Old INDEX Necron 8th Tactica - link to new codex tactics thread in OP

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**sieGermans**

The second Stratagem is also only for one unit! Wow, that’s really not great. 1/6 of all RP rolls for a unit are expected to be 1s, and only 1/3 of those rerolls are expected to succeed. As a 1/9 ratio, even on expensive units like Destroyers, at 50pts per model, that’s 5.5pts * (maximum of 5) = 27.5 pts for 2cps, or 13.75 / cp.

Depending on your list, if you consider troops a tax (and some folks don’t!), you’ve usually paid 85 or 120 pts per CP... to only make back 13.75 is kinda awful.

I really expected that stratagem to be army wide.

**torblind**

So no salvation for the C'Tans, and only vanilla characters get the Veil.

A bucket of fun thrown out the window

**epaemil**

Yeah why can't the C'Tan use the trait atleast? Is it such a disaster letting them be somewhat viable

**torblind**

With more interesting uses of CPs maybe we'll see more 5man immortals and battalions, or bigger troop blobs transported upfield with GI and the Veil for bigger impact

**skoffs**

Welp, this was utter disappointing.
We get the Veil back but it's pretty much only useful for a single unit of suicide Gauss Immortals.
You can combo with Deceiver if you have the points, but it's just going to make it "D3+1.5 units move up" basically.

You might be able to give it to a D.Lord so he can reposition himself and a unit of Destroyers into cover 23" away from an enemy unit they can get line of sight on, but that's going to cost a fortune.

Nope, I don't see the stuff from C.A doing anything to get Necrons out of the bottom tier.
My guys are going back into hibernation. Wake us up when you hear something about the codex.

**Halfpast_Yellow**

Eh, i like the Veil. It makes Lychguard viable. Res on Canopteks is also nice.

I'm looking forward to trying out something like the following for 2k:

Zandrekh
OL with Veil

3x10 Gauss Immortals
Couple min Scarab units
6 Wraiths
10 Lychguard
2 Stalkers
1 Doomsday.

**skoffs**

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
the Veil. It makes Lychguard viable.

Care to explain how?
Dropping them 9" away is what Flayed Ones already have and people don't exactly consider that viable, despite their superior offensive capabilities.

Actually, trying to use the http://dice-hammer.com site to figure something out, I'm not sure what goes where for melee
It looks like there are three places to enter the number of attacks.

**Halfpast_Yellow**

Because they get MWBD for WS2+ and 8" Charge, couple with rerolls and that's good enough for me.

I meant to write Tesla Btw, not Gauss. Clear out screens with 2x Immortal MWBD Tesla, then throw the Lychguard down the throat of whats left, all the better if they are +1A from TM.

The benefit of the Veil is not only is it the most reliable delivery method that combos with MWBD, it's also free. You don't have to muck around with sinking points into the Deciever, or monoliths or Obyron or whatever. You can take your 2xOL, Tesla, Lychguard and have room for everything else - Canoptek, Quantums, whatever.

**torblind**

skoffs wrote:
Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
the Veil. It makes Lychguard viable.

Care to explain how?
Dropping them 9" away is what Flayed Ones already have and people don't exactly consider that viable, despite their superior offensive capabilities.

Actually, trying to use the http://dicehammer.com site to figure something out, I'm not sure what goes where for melee
It looks like there are three places to enter the number of attacks.

I need to write a manual.

What you struggle with is a necessary evil:

* Any unit has an Attack characteristic, that's the first box

* You can split those attacks between different weapons, that's the second box. For example some weapons give bonus attack that has to be used on that weapon, eg chain swords, then you have to be able to split attacks on different weapons.

* The third box: some weapons have the property: "Roll 3 or roll D3 attacks when you roll an attack with this weapon", essentially making it "Melee 3" or "Melee D3", so the form has to support that too to be complete.

There.

In your case just enter the Attack charactreistic of the unit. Let the web page auto-set that number of attacks on the one and only Melee weapon, and keep it at 1 hits, becasue thats what most melele weapons are.

*

**Tokhuah**

Just checking in to see if 8th is worth playing yet... Nope!

**skoffs**

torblind wrote:
It makes In your case just enter the Attack charactreistic of the unit. Let the web page auto-set that number of attacks on the one and only Melee weapon, and keep it at 1 hits, becasue thats what most melele weapons are.

So in the case of Warscythe Lychguard what would it be?
(in order, left to right, top to bottom):

Count= 10
WS= 3
A= 2
S= 7
AP= -4
Dmg= 2
Type= melee
["number of shots"]= 1
["unit attacks"]= 1

Yes?

[edit] oh, wait, I can't alter the A value. I'm guessing I need to change the "unit attacks" value, then?

**torblind**

Yep, 'Attack Characteristic of Unit' would be a better tooltip text.

That's the value to set anyway, most units only ever have one melee weapon so all unit's attacks go to that weapon. If the unit you model has only one weapon, then the attacks of that weapon gets set to unit's A automatically and don't let you change it

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The unit's attacks Characteristic is the available attacks you get to distribute on your melee weapons (that's the most flexible way to model it)

**skoffs**

Hmm, i think I'm still doing something wrong.

Spoiler:

Basically trying to do an equal points comparison (roughly) between Lychguard (Warscythe x10 + Cryptek for Veil = 404 points) and Flayed Ones (x19 = 399 points), seeing as how both are going to have the same delivery method now (9.01" deep strike, which I still think is not a wise charge to attempt, but for theoretical arguments sake).

The image posted is just for the Lychguard, but something seems off.

**Requizen**

I think 20 Warriors + a Cryptek with Veil is probably ok too. Zap them up the table, line up as a wall, force them to kill the wall to proceed. Solid speedbump, though still not "great".

Tokhuah wrote:
Just checking in to see if 8th is worth playing yet... Nope!

8th is the best edition of 40k in a long time. There are some abusive builds but overall it is quite solid and the gameplay itself is, imo, the best it's been in a while.

Necrons are problematic.

**torblind**

skoffs wrote:
Hmm, i think I'm still doing something wrong.

Spoiler:

Basically trying to do an equal points comparison (roughly) between Lychguard (Warscythe x10 + Cryptek for Veil = 404 points) and Flayed Ones (x19 = 399 points), seeing as how both are going to have the same delivery method now (9.01" deep strike, which I still think is not a wise charge to attempt, but for theoretical arguments sake).

The image posted is just for the Lychguard, but something seems off.

It seems right.

That's what it says. For lower Toughness targets it reports 1dmg per wound (these are usually 1wound models), for higher Toughness models you get the full 2dmg per wound, hence the double for T5-T6 (that still wound on 3+)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
If the T4 split in the table is unclear, it is explained in the help text on the page, and you can click that little button in the middle to toggle the behaviour.

**skoffs**

Okay, so for the Battle of Bad ideas (trying to charge from 9" away), when comparing roughly equal points of 10x Warscythe Lychguard + Cryptek and 19x Flayed Ones,
Looks like the Flayed Ones win out against MEQs, causing 12.6 wounds to the Lychguard squad's 9.3.
Against Guard it's no contest, with Flayed Ones putting out double the hurt.
Lychguard are better against things T5+, so I guess it'll be meta dependant.

Personally, I think it would be better to compare Warriors, Immortals, and Destroyers for who would be best to take the Veil. Problem there is you can't really do an accurate comparison because there's no way to get equal points of Immortals and Destroyers up.

**Halfpast_Yellow**

I don't see the point of factoring in the Cryptek.

The whole reasoning of Lychguard + Overlord is you can MWBD them for an 8 inch charge, which means your success expectation jumps from ~50% (9") to ~70% (8").

As everyone knows by now, you can't MWBD Flayed Ones the turn they come in, so it's a non-comparison.

You could substitute straight Flayed Ones for Lychguard and veil the Flayed Ones, but then you're getting 15 FO to 10 LG, not 19 to 10.

I much prefer LG here because 10 T53+ sticks around more than 15 T4 4+. FO do more against GeQ but that's that's not useful to the battleplan because Tesla Immortals already take GeQ apart, Lychguard are better for hurting what those Tesla Immortals struggle with.

If you wanted to all in on FO something like Imotekh, VoD OL, Deceiver, 10 Tesla Immos, 10 Gauss Immos, 20 Warriors, 20 FO. Over 1500 points through, but 80 str 4 attacks hitting 2s rerolling 1s, and rerolling all wounds, with possible -2 to morale is pretty funny. Loads more points of failure though and over 1500 points for that setup.

**skoffs**

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
The whole reasoning of Lychguard + Overlord is you can MWBD them for an 8 inch charge, which means your success expectation jumps from ~50% (9") to ~70% (8").

You might want to check your math there.

**Halfpast_Yellow**

skoffs wrote:
Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
The whole reasoning of Lychguard + Overlord is you can MWBD them for an 8 inch charge, which means your success expectation jumps from ~50% (9" to ~70% (8".

You might want to check your math there.

I'm assuming you burn the reroll if required.

Hitting first go 9" -> 8" is 28% -> 42%
With reroll it's 9" -> 8" is 52% -> 68%

You make your Lychguard veil charge 2/3 games.
1/3 games they have a double reroll available which increases overall success by about 2% (to pretty much 7/10 games)
1/5 games they have +1A after making the charge.

**skoffs**

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
skoffs wrote:
Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
The whole reasoning of Lychguard + Overlord is you can MWBD them for an 8 inch charge, which means your success expectation jumps from ~50% (9") to ~70% (8").

You might want to check your math there.

I'm assuming you burn the reroll if required.

That would improve things, yes, but then we're back to the "and what else are you going to do?" issue.
You've got a unit and an HQ up in enemy territory turn one. What else is going to support them? HOW is that support getting there?
Plus and besides the fact that any opponent with basic common sense is going to bubble wrap their important stuff against CC alpha strikes (it was done before C.A, it's not changing any time soon).

TL;DR- unless you're going all in with Deceiver Bomb, it makes more sense to use the Veil with shooters.

**torblind**

That combined VoD and GI bomb sounded kind of hilarious though, the critical dice rolls (LG charge and GI roll) happen at different phases, so you can burn CP on both.

**Halfpast_Yellow**

Spoiler:

As originally said, Tesla Immortals engage screens turn 1. The whole point of bubble wrapping is that it works. Every single army with a deepstrike melee element has to deal with screens. That's not really the issue for Necrons because Tesla Immortals can remove GeQ screens and either Destroyers or Tomb Blades can remove MeQ screens. Dealing the crippling blow afterwards is the traditional struggle. LG are the finisher, not the opener.
Edit:
The whole thing is now Lychguard are actually a viable element for a list. Before you had to use some sort of Zandrekh/Obyron move at best, or a tomb world/deciever sort of thing and it was all horrendously awkward and most of all expensive. Far better off to use Praetorians or Wraiths and hope for the best, but the lack of 2damage weaps on both actually hurt a hell of a lot.

Now, 2x OL(Veil), 3x10 Immortals and 1x10 Lychguard is 1000 and a very solid core by Necron index standards. Having 1000 left in a 2k game to fill out is massive, that's that full Destroyer wing, or enough for 2 Tstalkers, a Doom ark and a whole 9 strong Tombblade unit, etc

**Odrankt**

My current VoD + G.I combo looks like this ; I G.I - Gauss Immortals, 8 Gauss Tomb Blades w/ a mixture of 3+ and 5+ invul saves and 5 Canoptek Acanthrites. I then use a Cryptek to VoD himself and another unit of Gauss Immortals.

If done right (getting to move 3 via G.I) that's 2 Gauss Immos being deployed into cover for 2+ saves and with the Crypteks they get 5+ invul agaisnt Shooting, the unit of Acanthrites are also deployed into cover and take care of T6 or worse vehicles and the Tomb Blades will just be mobile Immortals killing enemy units or grabbing objectives.

Everything can also be buffed to a 4+ RP via Cryptek and Stratagems so might be useful if kept as a "core" of Anti-infantry and Light Vehicles.

**Klowny**

I think wraiths being GI up are a good aide to either, as both flayed ones and lychguard are slow.

They can survive a turn in the open, then can catch the things the scythegurd/fo want to eat.

Im trying a Deciever wraith star w/ MWBD Tesla immortals being veiled into cover midfield in a 750pt doubles tournament. Sounds fun

**torblind**

Awesome!

Wraiths wouldn't benefit from cover save, as you all probably know, as they are Sv 4+ in their profile

**Odrankt**

torblind wrote:
Awesome!

Wraiths wouldn't benefit from cover save, as you all probably know, as they are Sv 4+ in their profile

The only issue I see with Wraiths being G.I is that they cannot charge that turn and if focused fired then you will lose several Wraiths even with 3+ invul. I thought about using them as well but then looked at Acanthrites and noticed that if you G.I them into cover and 50% obscured they have a 2+ save and -1 to hit should tank them a little longer. Their gun is also Melta so you can freely move them after G.I to get within half range of an enemy unit to make use of Rolling 2 damage Die and discarding the lowest. Acanthrites should also hold units in CC just like Wraiths do but maybe a bit worse then Wraiths do.

**Cmdr_Sune**

9 Acanthrites veiled into cover (although that might be difficult) is a scary thought. Considering the strategem that allows RP for canoptec units. They are also ok in CC and can then just fall back and blast the enemy.

Does the Acanthrites get +1 attack because of their swords? I guess it's not faq:ed since they are FW.

**Klowny**

Counterpoint, wraiths now get RP

and a 3++ everywhere is better than a no invuln save. You'd need to run a big squad of acanthrites to be survivable, plus they aren't infantry so each model will have to be wholly within and 50% obscured. Wraiths can sit on a critical objective close to scythe T1, soak a huge amount of punishment, RP, charge T2 funza

**Lothmar**

I think the Viel + deceiver combo will be very cheesy in a relic objective game especially if we get initiative.

Before turn 1, move character who carries the viel with the deciever and screening unit forward (Cryptek + 20 man warrior for max soak and if you get a 3 you can take a ghost ark along for 2x RP's) assuming you dont poo the bed with double 1's. *chuckle*

Your turn 1, assuming the enemy didn't get first initiative and then wiped your artifact grabbers (or they did go first but failed to finish you). Either dont move your forward forces or pull them back to do your RP's accordingly if the enemy got you wrapped into melee. Then at end of move just veil TP your character with the picked up objective and his squad to edge of table where remaining units screen and Shake hands cause you'll be off the board next turn.

**sieGermans**

Seize rolls happen before Deceiver redeploy, FYI. Just like Alpha/Raven infiltrations.