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 xttz wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:
I think something people are overlooking in the price discussion is that this is not a normal starter set, in the sense that it's not a collection of easy-to-build models specifically created for a huge box set expected to sell tons of copies. This is a bundle of separate products, and should be compared to other bundles such as the Battleforces, which generally have a savings of around 30% compared to buying the products separately.

How about Kill Team? It's also a bundle with a ruleset. So is the Renegade game.

Renegade only comes with the free 12-page core rules plus some custom ones for Knight duels. You would need the £35 rulebook separately to play 40k proper.

Not really. Nothing in the big book you need. Fluff? Not required. Don't even own that book

Renegade only comes with the free 12-page core rules plus some custom ones for Knight duels. You would need the £35 rulebook separately to play 40k proper.

Unless you happened to know anyone at all when 8th edition dropped. Then you could pick them up for $10-15 USD. I know several that were given away. Because they were in the box set, and the box set was generally considered a good deal. Unlike this one.

Well I wasn't super enthused before but after finding out the price it's a hard pass.

 Crimson wrote:

 Silentz wrote:

And then the very next turn a banner of 3 knights flanked a Warlord titan, attacked it from the rear and pretty much smashed it to pieces! They didn't deal the killing blow but they did most of the work.

I do feel like there might possibly (hopefully?) have been a rules error when doing the Knight combat - they seemed to be surprisingly deadly in combat. Void shields don't count and they can target the body for maximum damage.

This sounds like good design to me.

Yeah same, I'm super excited for a game where maneuvering is important and 4 warhounds could be a threat to 2 warlords by staying out of fire lane and out activating them.

Honestly if void shields don’t count in close combat, then a knight banner might be scarier than a warhound.

I'm still enthused.

Thanks to that price, convincing friends is another story.

I can see myself buying this in the near future. The game looks good, the models are gorgeous and the theme is brilliant.

The fact that movement and facing are crucial is much welcomed news. 40k while good relies too much on special rules and not enough on tactics. This seems to be more about rewarding tactics.

Just the asking price that is a bit hard to swallow. I doubt anyone in my gaming area (Sligo, Ireland) is going to pick it up, so the Grand Master set does allow me to do demo games. Add in a few of the extra titans and I should have enough to field two forces.

That being said, I have promised myself no new models till I paint my current plastic pile of shame. That at the very least will provide a long enough gap between it and Kill Team for me.

I've gone for it, but from my gaming club, I think it's just me and one other guy. Everyone else has passed. Where-as with the Kill Team pre-order people were falling over themselves to pick it up

Again, it’s absolutely the inclusion of the terrain in the core set that’s killing this.

£20 for 3 knights? Seems about right compared to the pricing of terminators. Not a good deal for amount of plastic, but it is a small model count game so I’d happily accept that.

£65 for a plastic model the size of a Thanatar? A bit steep by GW pricing brackets if a riptide can be £50, but screw it, “specialist game small model count premium”.

Rules kit? Kinda weird way of packaging it, but I can see the logic for the £35 price.

And then the set containing all these things comes to £175 because they shoved terrain in the box, and thus people look at it and see “Hang on, that’s nearly £200 and it’s not even cheaper than buying the models separately!” And are justifiably put off, even if it is cheaper than models + rule box.

Well, just because you don't like the scenery doesn't mean it's worth £0. But I understand that for some, it's just too much in one hit. Me? I'm in on this and so are a couple of others (at least) in the area, so only 19,997 to go, if the rumour is right. The new terrain will save us having to play with brightly coloured cardboard with plastic rooves.

Of course real AT players use polystyrene skyscrapers....

changemod wrote:
Again, it’s absolutely the inclusion of the terrain in the core set that’s killing this.

£20 for 3 knights? Seems about right compared to the pricing of terminators. Not a good deal for amount of plastic, but it is a small model count game so I’d happily accept that.

£65 for a plastic model the size of a Thanatar? A bit steep by GW pricing brackets if a riptide can be £50, but screw it, “specialist game small model count premium”.

Rules kit? Kinda weird way of packaging it, but I can see the logic for the £35 price.

And then the set containing all these things comes to £175 because they shoved terrain in the box, and thus people look at it and see “Hang on, that’s nearly £200 and it’s not even cheaper than buying the models separately!” And are justifiably put off, even if it is cheaper than models + rule box.

Agreed, it feels like there should be a second tier box on offer here. So, you could buy just the rules if you wanted and add titans to taste, or you could buy a 'starter box' with rules, one titan and three knights for a small discount compared to buying them separately. If you wanted to go for the full experience, you could get the Grand Master edition instead.

Personally I would probably use cardboard terrain. You can get some very nice stuff for just a few bucks and endlessly reprint it to fill a table. And in this scale the lack of 3D detail doesn't matter that much.

With the scenery I guess they figured, this is a whole different scale so people can't use their existing 28mm stuff - and if we don't put some in the box people will complain about it being "unplayable"

Cardboard would have been a nice compromise, the stuff in the Dropzone Commander set is half decent. Enough to play a game with IMO.
If they did card + plastic roofs they could have ticked another nostalgia box for those that remembered the Space Marine 2nd Edition set

Again, it’s absolutely the inclusion of the terrain in the core set that’s killing this.

I disagree. I think they base prices are too high. The box set is just one more example.

MarkNorfolk wrote:
Well, just because you don't like the scenery doesn't mean it's worth £0.

I like it fine, but it’s worthless to someone who isn’t setting up their own board... A category which includes me, and indeed most players of most gw games.

Justyn wrote:

Again, it’s absolutely the inclusion of the terrain in the core set that’s killing this.

I disagree. I think they base prices are too high. The box set is just one more example.

GW absolutely price too high in general, but that’s irrelevant here. The only aspect above and beyond the pale to someone already a regular GW consumer here is an initial buy in bundle set at both £175 and at a price where the real “meat” of the set, the actual army, effectively comes at no discount.

A price around £150 should have been possible, even with the scenery in the box. That is a psychologic border for many gamers, i think.

£150 / 180 EUR / 200 US / 250 AUS.

Prices around that, would increase demand a lot... Still expensive, but "okay" for a nearby Ruleset.

Today's community article states that the magnet holes accomodate 5mm x 1mm discs. Happy about that, as I have a bunch of those lying around from another project that never took off

Dropzone commander terrain should be the right size for this, they have a full 6'x4' card city that seems pretty dense for £24.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/08/08/8th-aug-adeptus-titanicus-war-on-a-new-scalegw-homepage-post-4fw-homepage-post-1/

More spending ahead, the warhound is gorgeous ;-)

Warhound! Here's the full vid

 stonehorse wrote:
I can see myself buying this in the near future. The game looks good, the models are gorgeous and the theme is brilliant.

The fact that movement and facing are crucial is much welcomed news. 40k while good relies too much on special rules and not enough on tactics. This seems to be more about rewarding tactics.

Just the asking price that is a bit hard to swallow. I doubt anyone in my gaming area (Sligo, Ireland) is going to pick it up, so the Grand Master set does allow me to do demo games. Add in a few of the extra titans and I should have enough to field two forces.

That being said, I have promised myself no new models till I paint my current plastic pile of shame. That at the very least will provide a long enough gap between it and Kill Team for me.

An easy fix the the plastic pile of shame is to label yourself a collector. I haven't played a game in 20 years and barely painted a mini in 10, but for a long time I'd still buy the occasional cool thing, leave it all on sprue and pack it away nice and neat in a cupboard. It's only when you have dozens of half built, half painted minis on full display on a desk somewhere that it becomes painful to look at.

 Sherrypie wrote:
Once again, there is nothing that necessitates you couldn't just as easily play on a larger table in your own games. You only get predictable games if you don't put effort in them on your own part.

Well I could play on the floor too, but I do not want to. I actually have a 6x4 table, but that is only recently. I played for most of my life on a 4x4 board. Most tables I see at hobby shops are divided up 4x4 too. I think that should be the standard size games should be based on. Sure you can go bigger, but not everyone has that much space.

Because that isn't what anyone is really saying? The point is that having the entire scale of things from infantry to god-engines in the same rules system requires compromising either one of those and the intent here was to go all in in the thematic part of fighting with the titans. Just like many historical games usually focus on infantry alone and maybe throw some artillery or mortar support in from off field, here the spotlight is all for the titans, Would it have been cool if this was Epic? Sure, I too like large flanking sweeps and entire armies slowly grinding each other to dust, Am I okay with this game being a different game, because it never said it's going to be Epic? Yes, because I like it for what it seems to be on its own merits.

Well, if they had gone the route that AT could easily be expanded on to include those other Epic units, there would be more to build, play, and explore with the game, right? How many Titan on Titan battles do you think you will have will a single Warlord on each side before you are over it? I mean seriously. Someone mentioned that Knight game Renegades. I never bought it, and immediately thought it looked boring because of the limited number of models. Now, I am sure the game involves micro-managing a Knight and there might be some interest in some players to try that out, but seriously how many on Dakka have or are even playing it regularly, or even able to find others to play it? What is more interesting? Playing a game with one type of unit? Or a mix of units? And I don't mean trying it out over a weekend, but investing in the game and making a hobby out of it. I played At/SM1 for YEARS. I played SM2/TL for YEARS. Why? Because the game captured my imagination by incorporating a wide number of units and different ways to play them. I could win games an infinite number of ways. That is what keeps people playing.

Specialist Games studio struggles to get more space and production time. They don't really have too many hands to work on the project, given that it took two years for one man to create what we have here (modelwise).

I can appreciate that, I really can. I was involved with playtesting for Epic A back in the day, and face palmed a lot of decisions Jervis was suggesting because he didn't seem to understand what players ultimately wanted. He created a release schedule that had Chaos, CHAOS, being released like 3-4 years out after the EpicA rulebook. Meanwhile, the Swordwind supplement came out that basically included a second Imperial Guard army and a second Ork army from the initial rulebook that only included Space Marines, Imperial Guard, and Orks. After all that development, getting people excited, he thought Feral Orks would be an exciting release. I couldn't believe it. And of course, you had people come out and say, "Oh but I think the Feral Orks are awesome and I am happy to have them" but the vast majority of Chaos players just lost interest. Chaos should have come a long time before Feral Orks.

What Jervis showed me was how you could kill a game right out of the gate by making players believe it wouldn't be properly supported or expanded on. Specialist Games, or Fanatic back then, was on a shoe string budget too. I don't want to sound too harsh on them. But if that was the case, they should have worked with existing sprues and models in the Epic 40k line versus making modifications to them and so forth. It seemed logical maybe, but it costed them dearly as players dropped off and they had spent their money on items that weren't selling. And later on they just went ahead and used the older Epic 40k sprues because there wasn't any money to revise them. They should have just done that from the beginning.

If GW wanted this to be successful, rather than coming out and saying, 'Hey this is Titan only and that's how they designed it', they should have looked farther ahead and think about how they could incorporate Epic into it, and even tell players that those updates could be down the road, depending how the game does. Imagine if this set, rather than coming out with 2 Warlords and 6 Knights, came out with a 2 Reavers, 4 Warhounds, and some infantry and Land Raiders. Its not that the set is expensive, ITS WHAT YOU CAN DO WITH IT. How many games can you get out of it? If its Titans only, and your entrance fee is pretty steep, getting newbies to sign on is going to be difficult. But showing how much game is in the box and the different ways to play and win is going to make the set far more appealing. 3-5 Titans per side does not sound like a game that is going to be played a lot.

I don't doubt some people are going to love getting this game. I also doubt they will play it very much. And if it dies, and GOD KNOWS I DO NOT WANT IT TO, that means GW probably wont expand on it, and that is the tragedy.

The Horus Heresy started battling it out in 6mm, and it was glorious. I just can't believe that since Epic 40k, GW just can't get their act together on this. The mass of players rejected Epic 40k, they rejected Epic A, and they will ultimately reject this. And its not the scale that's the problem, its either the arrogance in the rules design or not convincing players to support it long term.

I am really not trying to come across as a cry baby. Epic is what got me into gaming. I have a huge appreciation for this scale. But I want to see people playing AT for the next 2-3 years. I just don't see that happening now, and that's why I am so disappointed.

And I will be buying the GM edition. I have to. I have everything ever released for Epic whether its a box set, White Dwarf, Journal, or whatever. :(

Reaver and warhounds

I've actually never played with or against a Knight in 40k, so how do they compare in strength to Land Raiders?

The Warhound looks great, still amazed how they have lost none of the detail from the 40K models especially when you learn that Chris has to measure every bit of the Reaver and Warhound to input into CAD.

Nice to hear that they already have releases planned for the next few months and other stuff in the works.

I will definitely be waiting for 6 months after the initial release to see what kind of boxed sets they come out with in addition to the GM edition. I'm sure a "booster pack" of sorts will come out with a reaver and couple of warhounds will show up and that would be perfect for me!

Well, I just used the ebay code to preorder the rulest at additional 15% off so now have to see if my mate wants to split the big box. If not, can resell the rules or just hold on to them.

 KTG17 wrote:
I've actually never played with or against a Knight in 40k, so how do they compare in strength to Land Raiders?

Not really a fair comparison given a land raider is a transport with low firepower to cost ratio? Consider that it has a double-shot version of the main Leman Russ weapon as one of it’s arm options though.

 KTG17 wrote:
I've actually never played with or against a Knight in 40k, so how do they compare in strength to Land Raiders?

They are kind of similar in toughness, but Knights have the distinct advantage that they can walk out of combat, shoot, then charge back in.

Whereas Land Raiders can drive out of combat, then do nothing at all for a turn.

Knights are better.

There are pre-orders up on EBay, including S&H from the UK, that cost the same as buying it in the US from somewhere like Frontline....