very fleet army, a very good psychic palette, even with only three powers. It's why I'm going back to the drawing board to be honest.

I don't charge my HQ into CC, so taking a HPS is just throwing points off of a cliff. Also It only takes two marine deaths to pay for the SoL, and those can be done in our out of melee, so even worst case it will pay for itself.

There are two situations where the ghost ark won't be active, they wiped out your warriors or they didn't shoot your warriors. The second is a little more likely.

As for mathhammer with a cryptek it's already been done:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kJB9wnpPRdyBy6tckVUJQzNlISKL_MpmOa4FfHMl2Gc

But yes, crypteks are for warriors, immortals benefit significantly less from them. The best unit for them is actually destroyers, as the benefit from a +1 to RP is much higher with pricey three wound units.

Also AP 4 weapons became AP -1, AP 3 became -2, and AP 2 became -3, and AP 1 became -4. We are the exception to this because gauss just gave us a flat -1 ap on top of our normal AP.

I've watched a good 12 streams of 8th edition games over the past week and even with screening units and tricks like obyron you are going to find your phalanx taking part in some fight phases, possibly more of those than you will have eligible targets within 12" of the guy that's hiding behind the phalanx in your shooting phase. And to be fair at least some of those 18 points are for the staff of light's melee profile so its not like some great crime to trade the shooting profile you might not even use for 15 points.

 skoffs wrote:
No but seriously,
Someone should really run the numbers to see our buffing units (eg. Overlords, Destroyer Lords, Ghost Arks, Crypteks, T.Stalkers) are worth their points vs just adding equivalent points in guys to your army.
Eg.
An Overlord (119 points) grants MWBD to a unit of 10 Immortals. Would that be more effective than just his point cost in 7 extra Immortals (119 points) adding to the shooting?
A Cryptek and a Ghost Ark (274 points) keep near 20 Warriors. Would they be better than just having an extra 23 Warriors (276 points) on the table in the first place?
A Destroyer Lord (142) hangs with 3 Heavy Destroyers. Would him letting them reroll their 1s to wound be better than just adding another 2 Heavies (150) instead?
etc.

More models are better than MWBD alone.
However you are required to take, in most cases, at least 2 HQs.

What makes the OL solid is that MWBD also buffs WS and the OL himself is pretty good in CC. With warriors yoù want to eventually end up in rapid fire range and then you will also likely be charged or charge yourself.

A Cryptek is better than an Overlord in the sense that it buffs multiple units, but it does not give them more punch in CC.

You will most likely need to play a few games to get a sense what works for you. I've only played one game of 8th with one OL and no Cryptek (1000p). MWBD was actually very nice to have and both the OL and the Warrior unit he supported ended up in CC and won thanks to MWBD and the OL and his War Scythe.

There's also just the fact that melee is much better in 8th then it was in 7th. You're going to see much more of it in general.

It's one of the things that makes C'tan in the unit really dangerous.

Drewtavian wrote:

Oh, and anyone getting/know what the Forge World books have in store for us?
(let us know as soon, a lot of lists may be hinging on the gaps they can fill for us)

These are the items from the forge world book

Cron army list / data sheets
Canoptic tomb stalker
" acanthrites
" tomb sentinel
night shroud
sentry pylon
tomb citadel
Tesserae the ark
Kutlakh the world killer
Toholk the blinded
Gauss pylon

Yes, we've known WHAT we are getting for a while now, but we don't know what those things do yet.

Requizen wrote:
Again, nobody knows. We'll know on the 24th when the book comes out.

This said it was available now...
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/16/rules-for-forge-world-xenos-and-imperium-now-available/
... but the actual thing says 23rd.

wut?

"The final two Imperial Armour Index books are available to buy from Forge World right now. [...] If you’ve got any of these models (or you just want to see what they do!) and want rules for them, pick up Imperial Armour – Index: Forces of the Astra Militarum and Imperial Armour – Index: Xenos from Forge World. Digital copies are also available via Warhammer Digital."

 skoffs wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Again, nobody knows. We'll know on the 24th when the book comes out.

Actually...
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/16/rules-for-forge-world-xenos-and-imperium-now-available/

Available for preorder. Will be available to download on the 23rd/24th (depending on time zone drama).

Found this on another thread....space marine player lost to crons

Just as an update. I got fisted by Necrons.

5x Ann. Barges
1x CCB
1x Destroyer Lord
2x Doom SCythes
2x8 Tomb Blades
2x Triarch Stalkers

was painful. Was tabled end of 3.


Pros:
- Storm talons rape. Run them assasult cannons and skyhammer missiles. Nukes flyers

- Predators are NASTY. 4d6 needing 3+ 2+ for 4d6 dmg if all go through. POP!

- Dreads get targeted easily and Str8 doesnt save you all the time.

- +1 save from cover is dumb.

- 5x assault marines with chainswords is the way to go. Volume of dice and free pts

Cons -

- +1 save from cover is dumb

- Necrons are WAY strong and shielding is impossible to fight with las.

- Failed charged = death. He can over watch as many times as he wants until you get someone within 1"

- Necrons on 6s get tesla = 3 shots. This is BRUTAL for overwatch.

- He Siezed init and took out 3 dreads and a pred turn 1. Crippling

punisher357 wrote:
Found this on another thread....space marine player lost to crons

Just as an update. I got fisted by Necrons.

LOL, that made my day. I think the necron list might be a tad horrible, but you know what they say, if it's dumb and it works, it isn't dumb. I can just imagine doom scythes popping a dread apiece, and five annihilation barges is 40 s7 tesla shots on top of 10 gauss cannon shots. Then add some rerolling 1s shenanigans from the stalkers. It's enough volume of fire to make scat bike spam look like amatuer hour. The cherry on top of that is the Marines only anti-vehicle weapons were las cannons, which quantum shielding negates a little less than half the time. That must have been a hilarious battle.

Yep. Quantum Shield spam is freaking legit. In fact, a lot of vehicles in the game can be spammed pretty effectively. I need to break apart my Ghost Ark into a DDArk maybe, but I have a butt ton of Barges, a Stalker, 3 Flyers, and a DDArk besides it. What a time to be alive.

I have a feeling things might have gone the other way if the Necron player hadn't seized.
I don't think I've seen a single 8th Ed. battle report where the seizing player hasn't won.

From now on, I can see it being a case of,
A: "I'll go first."
B: "I rolled a 6 to seize..."
A: "... Well, good game, then."
*both players pack up their models*

I played way more AoS then I played 40K (7th only).

I think the random turn mechanic works fine in AOS, but in 40K, at least in 8th, seizing seems to be so much more random and detrimental to the player who deployed with going first in mind.

Seems like a hyper random way to just lose the game.

DoggieDoo wrote:
I played way more AoS then I played 40K (7th only).

I think the random turn mechanic works fine in AOS, but in 40K, at least in 8th, seizing seems to be so much more random and detrimental to the player who deployed with going first in mind.

Seems like a hyper random way to just lose the game.

This is one of the reasons I think the Deciever is an auto include. You don't have to attempt an alpha if you get seized on, you can just use it as a redeploy.

Hi,

I'm a totally new player to warhammer 40k, and coming week I'll have my first battle. It's with 50 PL, and I'll have to throw in my full collection just to make it to that mark. This will be my list:

1x Overlord with res orb
1x Orikan the Diviner

2x 10 warriors
1x 5 immortals tesla

1x Annihilation Barge with tesla cannon
1x Triarch Stalker with ?

I have no idea what kind of army I'll be facing. Are their any tips for the loadout on the Stalker and the Overlord? And maybe some general remarks to keep in mind?

Thanks!

Aeonir wrote:

Spoiler:

1x Overlord with res orb
1x Orikan the Diviner

2x 10 warriors
1x 5 immortals tesla

1x Annihilation Barge with tesla cannon
1x Triarch Stalker with ?

In a list like this I'd normally I'd say drop the Orb, as there's nothing really to use it on... but you're not playing points, meaning it's basically free, so there's no reason not to take it.
Probably just take the Heat Ray on the Stalker, just in case vehicles.
Unit of 20 Warriors would be better than two of 10... but you need three troop units for a Battalion, so *shrug*

Aeonir wrote:
Hi,

I'm a totally new player to warhammer 40k, and coming week I'll have my first battle. It's with 50 PL, and I'll have to throw in my full collection just to make it to that mark. This will be my list:

1x Overlord with res orb
1x Orikan the Diviner

2x 10 warriors
1x 5 immortals tesla

1x Annihilation Barge with tesla cannon
1x Triarch Stalker with ?

I have no idea what kind of army I'll be facing. Are their any tips for the loadout on the Stalker and the Overlord? And maybe some general remarks to keep in mind?

Thanks!

You havent got -3 AP so i will be take Twin Heavy Gauss Cannon for stalker.
I also prefere Illuminor Szeras for cryptek slot for boost troops.
Take warscate for Overlord because new intervention is realy cool.
AB may be too expensive for 50 PL. Think aboute bigger troops squad for MVBD.

So BatRep time again

Two C'tan, Imotekh, warriors, immortals, pair of scythes, basically v 2 of my list. I ended up playing Eldar because my Dark Eldar opponent had to leave suddenly. Lost again, but made him work for it.

Decided to play ultra-agressive. Rolled a six on the GI, opponent didn't seize, so I dropped the warriors and immortals, Deceiver and Nighbringer right infront of his army and proceeded to gut the center of his infantry formation of Guardians. Aimed the Doom Scythes at his War Walkers, but they fluffed it terribly, while Imotekh and the last unit of warriors ran for a nearby objective, rolled a one and sighed.

My opponent took the oppertunity to remind me that his Vypers could move very far by dropping them behind my line, and the Deceiver whom I had placed behind the Nightbringer took 5 wounds to the face once all the shooting was done, my immortals were down four units and my warriors had two guys left and got charged by the Wraithlord. while my immortals got charged by his wraithblades. The nightbringer Heroically Intervened, I rolled really well on my save and the Ap-4 fists accounted for first blood.

My second turn I only brought back two warriors and two immortals. Imotekh let loose the STORM, killed a war Walker outright and then proceeded to proc onto a warlook and the last dude of one of the guardian squads killing them both.The deceiver and the Nightbringer vented their fury on the Vypers, killing two and wounding one. The doomscythes continued to achieve nothing, this time firing at a Vauls Support battery

My opponent promply swung virtually everything left in his army round to the side, a single full powered Smite wiped out the four warriors, the remaining Viper nailed the Deceiver, and everything else put 6 wounds onto the Nightbringer, while his Wraithblades slowly cut the immortals to pieces.

In turn three I forced my nightbringer as far over as I could, then fired everything to clear away the remaining guardian unit to allow the nightbringer to slay his farseer, but he took a single wound in the process, while the immortals were finally slain by the Waithblades and the Scythes swanned off the board to return later.(we were using the advanced Aerial rules)

In his turn a single Warlock smite killed the Nightbringer, the Wraithblades fell back allowing everything to open up on my final squad of warriors, and we called it at the end of turn 3 with Imotekh and two scythes surviving on my side, one Vyper, a warlock, two War Walkers and the Vauls Battery on his.

I lost five to three in Victory points I believe.

The Grand llusion is an amazingly good party trick. Even if the opponent seizes it allows you to relocate key units for maximum counter-effect, and if he doesn't it allows for a tremendous amount of flexibility. The Eldar still move really fast, but if a big chunk of your army is sitting twelve inches away they HAVE to honor the threat.

Smite is still the bane of the C'tan. I think that had I better wrapped the Deceiver in turn one with a unit to deny those initial four wounds, the game might have gone differently, on the other hand I wouldn't have kept the immortals on the board for las long as I did so it's odds and evens.

The Scythes were unimpressive. Hitting on 4+ really bites for your heavy weapons and the random D3 hits means that you're as likely to get one hit, that misses 50% of the time and that's not good points value. It's worth noting that they were tougher than expected simply because he couldn't dedicate the firepower he wanted to them as the C'tan make an amazing distraction.

Still, I doubt I'll use the Doom scythes again on a 4 x 4. They move to far, and clever spreading out of units means it can actualy be hard to place the base so that it's 1 inch away from everything, and I was unimpressed by their firepower. The Tesla did more damage than the death ray and isn't that sad.,

Next game I'll test out arks, both ghost and Doomsday. For now, I think the Deceiver is going to remain a permanent part of my army. GI is just too good, both offensively and defensively.

I was also pleasantly surprised by Imotekh. His Call The Storm power is beastly if you roll well, he's got decent shooting and MWBD is always worth having.

So played some 1k games today and I must say that doomsday arks w/ stalker are amazing...

Also tesla immortals /w overlord are also amazing


These will both be in any list I build from now on most likely

Edit: scarabs were pretty meh. Pretty much the def of filler

Got in another game today, 2k against marines. I won it but felt that the doomsday ark didn't really bring it, might be because I rolled one for every number of shots, but even at it's best I didn't feel like it was as good as 3 heavy destroyers. One of the clutch players was actually my spyder, who ended up putting six wounds back on my DDA over the course of the fight, and keeping it out of it's wounded profile for two turns of heavy fire. Brought nightbringer, and with arrow of time he was stupid good. Samuel almost got him, but he was able to fall back and let the immortals smoke him. Blowing up a storm raven over my lines was like the worst pinata ever, his terminators landed and on his following turn took out my stalker. All in all fun game and much better than my dark angels game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I've been debating how to talk about necrons for someone who is maybe new to this edition, so keeping things approachable and still conveying some of the nuance of list building, without getting as long winded as the average 1d4chan articles get. So my thought is since a statline is pretty easy to understand, and efficiency is covered elsewhere, I thought I'd focus on the combos you'll have to bring to make your list more than the sum of it's parts. Specifically talking about the combo makers and what units pair well with them.

HQ
Overlord - +1 to hit/Advances/Charge Distances is useful for anyone, but it only affects infantry with the <Dynasty> Keyword. It's most notable with tesla wielding Immortals who get twice the value out of the tesla Special rule. Generally speaking only Lychguard will get any value out of the charges aspect, as our other CC units aren't infantry, or don't have the <Dynasty> Keyword.

Cryptek - Two defensive arua, one for a 5++ save vs shooting, and one for a +1 to RP, both at a 3" range (I guess they are clingy or something). This one is a little trickier than it first appears, the initial thought was to park them next to a 20 man blob of warriors, but it turns out that it doesn't help the warriors much as the RP on a 20 man warrior blob is already very good, and a 5++ save doesn't help as much vs the weapons that are good vs warriors blobs. To get the most out of him you'll want him to be near expensive units with RP that tend to draw fire from high AP weapons, so destroyers or lychguard w/ warscythes. For instance with destroyers each additional RP is 63 points, and an invul save vs a lascannon could be the same.

Lord - Arguably better for babysitting warrior blobs than a cryptek, since he allows you to reroll failed morale checks. At about 7 or so casualties morale start being a concern, and rerolling a bad morale check will probably save more warriors than a +1 to RP.

Destroyer Lord - The closest we have a beat stick in our HQ, Tough, with lots of wounds, his only real combo is with destroyers, which he allows to reroll ones to damage. If your planning on bringing destroyers he is the HQ for you since he can keep up with them.

Catacomb Command Barge - More or less an overlord on a skateboard, 12" move and a 12" range on my will be done. However he has low wounds (for a vehicle) and is not a character, so he will get smoked the second your opponent decides to get even a little serious in his removal. Skip until he gets the character keyword or more wounds, or both.

Elites
Triarch Stalker - If it shoots at an enemy all of your units reroll ones to hit against his target. Universally useful, best used against units that can take a lot of fire. For buff reasons and for reasons of bringing more anti-fattie weapons, I'd suggest the twin Heavy gauss cannons. It has the best range.

C'Tan shard of the Deceiver - Grand illusion wins games, you get to redeploy the deceiver and a D3 units (worth blowing a command point on if you get a 1) to anywhere on the board more than 12" away from an enemy. It happens after seize so you will always know what you're getting into. Good combos are units with access to tomb world reserves as these can immediately pull people from the tomb worlds on your turn, kind of like matryoshka dolls.

Heavy
Tomb Spyder - Repairs vehicles and replenishes scarabs, which are our go to screening unit. They also block psychic powers if equipped correctly.

Ok so I think we can all agree from playing some games and seeing online batraps that necrons are never going to win a dakka dakka race against a properly built list at range or cc.
So wearing them down while refusing to stay down is our supposed niche. My gaming group have also found that the psychic phase is no joke and if use properly can turn a close game to a blow out.
Also in testing all our characters seem to not be worth it, that extra 60 points for Zahndrekh or even 40 points for Szeras in more effective in troops or vehicle options.

So with that in mind this is my list I will test out next week.
I call it my "Choke on this" list



Feel free to tear my list apart if you find anything you think is wrong.

I am trying to decide what is better of these two

Spearhead detachment (+1 CP)

Overlord 112
- Warscythe

Doomsday ark 203
- doomsday cannon
- 2 gauss flayer arrays

Doomsday ark 203
- doomsday cannon
- 2 gauss flayer arrays

Annihilation barge 153
- Twin tesla destructor
- Gauss cannon

Or

Spearhead detachment (+1 CP)

Overlord 112
- Warscythe

Doomsday ark 203
- doomsday cannon
- 2 gauss flayer arrays

Doomsday ark 203
- doomsday cannon
- 2 gauss flayer arrays

Canoptek Spyder 109
- fabracator claw array
- gloomprism
- two particle beamers

Second one gives a possible psychic denial a repair for for the DDAs and also gives me an extra 44 points to add more scarabs or make my deathmarks a unit of 10 instead of 9

Edit: the rest of the list would help. For 2k games

Battalion detachment (+3 CP)

Lord 84
- Warscythe

Cryptek 104
- staff of light

Warriors x 20 240
- gauss flayer

Warriors x 20 240
- gauss flayer

Immortals x 10 170
- Tesla carbine

Triarch stalker 181
- Twin heavy gauss cannon
- Massive forelimbs

Deathmarks x 9 180
- Synaptic disintegrator

Scarabs x 5 65
- feeder mandibles

Scarabs x 5 65
- feeder mandibles

Pyrothem wrote:
scarab list with no warriors

Looks interesting, I'd rather see it in action first, and then tear it apart when I know how it fared

Question about the Doom Scythe - it has to move every turn, yet has a heavy weapon, doesn't that mean it will always be a -1 to hit? I searched the thread but didn't see that mentioned. Played one last night and missed every hit roll on the heavy.

ski107 wrote:
Question about the Doom Scythe - it has to move every turn, yet has a heavy weapon, doesn't that mean it will always be a -1 to hit? I searched the thread but didn't see that mentioned. Played one last night and missed every hit roll on the heavy.

Yes. It will always fire the death ray at -1 to hit.
Its not the only unit that does that too; the Crimson hunter only has heavy weapons, and it must move as well.

Just reading through the crypteks profile, and Ive realised we need a cryptek per unit to give the 4+, as it specifically states that its models from units within 3", not like the chronometron which just specifies units within 3". Annoying.

 Klowny wrote:
Just reading through the crypteks profile, and Ive realised we need a cryptek per unit to give the 4+, as it specifically states that its models from units within 3", not like the chronometron which just specifies units within 3". Annoying.

Yup that is why you are seeing pretty much every list with the minimum HQs as possible. Our HQs are kind of a tax really, you are mathematically better off spending points on troops then ever getting more HQs then requires. If they ever make a HQless detachment with lots of troop options we will be one of the only races to jump on that and never look back.

We went over that one earlier, its worded poorly but it means it's effecting models from the unit you are within 3" of. You can't actually be within 3" of the models themselves since they were removed from the board entirely as casualties earlier.

 Actinium wrote:
We went over that one earlier, its worded poorly but it means it's effecting models from the unit you are within 3" of. You can't actually be within 3" of the models themselves since they were removed from the board entirely as casualties earlier.

And certainly one cryptek could serve many units? Just need to be 3" from him

Pyrothem wrote:

 Klowny wrote:
Just reading through the crypteks profile, and Ive realised we need a cryptek per unit to give the 4+, as it specifically states that its models from units within 3", not like the chronometron which just specifies units within 3". Annoying.

Yup that is why you are seeing pretty much every list with the minimum HQs as possible. Our HQs are kind of a tax really, you are mathematically better off spending points on troops then ever getting more HQs then requires. If they ever make a HQless detachment with lots of troop options we will be one of the only races to jump on that and never look back.

I could not disagree more. I have found our HQs to be incredibly effective in every game I have played.

Also, a Cryptek can easily cover 3 or 4 units.

 Actinium wrote:
We went over that one earlier, its worded poorly but it means it's effecting models from the unit you are within 3" of. You can't actually be within 3" of the models themselves since they were removed from the board entirely as casualties earlier.

My apologies, we have done this. Exams have wrecked my memory for non-uni things atm