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And others will buy all the releases, some to go on the big pile of un-opened plastic, and some to be painted up and played with right away.

The main concern and the purpose of all my posts was the worry that this AT would be designed to be just this AT, and not a system that could be expanded on to introduce marines and vehicles, like SM1 did, let alone ever bringing in other races.

If the game is designed to be too heavily focused on what titans are doing, it wont mix well with other kinds of units. Some people want that, fine. However, if the game isn't thinking longer term, then that expansion probably wont happen. Some of you are saying 'This is AT and all I want is AT' and that's fine, you're getting that. But for many of us we were hoping this would be a gateway to an expanded system. The concerns I was voicing had to do with the realization that probably won't happen.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
A chap posted an interesting point about what sort of game Epic should be.

What Epic 40,000 and Epic Armageddon got Right was the blast markers and unit suppression rules.

Those helped turn a ‘mere’ large scale engagement game into one that replicated the command experience.

Not saying it did so perfectly, but it played very differently to 40k. Yes, you could just shoehorn in the biggest of big guns. But reliable success came from knowing when and how to best suppress enemy formations.

Get something like that back for a hypothetical Epic scale game, and it’ll offer a different gaming experience to 40k.

I think the problem with Epic40k was that it was a completely different game that happened to use the same miniatures as epic spacemarine. It was very abstract where as epic space marine was more concrete. Epic40k is probably a "better" game with more interesting concepts, but felt so different from the previous version that it turned off a lot of players. Epic Armageddon fixed a lot of that disconnect, but was a bit too little too late at least for me. The high buy in cost made it hard to get new players interested.

I think gaming has evolved somewhat and a new epic with some of those abstractions could do well if the cost to play was comparable to other systems.

Even with inflated Ebay prices though Either/Or, it's a great deal cheaper than many other wargames out there. A lot of the 3rd party miniature releases are very reasonable priced as well, Vanguard etc.

 KTG17 wrote:
The main concern and the purpose of all my posts was the worry that this AT would be designed to be just this AT, and not a system that could be expanded on to introduce marines and vehicles, like SM1 did, let alone ever bringing in other races.

If the game is designed to be too heavily focused on what titans are doing, it wont mix well with other kinds of units. Some people want that, fine. However, if the game isn't thinking longer term, then that expansion probably wont happen. Some of you are saying 'This is AT and all I want is AT' and that's fine, you're getting that. But for many of us we were hoping this would be a gateway to an expanded system. The concerns I was voicing had to do with the realization that probably won't happen.

I see your point, but hopefully this game will do what it sets out to do very well. Which will be for Titan on Titan combat.

And if you want to expand to Epic there are the existing games out there, with a great community and support network (Which I just won't stop banging on about ). You don't need to wait for GW to release what would most likely be a slightly different version of an existing game..

Not sure if anyone postulated it... but what if FW is denying Epic because FW won't be doing it.

GW will be! Wouldn't that be funny! A compatible game like how FW makes titans for 40k.

Just dreaming, I know. But that would be hilarious.

 Pacific wrote:

And if you want to expand to Epic there are the existing games out there, with a great community and support network (Which I just won't stop banging on about ). You don't need to wait for GW to release what would most likely be a slightly different version of an existing game..

I know all about those, but I am not looking for just talking about games online with a international group. Its a lot easier to find players for a in-production game that is widely available as opposed to one that is oop for some time.

 KTG17 wrote:
The main concern and the purpose of all my posts was the worry that this AT would be designed to be just this AT, and not a system that could be expanded on to introduce marines and vehicles, like SM1 did, let alone ever bringing in other races.

If the game is designed to be too heavily focused on what titans are doing, it wont mix well with other kinds of units. Some people want that, fine. However, if the game isn't thinking longer term, then that expansion probably wont happen. Some of you are saying 'This is AT and all I want is AT' and that's fine, you're getting that. But for many of us we were hoping this would be a gateway to an expanded system. The concerns I was voicing had to do with the realization that probably won't happen.

No need to worry, it’s a fact. Make peace with that. This ain’t Epic.

 Albertorius wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Yeah but the person wasn't saying that they couldn't be done right, they were saying that the ones that DID exist looked awful.

He was saying that he would imagine that if Gw moved on with epic the scale would be 8mm or bigger because "the 6mm infantry models looked awful and were impossible to paint". I certainly read it as cause effect. But ok.

You can make mkiv marines in 6mm. Models that distinctly look like mk4 armour. It's been done.

That was my point, yes. I even linked some.

I don’t know anything about models produced after the old epic game GW minis stopped but I know no one I knew or know including myself could make anything of the infantry models. Mostly we just painted them red or blue or whatever. The bigger models just appealed to me I think more people could have a better chance at painting them. We arnt all Rembrandt’s, certainly not me! But I do enjoy painting and modelling, but 6mm scale has me beaten before I’ve even started.

Base coat, wash, drybrush, pick out details (down to the eyes, if you like - that detail is there on the Marines).

The effect comes from having a hundred of the little blighters all lined up, not from painstakingly painting one of 'em.

Back in 2nd edition, all my Space Wolves had pack markings on the shoulder, and company markings on the other (well, painted yellow with a black blob, but it looked good from 3' away). My Imperial Guar troopers all have the helmets, armour plates, hands, faces and lasgun all picked out, and I've seen examples of Legion of the Damned with the flames and bones all painted on, if you want to go to that level of detail.

http://www.solegends.com/citcat2005ussc/c2005usscp0048-00.htm

That's he official studio models. The Imperial Fists date to Epic 40,000 when Epic was a core game, so the standard there is probably higher than on the other models painted later under the Fanatic heading.

In 8mm (or even in 10 or 15), you can still have hundreds of infantry models, and they will look a hundred times better than the indistinct pinhead blobs that are 6mm models. 6mm is just too small a scale for good looking infantry.

Excellent!!! Great thread!

 Iron_Captain wrote:
In 8mm (or even in 10 or 15), you can still have hundreds of infantry models, and they will look a hundred times better than the indistinct pinhead blobs that are 6mm models. 6mm is just too small a scale for good looking infantry.

+40.000 !!!!

So true...

RazorEdge wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
In 8mm (or even in 10 or 15), you can still have hundreds of infantry models, and they will look a hundred times better than the indistinct pinhead blobs that are 6mm models. 6mm is just too small a scale for good looking infantry.

+40.000 !!!!

So true...

Bigger the better!

 KTG17 wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

And if you want to expand to Epic there are the existing games out there, with a great community and support network (Which I just won't stop banging on about ). You don't need to wait for GW to release what would most likely be a slightly different version of an existing game..

I know all about those, but I am not looking for just talking about games online with a international group. Its a lot easier to find players for a in-production game that is widely available as opposed to one that is oop for some time.

Yes that's true, but I think if you really want it the games are there.
I have a local few guys I can play with or another group within an hour's travel.
(Although I guess that's completely down to luck!)

If you're very committed and you have a pliable gaming group it's very easy to get 2 small forces, paint them up, and Epic Armageddon will sell itself. I'm sure this will be even easier post-AT.

What you won't be able to do is turn up unannounced at a local club on a random evening and get a game. But then from my experience you're only missing out on playing a 40k forced of partially painted/mixed Marine chapters supported by a Riptide that's missing an arm, so not a big deal

(Anyway - will stop preaching now, apologies!)

Honestly, I would expect the game - if sales support it - to expand into:

1) Variant Imperial titans
2) Other faction titans
3) Superheavies
4) Smaller stuff

tneva82 wrote:
Customer spends 100$ on 40k.

Epic comes. Customer spends 50$ to 40k, 50$ to epic.

Where's the profit for GW? He would have got 100$ anyway. Now GW just needs to pay resources for TWO games.

Maximize sales, minimize expenses. That's how companies make money. If all you do is increasing expenses and just shifting same money into multiple things your sales stay same while expenses go up.

You can't seriously believe that malarkey, can you?

I mean, you're aware that companies diversify their product lines all the time, and that offering a broad (or broader) range of products to appeal to (or expand into) different markets/demographics is one of the driving forces behind business?

You're looking at this as a zero sum game and that's, forgive the vulgarity, really fething stupid.

so the game should come in august, some of you whit conections know or meaning to know what the big box is gonna cost??
could be a very pricy produckt.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Customer spends 100$ on 40k.

Epic comes. Customer spends 50$ to 40k, 50$ to epic.

Where's the profit for GW? He would have got 100$ anyway. Now GW just needs to pay resources for TWO games.

Maximize sales, minimize expenses. That's how companies make money. If all you do is increasing expenses and just shifting same money into multiple things your sales stay same while expenses go up.

You can't seriously believe that malarkey, can you?

I mean, you're aware that companies diversify their product lines all the time, and that offering a broad (or broader) range of products to appeal to (or expand into) different markets/demographics is one of the driving forces behind business?

You're looking at this as a zero sum game and that's, forgive the vulgarity, really fething stupid.

If we're going hypothetical tneva82:

I have £200 disposable income. I only spend £100 on the new Knights and was considering spending the other £100 on Anvil.

Now that GW have released AT, I buy that instead of splashing out on some Anvil Regiments.

GW win my £200. Poor Anvil wonder why I haven't visited this month.

Of course the risk is that Anvil does get my money this month. GW win in the long run however because I buy AT next month when their major release is AOS related. I don't do AOS.

 skeleton wrote:
so the game should come in august, some of you whit conections know or meaning to know what the big box is gonna cost??
could be a very pricy produckt.

We haven't got prices from GW yet for the big box.

The "rules only" box, was mentioned as costing 40£, so the big box probably wont be less than 120£, might even be as much as 150£, seeing as you get two warlords, a set of six knights, as well as terrain in it.

Also, at the seminars it was mentioned that this would be "the most expensive starter box yet, by quite a bit."

I really hope they make some single faction starter boxes up to go alongside the big-box. Nothing would kill this faster than having it with a super high priced starting point and if they at least have a single player starter kit it can be more affordable.

We all know many people buy boxed sets in tandem with another player, but sometimes its good to have an option outside of that as a getting started. All the other games do this so I'm sure that we'll see it for Titanicus too.

Well, in case people don't want to go crazy on this at first, the Warlord, terrain, Knights, rules set and templates will be out separately around the same time as the Bigbox Starter.

So it should be easy to grab what you want/need and start from there.

Didn't they say that by buying the full set you effectively get a Warlord for free. So the option will be there to get it in parts over time or all in one go. This will probably be in the €200 range for the boxed game.

€200 seems a bit on the high side.

I'm thinking more like €150.

Which would mean all sorts of wacky rates across countries, per the usual GW 'conversion method'.

Yeah, I think of it this way;

Terrain: $30-60usd (depending on how much comes in the box)
Knights: $30usd (per 3)
Warlord: $60usd
Rulebook: $40 usd

That would put you pretty safely in the $175-$200 USD range. I don't think they'll want this starter to clear $200 usd.

That's a rough guess but given that they priced Bloodbowl just under $100 I could easily see the same thinking.

Granted it could actually be less too since it really is only 8 miniatures, some terrain, and a rulebook.

Deathwatch Overkill is €140/$165 and is (I believe - correct me if I'm wrong) the most expensive box set currently and AT will be the most expensive set to date. Maybe €200 is a bit on the high side but it won't be far off.

Wow, I guess my head is somewhere else on price?

A Warlord is just an inch shy of a $140USD 40k Knight, so even optimisticly I was pricing a Warlord at $100USD.

I was thinking there might be a smaller starter box eventually, but that the GRAND MASTER box would be £250 easy?

Imperial Knights Renegade was $195USD if memory serves. While not a “starter,” so it could be a red herring, that’s the realm I imagine things will end up in. Will be happy to be wrong about that, but that’s how i’m planning for August.

 Krinsath wrote:
Imperial Knights Renegade was $195USD if memory serves. While not a “starter,” so it could be a red herring, that’s the realm I imagine things will end up in. Will be happy to be wrong about that, but that’s how i’m planning for August.

Right, and that's kinda how I was figuring it. It's basically 2 smaller and less sprue intensive models (warlords), terrain (equivalent amount of actual terrain), and a rule book plus knights to make up the size and sprue difference. Hence that $175-$199 range. I think it'll be a bit rough if they go over $200usd. As long as you're still in the $100's you can still compare to some of the heavier boardgames and such. Cross that line and comparisons start to become about game systems instead.

Speedo jokes aside, I really am stoked for this.
TBH, I want Epic ... everything. But that's not gonna happen for a while (if ever).

But rules are readily available, and I just placed an order for some Mauler assault transports from Vanguard (would have also ordered Winter Novan infantry, i.e. DKoK, had they been in stock ...) and basically just plan on building up a non-Titan force by August that I can basically just slot the Titans into.

I'm not a lore-purist ... I tend to go with what is aesthetically pleasing to "me". So most of my AFVs are going to be Sicaran-based, but I might not use actual SM figs at all (which I think I "should" use from a lore perspective?).

And it's inspired me to drop my ADD and actually focus on one scale for terrain.

I too think Imperial Knights Renegade is a good price benchmark for this. Warlords will probably be slightly cheaper than 40k Imperial Knights, and the knights and rulebook in the AT box will probably make up the difference.