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 Mymearan wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Don't kid yourself. By the time you think they should be releasing xenos, they'll have done a dozen new big box games and AT will be another forgotten project.

You say this but out of the "big box" items we've had so far obviously 40k & AoS are supported but so is Kill Team, Shadespire, Necromunda, and Bloodbowl are still being supported. The first 4 being produced by GW proper and not specialist games but the two specialist games are being supported. And unlike the previous 2 specialist games this is designed for Match Play which seems to be an indicator of seriousness of continuation. Additionally it may have been on the fence but I'm pretty sure their financials will bear out this was a good launch.

Indeed. Lord blackfang’s scenario has happened with literally zero of the previous Specialist Games projects, so I have no idea where that came from. Even smaller GW boxed games like Renegade, Lost Patrol and Execution force have received post-release support in White Dwarf. Titanicus is not one of those games though, it’s a fully supported Specialist Games product just like all their other projects.

No, Lord Blackfang's scenario has happened with literally every specialist game, you just need a long enough memory.

Support for 12 months and then on to the next thing is the life of a GW specialist game.

 Azreal13 wrote:
No, Lord Blackfang's scenario has happened with literally every specialist game, you just need a long enough memory.

Support for 12 months and then on to the next thing is the life of a GW specialist game.

I think the sins of GW 10 years past are well known, but to ignore the past 2 years worth of support for every game, small and large is also unfair.

To make any assumptions about long term support based on two years of, occasional,y decidedly patchy, releases isn't a good idea.

Edit: Also, we're not talking ten years ago, were talking back into the last century, in the era of 2nd Ed 40K, Epic was a core game and stuff like Gorka Morka happened. Non-core games still operated on an essentially 12 month cycle.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Don't kid yourself. By the time you think they should be releasing xenos, they'll have done a dozen new big box games and AT will be another forgotten project.

You say this but out of the "big box" items we've had so far obviously 40k & AoS are supported but so is Kill Team, Shadespire, Necromunda, and Bloodbowl are still being supported. The first 4 being produced by GW proper and not specialist games but the two specialist games are being supported. And unlike the previous 2 specialist games this is designed for Match Play which seems to be an indicator of seriousness of continuation. Additionally it may have been on the fence but I'm pretty sure their financials will bear out this was a good launch.

Indeed. Lord blackfang’s scenario has happened with literally zero of the previous Specialist Games projects, so I have no idea where that came from. Even smaller GW boxed games like Renegade, Lost Patrol and Execution force have received post-release support in White Dwarf. Titanicus is not one of those games though, it’s a fully supported Specialist Games product just like all their other projects.

No, Lord Blackfang's scenario has happened with literally every specialist game, you just need a long enough memory.

Support for 12 months and then on to the next thing is the life of a GW specialist game.

It should be pretty obvious I wasn’t talking about the old Specialist Games, which is quite irrelevant to this discussion since it consisted of entirely different people under entirely different leadership.

@ Overread- I'm streets behind! Awesome reference.

I think those worrying about support for Adeptus Titanicus are taking the wrong message away from this.

GW just sold out a bundle that cost almost 300 dollars at a much lower discount point than the bundles. Expect more product like this, priced like this in the future.

I predict, here and now, BFG will be upscaled and its price made equivalent to Adeptus Titanicus.

 Azreal13 wrote:
To make any assumptions about long term support based on two years of, occasional,y decidedly patchy, releases isn't a good idea.

Edit: Also, we're not talking ten years ago, were talking back into the last century, in the era of 2nd Ed 40K, Epic was a core game and stuff like Gorka Morka happened. Non-core games still operated on an essentially 12 month cycle.

But it is, and in fact is the only relevant comparison we can make.

 Mymearan wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Don't kid yourself. By the time you think they should be releasing xenos, they'll have done a dozen new big box games and AT will be another forgotten project.

You say this but out of the "big box" items we've had so far obviously 40k & AoS are supported but so is Kill Team, Shadespire, Necromunda, and Bloodbowl are still being supported. The first 4 being produced by GW proper and not specialist games but the two specialist games are being supported. And unlike the previous 2 specialist games this is designed for Match Play which seems to be an indicator of seriousness of continuation. Additionally it may have been on the fence but I'm pretty sure their financials will bear out this was a good launch.

Indeed. Lord blackfang’s scenario has happened with literally zero of the previous Specialist Games projects, so I have no idea where that came from. Even smaller GW boxed games like Renegade, Lost Patrol and Execution force have received post-release support in White Dwarf. Titanicus is not one of those games though, it’s a fully supported Specialist Games product just like all their other projects.

No, Lord Blackfang's scenario has happened with literally every specialist game, you just need a long enough memory.

Support for 12 months and then on to the next thing is the life of a GW specialist game.

It should be pretty obvious I wasn’t talking about the old Specialist Games, which is quite irrelevant to this discussion since it consisted of entirely different people under entirely different leadership.

Theres zero evidence that nuGW won't do likewise, simply because SG haven't been back long enough to prove otherwise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mymearan wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
To make any assumptions about long term support based on two years of, occasional,y decidedly patchy, releases isn't a good idea.

Edit: Also, we're not talking ten years ago, were talking back into the last century, in the era of 2nd Ed 40K, Epic was a core game and stuff like Gorka Morka happened. Non-core games still operated on an essentially 12 month cycle.

But it is, and in fact is the only relevant comparison we can make.

Really "nu-uh, yes it is" is your counter?

Comparing specialist games of yesteryear is either a valid comparison or it isn't, make your mind up.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Well yes pricing is way more than just material costs to produce a model of that size; its profit, considering volume of sale (not just per customer but how big the potential customer base might be), considering room within the price to allow for finances to provide for further investment potential in that range (this might even just be looking at the profits). Plus GW has distribution, stores, art, lore, marketing etc.. all to pay for too.

Yeah, if you've even a passing familiarity with my posting history you'll realise that this isn't news to me.

As per their last report, their cost of sales is running a little over 25% (a figure that has been largely consistent by a few % for years now.) So, broadly speaking, that £65 Warlord cost them around £13 to make, including all the studio costs to design it, the machining of the die to cast it, and all associated costs getting it in the box (including printing that box.)

Irrespective of how well they're doing, I'm still convinced that their pricing is past the peak of the bell curve, and they could be doing even better. Of course, if one is experiencing a production bottleneck, and has a hardcore of credulous customers who seemingly aren't price elastic, then throwing product out at a premium and realising the most cash on the limited number of units you've got isnt bad business, but long term I think price is going to become an issue once again, as they still continue to raise their prices as they release new product.

Maybe, on the other hand, I expected AT Titans to have a premium price, due to GW expecting to sell less of them etc. but when you compare the price to modern GW products it's pricing is more or less in line with the other big stompy robots they've produced recently, So they're expensive yes but at least it's only 40k expensive, and there's no "specialist games tax"

Everything GW sells is premium priced!

But AT is honestly a weird one, the rules are very reasonable given all the doohickeys included, the Knights are almost half what I expected the box of 3 to be, yet the Warlord and the GME are over and above what I thought was an already pessimistic personal prediction.

still a little baffled that so many of the GW faithful have been taken in by the highly managed fake scarcity BS of the GME, its the kind of gakky move the other companys such as Nintendo and WoTC have been pulling for years

 Azreal13 wrote:
Everything GW sells is premium priced!

But AT is honestly a weird one, the rules are very reasonable given all the doohickeys included, the Knights are almost half what I expected the box of 3 to be, yet the Warlord and the GME are over and above what I thought was an already pessimistic personal prediction.

IMHO the warlord should not have been the "intro titan" and it should have been saved for last. If they had introduced the riever first that proably would have been the better way to do it. it's a solid general titan. and likely will be the "work horse" titan for most people it will have kept the cost down, and I think people would have accepted the price of the warlord when it came later better as it wouldn't have been seen as the "inital titan" but rather as "my big centerpiece" If the reiver sells for say the price of a redemptor dread they could keep the price MUCH lower and you'd have likely been looking at a 200-250 dollar set instead of a 300 dollar one

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
still a little baffled that so many of the GW faithful have been taken in by the highly managed fake scarcity BS of the GME, its the kind of gakky move the other companys such as Nintendo and WoTC have been pulling for years

I don't think many are "taken in" by it. It's just a limited production run for something that is appearing to sell really well. All the content in the box is freely sold and will be produced as normal by GW from now on until AT dies. The only limited item was the coin.

I think afew who were very much on the fence have balked when their orders have been cancelled and just gone from "eh maybe" to "eh nope" or they wanted the discount and free Warlord, but might not have time to get started now and so are willing to wait .

 Azreal13 wrote:
To make any assumptions about long term support based on two years of, occasional,y decidedly patchy, releases isn't a good idea.

Edit: Also, we're not talking ten years ago, were talking back into the last century, in the era of 2nd Ed 40K, Epic was a core game and stuff like Gorka Morka happened. Non-core games still operated on an essentially 12 month cycle.

We know the new specialist games are being supported. We know they have expanded their team to keep sculpting more.

We know the AT guy is there sculpting AT stuff and will continue to do so.

 Overread wrote:

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
still a little baffled that so many of the GW faithful have been taken in by the highly managed fake scarcity BS of the GME, its the kind of gakky move the other companys such as Nintendo and WoTC have been pulling for years

I don't think many are "taken in" by it. It's just a limited production run for something that is appearing to sell really well. All the content in the box is freely sold and will be produced as normal by GW from now on until AT dies. The only limited item was the coin.

I think afew who were very much on the fence have balked when their orders have been cancelled and just gone from "eh maybe" to "eh nope" or they wanted the discount and free Warlord, but might not have time to get started now and so are willing to wait .

Personally I hope it has sold like hot cakes and is not created scarcity, if it sold then GW will notice there is a demand for this game and fingers crossed give me the game I want !!

Vorian wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
To make any assumptions about long term support based on two years of, occasional,y decidedly patchy, releases isn't a good idea.

Edit: Also, we're not talking ten years ago, were talking back into the last century, in the era of 2nd Ed 40K, Epic was a core game and stuff like Gorka Morka happened. Non-core games still operated on an essentially 12 month cycle.

We know the new specialist games are being supported. We know they have expanded their team to keep sculpting more.

We know the AT guy is there sculpting AT stuff and will continue to do so.

Which is no different from the past, until it stopped.

GW has a case of corporate ADHD, none of the new shiny that people have got excited about has given any indication that's changed, the only thing that will do so is if we can be talking in 5 years about the latest updates to AT or Shadespire, and not have the conversation be "oh, I remember that, good game, shame they didn't keep making it."

They've never had anything like the support they are giving these games now. Specialist games have obviously been a massive success, they aren't going anywhere.

Stuff like the boxed games, the Heresy ones, GoC, the new speed freaks etc - they are 40k support. They'll get white dwarf stuff now and again but thas all

Kill team, shadespire, warhammer quest are obviously for the longer haul. They'll keep having releases under that brand.

Lets be honest ANY product GW makes has the potential to die from either the market just not taking it up enough; to GW not pushing or advertising or working with it enough through to internal politics in GW killing it through to a sudden spike in trade prices meaning GW has to cut some chaff to preserve its core products etc....

Any product we buy into - even the mighty Sigmar and 40K can die. Heck we NEARLY saw the total end of GW producing a fantasy game (Fantasy was on its knees and had just lost Tomb Kings and was likely going to lose way more) etc...

However I think there is a point at which we can be so overly negative that we overlook the positive aspects (and yes there is positive beyond just a paycheque for GW staff and the shareholders)

Vorian wrote:
They've never had anything like the support they are giving these games now.

Were you around in the 90s? Because the volume of stuff that came out for the specialist game du jour was easily on par with what we're seeing now. They're just doing it concurrently and over a longer time frame now, whereas they used to just release it all in a few months, publish a few articles in WD and then move on to the next game in the rotation.

Specialist games have obviously been a massive success, they aren't going anywhere.

Unlike the last time they were successful and not going anywhere?

Stuff like the boxed games, the Heresy ones, GoC, the new speed freaks etc - they are 40k support. They'll get white dwarf stuff now and again but thas all

Kill team, shadespire, warhammer quest are obviously for the longer haul. They'll keep having releases under that brand.

Citation needed. Or, more accurately, sufficient time passed needed to make this actually true rather than marketing spiel.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
still a little baffled that so many of the GW faithful have been taken in by the highly managed fake scarcity BS of the GME, its the kind of gakky move the other companys such as Nintendo and WoTC have been pulling for years

According to their statements in their financial reports GW, up to the board room level, GW concerns itself with return on capital as a metric of success for their projects and making decisions about future projects.

It's not artificial scarcity, it's risk management. It's making an analisys of the financial results of a variety of prices and volumes sold. And you can't actually know the combination of volume and price to generate the maximum possible revenue in advance. So all you can do is make projections about possible scenarios and GW knows they easiest way to kill their return on captial for an entire quarter is to get this wrong.

Sure, I was, but I remember it differently to you. Epic had a few updates to go with the very old plastics. Necromunda was one major release followed by outlander expansion and then years later a half arsed fanatic few gangs.

All those were done as side projects by the main studio. They were great, don't get me wrong, but nothing like we are seeing now

These have an entire division set up and people employed to work solely on these things.

The Warlord is right about the same size of Magnus and Mortarion (not counting wings), both of which are more expensive. They all reach just under the edge of the standard Knight's shoulder guards, with Mortarion being the shortest.

What were people expecting with the price? Seriously.

Hi. If y'all want to discuss how big evil GW is lying to us to steal all our money, any chance of doing it outside the giant robbits thread? Cheers.

 xttz wrote:
Hi. If y'all want to discuss how big evil GW is lying to us to steal all our money, any chance of doing it outside the giant robbits thread? Cheers.

I'm sure it will all ease off once the orders go out and people start getting rules, mechs and all in their hands

 Azreal13 wrote:

Vorian wrote:
They've never had anything like the support they are giving these games now.

Were you around in the 90s? Because the volume of stuff that came out for the specialist game du jour was easily on par with what we're seeing now. They're just doing it concurrently and over a longer time frame now, whereas they used to just release it all in a few months, publish a few articles in WD and then move on to the next game in the rotation.

Specialist games have obviously been a massive success, they aren't going anywhere.

Unlike the last time they were successful and not going anywhere?

Stuff like the boxed games, the Heresy ones, GoC, the new speed freaks etc - they are 40k support. They'll get white dwarf stuff now and again but thas all

Kill team, shadespire, warhammer quest are obviously for the longer haul. They'll keep having releases under that brand.

Citation needed. Or, more accurately, sufficient time passed needed to make this actually true rather than marketing spiel.

Show me where the bad specialist game manager touched you! But seriously the only product still going strong from the 90's table top strategy wise is 40k.....You seem stuck on the idea that every product released should have full coverage forever. 40k is the outlier, not the norm. Even WFB died. That said GW seems dedicated to providing full games now. I wouldn't be surprised for most specialist games to get 2-4 years of support before being considered a "full" game and then they stop support. That's reasonable for a side game. If they keep selling the models as direct only that's not really a huge deal to me. That's still more than most game systems last put out by other companies.

I've also hear that Rountree spent time with specialist games before he went to Forgeworld. If that's the case we've actually got someone who believes in side games being beneficial to the health of the company. Take a breath and maybe a break. You're not the only guy whose been around since 2nd edition and honestly even with me being an adult and having way less free time I'm currently happier with GW than I ever was in the late 90's and early 2000's let alone the dark times before Rountree.

 zend wrote:
The Warlord is right about the same size of Magnus and Mortarion (not counting wings), both of which are more expensive. They all reach just under the edge of the standard Knight's shoulder guards, with Mortarion being the shortest.

What were people expecting with the price? Seriously.

Bell of Lost Souls actually put out an article with an image that really gives a fantastic prespective of the price




It shows that the Warlord is pretty much in line with every other big stompy robot GW has given us in the last few years. So yeah, the price of the Warlord is about what we should expect.

It might be in line with GW's normal pricing...but that still doesn't actually justify the price to many consumers (myself included). GW of course, can price however they wish - and obviously their stuff sells. But there are a lot of gamers who play GW games who do not buy large $100+ models unless we find a crazy sale, or a combo-box, etc.

Vorian wrote:
They've never had anything like the support they are giving these games now. Specialist games have obviously been a massive success, they aren't going anywhere.

Stuff like the boxed games, the Heresy ones, GoC, the new speed freaks etc - they are 40k support. They'll get white dwarf stuff now and again but thas all

Kill team, shadespire, warhammer quest are obviously for the longer haul. They'll keep having releases under that brand.

Specialist were always a success. They were nice games, and manageable too. The trouble was, once you had your 3 Necro gangs, or 3 BB teams, you were basically done spending. Sure you might get bored eventually, but you could then buy another single gang, or even just start using one of your mate's BB team and he uses one of yours. Not like 40K, where if you're bored of your SMs and want to switch to Eldar, it's a reasonably large financial investment. Theoretically you could swap your Marines for someone else's Eldar, but that seems far more drastic than a temporary loan of a small, 15 model team / gang. Maybe that's the reason they're doing this weird staggered release (they were always staggered ofc, but not to this extent as far as I recall). Maybe the plan is that everyone buys everything, because they've got 3 months to buy and paint each team / gang as they're released. And the prices seem reasonable too, so that could further encourage people to buy absolutely everything the game has to offer.

Seeing that comparison image makes me think the warhounds might be quite a bit cheaper than armigers. The warhounds should be pretty short compared to the warlord and be at a hopefully decent price. Being able to skip the warlord and get two warhounds for less than a pair of armigers should lower the cost of entry to the game quite a bit, as 2 warhounds and a knight banner could offer plenty of gameplay variety compared to 1 warlord and 3 knights dueling off in a mirror match.

BrianDavion wrote:

 zend wrote:
The Warlord is right about the same size of Magnus and Mortarion (not counting wings), both of which are more expensive. They all reach just under the edge of the standard Knight's shoulder guards, with Mortarion being the shortest.

What were people expecting with the price? Seriously.

Bell of Lost Souls actually put out an article with an image that really gives a fantastic prespective of the price




It shows that the Warlord is pretty much in line with every other big stompy robot GW has given us in the last few years. So yeah, the price of the Warlord is about what we should expect.

The £50 Crusader / Errant seems like a glaringly convenient omission.

 Ghool wrote:

They could be the best models in the world. But charging $350CAD as a starting point for 2 players is the perfect way to stop me dead in my tracks.

The set's expensive as it is in the UK, but the Canadian price is a really bitter pill to swallow. Our prices don't include sales tax, while the UK prices do - so the RRP of £175 (C$290.50) is actually £145.83 ($242.08 Canadian) + tax. So right out of the gate we're paying an extra hundred bucks just because.

I want the set, but I'm just going to wait till I can snag one from a UK discounter and have it sent to my family in the UK. If I can grab one at £140 it'll be costing me $232.40 instead of the $392 I'd pay at my local GW after sales tax and I'll pick it up next time I'm over there.