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 master of ordinance wrote:
Well, this brought up something from yesterday.

I was over at Gene's and he was talking about a game he had had with Timmy. Now Gene has only got 1.2K's worth of his Genestealer cult, and his sole big hitter is a Leman Russ.
Timmy wanted a 1750 game. "Thats okay" he said "You can recycle units". Everything was fine according to Gene, but then he mentioned one thing that made me pause.
Timmy had brought his new knight.
Honestly I am glad Timmy was not there or I think I would have floored him. As it was the only thing that stopped it being a white wash was Gene's Cult Ambush rules allowing most of his units to skip the first two thirds/three quarters of the board and get close fast, denying Timmy objectives and ultimately allowing him to scrape a draw.

So even with such suboptimal conditions it was a draw. I don't think this anyway demonstrates that the knights are OP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Grav is necessary because WK and Riptide are basically immune to other Imperial heavy weapons in the quantities you can field them. For example, it's around 40 BS 4 lascannon shots to kill Riptide.

Right. But this is a problem with MC/Vehicle rules and making things that are obviously vehicles into MCs. It is completely stupid that dedicated anti-armour weapons such as lascannons and meltas are laughably ineffective against alien-made giant robots.

You forget Grav is better than the Heavy weapons simply because they allow you to remain mobile.

"Right. But this is a problem with MC/Vehicle rules and making things that are obviously vehicles into MCs. It is completely stupid that dedicated anti-armour weapons such as lascannons and meltas are laughably ineffective against alien-made giant robots."

As long as that problem exists, we need grav in the game. Unfortunate, but true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You forget Grav is better than the Heavy weapons simply because they allow you to remain mobile.

That too.

Martel732 wrote:
"Right. But this is a problem with MC/Vehicle rules and making things that are obviously vehicles into MCs. It is completely stupid that dedicated anti-armour weapons such as lascannons and meltas are laughably ineffective against alien-made giant robots."

As long as that problem exists, we need grav in the game. Unfortunate, but true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You forget Grav is better than the Heavy weapons simply because they allow you to remain mobile.

That too.

Except to solve a problem you need a solution for everyone.

Not a solution for a few that further gimps the other armies.



Saying grav is needed for reason X or Y is crap, as it simply makes a few armies with access to it better and continues the power creep.
It's just killing one big issue with yet another.

Yes it makes marines able to kill those problem units.
It also makes them able to kill all other units bar a few crappy ones with ease.



The armies that don't have grav then have to contend with both the WK/tide issue while also facing grav aswell.

So it's no more of a fix than it is yet another issue.
If we are binning the WK rules as it is etc then the grav needs to go with it.

Grav simply needs to wound against size like it was intended to. Swarms on 6, infantry on 5+, Bulky on 4+, very bulky on 3+, everything bigger on 2+ and merely strip the HP on a 6 instead of immobilized on top of it.

Bam, simple fix.

 Jackal wrote:
Except to solve a problem you need a solution for everyone.

Not a solution for a few that further gimps the other armies.



Saying grav is needed for reason X or Y is crap, as it simply makes a few armies with access to it better and continues the power creep.
It's just killing one big issue with yet another.

Yes it makes marines able to kill those problem units.
It also makes them able to kill all other units bar a few crappy ones with ease.



The armies that don't have grav then have to contend with both the WK/tide issue while also facing grav aswell.

So it's no more of a fix than it is yet another issue.
If we are binning the WK rules as it is etc then the grav needs to go with it.

Pretty much this.

Everyone saying 'We need Grav because of Riptides, Stormsurges and WKs!' needs to step back and look at what Chaos, Orks and Tyranids get to deal with such things.

Doesn't help that the 'grav' armies also get access to FREE GAK formations (looking at you Ad Mech Convocation, you guilty piece of gak) putting them even further beyond others.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Grav simply needs to wound against size like it was intended to. Swarms on 6, infantry on 5+, Bulky on 4+, very bulky on 3+, everything bigger on 2+ and merely strip the HP on a 6 instead of immobilized on top of it.

Bam, simple fix.

That's actually not a bad idea. It might need some tweaking as far as that wound chart after playtesting but not a bad idea.

Anyway, as far as knights go, my opinion on this is probably kind of biased since my armies have ways of dealing with them. Admech has haywire and grav (lol) for days, and with orks I can either powerfist it to death or just ignore it, depending on the type of knight. I'd say around 1500 is a good start, but you do need to let your opponent ahead of time that you're bringing one.

I get everyone to tell me their lists and refuse to fight anything that I think could be a problem for what I want to play.

I think ban on heavies come down to people wanting to play what they like and getting mad it sucks. I notice a lot more eldar tau and space marines complain about everything.

Where as an ex ork player who liked flash gits I got use to playing things that suck and against things that are just better. Times change people.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Grav simply needs to wound against size like it was intended to. Swarms on 6, infantry on 5+, Bulky on 4+, very bulky on 3+, everything bigger on 2+ and merely strip the HP on a 6 instead of immobilized on top of it.

Bam, simple fix.

This would indeed be a clear improvement and would make more sense. It is completely absurd that a thing you pay points for (armour) can become a liability. Terminators were bad enough without bs like that.

I like the wound on size thing. and it'd be easy to change for 8th edition as well given grav is a USR.

Gonna have to say 2k or over. At 2.5k an opponent probably has enough tools to handle one well enough or a baneblade variant.

Of course i play dark eldar and the only time i see vehicles is when somebody brings guard or a super heavy. Super heavies terrify me and so far i don't go above 2k points.

 mmzero252 wrote:
I typically bring one every time I go out to play, but I will only field it in a 2000 point game unless the other person brings one in a lower point match. We had a WWE Knight off one game and it was hilarious. The knights were only allowed to combat each other until one died.

Otherwise I keep it in reserve for the resident Necron cheese player (this guy just can't make a list that doesn't have 4 C'tan and his monolith. AND his tesseract vault). Or the Tau guy that frequently has been bringing a riptide wing and a stormsurge to 1500 points.

I bring a Knight to balance power. I play Sisters of Battle and don't run the singular competitve list, so a Knight can easily balance out the rest of my girls without being too good.

Since this tread has been answered on page 1, this is way far back and off topic, but a necron player is not cheesy if he brings 4 C'tan, a monolith and a vault (probably ranking in the very bottom end of our codex)

Sorry, had a chuckle at that. A basic CAD with all that in it, without the conclave of the burning one formation, is 1950 bare bones, with 1x lord (naked) and 2x 5 immortal squads. Are you seriously having trouble fighting that list?

Sure 5 c'tan powers a turn means some randomness is removed, but you still only have 4 MC, 11 foot troops and two AV14 vehicles ( with one that ALWAYS dies to a single melta shot)

Im sorry dude, this just blew me away. I cant think of an army that wouldn't table this every time it goes onto the field.

As somebody who plans on using two at some point, I don't actually think Imperial knights are OP. They die to a lucky lascannon shot. A single shot.

NivlacSupreme wrote:
As somebody who plans on using two at some point, I don't actually think Imperial knights are OP. They die to a lucky lascannon shot. A single shot.

You mean two lucky shots.

Martel732 wrote:

NivlacSupreme wrote:
As somebody who plans on using two at some point, I don't actually think Imperial knights are OP. They die to a lucky lascannon shot. A single shot.

You mean two lucky shots.

I thought an explode result was an instant kill?

Admittedly I only learned how vehicle damage worked yesterday.

Super heavy walkers and tanks only take D3 additional hull points from an explodes. Otherwise, they'd be totally useless instead of merely average. On the other hand, T6 MCs of all types don't give feth what you shoot them with.

Only in 40K can you shoot this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrannosaurus

with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams

and have the target laugh off the impact.

Hell, the IG can NUKE an MC. Result: one wound. Feth MCs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_munition One wound

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAU-8_Avenger One wound

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun One wound

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_(nuclear_device) One wound

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba One wound

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimatter_weapon One wound

Only in 40k?
This guy and all his buddies are sad that you would say such a thing

Arson Fire wrote:
Only in 40k?
This guy and all his buddies are sad that you would say such a thing

Spoiler:

After his 98 effort I was sad for him.

Martel732 wrote:
Super heavy walkers and tanks only take D3 additional hull points from an explodes. Otherwise, they'd be totally useless instead of merely average. On the other hand, T6 MCs of all types don't give feth what you shoot them with.

Only in 40K can you shoot this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrannosaurus

with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams

and have the target laugh off the impact.

Hell, the IG can NUKE an MC. Result: one wound. Feth MCs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_munition One wound

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAU-8_Avenger One wound

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun One wound

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_(nuclear_device) One wound

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba One wound

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimatter_weapon One wound

Not to be pedantic, but I was looking down that list and agreeing until I hit the GAU-8. Because you know that’s going to be closer to an assault cannon (or more probably an vulcan mega bolter or avenger bolt cannon or something like that)

The one big boom=1 wound, not mater how big the boom is, that’s an issue. But that’s a high ROF weapon right there.

The whole back half of that list are D weapons, so only 1 wound on a bad roll.

SJ

Martel732 wrote:
Super heavy walkers and tanks only take D3 additional hull points from an explodes. Otherwise, they'd be totally useless instead of merely average. On the other hand, T6 MCs of all types don't give feth what you shoot them with.

Only in 40K can you shoot this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrannosaurus

with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams

and have the target laugh off the impact.

Hell, the IG can NUKE an MC. Result: one wound. Feth MCs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_munition One wound

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAU-8_Avenger One wound

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun One wound

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_(nuclear_device) One wound

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba One wound

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimatter_weapon One wound

However by all respects, that same dreaded T6 critter stomping about...

Falls down dead because a guy with a glowy sword runs up and gibs him while shouting Magic Missile!

Klowny wrote:

Since this tread has been answered on page 1, this is way far back and off topic, but a necron player is not cheesy if he brings 4 C'tan, a monolith and a vault (probably ranking in the very bottom end of our codex)

Sorry, had a chuckle at that. A basic CAD with all that in it, without the conclave of the burning one formation, is 1950 bare bones, with 1x lord (naked) and 2x 5 immortal squads. Are you seriously having trouble fighting that list?

Sure 5 c'tan powers a turn means some randomness is removed, but you still only have 4 MC, 11 foot troops and two AV14 vehicles ( with one that ALWAYS dies to a single melta shot)

Im sorry dude, this just blew me away. I cant think of an army that wouldn't table this every time it goes onto the field.

You clearly have absolutely zero experience with Sisters of Battle. They have no answer to enormously powerful creatures with ridiculous saves and range that cost far too few points.

But as you said, it ranks very low. Yeah now try literally anything else my army has access to against stronger lists. I have a very strong reason to refuse that jackass any games.

 Nevelon wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Super heavy walkers and tanks only take D3 additional hull points from an explodes. Otherwise, they'd be totally useless instead of merely average. On the other hand, T6 MCs of all types don't give feth what you shoot them with.

Only in 40K can you shoot this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrannosaurus

with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams

and have the target laugh off the impact.

Hell, the IG can NUKE an MC. Result: one wound. Feth MCs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_munition One wound

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAU-8_Avenger One wound

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun One wound

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_(nuclear_device) One wound

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba One wound

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimatter_weapon One wound

Not to be pedantic, but I was looking down that list and agreeing until I hit the GAU-8. Because you know that’s going to be closer to an assault cannon (or more probably an vulcan mega bolter or avenger bolt cannon or something like that)

The one big boom=1 wound, not mater how big the boom is, that’s an issue. But that’s a high ROF weapon right there.

I was being hyperbolic. But that's a good point. Why can the US military put the GAU-8 on an airplane, but the space marines only get "assault" cannons?

I'd say 1250 or above. If they can't handle AV 12 at that point, they are going to have problems anyway.

 mmzero252 wrote:

Klowny wrote:

Since this tread has been answered on page 1, this is way far back and off topic, but a necron player is not cheesy if he brings 4 C'tan, a monolith and a vault (probably ranking in the very bottom end of our codex)

Sorry, had a chuckle at that. A basic CAD with all that in it, without the conclave of the burning one formation, is 1950 bare bones, with 1x lord (naked) and 2x 5 immortal squads. Are you seriously having trouble fighting that list?

Sure 5 c'tan powers a turn means some randomness is removed, but you still only have 4 MC, 11 foot troops and two AV14 vehicles ( with one that ALWAYS dies to a single melta shot)

Im sorry dude, this just blew me away. I cant think of an army that wouldn't table this every time it goes onto the field.

You clearly have absolutely zero experience with Sisters of Battle. They have no answer to enormously powerful creatures with ridiculous saves and range that cost far too few points.

But as you said, it ranks very low. Yeah now try literally anything else my army has access to against stronger lists. I have a very strong reason to refuse that jackass any games.

You are right my friend, I have never seen the Sisters in person :(. However, the enormously powerful creatures roll random powers after they specified a target. So your squads can get hit with a single D shot. 1 model dies. You can focus a Baneblade and 2/3 of the profiles dont work. Its completely random. They have access only to a 4++ save, no reanimation protocols? The tesseract vault is AV14 all around, but focused melta will kill it very quickly. It costs 550 points. Thats expensive for such a random unit. Your army has no access to vehicle killing weaponry? I dont mean to be ignorant I have just never seen much about them

Basic melta is the strongest thing that sisters get access to. Sadly that won't work if you cannot get within 6 inches with the most available melta. Even with outflanking, the necrons just demolish an immolator filled with 4 meltas and then smash every girl inside instantly. Celestine is now pretty much the only reliable necron vehicle killing tool, but even then she can die rather easily with hordes of gauss or said D weapons from C'tan.

I've never had a single ounce of fun playing necrons. Therefore I just refuse them games. I play to have fun. They can go play people that are enjoying the power creep as well if they want a game.