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I spoke to the owner of the store via Facebook chat yesterday and he cleared up a few things for me.

He does in fact charge everyone for playing in the store. That includes MTG, Xwing, board gamers, etc. It is a $5/day charge that does go to store credit.

While participation in the league is normally mandatory, he did mention that I would be an exception if I just wanted to play casual games with no league participation but the payment is still mandatory.

I have two issues with paying a minimal charge into store credit. The first is, as I've said, I prefer to purchase a large amount of models at once and paint them all before purchasing more. Tipping a small amount each time just feels awkward to me. As a trader, I honestly just don't like the feeling that I'm basically putting models on "layaway" and every dollar the store is sitting on is another dollar that I can't invest. The second issue is that being in the military, I could PCS at any time and move who knows where. If I have a lot of store credit, I'm basically forced to purchase models that I may not even want just to clear out my credit.

Fortunately for me there are a large number of nearby LGS I can spend my time at which have large play spaces and no charge for table usage. This store has been open for over a decade, I think about 13-14 years so obviously he's figured out what works for him.

 carldooley wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
I can play 40k without a local store, that 5$/week tax is avoidable in my opinion.

Not everyone has a gaming table set up in their home\garage. If you are willing to host a game night, more power to you. But after your buddies empty your fridge, foul your toilet, and fail to put stuff away after using it (assuming someone shows up that you want to play against, no guarantee), you may have a new appreciation for that $5\week charge.

I don't know a single human being that would behave like that. I don't play tournaments with random people, otherwise I would agree about paying for the competition. Certainly I wouldn't organize games with random people in my place. But when I play a single game with a friend I'm satisfied, that means 90+ min anyway. In an area like mine every player know each other, it's group composed by friends. To be honest we don't have local stores that charge players so it's easier for everyone to meet up a the store actually, but we all own some terrain and scenarios and if the local stores decide to charge with a tax no one would go there anymore, we all agree about that, and the stores' managers know it. Inviting a single friend to your place can't be that big deal, everyone invites friends to their place to have some fun together. If you just want to play a casual game like the guy that started the thread you shouldn't pay for the store's place, that's my opinion.

 Blackie wrote:

I understand your point but I think you don't understand mine. I can play 40k without a local store, that 5$/week tax is avoidable in my opinion. Watching a movie at home or drinking beers bought at the supermarket in my living room is completely different than going to the cinema or a club/pub.

Yes, it is. But so is playing at home. It's different than playing at a games store. You meet new people, have different discussions, play armies you've never seen before, maybe even spectate a game rather than playing. Comparing it to the difference between drinking at home with some buddies and going out to a bar is actually a pretty fair comparison.

John Prins wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

I understand your point but I think you don't understand mine. I can play 40k without a local store, that 5$/week tax is avoidable in my opinion. Watching a movie at home or drinking beers bought at the supermarket in my living room is completely different than going to the cinema or a club/pub.

Yes, it is. But so is playing at home. It's different than playing at a games store. You meet new people, have different discussions, play armies you've never seen before, maybe even spectate a game rather than playing. Comparing it to the difference between drinking at home with some buddies and going out to a bar is actually a pretty fair comparison.

That's probably beacause you have a lot of players in your area, if we don't text each other and organize a meeting at the store that's the serious risk that you won't find a single player there. Or maybe those 1-2 annoying guys that you don't like to play with. It's uncommon to have more than 6-7 players at the same time here. But as I said before the entire point of view is subjective, in my opinion a game is a game, at home or at the store it's not that different. But I understand if other people think about the opposite.

XCaligulaX wrote:I spoke to the owner of the store via Facebook chat yesterday and he cleared up a few things for me.

He does in fact charge everyone for playing in the store. That includes MTG, Xwing, board gamers, etc. It is a $5/day charge that does go to store credit.

While participation in the league is normally mandatory, he did mention that I would be an exception if I just wanted to play casual games with no league participation but the payment is still mandatory.

I have two issues with paying a minimal charge into store credit. The first is, as I've said, I prefer to purchase a large amount of models at once and paint them all before purchasing more. Tipping a small amount each time just feels awkward to me. As a trader, I honestly just don't like the feeling that I'm basically putting models on "layaway" and every dollar the store is sitting on is another dollar that I can't invest. The second issue is that being in the military, I could PCS at any time and move who knows where. If I have a lot of store credit, I'm basically forced to purchase models that I may not even want just to clear out my credit.

Fortunately for me there are a large number of nearby LGS I can spend my time at which have large play spaces and no charge for table usage. This store has been open for over a decade, I think about 13-14 years so obviously he's figured out what works for him.

While it may work for him, just tell him he lost a customer. Thing is what I don't understand, is why is the store giving people a free pot of paint to play at his store? This makes no sense at all. So if this $5 is just a "store credit", you can pay the $5, play, and at the end of the day take a pot of paint home. So what is he making? OH I get it now. His business model is selling a pot of paint to anyone who plays at his store. That is a weird business model.

"I rather have you buy a pot of paint from me, than have you make big purchases from me".

What ever works for him I guess. You have your answer now. Just shop and play else where. He doesn't care for your business at all.

While it may work for him, just tell him he lost a customer. Thing is what I don't understand, is why is the store giving people a free pot of paint to play at his store? This makes no sense at all. So if this $5 is just a "store credit", you can pay the $5, play, and at the end of the day take a pot of paint home. So what is he making? OH I get it now. His business model is selling a pot of paint to anyone who plays at his store. That is a weird business model.

"I rather have you buy a pot of paint from me, than have you make big purchases from me".

What ever works for him I guess. You have your answer now. Just shop and play else where. He doesn't care for your business at all.

It may sound strange, and it's obviously just anecdotal, but for some reason, every single one of the stores I've been to that charges for use of games tables has been better for it. I've seen the crowds generally improve, better game nights, and higher sales. Yeah, it cost them a few customers up front, but they all more than made up for those few later.

I wouldn't believe it myself if I hadn't seen it at 3 different stores. There were also two who refused to charge for game space. They had an initial bump in sales/new customers when the other stores began charging for tables, but now one is out of business and the other has cut close to 75% of its inventory and pretty much only sells board games and a few very select RPG lines.

Tycho wrote:
the other has cut close to 75% of its inventory and pretty much only sells board games and a few very select RPG lines.

I worry a bit that this is what's happening at the lgs closest to me. Inventory is way down and not being replenished on miniatures of all systems, for a few months now. And I get it, it sucks if that's the case - I honestly wouldn't like losing the store myself. I can think of several people who would probably go in for the "pay to use the tables" scheme if he were to introduce it, I just wouldn't be one of them. At the very least, my visits would cut down to maybe once a month instead of at least once a week, and there are probably others like me. I'd start getting my own table together earlier than planned, and once that was done I wouldn't go to the lgs at all.

Does charging for tables make mathematical sense?

Assumptions:
$30/square foot rental charge per year, with 1,000 square feet, comes to $30,000
$2,000 / year for utilities + facilities
$50,000 for operator salary

So $82,000 in base operational cost of keeping the store up and running.

A 1,000 square foot store can comfortably fit say 5 gaming tables.

Let's also say that each table generates an average of $5 per day. That's 5*5=$25 per day. That's roughly $6,000 per year.

So, that would account for roughly 8% of the cost required to stay open.

Is it realistic that each table generates $5/day?

XCaligulaX wrote:
I spoke to the owner of the store via Facebook chat yesterday and he cleared up a few things for me.

He does in fact charge everyone for playing in the store. That includes MTG, Xwing, board gamers, etc. It is a $5/day charge that does go to store credit.

While participation in the league is normally mandatory, he did mention that I would be an exception if I just wanted to play casual games with no league participation but the payment is still mandatory.

I have two issues with paying a minimal charge into store credit. The first is, as I've said, I prefer to purchase a large amount of models at once and paint them all before purchasing more. Tipping a small amount each time just feels awkward to me. As a trader, I honestly just don't like the feeling that I'm basically putting models on "layaway" and every dollar the store is sitting on is another dollar that I can't invest. The second issue is that being in the military, I could PCS at any time and move who knows where. If I have a lot of store credit, I'm basically forced to purchase models that I may not even want just to clear out my credit.

Fortunately for me there are a large number of nearby LGS I can spend my time at which have large play spaces and no charge for table usage. This store has been open for over a decade, I think about 13-14 years so obviously he's figured out what works for him.

Try asking if you can pay for several months up front if you have a big purchase coming up?

$5/day is pretty expensive unless the tables are bloody awesome and lots of space. My local place is $5/day, but it's in Australia where things tend to cost slightly more anyway and the tables are awesome, large and there's tons of space.

But if you've got somewhere else you can go, I suppose go there unless they charge more for models.
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
Does charging for tables make mathematical sense?

Assumptions:
$30/square foot rental charge per year, with 1,000 square feet, comes to $30,000
$2,000 / year for utilities + facilities
$50,000 for operator salary

So $82,000 in base operational cost of keeping the store up and running.

A 1,000 square foot store can comfortably fit say 5 gaming tables.

Let's also say that each table generates an average of $5 per day. That's 5*5=$25 per day. That's roughly $6,000 per year.

So, that would account for roughly 8% of the cost required to stay open.

Is it realistic that each table generates $5/day?

It depends where you rent. I can see a place near me that's not the busiest location, but still in a group of shops with plenty of parking, 5-10 minute walk to the train station in a suburb of Melbourne. $36,000 (under $30k US and rent is usually more expensive in Australia) for over 3000 sq ft.

I don't know how much the gaming place near me pays, but I think it's in a similarly low foot traffic area with less parking and similar distance to the train station with almost 5000 sq ft. That place probably only gets 3 or 4 people playing on weekdays (at least that I've seen), but it's not open most weekdays (so you have to subtract that from wages) and then weekends and friday night it probably gets 10-ish games going a night and then those people are also buying food and drinks. Occasionally they have events or clubs in where there'd be even more happening.

But it's still only a portion of the revenue. Hobby stores rely on several streams of income to stay afloat. This store also has people in pretty much whenever it's open hanging round painting, buying painting supplies and food/drinks while they do so and also the regular miniature sales on top of that.

It's obviously just a balance though, with all the cranky Americans in this thread disgusted at the idea of paying a few bucks to play a game it'd be a terrible business model, but it seems people out here don't really care if they have to pay $5 to play a few games as long as they're good tables and a good environment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
I understand your point but I think you don't understand mine. I can play 40k without a local store, that 5$/week tax is avoidable in my opinion. Watching a movie at home or drinking beers bought at the supermarket in my living room is completely different than going to the cinema or a club/pub.

It's pretty much exactly the same. If you have a big TV and nice surround sound system going to the movies becomes a waste of money. If you have a nice area to entertain going out for drinks becomes worth less. If you have big rooms which can fit multiple tables, going to a store to play a wargame becomes an avoidable cost.

If you can't fit a 4x8 table in your house and don't have a bunch of awesome terrain and can't fit multiple tables in if you want to play with more than 1 other person.... well.... going to a properly setup gaming venue becomes no less avoidable than going to a pub or a cinema.

That's a really good suggestion Skink, if I really wanted to play there I would just ask him if I can get credit for making large purchases.

I'm happy with the new store I'm going to. I've been in there a few times, and twice I've had games last until after closing time and the owner was nice enough to let us finish the game before closing. That speaks volumes about their dedication to the customer. I was blown away that he wanted us to finish. This store has earned my loyalty. If they are still around after this deployment I'm going to buy my full Catachan GSC army from them.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
I understand your point but I think you don't understand mine. I can play 40k without a local store, that 5$/week tax is avoidable in my opinion. Watching a movie at home or drinking beers bought at the supermarket in my living room is completely different than going to the cinema or a club/pub.

It's pretty much exactly the same. If you have a big TV and nice surround sound system going to the movies becomes a waste of money. If you have a nice area to entertain going out for drinks becomes worth less. If you have big rooms which can fit multiple tables, going to a store to play a wargame becomes an avoidable cost.

If you can't fit a 4x8 table in your house and don't have a bunch of awesome terrain and can't fit multiple tables in if you want to play with more than 1 other person.... well.... going to a properly setup gaming venue becomes no less avoidable than going to a pub or a cinema.

Exactley, I think it's something completely subjective, I'd prefer playing home if the store decides to charge, but in the same time I'd rather go to the cinema than watching a movie at home, even with a 100 inches 4K TV. I just need a single standard game, 1850 points or lower formats, I don't care about tournaments so in my opinion, according to what i need and what I want, paying 5$ every time I want to play is too much. I usually play in the stores anyway as nobody here charges players, charging people only to play in their stores would instant kill the 40k meta here. Only tournaments have a fee, and I agree about that.

Davor wrote:

XCaligulaX wrote:I spoke to the owner of the store via Facebook chat yesterday and he cleared up a few things for me.

He does in fact charge everyone for playing in the store. That includes MTG, Xwing, board gamers, etc. It is a $5/day charge that does go to store credit.

While participation in the league is normally mandatory, he did mention that I would be an exception if I just wanted to play casual games with no league participation but the payment is still mandatory.

I have two issues with paying a minimal charge into store credit. The first is, as I've said, I prefer to purchase a large amount of models at once and paint them all before purchasing more. Tipping a small amount each time just feels awkward to me. As a trader, I honestly just don't like the feeling that I'm basically putting models on "layaway" and every dollar the store is sitting on is another dollar that I can't invest. The second issue is that being in the military, I could PCS at any time and move who knows where. If I have a lot of store credit, I'm basically forced to purchase models that I may not even want just to clear out my credit.

Fortunately for me there are a large number of nearby LGS I can spend my time at which have large play spaces and no charge for table usage. This store has been open for over a decade, I think about 13-14 years so obviously he's figured out what works for him.

While it may work for him, just tell him he lost a customer. Thing is what I don't understand, is why is the store giving people a free pot of paint to play at his store? This makes no sense at all. So if this $5 is just a "store credit", you can pay the $5, play, and at the end of the day take a pot of paint home. So what is he making? OH I get it now. His business model is selling a pot of paint to anyone who plays at his store. That is a weird business model.

"I rather have you buy a pot of paint from me, than have you make big purchases from me".

What ever works for him I guess. You have your answer now. Just shop and play else where. He doesn't care for your business at all.

Tha'ts a better business than having a bunch of stuck-up self-entitled brats hanging around and using his tables while never buying anything at all.
A pot of paint>nothing.



Really people, it's 5$ going directly towards store credits.
How can ANYONE complain about this? you actually DO get to play for free under the assumption that you ever buy there.
If you buy there-you get store credits (heck, you can probably even trade store credits to a friend for money, just buy for him and he pays you back-in case you got nothing to buy and HAVE to spend the credit)
If you literally never buy anything-why on freaking earth do you think the FLGS owes you a place to play?

Heck, 5$ NOT going towards store credits and just being payment is well reasonable if they provide high quality tables.

Quite honestly, you people and your attitude is disgusting, and had I been running a store, I'd much prefer not having you there.
Forget costing me money by demanding service for free, you are polluting the community mentality and probably causing others to be more stingy about their money as well.
You are, for all intents and purposes, a negative value. the place is better off without you. (I'd refrain from stronger words, but I certainly have several at mind.)

Lots of FLGS don't ask people some money to play in their stores, in my area no one would do something like that.
They all have 2-5 tables and some scenario, typically nice stuff but built years ago, made by people who built it for fun ed usually donated to the store by players that quit from gaming. Having some people around that buy something, even occasionally, is still a good form of business. Having some kids that watch a 40k match can convince those children to start the hobby and to buy items in that store. It also helps to maintain a certain number of players in the area so some tournaments can be organized, and they come with a fee and we're all ok about that. In my area only card games are very popular so if FLGS have some miniatures players around it's only for their benefit. I also have to report that some of our best stores also have their online store with the most competitive prices, so actually having players around really helps their business.

Another Game Store I went to a couple of times (the distance killed any recurring frequency) had a front store and an aft game section. Couple of wargames tables, a few shelves with terrain, a few spare tables for card games or board games.
Once you bought something game-related, and to a minimum of 10 euros I believe, you could go in the back. Your receipt (with the date and time of purchase) was the entry ticket, so to speak. When you left the gaming area to go to the vending machine across the street, you could just go back in, no problem. If you stayed away for a more signifficant amount of time you'd be considered having left the gaming area. When you got in the back you had your receipt marked with a pen by the staff or the owner. This way they kept track who had been in the game area.

No extra charge to game. No buying just a 50 cents item to game. Not really an exorbitant amount to but yourself into the game area, to my opinion.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Tha'ts a better business than having a bunch of stuck-up self-entitled brats hanging around and using his tables while never buying anything at all.
A pot of paint>nothing.

Really people, it's 5$ going directly towards store credits.
How can ANYONE complain about this? you actually DO get to play for free under the assumption that you ever buy there.
If you buy there-you get store credits (heck, you can probably even trade store credits to a friend for money, just buy for him and he pays you back-in case you got nothing to buy and HAVE to spend the credit)
If you literally never buy anything-why on freaking earth do you think the FLGS owes you a place to play?

Heck, 5$ NOT going towards store credits and just being payment is well reasonable if they provide high quality tables.

Quite honestly, you people and your attitude is disgusting, and had I been running a store, I'd much prefer not having you there.
Forget costing me money by demanding service for free, you are polluting the community mentality and probably causing others to be more stingy about their money as well.
You are, for all intents and purposes, a negative value. the place is better off without you. (I'd refrain from stronger words, but I certainly have several at mind.)

So because someone prefers to support the store via actual purchases instead of putting $5 on hold every week they are disgusting and a detriment to the community? Please tell me more about how people with different views are evil, Mr. Trump.

The only detrimental person here is you. We're having a civil discussion without any personal attacks and you come in spouting vitriol. Certainly there is a more civil way to express your opinion other than berating strangers on the internet.

Has anyone ever factored out how much of FNM entry fee's are kept by their LGS? I used to go to one that would have 16+ people every FNM, and they'd keep 50%. The other 50% would go towards boosters as prizes for the top 4 players.

Doesn't seem like much, but once you really look at it that's an additional $4,000 per year the store is bringing in just for smartly working the FNM system.

Not sure how much they made off Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokemon, etc. (This was back in 2008, and they did not support any non TCG's)

What I'm getting at is your store may actually already be charging people, but in an indirect manner.

 BoomWolf wrote:


Tha'ts a better business than having a bunch of stuck-up self-entitled brats hanging around and using his tables while never buying anything at all.

Yeah okay, except for the thing that's been noted several times - full tables brings more interest. It's up to the owner how they want to run their business, but if people aren't playing at the tables, it looks more like a sad wasteland.

Really people, it's 5$ going directly towards store credits.
How can ANYONE complain about this? you actually DO get to play for free under the assumption that you ever buy there.
If you buy there-you get store credits (heck, you can probably even trade store credits to a friend for money, just buy for him and he pays you back-in case you got nothing to buy and HAVE to spend the credit)
If you literally never buy anything-why on freaking earth do you think the FLGS owes you a place to play?

I don't think anyone has talked about being owed anything - so that's a logical fallacy.

Heck, 5$ NOT going towards store credits and just being payment is well reasonable if they provide high quality tables.

We don't know the quality, and that's purely opinion.

Quite honestly, you people and your attitude is disgusting, and had I been running a store, I'd much prefer not having you there.
Forget costing me money by demanding service for free, you are polluting the community mentality and probably causing others to be more stingy about their money as well.
You are, for all intents and purposes, a negative value. the place is better off without you. (I'd refrain from stronger words, but I certainly have several at mind.)

This is the best part. All possibility of civil discussion breaks down here. Calling people disgusting, claiming they're demanding a service (news flash - most lgs that DON'T charge are in fact OFFERING the service, so the order of operations is a little skewed there - and people who don't want to pay to play aren't going to the owners and demanding anything, they're instead wishing the service was offered - there's a difference), claiming they're a "negative value" to your hypothetical store that you'd actively be driving people away from apparently. Sorry, but this level of toxicity is much worse for the community than anybody saying "Hey you know what, I'd rather not be forced to pay for table use but I'm happy to buy things from the store regardless."

This is perfectly within his right to do so. In addition, since this is a League, I say that the League itself has no problems (tournaments are always good for encouraging a local community).

That said, I think this kind of thinking is short sighted and ultimately damning for the owner for not having the option of a "free play" area. Money is always a barrier, even if the cost is reasonable and you do get something more in return. A common fallacy for store owners hurting for money is that they need to pass the charge of the store space onto the customer directly via making you pay to use it. This is a poor idea because if you opened up a small space, any space, for "free play", it's essentially advertising for your merch in your store. What you lose in that floor space you make up in volume of sales in other areas.

I live near toronto and most of the stores within the downtown area, instead of charging you for the floor space, instead offer refreshments (pop, snacks and, rarely, full meals). These are, of course, marked up much more than if you ran across the street for a burger, but the convenience is what draws people in (especially if you know the traffic situation in downtown toronto, most people would rather spend 3 bucks more on a pop than having to brave that traffic nightmare) and everyone is fully aware of it. In addition, some of the shops will stock a game that they didn't before if they see someone coming in with it and it draws enough attention. Fundamentally the net result is the same, but a lot more people are willing to open their wallets when you give them a fair choice rather than try to impose fees on them. In addition, in such a situation there are often much more people paying than those that are not, and with careful balancing of prices this can, on average, cover the cost even for non-payers.

As for proof how this works, most of these FLGS I go to have been in business for a third of a decade at least now (this is only the duration for which I've known them, I don't know exactly how long they've operated) whereas most stores of this type generally would consider themselves lucky to last past a year or two, so they are doing something right. I would suggest proposing the "refreshments" idea to your LGS to see if it takes. I fully believe that is a much better practice for businesses and everyone benefits in the long run.

Why are we having name calling again for having differing opinions? So because we live in different cultures have different ideas, it's ok to start calling people "entitled" or what not and labeling an entire country with one brush is just wrong. Just respect that we all have differing opinions. That is what makes us humans and let's us live in societies where we are allowed to have differing opinions. Why does it come down to, "you think differently than I, you are an what ever word".

Remember we all live in different parts of the world. What is the norm for you may not be the norm for other people. So why are we instilling people's values and opinions on others now? How come we have to degrade ourselves to name calling?

If it's in humour, I don't see it. If it's in jest, I don't see it. Let's just respect each other for having differing opinions and cultures.

If the $5 is going towards store credit, the owner has a brilliant loyalty program. Think, if 10 guys show up over the course of the day, to play he's made a sale. Guaranteed. No risk. If some of those guys also buy something, he's made two sales. That said, I'd be quite willing to pay $5 per day as a "rental" fee for the tables, with nothing in return for it. I'd value that space, and the business that's being run there. The owner needs to look at his customers as living wallets. If he doesn't, he won't be in business, and there will be nowhere to play. Waive the fee if someone buys $20 or more worth of product, sure, but a fee is perfectly reasonable.

Personally, I play in a garage. I used to play at my place, but a friend now has a nice garage we can play in, so we play there now. I've never been much of a FLGS player, but I was always fortunate enough to have a group of friends to play with. I haven't spent serious money on 40k in a long time. I used to buy from the GW in London, Ontario, but I'm not happy with 40k these days, so I've stopped spending.

That said, if I was still playing there, I think they'd have every reason to make me pay something to play there, since I rarely buy anything at all, much less a major purchase. That forced $5 a week, say, especially if it was towards store credit, would likely have loosened my purse strings.

To the people that think this is outrageous, and that this is the straw that would break your back, you're likely not the type of valuable customer the proprietor is looking for. Consistent cash flow is what keeps most businesses running. You might buy in bulk, but that doesn't help him in the rest of the lean months.

Playing once per week, costs $260 per year. Assuming you go 52 times in a year, and you're getting store credit, that would give you a solid "starter army", or an allied detachment, including codex, some paint, and a couple brushes. Like, a "start collecting" box, plus another unit, maybe two, and the other supplies to get started. The year after, you could expand that into a solid, playable force. That's what an LGS owner would be looking for in an ideal customer, and it seems like a brilliant way to ensure customer loyalty to the store. Times however many regulars are coming in. If you've got 10 regulars, those people are putting $2600 into your pocket every year, and you're probably making a profit of $1000 off of those people. Plus the 30 or so players that pop in 2 or 3 times a month, so let's say $150 from each of them over the year is another $4500, of which you'd see $1800 in gross profit. I'd bet that making $2800 in reliable gross profit from a single "line" of product would be golden for a store that probably runs primarily off of CCG sales.

If you want your business to thrive, long term, you need to make a plan that works, long term.

One thought on the matter: People don't appreciate free. When someone gets something for free, they treat it as if it has no value (that's why it's free), either to them or to the person offering it.

If you charge a table fee, even a negligible one, it's going to sit in the back of the user's mind that someone values the table and terrain enough to charge good money for its use. Therefore it has a value and should be treated with respect.

Obviously this isn't universal, but it's a tendency I've noticed over time. Additionally, people who have paid for the use of the space are more likely to act respectfully, because if they get the boot they've effectively lost money.

As for the OP's example, I think it's an extremely reasonable arrangement, it's just one that doesn't work for the OP because of personal habits/circumstances.

Fine, I accept that I have went slightly overboard with my reaction there.

Does not change the fact that I am right, and under the assumption that you are an actual costumer that buys in the shop the 5$ fee that goes towards credits equals free anyway, because its money you would have spent in said shop anyway.

Also does not change the fact that if you do not buy in that shop, you are a non-costumer and letting you play without charging anything is a losing prospect and the only reason a shop should even consider it is if the attendance is SO LOW that the money earned by charging is negligible and they simply HAVE to generate bigger traffic to increase sales.


Putting it this way-I'm not wrong, I'm just an arsehole (yep, I fully admit I'm a jerk about 70% of the time. not gonna appologise for being one though, as I've found during my life that not being a jerk leads directly to people walking over me and expecting me to serve them as if I owe them anything.)

 BoomWolf wrote:
Fine, I accept that I have went slightly overboard with my reaction there.

Does not change the fact that I am right, and under the assumption that you are an actual costumer that buys in the shop the 5$ fee that goes towards credits equals free anyway, because its money you would have spent in said shop anyway.

Also does not change the fact that if you do not buy in that shop, you are a non-costumer and letting you play without charging anything is a losing prospect and the only reason a shop should even consider it is if the attendance is SO LOW that the money earned by charging is negligible and they simply HAVE to generate bigger traffic to increase sales.


Putting it this way-I'm not wrong, I'm just an arsehole (yep, I fully admit I'm a jerk about 70% of the time. not gonna appologise for being one though, as I've found during my life that not being a jerk leads directly to people walking over me and expecting me to serve them as if I owe them anything.)

I guess this needs to be repeated again: Almost no one here is saying they don't buy in their lgs, the only discussion is about charging for table use. I buy things from my lgs, but would stop going if I had to pay to use their tables.

This is an interesting dilemma because the money paid in to using the tables in this one specific situation goes to store credit, but I still don't like that, either. I see it as securing business, but not earning it.

You're still not factually right, you just have an opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 greatbigtree wrote:


To the people that think this is outrageous, and that this is the straw that would break your back, you're likely not the type of valuable customer the proprietor is looking for. Consistent cash flow is what keeps most businesses running. You might buy in bulk, but that doesn't help him in the rest of the lean months.

Playing once per week, costs $260 per year. Assuming you go 52 times in a year, and you're getting store credit, that would give you a solid "starter army", or an allied detachment, including codex, some paint, and a couple brushes. Like, a "start collecting" box, plus another unit, maybe two, and the other supplies to get started. The year after, you could expand that into a solid, playable force. That's what an LGS owner would be looking for in an ideal customer, and it seems like a brilliant way to ensure customer loyalty to the store. Times however many regulars are coming in. If you've got 10 regulars, those people are putting $2600 into your pocket every year, and you're probably making a profit of $1000 off of those people. Plus the 30 or so players that pop in 2 or 3 times a month, so let's say $150 from each of them over the year is another $4500, of which you'd see $1800 in gross profit. I'd bet that making $2800 in reliable gross profit from a single "line" of product would be golden for a store that probably runs primarily off of CCG sales.

Okay, so it's better for the store owner to get $260 over the course of a year, that gets used to buy a starter force or equivalent, than it is to get a bulk purchase of over $500 or more? (Just throwing a number out there, that's about what I expect to spend when I start a new army). I've spent over $2,000 at my lgs in the past year, if they started charging for tables, yeah, that amount would change to 0 for the upcoming year pretty fast.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Fine, I accept that I have went slightly overboard with my reaction there.

Does not change the fact that I am right, and under the assumption that you are an actual costumer that buys in the shop the 5$ fee that goes towards credits equals free anyway, because its money you would have spent in said shop anyway.

Also does not change the fact that if you do not buy in that shop, you are a non-costumer and letting you play without charging anything is a losing prospect and the only reason a shop should even consider it is if the attendance is SO LOW that the money earned by charging is negligible and they simply HAVE to generate bigger traffic to increase sales.


Putting it this way-I'm not wrong, I'm just an arsehole (yep, I fully admit I'm a jerk about 70% of the time. not gonna appologise for being one though, as I've found during my life that not being a jerk leads directly to people walking over me and expecting me to serve them as if I owe them anything.)

The store is entitled to charge for gaming tables.
People are entitled to go elsewhere if the table charge bothers them.

The store could start charging $5 for the table for a day of use, and in response, a patron could stop going to the store. Both parties would be completely justified in this example.

It's a similar concept to a cover charge to get into a bar. Even a $5 cover charge rubs us filthy Americans the wrong way.

My personal stance is that "having space" isn't "providing a service."

If money is such an issue and you don't benefit from having tables in your store, rent a smaller space with no tables at all, and save a ton of money. Out here, space is expensive in populated areas.

Let's look at it this way. Let's say you want to have 5 tables in your store, and that you need the base 6x4 + a foot on each side for people to stand. that's 7x5 or 35 square feet devoted to a table. So, you're paying $5000-$6500 in California per year for those tables space. We've already demonstrated it'd be theoretically possible if each table was generating money every single day that this would cover that cost, but in reality it probably wouldn't.

So ask yourself:

If renting the extra space to have tables is already a losing proposition, and the store owner gets no value but what he can charge for the tables, why have them?

Jacksmiles wrote:
Okay, so it's better for the store owner to get $260 over the course of a year, that gets used to buy a starter force or equivalent, than it is to get a bulk purchase of over $500 or more? (Just throwing a number out there, that's about what I expect to spend when I start a new army). I've spent over $2,000 at my lgs in the past year, if they started charging for tables, yeah, that amount would change to 0 for the upcoming year pretty fast.

Overall, it's best for the store to have customers that spend money regularly. One of the big problems with operating a business is cash flow. For example, the owner has a far easier life if a customer spends $100 every month than if he shows up in September and buys $1200 worth of stuff, because there are bills that have to be paid every month. Obviously a retailer should be happy with all sales, but they'll be the MOST happy and healthy with regular sales.

 Marmatag wrote:
It's a similar concept to a cover charge to get into a bar. Even a $5 cover charge rubs us filthy Americans the wrong way.

As filthy as you Americans are, no argument there Even in Australia the land of overpriced stuff I don't go to bars that have a cover charge

My personal stance is that "having space" isn't "providing a service."

No, but filling it with tables is

If renting the extra space to have tables is already a losing proposition, and the store owner gets no value but what he can charge for the tables, why have them?

Because you're trying to build a community to support your store. You could be doing it for free, but if your patrons are willing to pay then that can work too.

The same way a pub might have a pool table that costs $2 a game, it might make $6 an hour by itself while people are playing, but then has the added benefit of keeping people in the pub where they end up buying food and drinks. Of course if they DON'T, you've still made $6.

Tables are the same.

Also I still think your maths is flawed. I feel like you're assuming you're just going to rent another store in an area that charges the exact same per sq ft, but in reality when a hobby store wants to get bigger they tend to move to a place that's cheaper per sq ft. They might be paying more or they might be paying less, it's something you have to weigh up depending on the specific store.

I've chatted to the guy who owns the local hobby shop, he moved from a high foot traffic area near the train station to a spot with less foot traffic, no where near a train station, better parking and 3 times the floor space for less money. He did it because after being in the old place for years he discovered he was making very little money from walk ins or people coming by train and needed more space for stock. Even though he was in a heavy foot traffic area before he found most his sales were from people who found his website, found him on google maps or already knew of his store.

It's all a balancing act and what's going to work in one place might not be feasible in another.

Also you're talking about a place with 5 tables. The places I've seen to have 10+ tables, enough so that they can hold proper events and don't have to have a "40k night" once a month because they have enough space that a few people can be playing 40k and a few people can be playing KoW while another group is having an X-wing tournament.

I think shops can jump on to the pay to play thing when they notice clubs are already paying money to rent out spaces and then spending hours setting up and packing up each time, where instead they could pay a similar or slightly larger amount of money to a hobby shop and all the tables are already set up. I think if clubs tend to meet in their homes and people in the area are so averse to paying for stuff then it's probably not going to be a working business model.

That's fair.

If a shop had 10 tables and was holding events, I would absolutely say charge, because effort is going into maintaining that kind of stuff.

If someone is charging you $5 to roll out your mat and set up your terrain, that dog won't hunt.

John Prins wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:
Okay, so it's better for the store owner to get $260 over the course of a year, that gets used to buy a starter force or equivalent, than it is to get a bulk purchase of over $500 or more? (Just throwing a number out there, that's about what I expect to spend when I start a new army). I've spent over $2,000 at my lgs in the past year, if they started charging for tables, yeah, that amount would change to 0 for the upcoming year pretty fast.

Overall, it's best for the store to have customers that spend money regularly. One of the big problems with operating a business is cash flow. For example, the owner has a far easier life if a customer spends $100 every month than if he shows up in September and buys $1200 worth of stuff, because there are bills that have to be paid every month. Obviously a retailer should be happy with all sales, but they'll be the MOST happy and healthy with regular sales.

I realize that there's monthly payments, but I find it interesting that it would be preferable to have an equivalent amount of money spread out instead of all at once. I would have figured it would be fine either way, because whatever profit comes out of those sales is equal and still goes to the store, and at the end of the year it has the same amount from those sale. I've never run a business, though, so this line of conversation is just a learning experience for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
That's fair.

If a shop had 10 tables and was holding events, I would absolutely say charge, because effort is going into maintaining that kind of stuff.

If someone is charging you $5 to roll out your mat and set up your terrain, that dog won't hunt.

My lgs has 13 wargaming tables and a ton of terrain. They charge for monthly events but not open play, and charging for events makes sense 100% to me, especially as there's prize support.

If anything you want the money early on so it earns interest.

In reality you often get sales close to the end of the financial year because stores are trying to clear stuff out quicker (at least that happens out here).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
That's fair.

If a shop had 10 tables and was holding events, I would absolutely say charge, because effort is going into maintaining that kind of stuff.

If someone is charging you $5 to roll out your mat and set up your terrain, that dog won't hunt.

Yeah definitely agree if the store isn't putting any effort or investment in to the tables then they aren't really worth paying for.

Not to mention, Christmas time. A lot of retailers do 80%+ of their business in November-January.