Old INDEX Necron 8th Tactica - link to new codex tactics thread in OP

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**skoffs**

There is no "best HQ".
There's only what works best with what you've got.

You have to take an HQ for your Warlord, so take one that will compliment your army best.
If you've only got a unit or two of Immortals, Overlord is your best bet.
If you're planning on taking a bunch of Warriors, obviously you would be best served with a Cryptek.
Expensive guys? Cryptek.
Need more accurate shooting/charging/hitting? Overlord.
Etc.

**Maelstrom808**

You really aren't going to save as much as you think. Take a basic battalion for example. You start with 2 Overlords and 3 10 man immortal squads. You still need 2 hqs regardless of what type, so if you switch both overlords to crypteks, you only save enough for one extra immortal (which you could add by going MSU with the immortals) In doing so, you have a large net loss in overall firepower, and likely a wash to a minor increase in defensive capability.

If you are initially running 3 overlords, and change to 2 crypteks, you now can afford around 7 and a half extra immortals which equates to still a fair loss in firepower, but a slightly more durable force mostly through mass of bodies.

In the end, I'll take firepower over defensive increases almost every time with immortals. Especially when the hit in firepower is much larger than the gain in durability.

**Doctoralex**

Keep in mind that Immortals also barely benefit from the 5++ from the Cryptek as long as you use cover.

Even against plasma's AP -3, as long as you are in cover you will get a 5+ save.

**Necronplayer**

Maelstrom808 wrote:
You really aren't going to save as much as you think. Take a basic battalion for example. You start with 2 Overlords and 3 10 man immortal squads. You still need 2 hqs regardless of what type, so if you switch both overlords to crypteks, you only save enough for one extra immortal (which you could add by going MSU with the immortals) In doing so, you have a large net loss in overall firepower, and likely a wash to a minor increase in defensive capability.

If you are initially running 3 overlords, and change to 2 crypteks, you now can afford around 7 and a half extra immortals which equates to still a fair loss in firepower, but a slightly more durable force mostly through mass of bodies.

In the end, I'll take firepower over defensive increases almost every time with immortals. Especially when the hit in firepower is much larger than the gain in durability.

In this example, that makes sense. But I think you're missing the main point I'm making.

Offensively speaking, an OL and unit of immortals won't be as effective as the equivalent in just immortals. What that means to me is that we can disassociate the synergy of the OL and Immortals, leaving us open to pick any HQ we want.

Basically, you would have better firepower and you don't have to assign an HQ to follow the immortals everywhere (Go ram a CCB into the enemy backline!)

I suggested a Cryptek, if you still want an HQ on them, simply because of the aura it gives and it's scaleability.

Ex. If you have multiple units of troops, all units can get the RP 4+ and the 5++ within range of the Cryptek. You can opt for an OL HQ and MWBD to give to 1 of those units, but I think you'd be underestimating the defensive value when you're buffing multiple units.

**torblind**

Isn't the only meaningful comparison to make with that of the point difference to a cheaper HQ, since you're always going to have an HQ.

If you can cram in 1-2 extra immortals for a cheaper HQ, and that extra firepower does not that match the MWBD bonus - doesn't that say that the synergy has something going for it?

**sieGermans**

torblind wrote:
Isn't the only meaningful comparison to make with that of the point difference to a cheaper HQ, since you're always going to have an HQ.

If you can cram in 1-2 extra immortals for a cheaper HQ, and that extra firepower does not that match the MWBD bonus - doesn't that say that the synergy has something going for it?

^ this.

Point for point, you are better off simply adding an additional immortal to the squad until size 14, at which point the math flips and adding an OL with MWBD becomes better... however, the max size is 10 so that never happens.

HOWEVER, if you are building a bound army and intend to take a Battalion/etc., and as part of that Battalion you are planning to take an OL (or equivalent MWBD granting HQ), then at that point you can consider the offensive output of a Tesla Immortal squad as if it were buffed; and each additional immortal with the equivalent buffed status.

So, you’re right that you can de-shackle Tesla Immortals from MWBD to a point.

However, with the current state of the Index, there are few alternatives to an OL in your armies anyway, so it becomes more moot.

If they had wanted to add more list design tension (which makes for more fun at list building stage of the game), they should have made Lords capable of granting this buff, or something, so that the math flipped at size >10. But, /shrug.

**Necronplayer**

sieGermans wrote:
torblind wrote:
Isn't the only meaningful comparison to make with that of the point difference to a cheaper HQ, since you're always going to have an HQ.

If you can cram in 1-2 extra immortals for a cheaper HQ, and that extra firepower does not that match the MWBD bonus - doesn't that say that the synergy has something going for it?

^ this.

I definitely agree. Though I've seen lists built around the idea that you should only have a unit of tesla immortals if you can give them MWBD. They are an excellent unit within our current index as-is and don't require an HQ with them.

sieGermans wrote:

However, with the current state of the Index, there are few alternatives to an OL in your armies anyway, so it becomes more moot.
If they had wanted to add more list design tension (which makes for more fun at list building stage of the game), they should have made Lords capable of granting this buff, or something, so that the math flipped at size >10. But, /shrug

Yeah, I think it's backwards when the motivation for an HQ in this scenario is just for battleforged requirements. Whereas other faction lists have the option to want more HQ than they have slots for(thinking of Primaris Psyker here)

**torblind**

Cheaper HQ options and RP that doesn't push towards max sizes would be a welcome change. Trazyn could make a reappearance and we could perhaps field a brigade to afford those fancy stratagems we are getting.

**Necronplayer**

torblind wrote:
Cheaper HQ options and RP that doesn't push towards max sizes would be a welcome change. Trazyn could make a reappearance and we could perhaps field a brigade to afford those fancy stratagems we are getting.

Yeah, it's hard to balance a list aiming at ITC rules and our RP max unit size. Basically gives them free points from the Reaper, if we're trying to maximize the potential benefit of RP.

Also, our cheap screen of scarabs doesn't play well with the current format. 3T 3W models is easy Gang Busters. I would like to see warriors cheaper for a screen and allow the ghost ark to carry a full 20 man unit.

**sieGermans**

I’ve made multiple multiple lists with max and min scarabs as screens: they mess with deep striking for Turn 1 shenanigans, and then are idly melted by the opponent.

And while it may be that they are drawing a bit of fire, we simply don’t have credible alternative multi-wound models to be shot at... so they are drawing fire that would have been irrelevant anyway.

**Fenris-77**

Lots of Cron lists run vehicles, and if the opponent wants to shoot multi-wound shots at the Scarabs and not the vehicles, that's probably a win for the Necrons.

**Doctoralex**

I disagree with Scarabs being a bad screening unit.

1: They don't need leadership bonuses unlike most other screening unit (unless you run squads of 9). Pretty much every other cheap chaff will need a character or something to stop them from running away.

2: They are fast for chaff. A tiny unit of 3 scarabs can zip around and grab objectives relatively easy. Or maybe even go unnoticed towards your enemy to score Behind Enemy Lines.
Their fast movement also allows them to keep up and screen C'tan Shards.

3: They have a surprising amount of attacks with WS 3+. Of course only S3 with AP-, but so is pretty much all chaff melee.

4: They have the added bonus of always wounding on at least a 5+. Let them lock down a dreadnought for a turn or two and nibble it down some wounds.

5: I found in my previous games that they are harder to surround with melee blobs than a normal chaff unit would. Since they have a lower model number and a larger base, a large unit of say, Boyz, will have a hard time to get them all into melee range.

6: And while I haven't used it yet, a large group of Scarabs could very well be reanimated thanks to the Reanimate Canoptek strategem. Since the strategem is in effect till the end of your turn, you can even combine it with a nearby Overlord's Resurrection Orb. Would that be wasted on a unit of Scarabs? Not if this gives them an extra turn to hold the enemy at bay!

**CthuluIsSpy**

They are also cheap per wound. Its like 4 points a wound. They are our gretchin, except faster, tougher, better armored and they can actually do stuff in close combat.
In order for the res orb to be worth using on scarabs it has to save at least 3 bases of them. I don't know if its cost effective. I'd rather use it to save destroyers or guard.

**Necronplayer**

Scarabs are certainly good for small DS screen, but if you want to mass them for a movement or charge screen, then you handily give up 4 secondary points.

If you're not playing ITC format, then you wouldn't have to worry about this.

**sieGermans**

Fenris-77 wrote:
Lots of Cron lists run vehicles, and if the opponent wants to shoot multi-wound shots at the Scarabs and not the vehicles, that's probably a win for the Necrons.

That’s the idea, but this doesn’t work in practice. AV weapons are High STR with D6; and if a goofy opponent shoots those at scarabs, you’re laughing.

However in practice, multiwound strength 5-6, which is usually wasted against us (as it’s insufficient strength for reliable AV and our Tier 1 T4-T5 isn’t multi-wound) suddenly has a prime target.

**torblind**

sieGermans wrote:
Fenris-77 wrote:
Lots of Cron lists run vehicles, and if the opponent wants to shoot multi-wound shots at the Scarabs and not the vehicles, that's probably a win for the Necrons.

That’s the idea, but this doesn’t work in practice. AV weapons are High STR with D6; and if a goofy opponent shoots those at scarabs, you’re laughing.

However in practice, multiwound strength 5-6, which is usually wasted against us (as it’s insufficient strength for reliable AV and our Tier 1 T4-T5 isn’t multi-wound) suddenly has a prime target.

Do people bring much of these weapons? It would be our gauss cannons, right?

**Venerable Ironclad**

Fenris-77 wrote:
Lots of Cron lists run vehicles, and if the opponent wants to shoot multi-wound shots at the Scarabs and not the vehicles, that's probably a win for the Necrons.

Except necron vehicles have quantum shielding so we benefit from oppontents waisting mulit-wound shots on our vehicles. I am constantly getting my scarabs blasted by lascannons while bolters shred my vehicles to bits.

**sieGermans**

Venerable Ironclad wrote:
Fenris-77 wrote:
Lots of Cron lists run vehicles, and if the opponent wants to shoot multi-wound shots at the Scarabs and not the vehicles, that's probably a win for the Necrons.

Except necron vehicles have quantum shielding so we benefit from oppontents waisting mulit-wound shots on our vehicles. I am constantly getting my scarabs blasted by lascannons while bolters shred my vehicles to bits.

I find that the combination of QS + Living Metal works out quite powerfully.

**Fenris-77**

I understand about Quantum shielding. I still think it's a win if the vehicles aren't eating LC shots. Not every list has the raw dakka to whittle down a pile of vehicles using S4-6 low Ap type stuff. At the high competitive level every list has that of course, but that's not the whole hobby. Also, if you have infantry and your opponent isn't throwing raw dakka at your warriors and Immortals but at the vehicles, then the RP will do you more good. Obviously this doesn't make Necrons 'good', but the basic idea that there are lots of ways for opponents to make 'mistakes' with their shooting priority and choices is present, which is good - that idea just needs to be realized in a more practical, useful, and balanced way.

In some ways, a lot of the elements to make Necrons work really well as a synergy type army are already present, just not functional enough to be any good. The combo of RP, Scarabs, Quantum vehicles and Canoptek repair is actually really cool, and if it worked properly would make the Necrons a fun, unique army. Now GW just has to make those mechanics work properly.

**Necronplayer**

What change would you guys want to see with RP? Point decrease? Optional wargear?

This snippet has me intrigued from the Necrons fandom wiki:

Given time, severed limbs reattach, armour plating reknits and shattered mechanical organs are rebuilt. The only way, then, to assure a Necron's destruction is to overwhelm its ability to self-repair, to inflict such massive damage that its ancient regenerative systems cannot keep pace. Even then, should irreparable damage occur, the Necron will often simply "phase out" -- an automated viridian teleportation beam returning it to the safety of the stasis-crypts, where it remains in storage until such time as repairs can be carried out.

It would be cool to have it implemented as described, continue making RP rolls for the unit even after it's wiped. Store them in reserves and have a reliable way to return them to the board (not having to rely on another unit being present)

Thoughts on balancing a mechanic like this?

**Oberron**

Necronplayer wrote:
What change would you guys want to see with RP? Point decrease? Optional wargear?

This snippet has me intrigued from the Necrons fandom wiki:

Given time, severed limbs reattach, armour plating reknits and shattered mechanical organs are rebuilt. The only way, then, to assure a Necron's destruction is to overwhelm its ability to self-repair, to inflict such massive damage that its ancient regenerative systems cannot keep pace. Even then, should irreparable damage occur, the Necron will often simply "phase out" -- an automated viridian teleportation beam returning it to the safety of the stasis-crypts, where it remains in storage until such time as repairs can be carried out.

It would be cool to have it implemented as described, continue making RP rolls for the unit even after it's wiped. Store them in reserves and have a reliable way to return them to the board (not having to rely on another unit being present)

Thoughts on balancing a mechanic like this?

RP able to bring back models that flee, or make warriors fearless, or both. I don't want (a lot of) optional wargear for most units. I like the idea of necrons having very very specific units that do specific job (ideally death marks being character snipers, lychguard being the slow undying body guards or nightmare melee blenders, etc) but of course that could kinda fall into paper, rock, scissors style list where if you didn't bring x then you have a harder time if your opponent brought z, or one unit accidently doing multiple jobs of specific units as good or close enough to take the double duty units. But i guess that is the path to wishlisting.

**Doctoralex**

So, let me bounce these idea's for Necron strategems of you Guys:

Spoiler:

**skoffs**

Look, I can understand trying to divine what stuff the codex might contain based on observations of codex that have already come out, but with only a couple months (potential) until the new book is out, I don't see the point of wishlisting in the tactics thread.

**iGuy91**

Is it just me...but are Necron HQ choices pretty wildly overpriced. Other codecies get bubble buffs on 70 point captains...but we have to pay 120 for an overlord with a buff for a single unit?

**skoffs**

iGuy91 wrote:
Is it just me...but are Necron HQ choices pretty wildly overpriced.

It's not just you.
(that's one of the things they need to address in the codex if there's ever going to be a chance for 'Crons to become viable again)

**Pyrothem**

Hey maybe we will get what the guard and orks have that would fix the RP problem.
A strat to combine units into one.
Letting you have squads of 20 or even 30 immortals or sqauds of 40 warriors meaning needing far less HQ's for buffs and making Veils of D a terrifying weapon it should be.

You will burn through CP checking moral after 2 turns on top of paying to combine so it is not over powered.

A guy can hope....

**torblind**

Doctoralex wrote:
So, let me bounce these idea's for Necron strategems of you Guys:

Spoiler:

1 CP; By Mine Will: Use this strategem whenever an Overlord or Catacomb Command Barge uses the 'My will be Done' or 'Wave of Command' ability. This unit can use this ability an additional time this turn.

1 CP; Enchanced Technomany; At the start of your turn, increase the range of the aura abilities of a Cryptek by 6".

2 CP; Eternal servitude; Use this strategem whenever the last model of a unit with reanimation protocols dies. Do not remove this model from the table. You can roll Reanimation Protocols for this unit at the start of your next turn.

1 CP; Mindless Machines: Use this strategem on a unit of Warriors, Immortals or Scarabs. This unit automatically passes any morale tests for this turn.

1 CP Renewed body: Use this strategem whenever you use the living metal ability on a unit. The unit gains D3 wounds back instead of 1.
If the unit has the Phylactery ability, it gains D6 wounds back instead of 1.

2 CP; Dimensional Portal: Use this strategem whenever a unit of Deathmarks has used the Ethereal Interception ability. When the unit is done shooting, place them back in reserve. This strategem can only be used once per game.

3 CP; Puppeteer of Reality: use this strategem whenever you use the Grand Illusion ability from the C'tan shard of the Deceiver. You can now re position D6 units instead of D3.

1 CP; Star-God's power: Use this strategem whenever a C'tan unit uses a Power of the C'tan. This unit can use one power of the C'tan again for this turn.

1 CP; Trans-dimensional Beings: Use this strategem at the start of the enemy turn. Select a unit of Canoptek Wraiths; this unit is -1 to hit for this turn.

2 CP; Total Destruction; Use this strategem whenever a unit of Destroyers or Heavy Destroyers finished shooting. This unit can shoot again, but must shoot at the same target.

1 CP; Quantum Overload: Use this strategem whenever a unit with Quantum Shielding is taking damage. You can reroll the Quantum Shielding rolls for this unit for this turn.

2 CP; Death and Doom: Use this strategem whenever a unit has been targeted by a Doomscythe's Death Ray and a Doomsday Ark's Doomsday Cannon. This unit takes D6 mortal wounds.

That's all I can come up with for now!

I agree with skoffs and all, but I actually enjoyed reading through the list, seemed well thought through, creative and with nice names (don't ever underestimate how hard it is to come up wtih good named!

**Necronplayer**

Doctoralex wrote:
So, let me bounce these idea's for Necron strategems of you Guys:

Spoiler:

1 CP; By Mine Will: Use this strategem whenever an Overlord or Catacomb Command Barge uses the 'My will be Done' or 'Wave of Command' ability. This unit can use this ability an additional time this turn.

1 CP; Enchanced Technomany; At the start of your turn, increase the range of the aura abilities of a Cryptek by 6".

2 CP; Eternal servitude; Use this strategem whenever the last model of a unit with reanimation protocols dies. Do not remove this model from the table. You can roll Reanimation Protocols for this unit at the start of your next turn.

1 CP; Mindless Machines: Use this strategem on a unit of Warriors, Immortals or Scarabs. This unit automatically passes any morale tests for this turn.

1 CP Renewed body: Use this strategem whenever you use the living metal ability on a unit. The unit gains D3 wounds back instead of 1.
If the unit has the Phylactery ability, it gains D6 wounds back instead of 1.

2 CP; Dimensional Portal: Use this strategem whenever a unit of Deathmarks has used the Ethereal Interception ability. When the unit is done shooting, place them back in reserve. This strategem can only be used once per game.

3 CP; Puppeteer of Reality: use this strategem whenever you use the Grand Illusion ability from the C'tan shard of the Deceiver. You can now re position D6 units instead of D3.

1 CP; Star-God's power: Use this strategem whenever a C'tan unit uses a Power of the C'tan. This unit can use one power of the C'tan again for this turn.

1 CP; Trans-dimensional Beings: Use this strategem at the start of the enemy turn. Select a unit of Canoptek Wraiths; this unit is -1 to hit for this turn.

2 CP; Total Destruction; Use this strategem whenever a unit of Destroyers or Heavy Destroyers finished shooting. This unit can shoot again, but must shoot at the same target.

1 CP; Quantum Overload: Use this strategem whenever a unit with Quantum Shielding is taking damage. You can reroll the Quantum Shielding rolls for this unit for this turn.

2 CP; Death and Doom: Use this strategem whenever a unit has been targeted by a Doomscythe's Death Ray and a Doomsday Ark's Doomsday Cannon. This unit takes D6 mortal wounds.

That's all I can come up with for now!

Great input! I enjoyed this, as well. Maybe it's not too late to influence the design of the codex

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pyrothem wrote:
Hey maybe we will get what the guard and orks have that would fix the RP problem.
A strat to combine units into one.
Letting you have squads of 20 or even 30 immortals or sqauds of 40 warriors meaning needing far less HQ's for buffs and making Veils of D a terrifying weapon it should be.

You will burn through CP checking moral after 2 turns on top of paying to combine so it is not over powered.

A guy can hope....

The value of resurrection orb on those units... Hngggg

**ArtyomTrityak**

This is my personal opinion for Necrons - i played many games during past 6 months.
So my top units:

1. Warriors
I personally think that warriors are better than immortals.
Warriors kill more, survive better, control objectives better.
As result removing 20x warriors is much more problematic than 10x immortal.

2. Scarabs
They are very good for screening and locking in combat.

3. 2x3 Heavy Destroyers + Destroyer lord
It's good. It does good amount of firepower to kill big stuff if you're lucky. You need to give you opponent more threat so they will not focus on them because they are very easy to kill

4. Triarch Stalker
It can be this threat - he goes forward flaming and shooting to support warriors, i like them. They often perform very good.

I'm not saying that Necrons are competitive - it's very hard to play due to issues with too high points cost and not enough heavy firepower. Necrons are bottom tier right now. But those units are a bit better than others.

**skoffs**

Therein lies another problem with current Necrons: their dependence on unit synergy.
Not that other armies don't rely on that, too, but in our case, instead of making whatever unit good it usually just means they're no long as bad.
Eg. Doomsday Ark. By itself, not great. Paired with a Stalker, better... but not exactly amazing (same with Heavy Destroyers + D.Lord, or T.Immortals + Overlord).

Scarabs are an example of one of the few units that don't require another unit to be good... lets just hope they don't wreck them once the book comes out (though I'm predicting a point increase).