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I like the Ultramarines and I like Guilliman as a primarch. But I don't think they should be bringing back any of the primarchs as characters for the current game. The game should be about the lowly squads of troops, not bigger and larger vehicles, creatures, monsters or characters. Unfortunately the game has been going that way for awhile. I also don't think Guilliman or any of the primarchs would get involved in a battle of the tabletop size. They should be back behind the lines looking at the grand strategy, not shooting or hacking some unit. The only way they should be involved in the fighting is if their was an attack on their command center or if they really screwed up and their forces were overrun.

 davou wrote:
I dont hate the smurfs.... But Smurf.... Smurrfy SmuRF SMUFT ROWBOAT GIRLYSMIRF REEEEEEEEE

Alas: the Blue Rage has claimed him. Contact Brother Gargamel, we must make him ready for the death company.

bbekins wrote:
I like the Ultramarines and I like Guilliman as a primarch. But I don't think they should be bringing back any of the primarchs as characters for the current game. The game should be about the lowly squads of troops, not bigger and larger vehicles, creatures, monsters or characters. Unfortunately the game has been going that way for awhile. I also don't think Guilliman or any of the primarchs would get involved in a battle of the tabletop size. They should be back behind the lines looking at the grand strategy, not shooting or hacking some unit. The only way they should be involved in the fighting is if their was an attack on their command center or if they really screwed up and their forces were overrun.

Like, say, if the 13th Black Crusade was banging on Ultramar's door and the fighting went as far as the very door to Guilliman's stasis chamber?

Because that's the rumor of what happened before RG woke up to kick ass and chew bubblegum (and in the grim, dark future, there is no bubblegum).

That would be a reason for Guilliman to return. But its not a reason for GW to make a figure and rules for people to use him as a character in their game.

bbekins wrote:
That would be a reason for Guilliman to return. But its not a reason for GW to make a figure and rules for people to use him as a character in their game.

I think of it like I think of the inclusion of Artillery - if the enemy is close enough that they need to be represented as a model rather than Large Blasts of Death that you call in from afar, SOMETHING is fethed up with your battle plan. That doesn't mean Artillery wouldn't have a place in the 40k tabletop, since we're dealing with all sorts of scenarios that can include major feth-ups - including, but not limited to, the situation I described above, and the situations you yourself described initially, for the inclusion of a Primarch like RG (editted for clarity).

Also, RG is the only loyalist Primarch known to be around - his presence on a battlefield may well be worth more now for symbolism/morale purposes, despite the fact that his expertise is more towards the side of logistics.

Ginjitzu wrote:Anyone else find his model kind of... derpy?

It seems like that with a lot of GW models lately. Thing is, no matter how derpy they look from the beginning, they grow on you or the worst, look ok because you get use to it. Even the Taurox doesn't look so horrible as it once did before.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Its going to shift the focus even more on super powered character and its going to suck

Fully agree. I love 40k for the setting and the factions that inhabit the universe. The larger than life characters never appealed to me because they often hog the spotlight and diminish the grimdark aspect of the setting (kinda hard to be grim dark when there are heros with plot armor).

This. I find all these superpowered characters frankly tedious.

The heroes of the Imperium should be the billions of low-level humans (space marines included) that face off daily against the unimaginable horrors of the galaxy, and through sheer grit and determination achieve victory (or don't, as the case may be).

It's a very relatable struggle, and genuinely feels very epic. A very compelling backdrop against which to tell your story.

Compare that to Mr Skipped-Leg-Day towering above everyone else with his flaming Emperor-sword. Despite everything about him being more, he feels considerably less epic. That's because 'epic' doesn't mean 'massive flaming sword'. Epic means 'little man struggles against cosmic terror, emerging victorious despite the odds'.

With that as a backdrop, I'm perfectly happy with Chaos having Daemon Primarchs and the Imperium not. It actually puts the struggle into the Imperium's fight.

Saying that, I was equally concerned about the Eldar Triumvirate, although for different reasons. I was actually pleasantly surprised with how they handled it. No forced merging of factions, plenty of doors open to do what you want with your armies. Yet to see how the actual story unfolds, but from the feel of it it actually adds to the setting, rather than detracting. Roll with the changes, as Unusual Suspect suggests

Unfortunately the release of Guilliman feels a step further than that, but I'm still reserving judgement until the actual story pans out. There's scope for some really interesting and unexpected things to happen, but if it's just 'Guilliman returns and kicks Chaos' ass!' then that will be very disappointing. They've just actually succeeded in making Chaos feel like an actual threat (destroying Cadia and Fenris). It'd be a shame if they threw that away.

See, what you've done wrong here is mistake Guilliman for the protagonist.

No, you see, Abaddon is the 'little' man struggling against the against the cosmic terror of the autocratic Emperor and his monstrous 'primarch', and, against all odds, perhaps he'll be victorious and forge an diabolic empire a-new.

It's irrelevant to me. I'm never likely to fight a battle that requires a Primarch to be present.

 mrhappyface wrote:
IMO there could have been far better returns: Russ bursts forth from the warp when Magnus was fighting on Fenris, Trazyn could have released Dorn upon Cadia in an attempt to prevent it's fall, the survivors of Cadia could have found Khan in the webway, etc. I think it's really sloppy that Cawl just happened to have a cure for the corrupted wound of Guilliman's slit throat, that a Daemon Primarch had dealt him! Where had Cawl been hiding this technology for the last several thousand years?

The only thing that could make up for this is if the poisoned blades of Fulgrim had partially corrupted Rupert and he will unintentially do something in the campaign that dooms the Imperium.

If there was any hope of ever bringing Guilliman back, why wasnt his sleeping corpse a target for the forces of chaos. You are telling me the word bearers legion has just been sitting around for 10,000 years ignoring him?

 Exergy wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
IMO there could have been far better returns: Russ bursts forth from the warp when Magnus was fighting on Fenris, Trazyn could have released Dorn upon Cadia in an attempt to prevent it's fall, the survivors of Cadia could have found Khan in the webway, etc. I think it's really sloppy that Cawl just happened to have a cure for the corrupted wound of Guilliman's slit throat, that a Daemon Primarch had dealt him! Where had Cawl been hiding this technology for the last several thousand years?

The only thing that could make up for this is if the poisoned blades of Fulgrim had partially corrupted Rupert and he will unintentially do something in the campaign that dooms the Imperium.

If there was any hope of ever bringing Guilliman back, why wasnt his sleeping corpse a target for the forces of chaos. You are telling me the word bearers legion has just been sitting around for 10,000 years ignoring him?

Considering that's (do feth-all) what Lorgar has done across all editions... yes.

 Galef wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:

Spoiler:

 Galef wrote:

As a Loyalist model, sure. As a Chaos Space marine Daemon Prince, it actually looks pretty cool.

Seriously, dude looks like he's in Thousand son armour:

... Chaos Space marine Daemon Prince... in Thousand son armour...

Yeah but, is that what they were going for? I mean didn't they just have one of those like, 2 months ago?

Magnus is a T7 Daemon Primarch and is about as tall as an Imperial Knight. Daemon PRINCES are only T5 and are only about as big as Dreadnaughts.
Hence, I suspect they're will be tons of Gilliam DP conversions in the near future.

-

He is just wildly out of proportion. He looks like he is going to tower over Abbadon, who is wearing TDA and weidling Horus's Talon.

 Exergy wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
IMO there could have been far better returns: Russ bursts forth from the warp when Magnus was fighting on Fenris, Trazyn could have released Dorn upon Cadia in an attempt to prevent it's fall, the survivors of Cadia could have found Khan in the webway, etc. I think it's really sloppy that Cawl just happened to have a cure for the corrupted wound of Guilliman's slit throat, that a Daemon Primarch had dealt him! Where had Cawl been hiding this technology for the last several thousand years?

The only thing that could make up for this is if the poisoned blades of Fulgrim had partially corrupted Rupert and he will unintentially do something in the campaign that dooms the Imperium.

If there was any hope of ever bringing Guilliman back, why wasnt his sleeping corpse a target for the forces of chaos. You are telling me the word bearers legion has just been sitting around for 10,000 years ignoring him?

I don't know why this was directed at my post but yes: Logar has been sat on his Daemon planet for 10,000 years, presumeably planning something.

Ok I do like the model don't know why but I do and I hate ultra smurfs. I think if the new edition of 40k ends up more like 30k it will be ok for these guys to come back.

I do get the feeling that the new 40k will head in the 30k direction just by the releases of the traitor legions book giving the army fluff rules reason for different legeions.

I am so think that there may be alot more condensing of factions eldar all under one banner imperial force under one banner no more allies in a sense but mixed army's being part of the rules rather than the tact on rules of allies we have now basicly I think the way aos has went with order, destruction and so on.

Like choas deamons, marines and cultists all in one (reason I say cultists is you so know with the success of the g cults they will end up getting there day).

nareik wrote:

Spoiler:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Its going to shift the focus even more on super powered character and its going to suck

Fully agree. I love 40k for the setting and the factions that inhabit the universe. The larger than life characters never appealed to me because they often hog the spotlight and diminish the grimdark aspect of the setting (kinda hard to be grim dark when there are heros with plot armor).

This. I find all these superpowered characters frankly tedious.

The heroes of the Imperium should be the billions of low-level humans (space marines included) that face off daily against the unimaginable horrors of the galaxy, and through sheer grit and determination achieve victory (or don't, as the case may be).

It's a very relatable struggle, and genuinely feels very epic. A very compelling backdrop against which to tell your story.

Compare that to Mr Skipped-Leg-Day towering above everyone else with his flaming Emperor-sword. Despite everything about him being more, he feels considerably less epic. That's because 'epic' doesn't mean 'massive flaming sword'. Epic means 'little man struggles against cosmic terror, emerging victorious despite the odds'.

With that as a backdrop, I'm perfectly happy with Chaos having Daemon Primarchs and the Imperium not. It actually puts the struggle into the Imperium's fight.

Saying that, I was equally concerned about the Eldar Triumvirate, although for different reasons. I was actually pleasantly surprised with how they handled it. No forced merging of factions, plenty of doors open to do what you want with your armies. Yet to see how the actual story unfolds, but from the feel of it it actually adds to the setting, rather than detracting. Roll with the changes, as Unusual Suspect suggests

Unfortunately the release of Guilliman feels a step further than that, but I'm still reserving judgement until the actual story pans out. There's scope for some really interesting and unexpected things to happen, but if it's just 'Guilliman returns and kicks Chaos' ass!' then that will be very disappointing. They've just actually succeeded in making Chaos feel like an actual threat (destroying Cadia and Fenris). It'd be a shame if they threw that away.

See, what you've done wrong here is mistake Guilliman for the protagonist.

No, you see, Abaddon is the 'little' man struggling against the against the cosmic terror of the autocratic Emperor and his monstrous 'primarch', and, against all odds, perhaps he'll be victorious and forge an diabolic empire a-new.

You beautiful person! I think you may have just fixed this for me

It's pretty much Paradise Lost, no?

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
IMO there could have been far better returns: Russ bursts forth from the warp when Magnus was fighting on Fenris, Trazyn could have released Dorn upon Cadia in an attempt to prevent it's fall, the survivors of Cadia could have found Khan in the webway, etc. I think it's really sloppy that Cawl just happened to have a cure for the corrupted wound of Guilliman's slit throat, that a Daemon Primarch had dealt him! Where had Cawl been hiding this technology for the last several thousand years?

The only thing that could make up for this is if the poisoned blades of Fulgrim had partially corrupted Rupert and he will unintentially do something in the campaign that dooms the Imperium.

If there was any hope of ever bringing Guilliman back, why wasnt his sleeping corpse a target for the forces of chaos. You are telling me the word bearers legion has just been sitting around for 10,000 years ignoring him?

I don't know why this was directed at my post but yes: Logar has been sat on his Daemon planet for 10,000 years, presumeably planning something.

we dunno if thats the case or if he's been involved in demonic politics, for all we know he's spent the alst 10 thousand years fighting with Belakor over the spotlight

I came here honestly expecting everyone to be excited.

Maybe I'm just excited because I play Ultramarines. I dunno. But this is freaking awesome.

I literally cannot wait.

 Exergy wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
IMO there could have been far better returns: Russ bursts forth from the warp when Magnus was fighting on Fenris, Trazyn could have released Dorn upon Cadia in an attempt to prevent it's fall, the survivors of Cadia could have found Khan in the webway, etc. I think it's really sloppy that Cawl just happened to have a cure for the corrupted wound of Guilliman's slit throat, that a Daemon Primarch had dealt him! Where had Cawl been hiding this technology for the last several thousand years?

The only thing that could make up for this is if the poisoned blades of Fulgrim had partially corrupted Rupert and he will unintentially do something in the campaign that dooms the Imperium.

If there was any hope of ever bringing Guilliman back, why wasnt his sleeping corpse a target for the forces of chaos. You are telling me the word bearers legion has just been sitting around for 10,000 years ignoring him?

LOL I don't think there's a force in the universe strong enough to take Macragge.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Personally I'm not a terribly huge fan of bringing characters like Primarch's into 40k. They were always background figures, somewhat mysterious and unknown in many ways, shrouded in legend and myth.

Making them tabletop units with rules and an actual model and everything takes a lot of that away, and detracts from the characters the 40k setting has been based around forever. It feels like GW has run out of ideas and is reaching for just anything to push out for another monthly release. It also gets into character units that are just so ridiculously powerful that their use seems...obscene, even if the rules aren't necessarily OP.

I have much the same feeling toward the HH stuff in general, but at least there it's in a timeline centered around the actions of these figures, bringing them back for 40k feels...hamfisted.

Now, in some ways, I would not necessarily have been opposed to a 40k "end times" and story reboot where some of these characters could be reintroduced like Age of Sigmar, which would make more sense (albeit handled differently than GW did AoS), but for normal 40k I'm just not a fan.

GW really seems to have just lost its ability to create truly interesting new stuff, with no Priestly or Chambers or the like it really feels like GW is just coasting on material written decades ago and doesn't have the originality to create something truly without it being painfully product oriented or a reimagining of older eras.

Pretty much this, I wish GW would go back to an emphasis on actual armies instead of going for characters that have to constantly one up each other in terms of power.

 Insectum7 wrote:
IIRC Dorn was practically vaporized, and therefore not much of a candidate.

The found his skeletal hand. No word on what happened to the rest of him.

when GW creates new things people bitch whine and moan. see centurions.

BrianDavion wrote:
when GW creates new things people bitch whine and moan. see centurions.

Centurions seem weird to me, Space Marines already have a heavier amoured version of themselves (Terminators) what role do Centurions fulfill that can't be done by Terminators?

Spam grav, obviously.

Cheesecat wrote:Pretty much this, I wish GW would go back to an emphasis on actual armies instead of going for characters that have to constantly one up each other in terms of power.

I'm going to assume you're talking about the lore because most of the complaining I see about overpowered stuff on the tabletop in 40k is about the armies themselves (Eldar, MSU space marines). In the lore, the special characters have always been ridiculously over the top. The entire Armageddon campaign hung on Ghazghkrull being the most ridiculously gifted strategic commander the Orks have ever had, Lord Solar Macharius conquered nearly a thousand worlds in seven years, Lucius the Eternal literally can't die, etc, etc.

A loyalist Primarch coming back doesn't really feel that ridiculous when the Daemon Primarchs are still kicking around. In fact, the Emperor himself could strap into a Golden Throne TItan class walker and Kaldor Draigo would still probably be the most ridiculous character running around the lore.

BrianDavion wrote:we dunno if thats the case or if he's been involved in demonic politics, for all we know he's spent the alst 10 thousand years fighting with Belakor over the spotlight

iirc most of the Daemon Primarchs are just sorta doing nothing on their various daemon worlds. Even if they were focused on the Great Game, it's still odd they don't have more time for fighting the Imperium given it's literally what defined them.

BrianDavion wrote:when GW creates new things people bitch whine and moan. see centurions.

I still hate all the fliers

BrianDavion wrote:
when GW creates new things people bitch whine and moan. see centurions.

Then come the whiners who whine about the whiners, and the circle is completed.

For me the return of Girlyman symbols the end of my armies validation in 40K. As the meta shifts from armies of infantry and tanks to big mary-sue special units and deathstars I, and may others, are questioning our reasons for staying within the game as our armies become less and less relevant in the face of the growing numbers of super units are basically forcing us into irrelevance, especially as the armies with these mary sue monsters still dislike or outright refuse to face the bigger tanks like Shadowswords, or macrocannon bunkers, units that are the only way we can realistically face the big threats.
So to me, Guilliman symbolises the end f 40K and the beginning of the new age of bolter porn.

 Korinov wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
when GW creates new things people bitch whine and moan. see centurions.

Then come the whiners who whine about the whiners, and the circle is completed.

Yes one post is always worth as much as a hundred. Certainly.

Nevertheless, I feel indifferent. At the end of the day I'm fairly positive he'll barely shift ever so slightly the status quo. Not much but enough for a change for those who wanted it.

I'm wary of what GW will do with the story, as they always seem to feth it all up in the end. As a survivor of storm of chaos and WFB, I really just don't trust them to tell a compelling story.

Regarding Guilliman, he was an obvious choice and also the most interesting, besides those that are generally considered truly gone, like sanguinius. He was by far the most human of the primarchs, eminiently practical, annoyingly idealistic despite that, and also the only prim arch apart from Horus supremely capable as both a general and statesman.

I think those expecting him to freak out forget that he is capable of compromise, unlike Dorn, and also that he was one of the few primarchs who actually appreciated his brothers and their legions. He's probably the only primarch capable of garnering the respect of his brothers remaining warriors and their successors.

Also, lets not forget he was absolutely around and a part of the imperium after the battle of terra. Indeed, he is probably the only reason it survived at all. The fact that he was wise enough to lean on the plans of malcador is actually a credit to his character rather than a flaw or shortcoming. I doubt he'd be as shocked by the current state of things as some would think. He knows about chaos, he knows and accepted the original imperial truth was shown to false (or at least not realized yet), and indeed was the quickest to reintroduce the librarius in his own legion with very partial information. One would assume he was involved in the creation of things like the grey knights as well, or at least knew of them.

His breaking up of the legions showed a willingness to make hard choices at need. That he did all this without the actual authority of being emperor, and rather was able to rally even his remaining brothers behind his vision shows a level of personal leadership not seen outside of the emperor or Horus.

Rather than making him boring, I find his character and his sons and successors to be intriguing beacons in an otherwise over the top grim dark setting. Their stubbornness and adherence to an ideal so long and viciously besieged marks them as truly, the Ultra-Marines of the Emperors legions.

Hopefully GW makes it good!

So basically a Mary Sue?

 master of ordinance wrote:
So basically a Mary Sue?

I mean if any character with any thing that makes them better then some other people is a Mary Sue sure. I guess we can say most named characters are Mary Sues then like Creed and Yorick because they are better then their comrades.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
IIRC Dorn was practically vaporized, and therefore not much of a candidate.

The found his skeletal hand. No word on what happened to the rest of him.

Huh, they must have "vagued" it away at some point. Back in the day it was confirmed dead.

Sigh. . .

 master of ordinance wrote:
So basically a Mary Sue?

People throw that word around too much. Mary Sue, in its original context was really bad Star Trek fan fiction that supplanted established characters at their own jobs. Basically anyone who magically wins somehow and has skills that are needed in the moment without any rhyme or reason, often they are the center of attention at all times even when trying to be edgy (ugghh why do these boys always ask me to dances?). Draigo is a good example of this, since he practically has no personality of his own and accomplishes seemingly impossible deeds for no good reason, which is why the internet loves to make him an insane warp dust addict.

Guilliman is not a Mary Sue. He has the abilities of a statesman because he spent his formative years building nations with his father, the King of Macragge. He saw his home planet ravaged by chaos and strife as the result of petty politics and greed and that is why he has become the anal retentive organizer of government paper pushers. He's not perfect and he sticks too much to tradition and frequently treats people who are trying to rise to power like garbage, but has a great respect for the little people who make civilization work. He also waaaay overthinks his tactics and stayed around making sure all of his conquered worlds could sustain themselves, moving at a glacial pace compared to Horus or Russ in the conquest department. Heck, his great achievement of the Codex was generally unpopular and I would assume having the largest legion he wouldn't want to lose them all to chapters but he did it anyway. Hell, he could have simply taken up the mantle of New Emperor and probably gotten away with it if he tried hard enough but his background dictated that he was not a fan of power grabs.

People don't like him because he comes off as a holier than thou type whose worlds are nice and perfect, not realizing he spent more of his time making them that way than running around punching xenos or consorting with chaos nuttiness. If anything his head for supplies and organization make him the eternal enemy of chaos and he wins wars not through the gallantry of his men (which they still have in spades) but by the oldest of mantras "an army travels on its stomach."

Now Calgar and Sicarius, they definitely fit the bill (although some novels have made Sicarius an arrogant jerk so he would be drifting away from that)

If you wanted to save the Imperium Rowboat is the best man for the job. He wants organization, he wants people to be safe and prosperous, he also plans ahead for what happens after the war. He's still a primarch so he's no slouch at close combat either, but he won't be a juggernaut like Russ or Angron. Im sure he will be displeased by the ecclesiarchy (but if I recall he really didnt care much about religion as long as you were pro Emp), but I think he will be more horrorified by the incredible amount of waste in lives that the Imperium engages in on a daily basis.