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 generalchaos34 wrote:

1. People throw that word around too much. Mary Sue,

2. If you wanted to save the Imperium Rowboat is the best man for the job. He wants organization, he wants people to be safe and prosperous, he also plans ahead for what happens after the war. He's still a primarch so he's no slouch at close combat either, but he won't be a juggernaut like Russ or Angron. Im sure he will be displeased by the ecclesiarchy (but if I recall he really didnt care much about religion as long as you were pro Emp), but I think he will be more horrorified by the incredible amount of waste in lives that the Imperium engages in on a daily basis.

1. I 100% agree. People online overuse the term, along with "special snowflake" so much, they have lost their meaning. Also, it is used in the wrong context 82% of the time. That's a FACT. I have charts and diagrams.

2. I know it's a fictional universe, and I'm going to say this even though I am the President of the Rogal Dorn fanclub of Lake County, IL, but Guilliman would be my choice to lead the Imperium in the year 40,000. When you're 3 minutes from midnight of all hell breaking loose, I want a determined, calm, collected mother fether to move those pieces where they need to be and donkey punch old Abbadon back into the Eye of Terror. And send half of the High Lords of Terra with him for good measure!

I don't have a problem with old Stick in the Mud.


Edit: I meant to say Guillimon. Not Dorn.

 kronk wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

1. People throw that word around too much. Mary Sue,

2. If you wanted to save the Imperium Rowboat is the best man for the job. He wants organization, he wants people to be safe and prosperous, he also plans ahead for what happens after the war. He's still a primarch so he's no slouch at close combat either, but he won't be a juggernaut like Russ or Angron. Im sure he will be displeased by the ecclesiarchy (but if I recall he really didnt care much about religion as long as you were pro Emp), but I think he will be more horrorified by the incredible amount of waste in lives that the Imperium engages in on a daily basis.

1. I 100% agree. People online overuse the term, along with "special snowflake" so much, they have lost their meaning. Also, it is used in the wrong context 82% of the time. That's a FACT. I have charts and diagrams.

2. I know it's a fictional universe, and I'm going to say this even though I am the President of the Rogal Dorn fanclub of Lake County, IL, but Dorn would be my choice to lead the Imperium in the year 40,000. When you're 3 minutes from midnight of all hell breaking loose, I want a determined, calm, collected mother fether to move those pieces where they need to be and donkey punch old Abbadon back into the Eye of Terror. And send half of the High Lords of Terra with him for good measure!

I don't have a problem with old Stick in the Mud.

I think that GW didn't pick Rogal Dorn because he'd be too similar to Donald Trump.

Think about it, his strategy for dealing with this crisis most likely would have been to build a giant (and glorious) wall and make the forces of chaos pay for it (in blood).

Lord Kragan wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

1. People throw that word around too much. Mary Sue,

2. If you wanted to save the Imperium Rowboat is the best man for the job. He wants organization, he wants people to be safe and prosperous, he also plans ahead for what happens after the war. He's still a primarch so he's no slouch at close combat either, but he won't be a juggernaut like Russ or Angron. Im sure he will be displeased by the ecclesiarchy (but if I recall he really didnt care much about religion as long as you were pro Emp), but I think he will be more horrorified by the incredible amount of waste in lives that the Imperium engages in on a daily basis.

1. I 100% agree. People online overuse the term, along with "special snowflake" so much, they have lost their meaning. Also, it is used in the wrong context 82% of the time. That's a FACT. I have charts and diagrams.

2. I know it's a fictional universe, and I'm going to say this even though I am the President of the Rogal Dorn fanclub of Lake County, IL, but Dorn would be my choice to lead the Imperium in the year 40,000. When you're 3 minutes from midnight of all hell breaking loose, I want a determined, calm, collected mother fether to move those pieces where they need to be and donkey punch old Abbadon back into the Eye of Terror. And send half of the High Lords of Terra with him for good measure!

I don't have a problem with old Stick in the Mud.

I think that GW didn't pick Rogal Dorn because he'd be too similar to Donald Trump.

Think about it, his strategy for dealing with this crisis most likely would have been to build a giant (and glorious) wall and make the forces of chaos pay.

In a galaxy of Xenophobes, extremists and dictatorships (all in the 'good' factions) I don't think GW would be too bothered about a character resembling a controversial polititian.

 kronk wrote:
2. I know it's a fictional universe, and I'm going to say this even though I am the President of the Rogal Dorn fanclub of Lake County, IL, but Guilliman would be my choice to lead the Imperium in the year 40,000. When you're 3 minutes from midnight of all hell breaking loose, I want a determined, calm, collected mother fether to move those pieces where they need to be and donkey punch old Abbadon back into the Eye of Terror. And send half of the High Lords of Terra with him for good measure!

I don't have a problem with old Stick in the Mud.


Edit: I meant to say Guillimon. Not Dorn.

That's the whole reason I think it would have been better for someone else to show up. Surely it'd be more entertaining for an unpredictable arse kicker to show up instead.

They're going to pull another Vulcan and kill him off without doing anything interesting with him.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
They're going to pull another Vulcan and kill him off without doing anything interesting with him.

He's going to do an Optimus Prime. Get brought back to life and fly on a suicide mission into the Quintessons (okay EoT).

 TheCustomLime wrote:
They're going to pull another Vulcan and kill him off without doing anything interesting with him.

While I think Guilliman being sidelined is at least somewhat probable (eventually), I doubt he'll be killed off permanently - I think banishment/quest to the warp, ala his brother (or to find his brothers) is much more likely, and even getting another wounded-to-the-point-of-death-back-to-the-stasis-chamber-you-go seems more likely than a permakill.

Heck, he could just end up sidelined into being Logician of the Empire, basically glued to his High Lord of Terra seat pushing paper like the premium paper pusher he is, trying (and still failing) to stave off the death of the Imperium for another thousand years (Gotta make sure Ciaphas Cain's timeline is correct, y'know).

Rowboat and his legion therefore are too Noblebright for the setting. That's probably where a lot of rankling comes from; in a universe so grim dark, these guys stand out as the shining sparkly beacons of purity that evero e wishes they themselves could be. The whole better in every way stick the smurfs have is just something people want to break. I don't think that's a bad thing; personally I would prefer if smurfs were made out to be poster boys for imperium but behind the glits and glam, they were fethed up just like everyone else. People could accept that. But they're not. Smurfs and rowboat are the shining light in the darkness and utterly ultra in every way and it just doesn't fit the setting.

Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Rowboat and his legion therefore are too Noblebright for the setting. That's probably where a lot of rankling comes from; in a universe so grim dark, these guys stand out as the shining sparkly beacons of purity that evero e wishes they themselves could be. The whole better in every way stick the smurfs have is just something people want to break. I don't think that's a bad thing; personally I would prefer if smurfs were made out to be poster boys for imperium but behind the glits and glam, they were fethed up just like everyone else. People could accept that. But they're not. Smurfs and rowboat are the shining light in the darkness and utterly ultra in every way and it just doesn't fit the setting.

Grimdark always being grim is as boring as constant noblebright. You need some beacon of hope otherwise the setting devolves into pointless cynicism.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

1. People throw that word around too much. Mary Sue,

2. If you wanted to save the Imperium Rowboat is the best man for the job. He wants organization, he wants people to be safe and prosperous, he also plans ahead for what happens after the war. He's still a primarch so he's no slouch at close combat either, but he won't be a juggernaut like Russ or Angron. Im sure he will be displeased by the ecclesiarchy (but if I recall he really didnt care much about religion as long as you were pro Emp), but I think he will be more horrorified by the incredible amount of waste in lives that the Imperium engages in on a daily basis.

1. I 100% agree. People online overuse the term, along with "special snowflake" so much, they have lost their meaning. Also, it is used in the wrong context 82% of the time. That's a FACT. I have charts and diagrams.

2. I know it's a fictional universe, and I'm going to say this even though I am the President of the Rogal Dorn fanclub of Lake County, IL, but Dorn would be my choice to lead the Imperium in the year 40,000. When you're 3 minutes from midnight of all hell breaking loose, I want a determined, calm, collected mother fether to move those pieces where they need to be and donkey punch old Abbadon back into the Eye of Terror. And send half of the High Lords of Terra with him for good measure!

I don't have a problem with old Stick in the Mud.

I think that GW didn't pick Rogal Dorn because he'd be too similar to Donald Trump.

Think about it, his strategy for dealing with this crisis most likely would have been to build a giant (and glorious) wall and make the forces of chaos pay.

In a galaxy of Xenophobes, extremists and dictatorships (all in the 'good' factions) I don't think GW would be too bothered about a character resembling a controversial polititian.

It was supposed to be a (bad) joke.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
They're going to pull another Vulcan and kill him off without doing anything interesting with him.

While I think Guilliman being sidelined is at least somewhat probable (eventually), I doubt he'll be killed off permanently - I think banishment/quest to the warp, ala his brother (or to find his brothers) is much more likely, and even getting another wounded-to-the-point-of-death-back-to-the-stasis-chamber-you-go seems more likely than a permakill.

Heck, he could just end up sidelined into being Logician of the Empire, basically glued to his High Lord of Terra seat pushing paper like the premium paper pusher he is, trying (and still failing) to stave off the death of the Imperium for another thousand years (Gotta make sure Ciaphas Cain's timeline is correct, y'know).

True, but this is modern GW we are talking about. If a character isn't going to be center stage they have either die horribly or, as you said, vanish into the ether. Guilliman being relegated to being Paper Pusher Primus would be too subtle for them.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

1. People throw that word around too much. Mary Sue,

2. If you wanted to save the Imperium Rowboat is the best man for the job. He wants organization, he wants people to be safe and prosperous, he also plans ahead for what happens after the war. He's still a primarch so he's no slouch at close combat either, but he won't be a juggernaut like Russ or Angron. Im sure he will be displeased by the ecclesiarchy (but if I recall he really didnt care much about religion as long as you were pro Emp), but I think he will be more horrorified by the incredible amount of waste in lives that the Imperium engages in on a daily basis.

1. I 100% agree. People online overuse the term, along with "special snowflake" so much, they have lost their meaning. Also, it is used in the wrong context 82% of the time. That's a FACT. I have charts and diagrams.

2. I know it's a fictional universe, and I'm going to say this even though I am the President of the Rogal Dorn fanclub of Lake County, IL, but Dorn would be my choice to lead the Imperium in the year 40,000. When you're 3 minutes from midnight of all hell breaking loose, I want a determined, calm, collected mother fether to move those pieces where they need to be and donkey punch old Abbadon back into the Eye of Terror. And send half of the High Lords of Terra with him for good measure!

I don't have a problem with old Stick in the Mud.

I think that GW didn't pick Rogal Dorn because he'd be too similar to Donald Trump.

Think about it, his strategy for dealing with this crisis most likely would have been to build a giant (and glorious) wall and make the forces of chaos pay.

In a galaxy of Xenophobes, extremists and dictatorships (all in the 'good' factions) I don't think GW would be too bothered about a character resembling a controversial polititian.

It was supposed to be a (bad) joke.

Likewise.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Rowboat and his legion therefore are too Noblebright for the setting. That's probably where a lot of rankling comes from; in a universe so grim dark, these guys stand out as the shining sparkly beacons of purity that evero e wishes they themselves could be. The whole better in every way stick the smurfs have is just something people want to break. I don't think that's a bad thing; personally I would prefer if smurfs were made out to be poster boys for imperium but behind the glits and glam, they were fethed up just like everyone else. People could accept that. But they're not. Smurfs and rowboat are the shining light in the darkness and utterly ultra in every way and it just doesn't fit the setting.

Grimdark always being grim is as boring as constant noblebright. You need some beacon of hope otherwise the setting devolves into pointless cynicism.

Like DakkaDakka!

Hey-oh!

Giantwalkingchair wrote:Rowboat and his legion therefore are too Noblebright for the setting. That's probably where a lot of rankling comes from; in a universe so grim dark, these guys stand out as the shining sparkly beacons of purity that evero e wishes they themselves could be. The whole better in every way stick the smurfs have is just something people want to break. I don't think that's a bad thing; personally I would prefer if smurfs were made out to be poster boys for imperium but behind the glits and glam, they were fethed up just like everyone else. People could accept that. But they're not. Smurfs and rowboat are the shining light in the darkness and utterly ultra in every way and it just doesn't fit the setting.

The Ultramarines have been around for longer than most of the current setting.

The Ultramarines, post the 5th edition travesty, are hardly what you describe. They are:

Unspecialised - they have no real expertise in a single skill, preferring equal temperance, unlike every other first founder.
Indoctrinated - they blindly follow the Codex, even leading to some massive battlefield losses when faced with the unknown (the Invasions of Macragge - in Tyranid and Chaos flavours)
Average - They have no SUPAR SEEECRET SECREET SHHHH, which I feel is for the better. It's better when such secrets are kept for a minority. Otherwise, it loses it's novelty.

No-one wishes they were the Ultramarines. The whole "spiritual liege" stuff was left behind two editions ago. The Blood Angels already fill the role of Perfect Sons with the SUPAR SEEECRET SECREET SHHHH - hell, their Primarch has a holiday named after him in the Imperium, and is widely regarded as the most revered Primarch. Barring their flaw, they are the most Noblebright SM chapter. If the UM had a flaw, they would step on the BA's toes.

If we're looking at another Noblebright Chapter, look no further than the Space Wolves. They have barely any lasting consequences to their losses and actions, actively rebelling against the Inquisition and suffering no rebuttal. The ONLY thing they've actually suffered from was the Wrath of Magnus, which even then, they only survive via plot armour.
The Ultramarines, on the other hand, get away with nothing so egregarious. The Battle of Macragge kills many planets in the system, wipes out the First Company, and prompts serious re-organisation of the Chapter. They adapt and move past their near defeat, learning from it.

Being vaguely intelligent is not Noblebright. Being senselessly violent and stupid isn't Grimdark. The most consistent definition of Grimdarkness is that of grim reality. Of all the Space Marine Chapters, the Ultramarines are very realistic. Guilliman is the only sensible Primarch, the only one who focuses on actual development, and his Legion, after realising their own hubris from their dogged devotion to the Codex, begin to re-evaluate it's teachings and adapt. They're sensible. If sensibility is Noblebright, then I'm afraid I don't see it.

I would find it extremely funny if Roboute Guilliman came back but there was something "off" about him and he was acting in a manner completely at odds with how he has been described in the fluff and how his chapter operates currently, putting the Ultramarines in a really awkward position.

RG: "Here's the plan: we're going to do a whole lot of drugs, form up into one great howling mob and run down there and punch them to death."
RG: "Then we'll eat their brains."
SM Captain: "...In the Codex Astartes it is written that--"
RG: "I KNOW WHAT IT SAYS I FETHING WROTE IT THIS TIME WE'RE GOING WITH THE DRUGS AND BRAINS PLAN!"
RG: *twitches and spasms uncontrollably for half a minute*
RG: "Right... okay... fetch me Calgar and some tools, I'm going to need more fists for all this punching."
SM Captain: *cautiously backs out of the room*

This would actually be a horrible decision and I hope GW doesn't do something like it, but it would be funny.

Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Rowboat and his legion therefore are too Noblebright for the setting. That's probably where a lot of rankling comes from; in a universe so grim dark, these guys stand out as the shining sparkly beacons of purity that evero e wishes they themselves could be. The whole better in every way stick the smurfs have is just something people want to break. I don't think that's a bad thing; personally I would prefer if smurfs were made out to be poster boys for imperium but behind the glits and glam, they were fethed up just like everyone else. People could accept that. But they're not. Smurfs and rowboat are the shining light in the darkness and utterly ultra in every way and it just doesn't fit the setting.

This. Absolutely this. It's the realisation that they're actually sneaky b*stard hypocrites that broke up the legions all the while building their own private empire and surrounding themselves with the little private empires of their loyal successors.

It's the fact that they're actually sneaky devious little sods with this outer sheen of glamourous poster-boys that makes me warm to Ultramarines. Agreed they should really play that up more TBH.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Grimdark always being grim is as boring as constant noblebright. You need some beacon of hope otherwise the setting devolves into pointless cynicism.

I don't buy that. Grimdark is just a state of being. By itself it's neither interesting or not. Same with noblebright.

It's nuance that makes things interesting.

The idea that the Ultras are actually sneaky gits.
The idea that the Dark Eldar harp on about how independent and free they are to make their own choices and live how they want, but in fact their lives are as locked into a path as the Craftworlders they deride.
The idea that the Craftworlders think they've cheated Slaanesh, but if you think about it their focus on perfecting each aspect of their life in turn most likely feeds her just as much as the DEldar.
The idea that Magnus' fall from grace was a result of a colossal misunderstanding, rather than him just being evil.
The idea that no-one really knows what Cypher's motives are. Does he want to kill the Emperor or save him? Even if he wants to save the emperor by killing him, does he know that the sword he carries is one of the few relics in the universe capable of outright killing the Emperor so he can't regenerate?
The idea that the Tau aren't as shiny and noblebright as they once appeared, and that underneath their gleaming exterior is a rotting autocracy every bit as socially unjust as the Imperium.

In fact, I wish they'd go further.

How about bringing some nuance to Chaos' story? Rather than them being traitors, or duped/manipulated by the Chaos Gods, how about add in the possibility that Horus might have been right about the whole Heresy thing. Just the slightest possible suggestion that the Emperor might not have had humanity's best interests in mind, and Horus might just have possibly been acting in the right.

How about the notion that the Necrons might have themselves been creations/early experiments of the Old Ones, completely altering the dynamic between them, the Old Ones and the Eldar from one of stroppy competitors to sentient beings that rebelled against being kept as lab-rats, and furious that their creators made the Eldar so physically perfect while they were suffering.

How about any number of really cool things you can do with the 40k fluff while still keeping it fitting with the grimdark aesthetic?

See, all of those things are really, really interesting things to explore and not a single one needs to be noblebright. By all means have some noblebright to contrast the grimdark, but that needs to be done in a microcosm. Noblebright in the 40k universe needs to be presented as one individual heroic spirit struggling in vain against the oppressive lead weight of grimdark presented in the 40k universe.

Having that noblebright as a goddamn Primarch and his legion of blue goody-two-shoes just doesn't fit.

Hopefully they go all out on the whole 'Guilliman has to come to terms with what the Imperium, and his chapter, have become' and not just wuss-out and make it all about 'guys, you don't need to follow the codex to the letter, jeez'.

Make it so that the Ultras (and Guilliman while you're at it) are just as deeply flawed as the rest of the entire 40k universe. 'Entirely grimdark' is not the same as 'grimderp', which is grimdark for grimdark's sake without adding nuance.

re the ultramarines being blindly in doctrinated to the point they suffer loses they didn't need to, we don't see much evidance of that. the UMs did pretty well against the 'nids when you compare them to everyone else. one thing to remember is the codex isn't just a book of tactics, I suspect thats not the "most important" part of the codex, and that the bits the UMs follow the most religiously are orginizational. when the Razorback was described as being newer and thus not fully accepted by some conservitive chapters, I always read that as Ultramarines and other "super codex adherant chapters"

Ynneadwraith - you point rests on the Ultramarines having a pocket empire and nearly a full legion at their command, despite ordering others not to do so.

Where's the proof of this?

Ultramar, which is a holding of several systems, is not prohibited by the codex. No-one else was forced to give up their personal empires, mostly because Guilliman's logistical expertise allowed him to create Ultramar. If he had asked the Fists to break up the Phalanx, or the Dark Angels the Rock, that would support your statement. But no other Legion gave up their own domain because they simply didn't have one on the scale of Ultramar. Hell, Ultramar is no more a personal Empire than Nocturne is for the Salamanders, or the Phalanx for the Fists. In fact, it supports the Imperium more than any other chapter homeworld: it musters both Astartes and Guardsmen, despite only needing to tithe Astartes, and boasts a strong agricultural sector.
I wasn't aware being efficient was equivalent to having a pocket empire.
Even so, the Ultramarines lost the most from the deal. They were the largest Legion, with the largest Empire (500 worlds) - all gone by their own primarch's order.

And onto the splitting of the Legion: where does it say that the Ultramarines hold full dominion over their successors, who would follow them in rebellion? Sure, we have a few who are indicated to be of that persuasion (Genesis Chapter), but there are plenty with less ties to Guilliman (Mortifactors), and the vast majority are just as specified as any other successor. Unless every other successor is fanatically loyal to their progenitor?

Speaking of other Chapters being loyal to their progenitor, let's take a look at the Dark Angels, who are confirmed to have a contingency plan to form to Legion strength. They, and their first successors, are all still united, in secret.
Or the Imperial Fists, who have the Last Wall protocol.
Or the Blood Angels, who called their successors to Baal on the onslaught of Leviathan.

Funnily enough, the Ultramarines have never done something like this, despite what you suggest. There's no evidence in current lore they have anything near a Legion in disguise.

 Asmodai wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Its going to shift the focus even more on super powered character and its going to suck

Fully agree. I love 40k for the setting and the factions that inhabit the universe. The larger than life characters never appealed to me because they often hog the spotlight and diminish the grimdark aspect of the setting (kinda hard to be grim dark when there are heros with plot armor).

I agree. I find they also diminish the tactical nature of a skirmish game. Guilliman isn't going to be looking for a wall to crouch behind to avoid enemy fire. There's a lot more interesting tactical decisions to be made when the game is a some infantry squads with a couple tanks providing cover and supporting fire than when it's semi-invincible demi-gods walking up to the middle of the table to slug it out.

What game have you been playing? 40k hasn't been skirmish for a good few years now. At least if all the whining on the internet is anything to go by. And my own experience of playing a game of two warlord titans vs ongoing reserves of 20 IKs and a bunch if super heavies + 60 LRs. Not a normal match up, I'll admit, but not one that would be playable in a skirmish game. And my other anecdotal evidence, which is anecdotal and therefore not worth too much.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
By all means have some noblebright to contrast the grimdark, but that needs to be done in a microcosm. Noblebright in the 40k universe needs to be presented as one individual heroic spirit struggling in vain against the oppressive lead weight of grimdark presented in the 40k universe.

I like this. I also like it when people try to be noblebright, but they end up doing more harm than good.

Yeah, it's cynical, but I enjoy 40k as an extremely cynical universe where it isn't good guys vs bad guys but bad guys vs worse guys. The "good" guys need to do such horrible things in order to survive that they might not be any better than the "bad" guys (and the bad guys need something to make them more than mustache-twirlers).

I also enjoy the idea of humanity as a bunch of ignorant savages doing the best they can with extremely dangerous technology that they don't understand in a galaxy full of horrifying monsters.

Maybe I enjoy all the grimdark so much because I'm a techno-optimist when it comes to the real world.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Ynneadwraith - you point rests on the Ultramarines having a pocket empire and nearly a full legion at their command, despite ordering others not to do so.

Where's the proof of this?

Ultramar, which is a holding of several systems, is not prohibited by the codex. No-one else was forced to give up their personal empires, mostly because Guilliman's logistical expertise allowed him to create Ultramar. If he had asked the Fists to break up the Phalanx, or the Dark Angels the Rock, that would support your statement. But no other Legion gave up their own domain because they simply didn't have one on the scale of Ultramar. Hell, Ultramar is no more a personal Empire than Nocturne is for the Salamanders, or the Phalanx for the Fists. In fact, it supports the Imperium more than any other chapter homeworld: it musters both Astartes and Guardsmen, despite only needing to tithe Astartes, and boasts a strong agricultural sector.
I wasn't aware being efficient was equivalent to having a pocket empire.
Even so, the Ultramarines lost the most from the deal. They were the largest Legion, with the largest Empire (500 worlds) - all gone by their own primarch's order.

And onto the splitting of the Legion: where does it say that the Ultramarines hold full dominion over their successors, who would follow them in rebellion? Sure, we have a few who are indicated to be of that persuasion (Genesis Chapter), but there are plenty with less ties to Guilliman (Mortifactors), and the vast majority are just as specified as any other successor. Unless every other successor is fanatically loyal to their progenitor?

Speaking of other Chapters being loyal to their progenitor, let's take a look at the Dark Angels, who are confirmed to have a contingency plan to form to Legion strength. They, and their first successors, are all still united, in secret.
Or the Imperial Fists, who have the Last Wall protocol.
Or the Blood Angels, who called their successors to Baal on the onslaught of Leviathan.

Funnily enough, the Ultramarines have never done something like this, despite what you suggest. There's no evidence in current lore they have anything near a Legion in disguise.

even though Ultramar was under dire threat and nearly destroyed by the tyranids. which was at least a threat on par with Levithan. (I'd argue perceptionally more so as little was known about the 'nids in comparison)

@Ynnead

I understand what you are saying and I mostly agree. But I think a faction that is more noblebright than others is fine. The Ultramarines are a beacon of hope in a vast void of darkness.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

In fact, I wish they'd go further.

How about bringing some nuance to Chaos' story? Rather than them being traitors, or duped/manipulated by the Chaos Gods, how about add in the possibility that Horus might have been right about the whole Heresy thing. Just the slightest possible suggestion that the Emperor might not have had humanity's best interests in mind, and Horus might just have possibly been acting in the right.

In there here and now, I wish they would flesh out a few more chaos characters. These end of times stories basically have abby and belakor who dont have much depth to begin with, and then some redshirts with no depth at all. We know the IoM is getting Cawl, Greyfaux, some grey knight grandmaster, and then celestine and rowboat getting much more depth. Trazyn is also being fleshed out. I havent read much about the Eldar jokers, but they seem to be rather shallow from what I have seen.

It's depressing.

It would be neat if they added a "Battle of Legends" style game type, which featured only units of a certain scale, and specific units in support.

Also from a lore perspective this actually makes sense, and also, Cadia falling is important.

I think it's yet another symptom of the dumbing down of 40k.

It started with the pointless and unnecessary Heresy series which pulls back the cloak of Heresy mythos to show a pantheon of badly written school children squabbling. Then the rules and "herp-derp buy this and you'll win" monsters and formations. Now the Grim Dark setting becomes an episode of Mighty Morphing Power Rangers - lots of brightly coloured super goodies and their improbably large war machines fighting rubber monsters with horns for nipples.

Yay! Go Super Mega Marines!

So, the last book in december is going to be Roboute, Lion, Russ, Vulkan and Ferrus Reborn holding off until Dorn, the Khan, The Sanguinor come to break Abaddons fleet, right?

All leading up to a climactic dual between Draigo and Abaddon ascended, right?

On a more serious note, i think the Lion will be the Loyalist that goes renegade. Especially with Cypher appearing to help out Team Loyalist (Roboute + Celestine and Co.). It could be that his Chapter/Legion force him into a corner with their fanatic focus on the Fallen (Roboute coming under attack by Dark Angels and the DA being declared renegades?).

Itll be interesting to see, nonetheless.

I rank it up there with perpetuals.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
By all means have some noblebright to contrast the grimdark, but that needs to be done in a microcosm. Noblebright in the 40k universe needs to be presented as one individual heroic spirit struggling in vain against the oppressive lead weight of grimdark presented in the 40k universe.

I like this. I also like it when people try to be noblebright, but they end up doing more harm than good.

Yeah, it's cynical, but I enjoy 40k as an extremely cynical universe where it isn't good guys vs bad guys but bad guys vs worse guys. The "good" guys need to do such horrible things in order to survive that they might not be any better than the "bad" guys (and the bad guys need something to make them more than mustache-twirlers).

I also enjoy the idea of humanity as a bunch of ignorant savages doing the best they can with extremely dangerous technology that they don't understand in a galaxy full of horrifying monsters.

Maybe I enjoy all the grimdark so much because I'm a techno-optimist when it comes to the real world.

Thanks man and yeah that's exactly what I find so refreshing about the 40k universe. Everywhere you look in most IPs it's frighteningly obvious who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. In 40k, no-ones' the good guy. The universe is too dangerous to afford the luxury of a moral high ground. Each faction is struggling just to survive.

It's not unique to the 40k universe, but it is one of the cornerstones of its appeal. I sincerely hope that that's remembered amidst all these releases...

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Ynneadwraith - you point rests on the Ultramarines having a pocket empire and nearly a full legion at their command, despite ordering others not to do so.

Where's the proof of this?

Spoiler:

Ultramar, which is a holding of several systems, is not prohibited by the codex. No-one else was forced to give up their personal empires, mostly because Guilliman's logistical expertise allowed him to create Ultramar. If he had asked the Fists to break up the Phalanx, or the Dark Angels the Rock, that would support your statement. But no other Legion gave up their own domain because they simply didn't have one on the scale of Ultramar. Hell, Ultramar is no more a personal Empire than Nocturne is for the Salamanders, or the Phalanx for the Fists. In fact, it supports the Imperium more than any other chapter homeworld: it musters both Astartes and Guardsmen, despite only needing to tithe Astartes, and boasts a strong agricultural sector.
I wasn't aware being efficient was equivalent to having a pocket empire.
Even so, the Ultramarines lost the most from the deal. They were the largest Legion, with the largest Empire (500 worlds) - all gone by their own primarch's order.

And onto the splitting of the Legion: where does it say that the Ultramarines hold full dominion over their successors, who would follow them in rebellion? Sure, we have a few who are indicated to be of that persuasion (Genesis Chapter), but there are plenty with less ties to Guilliman (Mortifactors), and the vast majority are just as specified as any other successor. Unless every other successor is fanatically loyal to their progenitor?

Speaking of other Chapters being loyal to their progenitor, let's take a look at the Dark Angels, who are confirmed to have a contingency plan to form to Legion strength. They, and their first successors, are all still united, in secret.
Or the Imperial Fists, who have the Last Wall protocol.
Or the Blood Angels, who called their successors to Baal on the onslaught of Leviathan.

Funnily enough, the Ultramarines have never done something like this, despite what you suggest. There's no evidence in current lore they have anything near a Legion in disguise.

Haha! Like all the best conspiracy theories it's circumstantial at best.

The main point that is actually demonstrable is the personal armies thing.

Part of Guilliman's restructuring of the Imperium revolved around splitting up the commands of the Marines, the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy so no one person had the resources to invade systems on their own in the event of a rebellion. It makes excellent sense, and was a very shrewd decision in the wake of the Heresy.

For most Legions, they have their handful of recruiting worlds and a light PDF compliment that answers to the planetary governor. However, the Ultramarines have the PDF of an entire sector answering to the sector governor...who lo and behold just so happens to be the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines! What a coincidence!

Everything else on top of that is just suspicious coincidences. Rather than citing their successor chapters as and where the demand requires, they have a habit of citing them on the fringes of the Ultramar system themselves. In the Codex it's strongly implied that these successor chapters still hold a great deal of loyalty towards the Ultramarines.

There's no evidence that the Ultramarines have ever considered rebellion, but it's suspicious that they're one of the very few forces in the Imperium that could legitimately pull it off...

It fits in perfectly with the shrewd political maneuvering expected of Guilliman the Statesman, and gives them a grimdark tinge that helps integrate them better into the wider grimdark of the 40k setting. Plus, it's infinitely more nuanced than the whole 'ultramarines are the gold standard of marines' spiel which is frankly boring more than anything else. No depth to it.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
@Ynnead

I understand what you are saying and I mostly agree. But I think a faction that is more noblebright than others is fine. The Ultramarines are a beacon of hope in a vast void of darkness.

Oh I absolutely agree, but isn't it just so 40k that that beacon of noblebright isn't quite what it seems?

 Exergy wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

In there here and now, I wish they would flesh out a few more chaos characters. These end of times stories basically have abby and belakor who dont have much depth to begin with, and then some redshirts with no depth at all. We know the IoM is getting Cawl, Greyfaux, some grey knight grandmaster, and then celestine and rowboat getting much more depth. Trazyn is also being fleshed out. I havent read much about the Eldar jokers, but they seem to be rather shallow from what I have seen.

It's depressing.

Agreed. Campaign centreing on Cadia and Chaos...no Chaos or Cadian characters so far...

I think they've given a bit more to Abby in the 1st book, but there's still so much potential with Chaos that's completely untapped.

Focus on why these characters are fighting the Imperium (and not just 'because they're eeeevil'). Perhaps they think they're right about their cause, that they're doing it for the good of humanity. The Chaos Gods might be fickle, but at least they reward success. In the Imperium, success is usually rewarded with a short trip from a Commissar.

Perhaps they feel betrayed by the Imperium that they fought so hard to forge. These are the very Marines that created the Imperium in the first place, and because of the actions of a few their Emperor turned their back on them.

Create new characters with these motivations (or others), and really go to town with them there's still time for a Chaos release of course...

Russell's teapot wrote:I think it's yet another symptom of the dumbing down of 40k.

It started with the pointless and unnecessary Heresy series which pulls back the cloak of Heresy mythos to show a pantheon of badly written school children squabbling. Then the rules and "herp-derp buy this and you'll win" monsters and formations. Now the Grim Dark setting becomes an episode of Mighty Morphing Power Rangers - lots of brightly coloured super goodies and their improbably large war machines fighting rubber monsters with horns for nipples.

Yay! Go Super Mega Marines!

I don't mind the silliness too much. Early 40k had Zoats, Squats and Skaven in space, the giant megazord style robots have been around as long as titans have been a thing. Back in 3rd ed. Tau basically just brought anime mecha into the setting. The lore for 40k almost became a parody of itself during 5th ed because the writers were taking it seriously. I'd take goofy dwarfs in spess any day over Blood Angels bro-fisting Necrons and Grey Knights drenched in the blood of SoB traversing the warp forever killing just everything because they're so cool.


I do agree about the Horus Heresy though, it was essentially the War in Heaven and I'd be happier not knowing the finer details of what exactly happened during it. Still happy Forgeworld made the models though and I've been wanting plastic MKIII armour forever

TheCustomLime wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
They're going to pull another Vulcan and kill him off without doing anything interesting with him.

While I think Guilliman being sidelined is at least somewhat probable (eventually), I doubt he'll be killed off permanently - I think banishment/quest to the warp, ala his brother (or to find his brothers) is much more likely, and even getting another wounded-to-the-point-of-death-back-to-the-stasis-chamber-you-go seems more likely than a permakill.

Heck, he could just end up sidelined into being Logician of the Empire, basically glued to his High Lord of Terra seat pushing paper like the premium paper pusher he is, trying (and still failing) to stave off the death of the Imperium for another thousand years (Gotta make sure Ciaphas Cain's timeline is correct, y'know).

True, but this is modern GW we are talking about. If a character isn't going to be center stage they have either die horribly or, as you said, vanish into the ether. Guilliman being relegated to being Paper Pusher Primus would be too subtle for them.

Is Guilliman necessarily going to be sidelined or killed off? The galaxy is probably big enough for him to be running around doing stuff without tipping the balance completely in the Imperium's favour. There's loads of Daemon Princes and Necron Lords as old as time, etc, who probably just as powerful, if not more so, and they aren't exactly stomping the galaxy flat.

In any case the Imperium is unlikely to become an unstoppable juggernaught just because Guilliman's back. Regardless of his stance on the current state of the Imperium, his return is going to cause internal friction because it'll disrupt the balance of power. Afterall, the Imperium is huge and full of infighting.

 nurgle5 wrote:

In any case the Imperium is unlikely to become an unstoppable juggernaught just because Guilliman's back.

I think this is an important point. At a certain point we have to remember that Guilliman is still just one man. Yes, he may be a Primarch,and yes he may be the lord of Ultramar, but ultimately I dont think he will be capable of having a massive influence on the Imperium. He can only be in one place at a time, and the Imperium is too vast to feel the impact of one person.