Nostromodamus wrote:

Oggthrok wrote:
The original Titan Legions sort of nibbled its way into Epic.

That was Adeptus Titanicus and Space Marine, not Titan Legions.

 War Drone wrote:
All these pricing speculations are interesting, but ... those of us still here on P54 are gonna be buying it anyway, regardless of "cost" ... aren't we?

puree wrote:
On the Sunday specialist game seminar they said it would be the most expensive starter, following some questions (give us a clue so we can start saving!) they said it would be less than £200. How much I don't know, 1p or £50. But from what they said £200 is the max it will be.

It does look really nice, going to be hard to not buy it.

 Mysterio wrote:

Given how GW does conversions, what does £200 turn into elsewhere?

In the 'real world', that would be about $270US, but would that mean GW would put it at $300?

Would they...dare?

And would that become too large a barrier for many?

 Mysterio wrote:
Oh I don't know - I think quite a few 40K Starter sets had terrain in them.

And you're definitely going to need terrain in AT in order to make it more interesting - and fun!

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
One thing to keep in mind is GW may be looking to crowd out competitors. This is coming just as Battletech is trying to relaunch.

Ben2 wrote:
Done well it'll be a visually incredible game.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Mysterio wrote:
Oh I don't know - I think quite a few 40K Starter sets had terrain in them.

And you're definitely going to need terrain in AT in order to make it more interesting - and fun!

You’re gonna need terrain to make the game work!

Consider. Warhound Titans traditionally rely on their speed and small (relatively speaking) profile. They can go where larger Titans can’t, and hide where other larger Titans can’t.

Strip them of that, and they just become a ready source of cheap victory points (assuming VPs are in AT of course!). And thus, without terrain, they become a liability, and you might as well just field the biggest and toughest Titan you can. At that point, the game devolves into a mindless slugfest devoid of any and all tactical challenge.

Get the terrain right though? Warhounds suddenly become quite desireable. They may lack the wallop to drop a Warlord, or even a Reaver, but they can stalk the battlefield to find favourable positions, then get shield stripping, giving your Big Boys the chance to do the real damage.

You know, thinking about it, AT is a very difficult game to get right from a design point of view. Each unit needs its own niche, and each niche must have a viable role within the game (if not specific army selections). If Warhounds are too cheap, or too squishy, they’ll be no-brainer choices, or a straight up waste of points. If the Reaver proves too middling, it may lose out to the classes either side. Knights? Much the same as Warhounds. If they can’t even tickle a Warhound beyond Shield stripping, why take them over more Warhounds or Reavers?

The game needs to be offering us real tactical choices, and list building sacrifice. A Maniple of say, three Warlords, should be a challenge for most, but struggle against say, massed Warhounds - because they’ll die the death of a thousand cuts, without ever really being able to properly engage. If there’s a wide variety of possible, effective Maniple options, the game ought to prove good fun

What I will do is firstly go through the rough release schedule of the products before doing a break-down of the game in detail.

Products

Month 1 – Basic rules box containing hardback rulebook; 2x Warlord, Reaver, Warhound and Questoris pattern knight terminals; loads of tokens and basic weapon cards.

- Grand Master edition box: contains everything above plus 2x Warlords, 6x Questoris Knights and 4 (I think) sprues of buildings.

- Warlord Titan

- Warlord Titan terminals

- Questoris Knights in boxes of 3



Month 2 – Reaver titan (boxes of 1)

- Reaver titan terminals



Month 3 – Warhound titan

- Warhound terminals

There are other products due for release such as:

- Maniple sets of terminals for fixed types of titan combinations

- building sets coming in two sizes of boxes for expanding terrain

- resin realm of battle boards

- Cerastus pattern Knights

- Titan-Death (Beta-Garmon) campaign book

- New titan varients

- Weapon cards for Warlords, Reavers and (I presume) Warhounds

- Plastic weapon upgrades for all titan classes for common weapons

- Resin weapon upgrades for rarer weapons (the most requested are the Ursus Claws – ADB has a lot to answer for).

- Decal sheets for the titan legions

The Warhounds have been produced and painted by the FW team but weren`t shown for release as they are outside of the three month preview period as they are due for October. The first month of releases is due for release in August.

The titan sprues have been designed in a certain way and are spread over three sprues.

 1. Chassis

 2. Armour plates

3. Weapons

What this means is that in the future if different variants of existing titans are released, all the FW team have to do is swop out the appropriate sprue. For example, Siege of Terra Chaos titans will have the spikes, tentacles etc that we associate with Chaos so the standard armour plate sprue can be replaced with a Chaos version. This saves on tooling and product design. Also, currently, only the Warlord has magnet points (we don`t know about the Warhound). The Reaver has ball-joints on its arms so could be magnetised with a bit of work. The poseability of the kits is great and if you look online, you will find many, many photos of the sprues that show you how many parts there are. The kits also include options for Loyalist or Traitor armour plates with plain, Eye of Horus or Titan Legio symbols on them. No two titans need look the same.

The Specialist Games team have also suggested that if the game is successful then we will see an expansion into 40k with Eldar Phantoms and Ork Gargants being included in future expansions but for the moment – the focus is on Heresy. What was clarified many times is that this is a game of titans. The emphaisis is on God-Engines fighting each other as per the original game. There are no plans at all to expand into infantry, vehicles etc as the old Epic as the feeling is that it devalues the role and use of the titans. They have not ruled out a later version of epic as a separate game but there are no plans for the moments.

The plastic products will be supported by GW in the same way as Bloodbowl and Necromunda but will have a limited placement in physical stores just due to the sheer size of the products and the amount of space they will take up in the stores.

The game

The Specialist Team put on a demo-pod explaining the mechanics of the game in detail. This was hugely popular and the event organisers removed all the chairs from another area to ensure there were enough seats – there still wasn`t. This was a flaw I think. Rather than a demo-pod they should of organised this as a seminar supported by demo games in the Studio area. This would of ensured that people could see the game being played and enough people could hear it. The level of interest in this game is huge and probably only getting larger after this weekend.

I`ll begin with some lore and background before moving onto the separate components of the game.

Firstly, they emphasised that unlike the Astartes Legions which are limited to 18 in the Heresy, the Titan Legios are the opposite. There are hundreds of them – many of which do not survive past the Heresy. This means that there is a large emphasis on creating your own Titan Legio and developing your own lore.

The first campaign book is focusing on Beta-Garmon (for details of this campaign see my Weekender Summary). This will include more rules for different Titan Legions and Maniple-types. The basic game only comes with Gryphonicus and Warp-Runners. The details on the campaign mechanics and development haven`t yet been released from the Studio team. However, they will detail specifics on each Legio such as campaign banners, colour schemes etc. 

The game focused on between 3-5 titans and attending Knight banners and will give 1500-2000 pts and is played on a 4`x4` board but can be expanded depending on number of players etc.

Each titan has a command terminal. This tells you the in-game details for your titan allows you to track the damage etc, that your titan has suffered. For example, it tells you how fast your titan can move, how many turns it takes, how many servitor clades it carries, what do you need for shooting or close combat. It also tells you your armour on different locations of the titan.

In game, you can manipulate your reactor to increase movement or shields but this runs the risk of over-loading the reactor (this is bad) or allowing the machine-spirit to dominate the princeps forcing the titan to act in a certain manner. The general principle is you take damage to the void shields, then armour and then start going critical and explode. Engine kill confirmed!

During the game, you can repair systems. Each titan has a number of servitor clades that each one allows you to roll a single d6. For each system there is a target number to repair a damage or a void shield. If all the shields are dropped, they can only be brought back on a 6+ thus try not to allow your shields to drop.

Knights also have a terminal but this represents a unit (banner) of between 3-5 knights. Each knight can be armed individually and each gives slightly different advantages and disadvantages. Knights cannot go toe-to-toe with a titan but can bring down void shields or finish off a heavily damaged titan. These are you skirmishers and light troops and can access areas of the board that bigger titans can`t. Ignore them at your peril.

The game also includes stratagems and commands. Stratagems give you advantages before the game begins such as outflanking, fortifications etc. If your maniple has lower points than your opponent, then you gain extra stratagems to balance your forces.

Commands are issued at the start of the turn and each titan class has a target number to achieve a command. If the roll is failed, no further commands are issued for the rest of your turn so does include some risks. There are 3 basic commands that don`t need a roll and 6 advanced orders. The box will include command dice so that you can mark the order given on the terminal. Each order gives bonuses and negatives. For example, you could focus on shooting but you can`t move.

Movement and shooting is alternative actions so both players are involved at all points of the game. For me, this makes much more sense as too many GW games have one person (or team) sitting around and letting things happen to them. Alternative activations allow more tactics to take place.

Movement is a key part of the game as weapon arcs are limited and titans are not manoeuvrable. A warlord, for example, can only make a turn for each 4” of movement or two if it overloads its reactor for movement. Smaller titans become faster and more manoeuvrable. Knights are free to move as they wish. Moving backwards is possible but at half-speed. Facing directly dictates the fire arcs of your weapons.

Weapon arcs are two types depending on the weapon and its location on the titan. Carapace tend to be fixed forward which is a straight corridor from the titans base; arm weapons have the typical 90° forward arc. Carapace weapons also include a minimum distance to shoot at as well. The weapon arcs are shown using a template that comes on the titan sprues to limit arguments. What all of this means is that Warlords are very powerful but if smaller titans can close the distance or get round the flanks, then the Warlord can be at a disadvantage as not all the weapons can be brought to focus on the target.

After selecting your target you make your attack rolls. Typically, the more dice you roll, the lower the strength of the weapon. Once any attack rolls are made, then you roll for damage. This is similar to 7th ed. vehicle penetration. You roll a d6, add the weapon strength and compare to the location armour to see the effect. Some hits won`t do anything at, high strength attacks could cause critical damage which is recorded on the template. Weapons also have special rules attached like shield-drain which knocks down void-shields faster, or greater critical damage. Void Shields allow you to make saves for each hit you take, the more shields you have left, the better your void saves. As your shields drop, their save gets worse. There are still templates for weapons like barrage launcher or flamer weapons.

What this means in practice is that the titans (or maniples) need a variety of weapons. You could load out your titan with engine-killers like volcano cannons but you won`t knock down shields quickly. Weapons which can shred shields may not have the strength to penetrate armour. Void Shields also have a minimum range so if you get close enough, the target won`t get its saves for shields. Shooting is alternative activation so selecting order of units is key for success. 

Close-combat is a part of the game but the emphasis is on the shooting aspect. The risk of close combat is that it’s very dangerous. If you kill an enemy titan in melee and it goes nuclear then you can kill yourself in the blast. 

Creating a maniple is key. The game includes several `model` maniples for you to base your forces on which reflects the narrative of the legio. Each type of maniple gives bonuses for using that type but restricts your choice of titan.

For example, a battleline maniple consists of:

1 Warlord

2 Reaver

2 Warhounds

The minimum maniple size for a battleline maniple is:

1 Warlord

1 Reaver

1 Warhound

Another maniple type (my personal favourite and my planned first build) is a hunting pack consisting off:

1 Reaver

4 Warhounds

Different titan legios may have unique maniples to reflect their fighting styles or units available. These will be detailed in specific campaign books.

The weapon pack cards give extras of different types of weapon beyond the basic game and will include all the plastic planned upgrade sets. These give you enough to field most of your maniple unless you are using multiples of the same class of titans. The weapon cards give you the rules and points for that weapon to place on your titan terminal.

To calculate the cost of the titan you add the base chassis cost to the individual cost of the weapons.

Iracundus wrote:


[/quoteOf course then the games have to have some reason for Warlords to not simply park themselves at the table edge with their rears facing the edge.

 Overread wrote:
Most games don't have reach-across-the-table weapons - I think Dropzone Commander is one of the few that does, but that game also introduces more countermeasures and often has a very dense terrain table coupled to objectives to break things up and force you closer.

Titans is likely going to have fewer long ranged weapons with a focus on getting closer for the real damage; though I'd wager we will see some long-range weapon battery options. The key then will be good positions and such.

Also don't forget a lot of titan weapons are close combat - those chainsaws, claws, hammers, lances etc.... that all work best when you're striding up to smash the opposing mech in the face (or in the back!).