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Yes, one hit per shot, as stated.

Ah, right on. It seemed you were suggesting it only had 4 hits per abarge. My mistake!

NP, my example should have been on 8 not 4 shots for added clarity.

I know from observing myself that I have grown accustomed to hoping for more hits than shots, which is not unlikely, just not expected. Others probably have too. It might lead you to value it too highly.

Fair point on Orikan. I'll change him to a B, with conditional A status if taking Lychguard.

Also, if you're taking Toholk, giving his one-vehicle-only ability to an A.Barge would be a huge waste. Presumably if you're taking him its because you have something worth keeping alive.

And for whoever asked about taking Crypteks with Immortals, no. Just get more immortals instead.

Technically, for nameless Crypteks with any of the legal targets at this time, they never make their points back on RP nor the Invulnerable save. Setting aside Detachment requirements and their shooting, you're always simply better off taking more of that model.

Quick question, guys - if I use 10 Deathmarks do you think it's better to run them as a single 10-man squad or as 2 5-man squads?

 vipoid wrote:
Quick question, guys - if I use 10 Deathmarks do you think it's better to run them as a single 10-man squad or as 2 5-man squads?

10man is better for:

-Survivability
-Getting first turn

5man is better for:

-Threat density
-Multi-targets with low wound counts

I prefer the 10man squad, but my lists with Deathmarks are only casual builds and do not have other more critical infantry targets for my opponents to shoot at.

Okay, finished the rest of the HQ, as well as updated the suggested changes.
Does this look good now?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/2190/715040.page#9453775

If so, I'll stick it in the OP.
(remember, this is primarily for new players who want a rough estimate on the "power levels" for everything available to Necrons. Can always edit it as the meta evolves)

 skoffs wrote:
Okay, finished the rest of the HQ, as well as updated the suggested changes.
Does this look good now?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/2190/715040.page#9453775

If so, I'll stick it in the OP.
(remember, this is primarily for new players who want a rough estimate on the "power levels" for everything available to Necrons. Can always edit it as the meta evolves)

Looks good to me!

 skoffs wrote:
Okay, finished the rest of the HQ, as well as updated the suggested changes.
Does this look good now?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/2190/715040.page#9453775

If so, I'll stick it in the OP.
(remember, this is primarily for new players who want a rough estimate on the "power levels" for everything available to Necrons. Can always edit it as the meta evolves)

Just one point:

 skoffs wrote:

Destroyer Lord: A- (Another beatstick with a Warscythe. If you take him you best take Destroyers, too, as it increases his grade to A+)

Could you please colour the A+? I know it's a minor thing but it's bugging me.

Other than that it looks fine.

Hey, my friend is starting Necrons. He got Immortals and start collecting.
What should he get next?
3x immortals
warriors
2x DDA(1 of them can be the ghost ship if needed)
3 destroyers
destro lord
one of the c'thans

Something like that?
Or better go FW ?
He'd like to make a 1000 and a 2000 list

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Hey, my friend is starting Necrons. He got Immortals and start collecting.
What should he get next?
3x immortals
warriors
2x DDA(1 of them can be the ghost ship if needed)
3 destroyers
destro lord
one of the c'thans

Something like that?
Or better go FW ?
He'd like to make a 1000 and a 2000 list

Is he just interested in a functional Necron army, or are there any units/strategies that appeal to him?

DDA and Warriors, imo.

 vipoid wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

Destroyer Lord: A- (Another beatstick with a Warscythe. If you take him you best take Destroyers, too, as it increases his grade to A+)

Could you please colour the A+? I know it's a minor thing but it's bugging me. .

Done.

Adding to the OP now.

 vipoid wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Hey, my friend is starting Necrons. He got Immortals and start collecting.
What should he get next?
3x immortals
warriors
2x DDA(1 of them can be the ghost ship if needed)
3 destroyers
destro lord
one of the c'thans

Something like that?
Or better go FW ?
He'd like to make a 1000 and a 2000 list

Is he just interested in a functional Necron army, or are there any units/strategies that appeal to him?

He want a good army that doesn't need to buy more than 4x of the same box pretty much. 4x immortals is the only "4 of" so far.

I have a box of lychguard/praetorians to assemble and I'm stuck on deciding what way to go. The praetorians seem really fun to use actually as if I build up to a 10 man I got a fairly mobile unit that shrugs off moral checks.

But with them lychguard and how hard they hit it's super tempting. Also if I do invest more into lychguard to run with FW Kutlahk, how many should I go with?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Hey, my friend is starting Necrons. He got Immortals and start collecting.
What should he get next?
3x immortals
warriors
2x DDA(1 of them can be the ghost ship if needed)
3 destroyers
destro lord
one of the c'thans

Something like that?
Or better go FW ?
He'd like to make a 1000 and a 2000 list

Is he just interested in a functional Necron army, or are there any units/strategies that appeal to him?

He want a good army that doesn't need to buy more than 4x of the same box pretty much. 4x immortals is the only "4 of" so far.

Wait, so to confirm,
Right now he has:
??x Immortals
12x Warriors
1x Stalker
1x Overlord
3x Scarabs

Correct?

If so, it might be a good idea to get the transport box-
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NZ/Necron-Warrior-Ark-Phalanx

GW themselves no longer carry it, but sometimes you can still find it online.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Solosam47 wrote:
if I do invest more into lychguard to run with FW Kutlahk, how many should I go with?

10-20 with Anrakyr tagging along. Probably worth consider a Cryptek as well.
The following setup is ridiculous, but... ... this combo will blend anything it touches that doesn't have a 3++.

sieGermans wrote:
Technically, for nameless Crypteks with any of the legal targets at this time, they never make their points back on RP nor the Invulnerable save. Setting aside Detachment requirements and their shooting, you're always simply better off taking more of that model.

The value of durability buffs on units with RP is not something you can mathammer.

If a buff pushes a unit past a particular threshold of durability which means they are not wiped in one turn the effect is massive. If a warrior squad would have been wiped out without an invul, but instead has a few models left, it can potentially RP back to full strength by the end of the game. The Cryptek giving that invul could be said to have made you back 240pts. Conversely, if a unit is wiped out then the RP buff from a Cryptek has no effect and that ability could be useless.

This is further complicated by the fact that a wise opponent will be calculating the probability of wiping a RP unit out before they start shooting. They may not fire at all if they don't have good odds of doing the job. How do you mathammer for the probability threshold at which any given opponent is going to feel comfortable shooting at you?

The value of a Cryptek is not in it's ability to bring back 1 extra model for every 6 RP rolls, it is in it's ability to prevent the unit being wiped so that it can do RPs (and then get a couple extra back up to make it harder again next turn). How likely that is to happen depends on what you're facing and how easy it is for them to focus fire on one unit.

You have to play it out to see what difference it makes in real games.

He has 5 immortals. You're right otherwise. He really wants a DDA so it's all good, he'll buy it and warriors seperatelly. Shipping costs too much to EU.

 Klowny wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

Eyjio wrote:
The invuln bit is also why I don't rank Orikan so highly. For a significant point increase, you gain the invuln in combat - which you shouldn't be in anyway. Then, the invuln only does anything in combat against weapons of at least AP-2. In my eyes, you're paying extra points to buff units in a situation they don't want to find themselves in, and for some good durability (plus a really random ability I guess). He's okay as a Cryptek, but I'd struggle to rank him above Szeras; I'd probably put him on the same level, a B. I certainly don't think he's close to an autotake unless you're running scythe Lychguard.

I'll cede you the Szeras point, but I disagree on Orikan. If you're taking him you're sticking him with expensive infantry that will likely be seeing a lot of dangerous AP damage (Lychguard, Destroyers, etc), at which point he's invaluable. Anyone who sticks with Warriors doesn't know what they're doing.

Yea I've found the 5++ isn't all it's cracked up to be, especially when you add cover into the mix. I feel szerath is one of the better crypteks, but I still rate toholk as the best of the bunch. All std abilities, buffs vehicles, allows seize rerolls (1st turn has helped me so much), and his weapon is better than average, with scary overwatch damage. Not overly expensive either. Orikan is best ran with lych, he's the best CC cryptek.

I'm not sold on H.Destroyers. Our vehicles (FW included) are comparable in damage and speed, but 10x more durable. I've found my vehicles have saved me from a tabling so I could win on points, something Destroyers can't promise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyone complaining about warriors being bad because GA aren't open topped obviously haven't ran a D-bomb with 40 warriors. Putting 40 of them in rapid fire range t1 is a brutal alpha strike. Will shred horde and elite armies front lines equally efficiently. Being open topped would be handy, removing the necessity of 2x 20 man squads and just having 1x 20 and 1x 10 in a GA,

That was me regarding the Warriors.

And I'd rather use the Deceiver to drop something more potent than Warriors and needs to be close by. Gauss Immortals, Lychguard, and certain HQ's. If I could just ferry the Warriors while shooting out the top of the Ark, they'd be fine. To use a Deceiver drop with Warriors though? Utter and complete waste of The Grand Illusion.

Thats is a good question: I do look for a good meele/ assault branch in the army myself. I got DDA/ Stalker for anti vehicle; Tesortals for hordes

- is a 10 x Lychguard / Anakyr squad suited for that or is it too slow?

- is a 10 man Praetorian squad better suited?

- or should one go for Phantoms or even a tomb sentinel/ stalker?

It should be pretty mobile and hit quite hard, to mix in a little cc hammer.

So, when it comes to Warrior blobs does the Lord's Will ability have any merits?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
He has 5 immortals. You're right otherwise. He really wants a DDA so it's all good, he'll buy it and warriors seperatelly. Shipping costs too much to EU.

That was just an example I linked to. If you can find that box for sale in the EU I would recommend getting it (and yes, a DDA + Stalker with HGC is a pretty good combo).
After that he'll have almost enough to make a decent Battalion.
Would probably get 1-3 more boxes of Immortals (so 10-20 models total) and then a Cryptek or a second Overlord.
Then for a basic 1000 point list he could make-

Hmmm didn't think about anakyr or that 2000 was the new 1850 lol.

Anyone run 10 man praetorians yet? 5 man seems too small but with their movement 10 and hitting only slightly less as hard as lychguard I really want to place good faith that they can make a fun and effective unit at tying up stuff so your blobs can move up and position better. Transports for necrons this edition I feel are lacking (should have made more dda's, so I need some stuff to take some shots while my troops position up.

I haven't ran my lord with a blob yet but but in most cases I can see how retooling moral would be strong with blobs. If moral doesn't wipe em out then you know a few more will stand up every turn, so being able to reroll that could be strong.

 skoffs wrote:
Okay, finished the rest of the HQ, as well as updated the suggested changes.
Does this look good now?

Dear Sir, You rated Anrakyr with C while he is currently one of the best HQ options if you compare his 167 cost to warscythe Overlord for 136.
For a 31 point difference You get :
+ Pyrrhian Legions + 1A to himself and all friendly infantry within 3". Try 20 blob warriors with 2A charge sometimes after shooting rapid fire.
+ Mind in the Machine, which gives a 50% chance to shoot enemy wehicle weapon within 12". Fun with enemy Knights or dreadnoughts.
+ Tachyon arrow, a 120" assault S10 D6 shooting attack. Yes, one per game but can be handy on first turn with 2+ to hit (reroll 1 with Stalker combo)
~ My will be done - just as on Overlord
I call all of above a bargain for that point difference and rate him A, while I would rate Overlord with B (usefull only if you want cheap, without warscythe).

Immortals rated A+ against A for Warriors.
Immortals are easilly destroyed (10 models cap) compared to Warriors. Reanimation Protocols and firepower of Immortals doesn't count if they are wiped out.
Survivability is the key. Also Immmortals cannot enter Ghost Arks.
So how could You rate Immortals higher than Warriors ??

Spyder "not very usefull" ? Have You ever played against enemy with psykers? No option to dispell that one gamebreaking psychic power is painfull.
And there will be psykers boosting enemy units especialy at higher points games.

I kinda agree with all other ratings, nice job.

 Solosam47 wrote:


I haven't ran my lord with a blob yet but but in most cases I can see how retooling moral would be strong with blobs. If moral doesn't wipe em out then you know a few more will stand up every turn, so being able to reroll that could be strong.

That's my thinking. If I can reroll Morale to keep those last Warriors from running so RP could do it's job then that sounds worth at least a B- rating to me.

which of the c'thans is better to buy to avoid paying shipping for cry :p

Ratings suggestions taken into account.
Adjusting OP report card section.

Took me a while to catch up on this thread.

Long time necron player here (back when the fluff was good...). I have a lot of experience with many armies, in both competition and casual play (yes, you can enjoy both).
I think the ratings are useful - BUT - things are quite different in 8th - and while there are some exceptions (Trazen, why?) most of the books have very good internal balance.
One of the biggest positives I have seen so far (in following multiple armies conversations) is that there is no single "this is the list!".
(oh, and everyone is unhappy most of their flyers are now hitting much more poorly with heavy weapons....at least crons started at a good BS)

Some players like the Deceiver bomb, some like destroyer spam, some like the monolith - some even get use out of the poor CCB (the 12" buff range is a tremendous asset to a tactically minded player).
Other times combos will be dismissed "the buffs are wasted because your opponent won't bother to shoot at them...".

The key to this game, is not that you have to beat the other army, but you have to beat the other player.

A few examples;
* Your unit that the other player won't try to shoot at IS doing its job - it is intimidation - which messes with their head - thus they can make mistakes. If YOU are smart, you capitalize on it - that is the unit you take the relic with, or charge up the middle etc. Or you use it to distract from your other, less durable threats that are part of your plan (you have a plan right?)

* If you are looking for a monolith to "earn its points" - you are missing out on its most potent weapon - intimidation. Drop a monolith 12" from the enemy lines - and best case they freak out, worse case you disrupt their plan. An Obelisk is even better. it takes a lot of firepower to destroy, and completely distracts the other player's game.

* no unit exists in isolation - good players can use scarabs to screen the backfield, to screen the front field or just to take objectives that no one is paying attention to late game (this happens A LOT in 8th....). likewise - smite is our bane - do not underestimate the gloom prism much less the fact that a repair spider can keep an DDA or even a monlith lasting a very long time.

My suggestion to newer players is the same as it has been for years - Play the game. Nothing, absolutely nothing replaces actual game experience.

Yes, math hammer is useful, and (well made) battle reports are just gold. But so many things have changed in 8th, that the best advice is to play, and apply critical thinking during the process.

 Xyxel wrote:

Dear Sir, You rated Anrakyr with C while he is currently one of the best HQ options if you compare his 167 cost to warscythe Overlord for 136.
For a 31 point difference You get :
+ Pyrrhian Legions + 1A to himself and all friendly infantry within 3". Try 20 blob warriors with 2A charge sometimes after shooting rapid fire.
+ Mind in the Machine, which gives a 50% chance to shoot enemy wehicle weapon within 12". Fun with enemy Knights or dreadnoughts.
+ Tachyon arrow, a 120" assault S10 D6 shooting attack. Yes, one per game but can be handy on first turn with 2+ to hit (reroll 1 with Stalker combo)
~ My will be done - just as on Overlord
I call all of above a bargain for that point difference and rate him A, while I would rate Overlord with B (usefull only if you want cheap, without warscythe).

Immortals rated A+ against A for Warriors.
Immortals are easilly destroyed (10 models cap) compared to Warriors. Reanimation Protocols and firepower of Immortals doesn't count if they are wiped out.
Survivability is the key. Also Immmortals cannot enter Ghost Arks.
So how could You rate Immortals higher than Warriors ??

Spyder "not very usefull" ? Have You ever played against enemy with psykers? No option to dispell that one gamebreaking psychic power is painfull.
And there will be psykers boosting enemy units especialy at higher points games.

I kinda agree with all other ratings, nice job.

Regular warscythe overlords are 112, not 136, so a 55 point gap.
Immortals lack the blob size of warriors but the weapon and armor save are a great value at only 5 more ppm, they're much better at 13"+ range, their smaller model count makes them easier to give cover bonus which doubles their survival rate, and if you just want to fill troop slots for command points a 5 man immortal squad is a viable little objective squatter while 10 man warrior squads are kind of trash, which is also part of why no one ever uses ghost arks as actual transports and only as flayer array / RP baby sitters for big blobs. I don't think the rating is meant to imply immortals are better than warriors, just that warriors require more points invested in both squad size and support options to be truly great.
Spyders are fine just kind of expensive for lascannon/melta bait. It's also serving 2 masters, it's 'monster' status and scarab hive make him want to be close to the front while his repair claw and gloom prism make you want to hide him in your back lines. I think either of the FW centipedes are better options for gloom prisms.