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 Samsonov wrote:
I think the response to all this shows quite some different audiences are in the community. We have the biggest change to 40K background in 25 years and most people are discussing the rules for a couple of models, ones who will only be used in some games and then only be one component of those games.

However, I think the people who are most interested in background are likely to be buying less than those who are interested in the rules for the latest models, so perhaps GW is taking the correct approach when it comes to selling models.

I really only buy now because I like the models or the idea - but I think you are right in that respect - they want to sell models and hence need to do new things and its better than vever so slightly different marines all the time!

re the change to the background = well thats not exactly true - the background remains as is - its not like the Necron retcon which was a huge change, however new things are happening - more like the Clan era of BattleTech.

The High Lords of Terra and Segmentum Command speak the words of the Emperor with the voice of the Ecclesiarchy

Except that RG is blessed by both a Living Saint and the Ad Mech - two pillars of the Imperium - the Church and the Machine.

Why would Tau be considered "Desperate Allies" but Orks and Necrons are "Allies of Convenience"? Why would they hate the Tau more than those.......

Bulwark of purity: 1 librarian, 2 units of paladins, 2 terminators (all grey knights). Librarian must wear terminator. While 3+ units on battlefield you can add +1 to deny the witch tests, and if any unit casts banishment all daemons within 12" of any unit in the formation are also affected

If this and Voldus's stats are true then it's sadly a pretty lackluster release for Grey Knights. This formation doesn't really make Paladins any more usable than they are now so you're effectively paying a massive Paladin tax for +1 DTW and better Banishment.

Voldus himself is arguably worse than a generic Librarian too. S8 AP2 at initiative is nice, but he's still just ML3 with no bonuses to psychic powers. Most Grey Knight players weren't taking their Librarians to be excellent melee beat sticks I don't think.

Really cool fluff in the release though and Rowboat seems pretty well balanced and good.

Is this fan art or official art?

 Samsonov wrote:
I think the response to all this shows quite some different audiences are in the community. We have the biggest change to 40K background in 25 years and most people are discussing the rules for a couple of models, ones who will only be used in some games and then only be one component of those games.

However, I think the people who are most interested in background are likely to be buying less than those who are interested in the rules for the latest models, so perhaps GW is taking the correct approach when it comes to selling models.

Yep, like it or not, it looks like they are making good business decisions.

Yep from the what I saw on Voldus he is one of the worst stat for points characters so far........

240pts.....better to just bring Drago with a normal libby in his squad to save points.

On init thunderhammer is nice but the point cost is pretty steep for just that.....Esp when you compare him to the 1st trium and their stats...he just plain sucks in comparison.

I was hoping for a little more options for fallen, to actually make them a small army with limited vehicle and heavy options..

chaos45 wrote:
Yep from the what I saw on Voldus he is one of the worst stat for points characters so far........

240pts.....better to just bring Drago with a normal libby in his squad to save points.

On init thunderhammer is nice but the point cost is pretty steep for just that.....Esp when you compare him to the 1st trium and their stats...he just plain sucks in comparison.

Voldus is a ML3 Grandmaster, not a librarian, statwise. And presumably a HQ, not a lord of War like Draigo.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

chaos45 wrote:
Yep from the what I saw on Voldus he is one of the worst stat for points characters so far........

240pts.....better to just bring Drago with a normal libby in his squad to save points.

On init thunderhammer is nice but the point cost is pretty steep for just that.....Esp when you compare him to the 1st trium and their stats...he just plain sucks in comparison.

Voldus is a ML3 Grandmaster, not a librarian, statwise. And presumably a HQ, not a lord of War like Draigo.

So, Grey Knights don't really have any Lords of War besides Draigo. It's not really a coveted slot we need freed up.

And I dunno if you've looked at the GM statline, but it's not terribly incredible. Especially because an actual GM gets it and ML 2 for 185 points. Voldus is really overcosted in an army that's already overcosted.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Davor wrote:
Fluff is eternal? Then how come Dark Angels are green and not black like in Rouge Trader? How come we have Primarchs? How come we have 30K? We had none of that in Rogue Trader.

Because that was 40K at its inception. There was a mass rationalisation of the 40K setting at the start of 2nd Ed where they defined everything and threw out a lot of the weirder RT stuff.

Kirasu wrote:

Davor wrote:
Fluff is eternal? Then how come Dark Angels are green and not black like in Rouge Trader? How come we have Primarchs? How come we have 30K? We had none of that in Rogue Trader.

If you haven't figured out that Rogue Trader fluff has been mostly dead since 1992... then I don't know what to tell you? Some parts of RT remained but they basically rebuilt the game and the fluff around a totally different set of ideas. Time to just let it go, imo.

Azreal13 wrote:

Davor wrote:
Then how come Dark Angels are green and not black like in Rouge Trader?

Because, at some point in time long forgotten, except maybe by a few of the highest ranking administratum, an artist got the brief wrong.

The point was, forget who said it now, that fluff never changes. So I pointed it out it does. I guess it can only change if you say so eh? So the "fluff eternal" that is not suppose to change is only ok to change if you like the change then eh? Wow, people who I thought would never move the goal posts and can actually have a great debate have just made excuses. So it's ok for second edition to change the fluff but anything after that is not allowed? Got it.

25pts for ML3 and how many points for a Daemonhammer? Is at Initiative Daemon Hammer not worth 30pts?

Davor wrote:


The point was, forget who said it now, that fluff never changes. So I pointed it out it does. I guess it can only change if you say so eh? So the "fluff eternal" that is not suppose to change is only ok to change if you like the change then eh? Wow, people who I thought would never move the goal posts and can actually have a great debate have just made excuses. So it's ok for second edition to change the fluff but anything after that is not allowed? Got it.

Please also disregard changes after 2nd edition, such as Squats, Tau, original Necron fluff, and anything else that may come to mind that disproves their argument.

 Crazyterran wrote:
25pts for ML3 and how many points for a Daemonhammer? Is at Initiative Daemon Hammer not worth 30pts?

Voldus costs 240. A Grandmaster with a Daemon Hammer is 195. So we're paying 45 points for 1 ML and swinging the hammer at initiative.

That's a pretty bad trade in GK land. Remember, the 35 points for Grandmaster status (over Brother-Captain) is also not entirely considered worth it either.

Part of the reason for this is because we have access to 2 point Halberds (S5) and almost every infantry knows Hammerhand. Grey Knights are already happily swinging around S7 at initiative for basically nothing. Going to 10 and changing AP from 3 to 2 on one guy isn't a huge buff when you're basically S7 army wide already. Every Grey Knight knows Force too so our S7 is more than capable of trashing MC's and GMC's. The S10 is really only useful for Imperial Knights. Voldus won't kill an Imperial Knight in one turn so you won't want him fighting one anyway in case he gets stomped.

GK's take their Libbies so often because we get ML3 in Terminator armor for 135 points (and they only pay 5 points to add a Hammer to that). It's cheap. Voldus ain't that.

Audustum wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

chaos45 wrote:
Yep from the what I saw on Voldus he is one of the worst stat for points characters so far........

240pts.....better to just bring Drago with a normal libby in his squad to save points.

On init thunderhammer is nice but the point cost is pretty steep for just that.....Esp when you compare him to the 1st trium and their stats...he just plain sucks in comparison.

Voldus is a ML3 Grandmaster, not a librarian, statwise. And presumably a HQ, not a lord of War like Draigo.

So, Grey Knights don't really have any Lords of War besides Draigo. It's not really a coveted slot we need freed up.

And I dunno if you've looked at the GM statline, but it's not terribly incredible. Especially because an actual GM gets it and ML 2 for 185 points. Voldus is really overcosted in an army that's already overcosted.

And the Extra Mastery Level is 25 and the Daemon Hammer is 10 points. He's really not far off in terms of cost.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

chaos45 wrote:
Yep from the what I saw on Voldus he is one of the worst stat for points characters so far........

240pts.....better to just bring Drago with a normal libby in his squad to save points.

On init thunderhammer is nice but the point cost is pretty steep for just that.....Esp when you compare him to the 1st trium and their stats...he just plain sucks in comparison.

Voldus is a ML3 Grandmaster, not a librarian, statwise. And presumably a HQ, not a lord of War like Draigo.

So, Grey Knights don't really have any Lords of War besides Draigo. It's not really a coveted slot we need freed up.

And I dunno if you've looked at the GM statline, but it's not terribly incredible. Especially because an actual GM gets it and ML 2 for 185 points. Voldus is really overcosted in an army that's already overcosted.

And the Extra Mastery Level is 25 and the Daemon Hammer is 10 points. He's really not far off in terms of cost.

The ML3 on Librarians is 25, yeah. GM's can't go to ML3. Most GK's don't think GM status is worth it though. We use Libby HQ's cause they're cheap and the huge cost of everything else in the army requires us to skrimp. Draigo is worth 245 for 2 reasons: Eternal Warrior and a Storm Shield. Voldus will just get insta-deathed under a S8 pie plate like a GM would.

Davor wrote:


The point was, forget who said it now, that fluff never changes.

Perhaps you're forgetting who said it because nobody actually did? Fluff =\= setting. The details may change, new things may be introduced, but the ultimate framework stays the same, just what was once written in broad brush strokes now becomes more tightly resolved and details that weren't readily apparent before are now in focus.

Introducing a new Tau walker or Space Marine tank doesn't radically change the fundamental preposition of the whole in-game universe, bringing an element of the mythology originally designed to contextualise that universe back to life is a substantially bigger shift.

But the fact you apparently quoted me in a serious response when I was making a joke shows you've probably not got the strongest grip in this argument anyway.

No need to dissect my 'fluff is eternal' quip. It was merely a response to the comment about rules being more important than the background and I strongly disagreed. I am perfectly aware that the fluff is not literally eternal.On fundamental level it has been pretty unchanged (at least when it comes to Imperium) since the second edition though, and has inspired me to build, paint and convert models even when the rules may have been less than stellar. It remains to be seen whether I can find this new era equally engaging. As it certainly must have been clear by my comments on the subject, I have some serious doubts about that.

As for Voldus, he seems to me be fairly priced when compared to the normal Grand Master, but of course if the GM is already overpriced, then so will Voldus.

I honestly don't believe reinvigorating RG is that fundamentally ground breaking, it has always been mentioned as a possibility, whilst he is sure a huge influence in the Imperium, he is not the emperor, he has been laid low once before, it can happen again.

If it was raising the big E, or even Sangy from the grave then I would be inclined to agree, but RG as powerful a figure as he is, cannot do it all himself, and will not be able to do it all himself.

It's huge, but it doesn't change the setting that much, in fact, it makes it more grim for the imperium in many ways, like when some of the high lords inevitably plot against him.

Audustum wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

chaos45 wrote:
Yep from the what I saw on Voldus he is one of the worst stat for points characters so far........

240pts.....better to just bring Drago with a normal libby in his squad to save points.

On init thunderhammer is nice but the point cost is pretty steep for just that.....Esp when you compare him to the 1st trium and their stats...he just plain sucks in comparison.

Voldus is a ML3 Grandmaster, not a librarian, statwise. And presumably a HQ, not a lord of War like Draigo.

So, Grey Knights don't really have any Lords of War besides Draigo. It's not really a coveted slot we need freed up.

And I dunno if you've looked at the GM statline, but it's not terribly incredible. Especially because an actual GM gets it and ML 2 for 185 points. Voldus is really overcosted in an army that's already overcosted.

And the Extra Mastery Level is 25 and the Daemon Hammer is 10 points. He's really not far off in terms of cost.

The ML3 on Librarians is 25, yeah. GM's can't go to ML3. Most GK's don't think GM status is worth it though. We use Libby HQ's cause they're cheap and the huge cost of everything else in the army requires us to skrimp. Draigo is worth 245 for 2 reasons: Eternal Warrior and a Storm Shield. Voldus will just get insta-deathed under a S8 pie plate like a GM would.

Grandmasters in general won't be worth much until Riptides become more costly to field. That said, I'm merely defending Voldus' price point saying it isn't far off from what you'd expect.

Of course the generic Librarian is better but oh well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thing I just thought of: GW redid the profiles for Techmarines for everyone else outside Grey Knights. Maybe that's something we can expect here? Just a hunch.

Daemons are come the Apocalypse for Fallen. Seems like a good indication that they arent very fallen per se...

Sorry, I might have missed something that's easily explained, but why are the Fallen fine with CSM but not daemons?

the same reason why they are good with necrons but not tau

Because you can be a traitor (which CSM could represent) without being a muthafkippin' Daemon I guess.

Aren't daemons just extreme traitors though?

Though I think Voldus is over-costed, his model is great and is exactly the load-out I wanted for my new GK force with a ML3 Libby with DH.

one thing i always wanted to know

why does Roboute have green leafs on his head, reminds me of Julius Ceasar

LightKing wrote:
Is this fan art or official art?

I dunno. But it looks nice and well-done. Not to mention, just plain damned cool.


I expect Matt Ward will have this painted on the side of his house as a giant mural.

The Fallen evidently have an agenda, and that agenda means they are willing to work with chaos or the imperium, whoever can best facilitate them to accomplish that agenda with them at that time.

There is also the matter that the Dark Angels are hunting after them, and a nice big chaos force may be the perfect road block to cover their escape over the mismanaged and under equipped local PDF.

Please don't post and repost and then quote the same, large, image, over and over, it's poor forum etiquette at best, spam at worst. Please use spoilers or remove the [img] tags from quotes.

Why do people treat Cypher like he is one individual

i like to think "Cypher" is a moniker that many fallen angels since the heresy have held, eventually being passed on?

or is it confirmed that its just one guy?