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Hey, first time poster here.

Has noone seen Kutlakhs stats? I mean Lychguard are getting hella stick BUT this guy lets them move, advance and charge all in one turn if he's close enough to the unit. He can then give them +1 to advances and charges and +1 to hit. That's hitting on 2+. I know warscythes + kutlakh is then 500 points but 20 hits on 2+ and then most probably 3+ (for the majority of infantry) with -4AP is sick right? Plus he makes them moveable.

Let's then throw Anrakyr in giving them an extra attack plus another warsythe and the use of an enemy vehicle weapon for added memes. 33 warsythe attacks and kutlakhs obsidiax x3. You're probably looking at hitting 30 of these in total doing 2 wounds -4 AP for the scythes and D3 -3 for Kutlakh. This even eats hordes.

Expensive combo at >660 points but could be the new death star when you think that Kutlakh and Anrakyr can walk in front of the Lychguard and soak up fire. Especially Kutlakh with 2+ 4++. He regains D3 from living metal and if a wound goes through of >2 damage just let one of the Lychguard intercept it and simply take 1 mortal wound instead. If you add a cryptek here we are then also looking at 4+ reanimation making for ever more memes.

Surely this has to be one of the best combos we can see which is relatable to Lychguard+royal court from 7e?

Thoughts?

Try proxying your midfield DDA as tesseract arks. Have an invuln, big tesla cannons, fleshbane flamer for overwatch and a big cannon like the DDA. I feel these are better suited for scooting about as they don't lose the big profile after moving, it's just heavy so at -1. Their secondary profile is assault too so it has a lot more flexibility. Finally both assault and heavy profiles are D6 instead of D3, ensuring more damage done overall.

GhostRecon wrote:Remembering a comment made earlier in the thread about the ITC first turn rule; didn't see it mentioned but you can't use a CP to seize the initiative under the ITC format. Or in the first battle round. Far more balanced that way.

Oh okay yea I haven't seen the ruling from ITC, just what has been said piecemeal on the boards. That sounds much better then overall.

ski107 wrote:People that are playing Deathmarks - are you usually going for just the 5 or a full 10?

Depends, 10 is better for ensuring a HQ is dead, (5 couldn't kill a puny Guard HQ in two turns ><, but had bad rolling) and also reduces unit numbers, but2x 5 are better for DS retaliation on things like scions. Depends on what your vs'ing.



He is good, but you have to remember that that combo is incredibly slow. A cryptek would also be good in there so the lychguard can absorb the abuse, have a 5++ and a 4+ RP. Then you need some way of getting them where they need to be. Deceiver and HQ's in a GA is probably the cheapest but they have to absorb around of shooting before they can do anything. Or 3-4 night scythes, or monoliths etc. if the other army is coming to you this is less of a problem, but if you have to go to them then the combo easily starts hitting north of 1k


Yea I feel pylons are going to be in most comp necron list. Wether it's the big gun, which is awesome and will wreck a flyer a turn at minimum (puts out 3d6 tesla shots too) and buffs the rest of the army while also hard countering knight lists. Alternatively you could have a sentry pylon matrix for cheaper and blow them out of the sky very fast.

I agree that Pylons are going to be ubiquitous. I'm thinking 2 Pylons, 20 Flayed Ones, Imotekh, and a bunch of Scarabs is going to be the list I plan to build.

On the topic of sentry pylon loadout, heat cannons or gauss exterminators? I feel even against that BA flyer spam the heat cannon will be better, as it is only on a -1 vs the GE, but it's D6 shots vs 2. Both are at -4 ap, the gauss is wounding on 3's the heat on 4's but the cannon has the melta rule, so unless his flyers are sitting backfield all game the heat rays should come out on top in a firefight vs flyers compared to the GE. But in a competition they also perform much better against all other targets.

I think for the best lists you just want to spam the good stuff and the most efficient stuff.

Something along the lines of this . . .

Battalion - 3 CPs

HQ
Overlord w SoL - 119
Cryptek - 104

Troops
5x Tesla Immortals - 85
5x Tesla Immortals - 85
20x Warriors - 240

Elite
1 x Triarch Stalker w/HGC - 181

FA
1x Tomb Sentinel w/Gloom Prism - 185
1x Tomb Sentinel w/Gloom Prism - 185
6x Scarabs - 78

Heavy
1x Tesseract Ark w/Tesla - 246
1x Tesseract Ark w/Tesla - 246
1X Tesseract Ark w/Tesla - 246


2000 points exactly.

Marshal_Gus wrote:
I agree that Pylons are going to be ubiquitous. I'm thinking 2 Pylons, 20 Flayed Ones, Imotekh, and a bunch of Scarabs is going to be the list I plan to build.

Flayed ones seem sooooo overpriced for what they can do. They DS, soak shooting a turn, then charge and do their damage. Which is formidiable at full strength.

But compare them to scarabs.

For the same price you get 33 scarab bases, who also have 4 attacks, so scarabs put out more attacks. They have double the movement, so are more flexible with what they can do during the game. Have 99 wounds vs 20. Can threaten big stuff better than flayed ones. Also 33 scarabs is 4 units meaning they can tie up more stuff, grab more objectives etc.

FO have a higher S & T, and shred on their weapon and a better save. But I don't think a better save and higher toughness counteracts having 5x less wounds.

Imohtekh buffs the FO (he has to be aggressive and can't deepstrike so it's kinda hard for him to give the buff to them), but a spyder buffs scarabs exponentially more, for cheaper than Imotekh, and can repair vehicles, and can deny the witch.

I really love my flayed ones, but I don't think I can justify them when you compare them to scarabs in this edition. They're just waaaaay too expensive for what they bring.



I agree with this for the most part, however I don't think we need to stick to a battalion to be competitive. IMO I feel heat cannon sentry pylons are better than the sentinels. They have 1 less wound but for the most part do more damage than the sentinels, considering the sentinel will always be moving and hitting with a -1. Yes they're better in melee but if you get them there they ain't shooting again until the combat is over, while 36" melta means the pylons have a larger threat radius.

The gauss pylon's tesla arc is a pistol, so it can't shoot that and the gauss annihilator in the same turn, and horde spam lists will probably just stay 18+ inches away after it lands to make it near useless so you probably will never shoot the tesla arc.

I'm not 100% sold on sentry pylons. They don't have their big brother's macro typing so they get the -1 to hit the turn they come in from reserves. They also lack the 'immobile' special rule which means if you do whiff on making their points back in their alpha strike turn then they can be really easily shut down by an assault or high damage weapons. I am however tickled by the idea that sentry pylons are technically capable of making an advance move up to 9". Does it slowly hover like a monolith? No, the true headcannon is that there are dozens of tiny robot feet hidden under the platform.

 Actinium wrote:
The gauss pylon's tesla arc is a pistol, so it can't shoot that and the gauss annihilator in the same turn, and horde spam lists will probably just stay 18+ inches away after it lands to make it near useless so you probably will never shoot the tesla arc.

I'm not 100% sold on sentry pylons. They don't have their big brother's macro typing so they get the -1 to hit the turn they come in from reserves. They also lack the 'immobile' special rule which means if you do whiff on making their points back in their alpha strike turn then they can be really easily shut down by an assault or high damage weapons. I am however tickled by the idea that sentry pylons are technically capable of making an advance move up to 9". Does it slowly hover like a monolith? No, the true headcannon is that there are dozens of tiny robot feet hidden under the platform.

Yep I forgot about pistol rule. It's obviously for cc then as that is a nasty counter assault. I've found just deploying the pylons t1 is good. Still can threaten a lot of the board from our deployment zone

 Klowny wrote:

Try proxying your midfield DDA as tesseract arks. Have an invuln, big tesla cannons, fleshbane flamer for overwatch and a big cannon like the DDA. I feel these are better suited for scooting about as they don't lose the big profile after moving, it's just heavy so at -1. Their secondary profile is assault too so it has a lot more flexibility. Finally both assault and heavy profiles are D6 instead of D3, ensuring more damage done overall.

I am playing around with the TA in my next large game. I don't feel that it is quite the direct replacement for the mass flayer shots of the DDAs as I've been facing a lot of invulnerable saves lately (Tau shield generators, Harlequins, etc.) and when trying to bust through them, having guns with better AP is not nearly as useful as making them roll a ton of saves. I still like the TA as I think it's a better tank hunter and can do great as a mobile backfield guardian, but I think the DDAs will function better in the midfield role when used en masse, especially when you look at the points you save.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

 Klowny wrote:

Try proxying your midfield DDA as tesseract arks. Have an invuln, big tesla cannons, fleshbane flamer for overwatch and a big cannon like the DDA. I feel these are better suited for scooting about as they don't lose the big profile after moving, it's just heavy so at -1. Their secondary profile is assault too so it has a lot more flexibility. Finally both assault and heavy profiles are D6 instead of D3, ensuring more damage done overall.

I am playing around with the TA in my next large game. I don't feel that it is quite the direct replacement for the mass flayer shots of the DDAs as I've been facing a lot of invulnerable saves lately (Tau shield generators, Harlequins, etc.) and when trying to bust through them, having guns with better AP is not nearly as useful as making them roll a ton of saves. I still like the TA as I think it's a better tank hunter and can do great as a mobile backfield guardian, but I think the DDAs will function better in the midfield role when used en masse, especially when you look at the points you save.

Wouldn't 20/40 warriors backed by a GA be a better option then? I suppose the durability coupled with the flayer and big gun that is better than a straight 100 gauss shots? If your looking for massed shots on a durable chassis have you tried the TV? I know it's expensive but it has a metric ton of wounds, puts out 20 tesla shots a turn as well as mortal wounds. It's comparable in points, firepower and wounds as DDA

Edit: nope just realised it's nowhere near comparable kek

What percent of our lists should we be devoting to certain jobs, now that we have a better idea of what the meta is like?

??% horde control
??% anti vehicle (including flyers)
??% objective capture/control
etc.

And what units accomplish what jobs best?


Also, was the Skyshield Landing Pad worth considering for a weapons platform?
Stick a bunch of DDAs or Sentry Pylons on top of that thing and they'll have a clear shot to most of the table with extra added protection.
Or would a Void Shield Generator be better? (4++ but no elevated position for better line of sight)

 skoffs wrote:
What percent of our lists should we be devoting to certain jobs, now that we have a better idea of what the meta is like?

??% horde control
??% anti vehicle (including flyers)
??% objective capture/control
etc.

And what units accomplish what jobs best?


Also, was the Skyshield Landing Pad worth considering for a weapons platform?
Stick a bunch of DDAs or Sentry Pylons on top of that thing and they'll have a clear shot to most of the table with extra added protection.
Or would a Void Shield Generator be better? (4++ but no elevated position for better line of sight)

Perhaps amount of firepower would be a better measure, eg:

Horde control: equivalent of 40 BS3+ S5 tesla shots

anti vehicle: equivalent of 6 HGC shots

objecive control: at least 2 units with 4+ models that have 8" or more in move

The DDA would then be able to contribute in multiple slots, even HDs could be in reserve for objective duty.

 skoffs wrote:
What percent of our lists should we be devoting to certain jobs, now that we have a better idea of what the meta is like?

??% horde control
??% anti vehicle (including flyers)
??% objective capture/control
etc.

And what units accomplish what jobs best?


Also, was the Skyshield Landing Pad worth considering for a weapons platform?
Stick a bunch of DDAs or Sentry Pylons on top of that thing and they'll have a clear shot to most of the table with extra added protection.
Or would a Void Shield Generator be better? (4++ but no elevated position for better line of sight)

Yeah it's a bit hard to quantify as most things will fill multiple roles. There's not many dedicated anything units that I can think of straight away.

Sky shield and void shield take up a whole detachment slot, and arks are very durable as is. If a detachment is free a sky shield would be good for DDA to give LOS.
The unfurled regen the pad gives is actually really good, keep it up initially for the invuln, then drop it down to regen back up. It's cheap too! In fact, it's better in every way than a VSG, the invuln is better on the generator when it's above half wounds, but it doesn't have a regen option and is more expensive.

[Nevermind]

 Klowny wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
What percent of our lists should we be devoting to certain jobs, now that we have a better idea of what the meta is like?

??% horde control
??% anti vehicle (including flyers)
??% objective capture/control
etc.

And what units accomplish what jobs best?


Also, was the Skyshield Landing Pad worth considering for a weapons platform?
Stick a bunch of DDAs or Sentry Pylons on top of that thing and they'll have a clear shot to most of the table with extra added protection.
Or would a Void Shield Generator be better? (4++ but no elevated position for better line of sight)

Yeah it's a bit hard to quantify as most things will fill multiple roles. There's not many dedicated anything units that I can think of straight away.

Sky shield and void shield take up a whole detachment slot, and arks are very durable as is. If a detachment is free a sky shield would be good for DDA to give LOS.
The unfurled regen the pad gives is actually really good, keep it up initially for the invuln, then drop it down to regen back up. It's cheap too! In fact, it's better in every way than a VSG, the invuln is better on the generator when it's above half wounds, but it doesn't have a regen option and is more expensive.

Well wound healing is for flyer battlefield roles only, and our fliers cant stay still for a turn, so that part of the plan probably wouldn't work. But the invul is nice, though QS already helps in that department


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What about a bunker for our heavy destroyers?

torblind wrote:
What about a bunker for our heavy destroyers?

I'd thought about that, too, but they typically want to be pretty mobile to get line of sight on their targets (going after/sitting on objectives).

Also, yeah, Sky Shield regens things that are flyers, not just things with <flying>. Still a decent way to give DDAs an invuln as well as a better vantage point on the table.

Any other fortifications worth considering?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I can't remember what we concluded:
Was it more effective to take a HGC Stalker + DDA or just pay 22 extra points to take 2x DDAs?
(I have a feeling it was the latter, but can't be certain)

I don't think you can go wrong with either one. Stalker would be more helpful for hordes because you can buff shooting against them, but when you're facing heavier targets you're simply better off with the second Ark.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Klowny wrote:

Marshal_Gus wrote:
I agree that Pylons are going to be ubiquitous. I'm thinking 2 Pylons, 20 Flayed Ones, Imotekh, and a bunch of Scarabs is going to be the list I plan to build.

Flayed ones seem sooooo overpriced for what they can do. They DS, soak shooting a turn, then charge and do their damage. Which is formidiable at full strength.

But compare them to scarabs.

For the same price you get 33 scarab bases, who also have 4 attacks, so scarabs put out more attacks. They have double the movement, so are more flexible with what they can do during the game. Have 99 wounds vs 20. Can threaten big stuff better than flayed ones. Also 33 scarabs is 4 units meaning they can tie up more stuff, grab more objectives etc.

FO have a higher S & T, and shred on their weapon and a better save. But I don't think a better save and higher toughness counteracts having 5x less wounds.

Imohtekh buffs the FO (he has to be aggressive and can't deepstrike so it's kinda hard for him to give the buff to them), but a spyder buffs scarabs exponentially more, for cheaper than Imotekh, and can repair vehicles, and can deny the witch.

I really love my flayed ones, but I don't think I can justify them when you compare them to scarabs in this edition. They're just waaaaay too expensive for what they bring.

Spoiler:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
I think for the best lists you just want to spam the good stuff and the most efficient stuff.

Something along the lines of this . . .

Battalion - 3 CPs

HQ
Overlord w SoL - 119
Cryptek - 104

Troops
5x Tesla Immortals - 85
5x Tesla Immortals - 85
20x Warriors - 240

Elite
1 x Triarch Stalker w/HGC - 181

FA
1x Tomb Sentinel w/Gloom Prism - 185
1x Tomb Sentinel w/Gloom Prism - 185
6x Scarabs - 78

Heavy
1x Tesseract Ark w/Tesla - 246
1x Tesseract Ark w/Tesla - 246
1X Tesseract Ark w/Tesla - 246


2000 points exactly.

I agree with this for the most part, however I don't think we need to stick to a battalion to be competitive. IMO I feel heat cannon sentry pylons are better than the sentinels. They have 1 less wound but for the most part do more damage than the sentinels, considering the sentinel will always be moving and hitting with a -1. Yes they're better in melee but if you get them there they ain't shooting again until the combat is over, while 36" melta means the pylons have a larger threat radius.

Yeah, Flayed Ones are one of the few units I think are super bizarrely priced. They're maybe worth 15 total.

Good news everyone, CCBs are now characters as per the new FAQ

How much better are they now?

Well, you can't focus them down now, so they got a bit more survivable.

So what is the ideal thing to accompany the CCB, now?
Ideally something fast to keep up with them.
They can still only give out its MWBD ("Command Wave") to <DYNASTY> INFANTRY units, so Tomb Blades and Praetorians aren't benefiting from it. The Canopteks, too.
Destroyers, maybe?


Actually, it kinda looks like the CCB and the Destroyer Lord are pretty close.

CCB: M12" WS2+ BS2+ S5 T6 W8 A3 Ld10 Sv 3+/0++ Points 162 (WS, Tesla), Command Wave, QS
D.L. : M10" WS3+ BS3+ S5 T6 W6 A4 Ld10 Sv 3+/4++ Points 135 (WS), Reroll 1s to hit

What do you think, worth the 27 point difference now?

FAQ and Errata are out.

- RP reanimated models have to be placed in coherence with models that did not reanimate this turn. I guess that limits its effectiveness a bit.
- RP reanimated models return with full wounds!
- CCB have the Character keyword.
- Imotekh has Ld 10.
- Quantum Shielding cannot save Mortal Wounds since they are single damage wounds (duh!)
- C'Tan's Time's Arrow looks at the highest Wounds characteristic in the target unit.

The minor differences in their stat line probably don't matter. I think there might be something to be said for bringing a gauss cannon on the CCB, even if it is 34 more points than a d.lord and doesn't re-roll 1s that's still almost half the cost of a whole destroyer for the same gun.
I think a CCB is better for 1 unit of destroyers but the destroyer lord is probably better for 2 or more, because Command Wave still only effects 1 unit a turn while United in Hatred is an aura.

 Actinium wrote:
The minor differences in their stat line probably don't matter. I think there might be something to be said for bringing a gauss cannon on the CCB, even if it is 34 more points than a d.lord and doesn't re-roll 1s that's still almost half the cost of a whole destroyer for the same gun

The difference there being that Destroyers don't get the -1 to hit for firing their Heavy weapons, where as the CCB does, reducing its effectiveness (same reason why the Assault Tesla Cannon tends to be the better choice on Annihilation Barges).

Well, there is the added flexibility in that it can move 12" to buff any unit that needs buffing.

Furthermore it brings a nice underslung gun that hits on 2+, and a very nice CC weapon that hits on 2+, and he can move to add some bang where needed. I'd say its a relevant choice.

And it offers variety, which eventually makes possible more fun! (don't forget the fun!)

Does this FAQ change mean that the Tesseract Vault can not shoot the same power three times?

(I was planning on using it to decimate hordes with 3x Seismic Assault)

T.

The barge is bs2+ so moving and shooting the gauss cannon is a 3+ same as destroyers. You could take a 2+ tesla but if its job is to follow destroyers around i figure having the same ideal shooting targets is a boon.

I actually like both the CCB and Destroyer lord now. Probably going to run both in my lists. CCB with immortals and D.L with destroyers seems like a strong core to a list.

I'm interested to see if the change to RP makes 20man blobs of warriors worse. Since it'll be harder to reanimate now if you have to remain in coherency with existing models.

 Punisher wrote:
I'm interested to see if the change to RP makes 20man blobs of warriors worse. Since it'll be harder to reanimate now if you have to remain in coherency with existing models.

That didin't change though?

So I guess our Prets, Stalker and The Traveler stay Dynestyless. Sigh, poor Traveler stuck at a sad 5" move and no spider rep love for the Stalker. So now a year+ wait for our codex.