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Entropy cannons are amazing!

And against most targets are better than a lascannon.

Everyone is allowed their own opinion but the maths don't favor Entropy Cannons at all vs Spitters. Firing 2 shots with BS4 (5 if you move!) at only str8 that are NOT plague weapons only to get a d6 damage roll is like the defintion of underwhelming. The comment on out damaging a quad las predator also doesn't seem to mesh with math. Preds hit on BS3 and have str9. They are going to out damage the PBCs against almost all targets you want to be shooting anti tank weapons against.

Agree on the magnetizing so you can swap at your pleasure... Especially when you score about three hits with the E cannons a game

Has anyone done much with PBC rushdown? Start them around a Gnarlmaw with spitters, have a Poxbringer and Horticulous with them, Advance, sow another FG, deathstar up the table

 lindsay40k wrote:
Has anyone done much with PBC rushdown? Start them around a Gnarlmaw with spitters, have a Poxbringer and Horticulous with them, Advance, sow another FG, deathstar up the table

The PBCs can already advance and fire the spitters. Would you plan to make assaults with them?

Couldn't you run FBDs with Fleshmowers and make some assaults? Or keep them with spitters and skip the FGM unless its serving another purpose.

I like the idea of PBCs, FBDs and such blazing up the middle of the board protecting a couple of princes. It's been a reliable strat for me without even adding in daemons. I imagine adding in Daemon support would make it even better.

 Brymm wrote:
Everyone is allowed their own opinion but the maths don't favor Entropy Cannons at all vs Spitters. Firing 2 shots with BS4 (5 if you move!) at only str8 that are NOT plague weapons only to get a d6 damage roll is like the defintion of underwhelming. The comment on out damaging a quad las predator also doesn't seem to mesh with math. Preds hit on BS3 and have str9. They are going to out damage the PBCs against almost all targets you want to be shooting anti tank weapons against.

The difference between the spitters and the entropy cannons is that you don't need to move the vehicles to shoot at full power.

And if you are getting closer with those tanks people will just contact them and they'll be useless for one or two turns.

Is much much better to keep them within 36" and shot every single turn they are alive, with every single possible weapon they have until they die.

Plus against a lot of targets S8 or S9 is not a huge difference, but AP-3 or AP-4 it is.

You can't win games or tournaments relying only on math. There are synergies, deployments and movements.

This game is not "i shoot here and I win!".

And if you are getting closer with those tanks people will just contact them and they'll be useless for one or two turns.

This is my point - if you’re bringing FGs with you, you can fall back and shoot. Enemy units get hosed down with spitters, you can still fire the mortars whilst advancing, and if they try to charge you it’s just more free hits.

Biggest weakness is against other Chaos. Bloodletter Bomb or Traitor Guard can charge from out of spitter range, then Fiends can tag the PBCs and forbid fall back. So, this gimmick is not a TAC one - unless you adapt and prioritise accordingly

Well burning a detachment is not a huge problem, but you need 85 points for the FG just for the drones...

And most important is, is that really changing having in a list full of flamers, 6 more flamers, or 6 lascannons (or similar) to threaten the enemy tanks even from afar?

 Brymm wrote:
Everyone is allowed their own opinion but the maths don't favor Entropy Cannons at all vs Spitters. Firing 2 shots with BS4 (5 if you move!) at only str8 that are NOT plague weapons only to get a d6 damage roll is like the defintion of underwhelming. The comment on out damaging a quad las predator also doesn't seem to mesh with math. Preds hit on BS3 and have str9. They are going to out damage the PBCs against almost all targets you want to be shooting anti tank weapons against.

A PBC has an average of 5.5 shots though and the mortar is a plague weapon. Against T7 the PBC is actually better at killing vehicles, against T8 it's slightly worse. The math should be somewhere near the beginning of this thread.

Comparing entropy to the spitter PBC really doesn't make sense at all, because that simple weapon swap turns it into a completely different vehicle - kind of like comparing a defiler to a land raider.

 Master Chief VF wrote:

 Brymm wrote:
Everyone is allowed their own opinion but the maths don't favor Entropy Cannons at all vs Spitters. Firing 2 shots with BS4 (5 if you move!) at only str8 that are NOT plague weapons only to get a d6 damage roll is like the defintion of underwhelming. The comment on out damaging a quad las predator also doesn't seem to mesh with math. Preds hit on BS3 and have str9. They are going to out damage the PBCs against almost all targets you want to be shooting anti tank weapons against.

The difference between the spitters and the entropy cannons is that you don't need to move the vehicles to shoot at full power.

And if you are getting closer with those tanks people will just contact them and they'll be useless for one or two turns.

Is much much better to keep them within 36" and shot every single turn they are alive, with every single possible weapon they have until they die.

Plus against a lot of targets S8 or S9 is not a huge difference, but AP-3 or AP-4 it is.

You can't win games or tournaments relying only on math. There are synergies, deployments and movements.

This game is not "i shoot here and I win!".

This is quite ill informed - almost every tournament list i know of that runs PBC is with flamers....

 Master Chief VF wrote:
You can't win games or tournaments relying only on math. There are synergies, deployments and movements.

Didn't you just argue for the entropy cannon based on math?

The spitter PBC is without doubt the more powerful version of the two - but it's job is not to kill things (though the spitters are really great weapons), it's job is to deny area and negate units by charging them.
It can tank dedicated close combat units worth many times their points. If your enemy drops a bloodletter bomb on them, you have just successfully negated his bloodletter bomb for multiple turns by buying a 140 point tank.
You can just stick a PBC to a unit of shining spears and force the eldar player to spend CP to charge with them. Bonk a pair of LRBT to switch them off. Tie up a unit of boyz, forcing them to fight a tank they cannot wound well at all.

This is much more likely to win games than an artillery tank with slightly above average firepower.

And at risk of beating a dead horse, but the PBC kitted out to sit back and shoot isn't very good at it. Hitting on 4s (or 5s if moving with a degrading profile) for a tank whose purpose is to stay back and shoot is terrible. You need to use command points to be able to move and shoot without penalty. I could see this argument if it was BS3 like any other marine type vehicle, but it isn't.

Now, the codex does have a tanky unit without a degrading profile that can hit on 3s, provide a cover buff, fire off melta and missle shots and move and shoot without penalty. The trilobe of Myphitic Blight Haulers comes in at a hefty 351 but is 24 t7 wounds, 3+/5+/5++ and "degrades" to BS4 after 8 wounds. The unit puts out 3 missiles and 3 multimeltas along with 3d3 st6 ap1 d1 shots. They have close combat attacks, can be targeted with blades for close combat, have plague weapons, have a -1 to hit in CC,... These things put out very decent and accurate long ranged fire, support surrounding models, and are good at tying up and actually killing stuff in combat.

With all of that said, other than the fact that they're hard to kill, I've been generally underwhelmed by their fire power also.

I guess what I'm getting at is that as a long range fire platform, the PBC isn't the best choice.

BS really doesn't matter if it adds up to the same amount of damage as another tank with higher BS but less shots/AP.

 Jidmah wrote:
BS really doesn't matter if it adds up to the same amount of damage as another tank with higher BS but less shots/AP.

Yeah copy that, but in the case of the 4las pred, it doesn't either.

What do you think of this heavy marines Poxwalkers list that placed 4th at a major itc event?

https://scontent-cdt1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/64649949_10219088250933614_5367725666978496512_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_oc=AQlluBGGu0rdOLP4z084qXQEYr90youyun6uXDWQrUmXlePvng5D0dBgx17-oaIkDkf4kAhotGL08FNhoymn_PwN&_nc_ht=scontent-cdt1-1.xx&oh=f0299b15565efc1b50cdc6e629d57b7d&oe=5D81CB94

Apparently the owner of the list put some crawler and levia backfield and push the 40 Pox forward with 20 plagues marines shielded by cloud of flies behind. With blades of putrefaction thats 15 16 attacks that wound on 2 + and get mortalwounds. During the movement they shoot 40 shots per turn to clear some chaff.

Interesting!
Lots of similar lists use 10 blightlords instead of the PMs due to way higher survival vs all types of weapons, but if you're gonna cloud of flies anyways, that survival is wasted. I do think the blightlords are way scarier in combat with the axes plus blades and votlw. Same number of attacks with WAY better weapons.

I think that I'm going to convert my DG model that came with an icon and replace the icon with either a weapon or some kind of mutation, as someone told me that the icons aren't worth how much they cost in points.

Sarevokk wrote:
What do you think of this heavy marines Poxwalkers list that placed 4th at a major itc event?

https://scontent-cdt1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/64649949_10219088250933614_5367725666978496512_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_oc=AQlluBGGu0rdOLP4z084qXQEYr90youyun6uXDWQrUmXlePvng5D0dBgx17-oaIkDkf4kAhotGL08FNhoymn_PwN&_nc_ht=scontent-cdt1-1.xx&oh=f0299b15565efc1b50cdc6e629d57b7d&oe=5D81CB94

Apparently the owner of the list put some crawler and levia backfield and push the 40 Pox forward with 20 plagues marines shielded by cloud of flies behind. With blades of putrefaction thats 15 16 attacks that wound on 2 + and get mortalwounds. During the movement they shoot 40 shots per turn to clear some chaff.

Huh, I have the models to field that list. I'm going to try that next time I run DG.

Maybe it was already discussed many times but can't find it in the discussion.

I keep reading lists with plague marines equipped with blight launchers. Are those really better than plasma, considering Rapid Fire at 18"?


edit:
treat me as a dumb, why is it true? :-D

Yes, they are, even more so when an arch-contaminator is involved.

 Jidmah wrote:
Yes, they are, even more so when an arch-contaminator is involved.

So if I run 2x7 marines with 2x blight launchers each, with an arch-contaminator chaos lord near to them... is it a good choice?

You can’t make an efficient gunner PBC because the EC only has 36” range, and you commit to using Daemonforge before rolling the number of shots on your mortar. Rerolling three shots at is rarely worth it, DF is for Defilers and Maulers and Lord of Skulls to trample with, and Lords of Skulls and twin gun Decimators to blaze away with loads of shots.

DamonRafael wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Yes, they are, even more so when an arch-contaminator is involved.

So if I run 2x7 marines with 2x blight launchers each, with an arch-contaminator chaos lord near to them... is it a good choice?

I think running 5 man units with double BL and plasma champ is good. Like 4 of them near the arch contaminator prince, with the helm for extended range. You're rerolling hits of 1s and all wounds with the launchers. 16 of those shots is pretty scary. Then again 4 squads like that cost 444 pts... So, I dunno. I've had success running something like that but it still feels inefficient.

Special weapons overload could be fun! Double battalion with 6 minimum squads for 12 blight launchers and 6 plasma guns. That seems good and feels very Death Guard-y.

Blight launchers are a very good weapon. They aren't as good against cover, especially when playing Cities of Death, but even then you have the advantage of D3 damage, and Plague weapons against Plasma.

I converted one of my Aspiring Champion models (the one based on the Vrosh Tattersoul model), getting rid of the knife and replace it with the simple clenched fist piece found in the main DG box. The back of the hand that's facing outward is a bit flat and undetailed, so it looks kind of awkward. I was thinking of having it maybe holding the head of a dead enemy, like that of a Space Marine, or maybe just brandishing a nurgling upside down. The axe will be a bubotic axe and I'll just keep the meltagun as is.

I'm really hopeful that sometime soon, we'll get a Death Guard Apocalypse boxset with as many and as diverse of models as we get in the CSM box.

I've seen some people say that the DG hellbrute has been FAQ'd to be able to take 2 power scourges. Is this true? I haven't been able to find this info.

So many varied opinions on PBC’s (as expected really).
I have one proper kit so could magnetise that one.

But I also have two that will be conversions (from a Manticores Forge Father vehicle if you know it), so I’m limited to the weapons that I have on the sides.
Have I think two spare lots of Plague Spitters so can outfit all three with those. Maybe have some Entropy cannons somewhere..
But doubtful on a magnetising option for all of them..

Danny76 wrote:
So many varied opinions on PBC’s (as expected really).
I have one proper kit so could magnetise that one.

But I also have two that will be conversions (from a Manticores Forge Father vehicle if you know it), so I’m limited to the weapons that I have on the sides.
Have I think two spare lots of Plague Spitters so can outfit all three with those. Maybe have some Entropy cannons somewhere..
But doubtful on a magnetising option for all of them..

The general consensus of competitive players (and most of those who have actually used these units routinely) is that flamers are superior - for a number of reasons identified above. If you are unsure - go spitters. There is a minority arguing for Entropy - which may be largely due to mono-DG lack of anti armor options... That said if you love the fluff or feel inclined towards building a list specifically around Entropy nothing is to stop you - but just keep in mind you may not be getting the most out of your points...

Danny76 wrote:
So many varied opinions on PBC’s (as expected really).
I have one proper kit so could magnetise that one.

But I also have two that will be conversions (from a Manticores Forge Father vehicle if you know it), so I’m limited to the weapons that I have on the sides.
Have I think two spare lots of Plague Spitters so can outfit all three with those. Maybe have some Entropy cannons somewhere..
But doubtful on a magnetising option for all of them..

How do you plan on using the PBCs? I am asking because I know players that will make a list, then when it comes to actually playing a game, they decide at that moment what they want the unit to do when they deploy it! It seems crazy and a clearly weak strategy, but people in fact, do this.

I used to do this.

I used to read the mission pack for the first time when I got to a table at an event.

I used to have to read my codex at the table for almost every stat on my own units.

I am typing all of this because your answer about what to build relies solely on what you want to use your PBCs to do. The two guns are not similar in the least and are capable of very different things. Figure out what you want the model to do and arm it for that.

 Brymm wrote:
I am typing all of this because your answer about what to build relies solely on what you want to use your PBCs to do. The two guns are not similar in the least and are capable of very different things. Figure out what you want the model to do and arm it for that.

This.

1d4chan states that one way to make Mortarion an even greater death machine is to put him next to a GUO with a bell. Is this a valid strategy? Also, when it comes to the various elite units, I think that I'll ultimately get one of each for now to see how they work and which combinations are the best.