Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Ahhh
There's a special rule on the datasheet

Would be nice if I learned how to read huh? Thank you very much for pointing out the obvious.

 gwarsh41 wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Ahhh
There's a special rule on the datasheet

Would be nice if I learned how to read huh? Thank you very much for pointing out the obvious.

Happens to the best of us

SilverAlien wrote:

I'm just talking from a point efficiency stand point, most of our unique models aren't very good. A number also have trap options, features which seem useful but, if utilized, often make the unit weaker overall, due to the way it must be used. Poxwalkers+typhus, the hauler escorting slow infantry or being taken in sets of three, plague marines being deceptively fragile, the crawler being placed without LoS, deathshroud teleporting in, the list goes on but so many things in our army just don't seem to be functioning correctly, or outright were designed to not function correctly.

I'm sure it'll be fixed eventually, but at the moment most of our army doesn't function very cohesively. Which is a shame because it does have potential, a lot of the new units just need either rule or point alterations pretty badly.

I absolutely agree with everything you said except the part about Typhus with Poxwalkers and the durability of Plague Marines. I think both Plague Marines and Poxwalkers need a slight cost reduction to bring them in line with their competitors but I don't think you are handicapping yourself drastically just by using them. One squad of Plague Marines is fine and poxwalkers mixed with ranged cultists are too. Hellbrutes not having DR bugs me more then either of those TBH.

I'd add Hellbrutes / possessed not having DR, Plague Surgeons being trash tier, Sorcerer being completely useless next to Plaguecaster, and Tallyman / Blightspawn not having at least plague knifes to things that I would like to see addressed along with what you already mentioned. The more I've played the more obvious the conclusion is that the only thing in the codex that is "god awful wtf was GW thinking when they made this absolute garbage" is the plague surgeon. Any other issues with the book can be fixed with tweaks (like you said points efficiency) which hopefully chapter approved will bring.

SilverAlien wrote:


We've also done the math, it's better value against toughness 7 vehicles for its cost and only a bit worse versus toughness 8. Yes the BS skill makes it look worse, but it's also rocking 1-2 extra shots compared to a las predator on average and has the point decrease. Not to mention how much tougher it is, the point of toughness, extra wound, DR, and the 5+ invulnerable.

I'll be honest, if you aren't finding the blightcrawler impressive I would probably move back to normal a CSM. It's one of the only good things we get that normal CSM doesn't. That and blight lord terminators being absurdly tough.

Totally agree with SilverAlien! The immense resillience makes this a no-brainer for me.

Here are some math posts I posted made earlier, so you guys don't have to go through the thread:

Milkshaker wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

Predators are, without a doubt, better anti tank for their points than plagueburst crawlers.

On what math is this based? for instance (please correct me if I'm wrong, my math isn't always that great):

VS rhino (1 round of shooting, stationary):
____________2,66667 hits
____________1,77778 succesful wound rolls
____________0,29693 succesful saves (0,1667 saves per wound * 1,7778 wounds = 0,29693 succesful saves)
this leaves___ 1,48182 unsaved wounds (1,7778 wounds - 0,29693 succesful saves)
damage_____ 5,18519 damage dealt (1,48182 unsaved wounds * 3,5 average damage of a D6)

With the points of a laspred, this is 0,0273 wounds per point spent.

plagueburst crawler with 2 ectoplasm cannons, plagueburst mortar, heavy slugger: an average of 4,4815 damage dealt in a single round
using the same technique for calculating wounds/damage as the calculation above:

2x ectoplasm:____________________________________2,3333 damage dealt after saves
1x plagueburst mortar with 3.5 shots (reroll 1 to wound):__1,8148 damage dealt after saves
1x heavy slugger:_________________________________0,3333 damage dealt after saves
total damage:____________________________________4,4815

With the total points of this plagueburst crawler, that means an effectiveness of 0,0287 wounds per point spent.

This changes however, when targetting toughness 8. In that case, the predator wins out. Against toughness 7 though, the PBC seems more efficient points-wise to me (and I believe that I see more T7 or less than T8 or more).

and another on arch contaminator:

Milkshaker wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

Milkshaker wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

Predators are, without a doubt, better anti tank for their points than plagueburst crawlers.

On what math is this based? for instance (please correct me if I'm wrong, my math isn't always that great):

This changes however, when targetting toughness 8. In that case, the predator wins out. Against toughness 7 though, the PBC seems more efficient points-wise to me (and I believe that I see more T7 or less than T8 or more).

Basically it was just a ballpark estimate looking a few different scenarios. I also included a chaos lord (with arch contaminator for the crawlers) which shifts it as well.

In short, toughness 7 sv 3+ no invulnerable is the best possible situation for the crawler compared to the predator. If it's facing an enemy with a 5+ invulnerable or a 4+ save, the extra AP from the entropy cannons is lost. If it's facing toughness 8, it takes a big hit on both guns. If there is a negative BS modifier, it hurts the crawler more. So it does, in part, depend on what you are facing, but the predator outperforms the crawler in damage per point in the widest variety of situations.

Well, a chaos lord with arch-contaminator changes things around again:
A PBC does 4,0023 damage on a land raider ( pred does 4,84) which makes the effectiveness per point spent for the pred 0,0255 and for the PBC 0,0257. against an imperial knight the pred will do 6,05 damage and the PBC 5,128. this makes the effectiveness per point spent for the pred 0,0318 and the PBC 0,0330.

Keep in mind, the effectiveness per points spent doesn't take the cost of the lord into account, and the PBC benefits more from him for sure (reroll ones and arch-contaminator)

Negative BS mods will have a larger impact on the PBC for sure, though.

If you're having a chaos lord with arch-contaminator anyway, the PBC seems like a better idea to me. Otherwise, if facing a lot of T8, the pred's offensive output is much better.

Hope this helps with the PBC vs pred debate. (PS I pre-ordered 3 PBC's )

 Raphael the Raven wrote:
I absolutely agree with everything you said except the part about Typhus with Poxwalkers and the durability of Plague Marines. I think both Plague Marines and Poxwalkers need a slight cost reduction to bring them in line with their competitors but I don't think you are handicapping yourself drastically just by using them. One squad of Plague Marines is fine and poxwalkers mixed with ranged cultists are too. Hellbrutes not having DR bugs me more then either of those TBH

I admit I've soften on PM a little, but I still don't really see them doing much for us as a ranged unit. Only being able to grab two guns sours me on them for most weapons. Plasma is the one we mainly use at 3, and while they are cost effective I think I generally prefer our blightlords for plasma duty. PM get more plasma for cost (about 6 plasma guns for every 5 the blightlords can use) but being able to drop in wherever with the 18" RF is wonderful and I dislike footslogging plasma PM. We can toss a combi flamer or melta on the champion for triple melta/triple flamer/belcher. So those are options still. Not sure either is super appealing, melta I've found meh and flamers aren't actually benefitting from our CT.

What I do like PM a lot more for is melee. With tallyman, two flails, and the rest knives, our PM can clear infantry pretty fast. We've got better melee support overall with tallyman rerolling all misses, the flail being the best weapon PM have access to the and the knives being better bolters up close. I still like one larger unit for grenades, but I could see a couple smaller units as well at as this point. They are superior to cultists for damage and, with morale factored in, ballpark same toughness depending on what your enemy brings. Plus, you only really care about the flail dudes and maybe sarge.

Solar Shock wrote:

broxus wrote:

Ecdain wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Always start at 20 so there's no problem

Seriously tho, don't split hairs. The rule tells you to add a poxwalker, no limits are imposed. Max size is only relevant during list building

Nono this is not splitting hairs, this is a legitimate question as there is literally nothing else in the game that lets you go over maximum squad size(even horrors only replace themselves for the same number, but they have to pay for it). I actually want this to work but that is a pretty big question that needs to be clarified. Starting size and max size are very different phrases.

Just follow the RAW and you will be fine. You are trying to add rules that don’t exist on the data sheet. You have no limits to how high your pox walker squads can go. If you can get them in combat.

I agree. FAQ states can go above squad starting size. You can start the squad at Max unit size, thus; by being able to go over starting size and starting size can equal max size, you can go over max size. Im pretty sure that is the exact rule GW were trying to imply. Even if they did a classic GW goffy FAQ clarity

So take it as RAW and add as many poxwalkers as possible. If pox spam becomes too prevalent, then maybe they will FAQ it the other way, but until then lets not hamper ourselves!

The only thing that makes poxwalkers even close to worth their 6pt cost is they can go above their unit size. If they lost that they would be a terrible option.

Adding to the discussion about the PBC Vs Predators - I really think that the Entropy cannons and the mortar are a trap - it's not a dedicated tank killer like a Predator is. Stick to the stock Flamer loadout and move it up the field. It's dirt cheap for how obnoxiously resilient it is - and has two S7 AP-1 flamers... Anything it hits with the mortar is just a bonus.

 Dedwoods42 wrote:
Adding to the discussion about the PBC Vs Predators - I really think that the Entropy cannons and the mortar are a trap - it's not a dedicated tank killer like a Predator is. Stick to the stock Flamer loadout and move it up the field. It's dirt cheap for how obnoxiously resilient it is - and has two S7 AP-1 flamers... Anything it hits with the mortar is just a bonus.

I'm not sure if it's a trap, wounds per point they seem quite efficient (see my calculations above). I do always field them in 3's though, just because you can split the entropy cannons and the mortars if needed that way, without losing their punch (because you have enough of both of them to do significant damage to your targets)

Although I must admit that the idea of the 2 flamer PBC is something that's been on my mind for a while now.

Yeah, the PBC kills tanks with the entropy cannons+mortar far more efficiently than it kills infantry with the plague spitters. Plaguespitters are 17 points each vs the 20 point entropy cannons so you don't even get much of a discount on the model as a whole, and moving forward every turn just makes the main mortar more useless, hitting on a 5+

IMHO the entropy cannon is a no-brainer upgrade. It gives you some anti-tank capability so you can turn the PBC into a sort of support tank.

 Dedwoods42 wrote:
Adding to the discussion about the PBC Vs Predators - I really think that the Entropy cannons and the mortar are a trap - it's not a dedicated tank killer like a Predator is. Stick to the stock Flamer loadout and move it up the field. It's dirt cheap for how obnoxiously resilient it is - and has two S7 AP-1 flamers... Anything it hits with the mortar is just a bonus.

Well if you are moving then your mortar is hitting on 5+ meaning it becomes a waste. Not to mention once the PBC is in combat it is pretty useless. If you are going to go for the dual plaguespitters then I would recommend a bloat drone. Since the drone can fly it is far better at harassing people with their flamer and still very tough. Not to mention since it can fly it can get over screening units and kill characters.

broxus wrote:

 Dedwoods42 wrote:
Adding to the discussion about the PBC Vs Predators - I really think that the Entropy cannons and the mortar are a trap - it's not a dedicated tank killer like a Predator is. Stick to the stock Flamer loadout and move it up the field. It's dirt cheap for how obnoxiously resilient it is - and has two S7 AP-1 flamers... Anything it hits with the mortar is just a bonus.

Well if you are moving then your mortar is hitting on 5+ meaning it becomes a waste. Not to mention once the PBC is in combat it is pretty useless. If you are going to go for the dual plaguespitters then I would recommend a bloat drone. Since the drone can fly it is far better at harassing people with their flamer and still very tough. Not to mention since it can fly it can get over screening units and kill characters.

It can also lock up units like devastators and devastator centurions that are hiding on the upper floors of buildings in CC because it can fly. Then it can fall back 1" the following turn, shoot and charge again. A Crawler can't reach them.

Anyway, point for point they have about the same firepower against most things (except T8 and 9), but since the Crawler is about twice as durable point for point I really think the Crawler wins out above the Predator Annihilator most of the time. Just put it down in such a way that is as safe from assault as possible while being within 36" from anything it wants to shoot, hold still as much as you can and let loose. The Crawler is a dedicated long range fire support unit, not a fast harassing unit like the Plaguespitter Bloatdrone.

Pandabeer wrote:


It can also lock up units like devastators and devastator centurions that are hiding on the upper floors of buildings in CC because it can fly. Then it can fall back 1" the following turn, shoot and charge again. A Crawler can't reach them.

You can't charge in the turn you fall back, but you can shoot if you have fly

I think this codex needs a detatchment of CSM to really do well. This gives you access to tide of traitors and powers like Death hex and prescience. Units like obliterators are pretty awesome too.

I used a blob of 40 shooting cultists in front of a unit of pox walkers in one of my last games. The cultists got ginned down but the unit of pox walkers reached 60. Killing them off was pretty much impossible. Bringing back the 40 strong un8t of cultists is pretty annoying.

Death hex is esssential for dealing with some armies. Obliterators give you the ability to provide backfield pressure and do a lot of damage now.

I take my predators out of CSM so that I can fill out a spearhead with those and obliterators. Just my thoughts on the matter

Supreme Command

HQ:
Nurgle Herald
Fleshy Abundance
[70]

Sorcerer
Force Axe, Warptime/Prescience
[106]

Malefic Lord
Warp Flux, Creeping Terror
[30]

Lord of War:
Mortarion
[470]

[676]

Death Guard Battalion

HQ:
Typhus
[175]

Necrosius
[120]

Elites:
Noxious Blightbringer
Plasma Pistol, Bell
[70]

Troops:
(20) Poxwalkers
[120]

(20) Cultists
Autoguns, 2x Heavy Stubber
[88]

(7) Plague Marines
2x Blight Launcher, Plasma Gun
[174]

Foetid Bloat Drone
Fleshmower, Probe
[136]

Foetid Bloat Drone
Fleshmower, Probe
[136]

[1019]

R&H Spearhead

HQ:
Malefic Lord
Warp Flux, Creeping Terror
[30]

Malefic Lord
Warp Flux, Creeping Terror
[30]

Heavy:
Earthshaker Battery
[80]

Earthshaker Battery
[80]

Earthshaker Battery
[80]

[300]

[1998] 8CP

Thoughts on this? Trying to find a way to make a list that has a solid Morty strategy, but is backed up by a good mid-table horde and some artillery.

 sennacherib wrote:
I think this codex needs a detatchment of CSM to really do well. This gives you access to tide of traitors and powers like Death hex and prescience. Units like obliterators are pretty awesome too.

I used a blob of 40 shooting cultists in front of a unit of pox walkers in one of my last games. The cultists got ginned down but the unit of pox walkers reached 60. Killing them off was pretty much impossible. Bringing back the 40 strong un8t of cultists is pretty annoying.

Death hex is esssential for dealing with some armies. Obliterators give you the ability to provide backfield pressure and do a lot of damage now.

I take my predators out of CSM so that I can fill out a spearhead with those and obliterators. Just my thoughts on the matter

On the one hand I'd like to branch out to other chaos armies, but on the other hand I do want to keep my DG army fluffy so yeah... Mortarion getting a first turn charge thanks to Warptime just seems so... un-Nurgly. I like all 4 Chaos Gods though so in the end I might end up with a separate DG, WE, EC and TS army

So I was going to test out a fun, fluffy Typhus, Cultist and Pox Walker farm list. I had originally written in the big 40 man blob of cultists, in front of 3 units of 20 pox walkers, and Typhus.

An easy sounding approach, but all depends on getting first turn and activating Stratagems. Since dedicated Alpha Strike lists have fewer drops anyway, would splitting the Cultists into 4 min sized units work out better for morale tests? Currently my list has 10 drops.

Anyone seen any ETC mono DG buildes?

em_en_oh_pee, why the herald over Epidemius? It would seem the army wide buffs would add more overall value to your demons than a herald. The herald's buff is limited by range and a slow move speed vs. the buff being army wide. Fleshy Abundance, while great, is only once per game round, whilst Epi's aura is active at all times. Over the course of 5 game rounds I see the difference being substantial.

Hi friends! I'm burning in doubt, after a couple of really sad games i still can't choose between this 2 lists:

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Death Guard) [79 PL, 1496pts] ++

+ HQ [18 PL, 355pts] +

Daemon Prince of Nurgle [9 PL, 180pts]: Daemonic axe [10pts], Fugaris' Helm, Putrescent Vitality, Wings [1 PL, 24pts]

Typhus [9 PL, 175pts]: Blades of Putrefaction, Miasma of Pestilence

+ Troops [16 PL, 295pts] +

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun [36pts]
Cultist Champion [4pts]: Autogun

Plague Marines [7 PL, 135pts]
Plague Champion [33pts]: Plaguesword [1pts], Plasma gun [13pts]
2x Plague Marine w/ boltgun [38pts]
Plague Marine w/ Special Weapon [32pts]: Plasma gun [13pts]
Plague Marine w/ Special Weapon [32pts]: Plasma gun [13pts]

Poxwalkers [6 PL, 120pts]: 20x Poxwalker [120pts]

+ Elites [21 PL, 367pts] +

Blightlord Terminators [14 PL, 240pts]
Blightlord Terminator [45pts]: Bubotic Axe [5pts], Combi-bolter [2pts]
Blightlord Terminator [45pts]: Bubotic Axe [5pts], Combi-bolter [2pts]
Blightlord Terminator [57pts]: Blight launcher [14pts], Bubotic Axe [5pts]
Blightlord Terminator [48pts]: Flail of Corruption [10pts]
Blightlord Terminator Champion [45pts]: Bubotic Axe [5pts], Combi-bolter [2pts]

Helbrute [7 PL, 127pts]: Helbrute plasma cannon [30pts], Missile launcher [25pts]

+ Fast Attack [6 PL, 99pts] +

Chaos Spawn [6 PL, 99pts]: Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 33pts], Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 33pts], Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 33pts]

+ Heavy Support [18 PL, 380pts] +

Chaos Predator [9 PL, 190pts]: Twin lascannon [50pts]
Two lascannons [50pts]: 2x Lascannon [50pts]

Chaos Predator [9 PL, 190pts]: Twin lascannon [50pts]
Two lascannons [50pts]: 2x Lascannon [50pts]

OR

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Death Guard) [84 PL, 1499pts] ++

+ HQ [18 PL, 355pts] +

Daemon Prince of Nurgle [9 PL, 180pts]: Fugaris' Helm, Hellforged sword [10pts], Wings [1 PL, 24pts]

Typhus [9 PL, 175pts]

+ Troops [18 PL, 208pts] +

Chaos Cultists [6 PL, 44pts]: 10x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun [40pts]
Cultist Champion [4pts]: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [6 PL, 44pts]: 10x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun [40pts]
Cultist Champion [4pts]: Autogun

Poxwalkers [6 PL, 120pts]: 20x Poxwalker [120pts]

+ Elites [14 PL, 240pts] +

Blightlord Terminators [14 PL, 240pts]
Blightlord Terminator [45pts]: Bubotic Axe [5pts], Combi-bolter [2pts]
Blightlord Terminator [45pts]: Bubotic Axe [5pts], Combi-bolter [2pts]
Blightlord Terminator [48pts]: Flail of Corruption [10pts]
Blightlord Terminator [57pts]: Blight launcher [14pts], Bubotic Axe [5pts]
Blightlord Terminator Champion [45pts]: Bubotic Axe [5pts], Combi-bolter [2pts]

+ Fast Attack [16 PL, 316pts] +

Foetid Bloat-drone [8 PL, 158pts]: 2x Plaguespitters [34pts], Plague probe [25pts]

Foetid Bloat-drone [8 PL, 158pts]: 2x Plaguespitters [34pts], Plague probe [25pts]

+ Heavy Support [18 PL, 380pts] +

Chaos Predator [9 PL, 190pts]: Twin lascannon [50pts]
Two lascannons [50pts]: 2x Lascannon [50pts]

Chaos Predator [9 PL, 190pts]: Twin lascannon [50pts]
Two lascannons [50pts]: 2x Lascannon [50pts]




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Basically the difference is: exchanging the helbrute, 3 spawns and PMs with 2 Bloatdrones.

The first list is more frail but I have a lot of heavy shootin (helbrute with stratagem can be impressive), and for the infantry I have poxes and terminators, the Prince support the firebase and charge whoever gets too near, the problem is the defensive potential, I was multicharged by orks and it was a sh**show; AND if the opponents shoots more than me, I dont know if I can cause much problem with typhus and the terminators in order to save the game.

The second list is better all around, but is not full defensive and the drones need a turn to get close to shoot, so I risk to get the preds shot turn one and the drones turn 2, without doing any damage

What do you think?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Basically in this months I learned 4 lessons:
1-Poxwalkers have some game: against light infantry they can become a nightmare, once you reach a critical point were the damage they do is more that the one they get, for the enemy is over, since they are the only unit in the game who grows in certain situations; they need to be played in one big unit, since they benefit from a lot of buffs.
2-Daemon Prince is god: flying you can hide him avoiding damage in every situation, and strike when necessary, you need to play him carefully but he s so flexible.
3- Terminators and Typhus are resistent as they seem: but they need cover and the miasma, and they must DS in the center of the table, as they will get simply ignored otherwise; and the Flail my god, I killed 12 orks in a turn with one and the blade of Contagion power.
4- PMs seems to suck a lot, at least shooting they always disapoint me.

Vortenger wrote:
em_en_oh_pee, why the herald over Epidemius? It would seem the army wide buffs would add more overall value to your demons than a herald. The herald's buff is limited by range and a slow move speed vs. the buff being army wide. Fleshy Abundance, while great, is only once per game round, whilst Epi's aura is active at all times. Over the course of 5 game rounds I see the difference being substantial.

Not really that many Daemons to make him worth it, imo. The bonuses aren't that game-changing for this specific list.

Look into daemon engines to make Epidemius worth it. Plague Hulk, bloat drones, decimator, death guard tanks, I think the decimator too. Any big scary daemon/nurgle gets a nice oomph from it.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Look into daemon engines to make Epidemius worth it. Plague Hulk, bloat drones, decimator, death guard tanks, I think the decimator too. Any big scary daemon/nurgle gets a nice oomph from it.

Not really the direction I was taking my list. I understand the idea, but really was going for something a bit more competitive... ideally.

Thinking about the situational use of 2 PBCs to camp a backfield to midfield objective. I figure the 2 PBCs can flank the objective so enemy units can’t get close enough even in melee. Plaguespitters make charging unappetizing, and invul/DR can hold them a long time in melee. They can spend their free time bombarding hidden units. Of course that means no Entropy cannons unfortunately.

My main attack is gonna be morty with bloat drones followed by Typhus, 2-3 Plaguecasters and PMs (5x2) fitted with 2 Blightlaunchers and the rest for Melee.

I haven’t pointed the list out yet, as I am still assembling the army.

 Raphael the Raven wrote:
I absolutely agree with everything you said except the part about Typhus with Poxwalkers and the durability of Plague Marines. I think both Plague Marines and Poxwalkers need a slight cost reduction to bring them in line with their competitors but I don't think you are handicapping yourself drastically just by using them. One squad of Plague Marines is fine and poxwalkers mixed with ranged cultists are too. Hellbrutes not having DR bugs me more then either of those TBH.

I'd add Hellbrutes / possessed not having DR, Plague Surgeons being trash tier, Sorcerer being completely useless next to Plaguecaster, and Tallyman / Blightspawn not having at least plague knifes to things that I would like to see addressed along with what you already mentioned. The more I've played the more obvious the conclusion is that the only thing in the codex that is "god awful wtf was GW thinking when they made this absolute garbage" is the plague surgeon. Any other issues with the book can be fixed with tweaks (like you said points efficiency) which hopefully chapter approved will bring.

Wait, how come Plague Surgeons are trash-tier? You'd think that re-roll 1s for DR is an improvement for survivability.

Also for the purposes of screening, which unit would be better: Poxwalkers, Cultists, or Plaguebearers?

I feel like cultists are cheaper and super snooty. A unit of 40 is 120 pts. They did quick but then you can bring them back with the tide of traitors strategem.

Backed by a unit or two of pox walkers you can use the Dead 2alk strategem and have a unit of 60 pox walkers pretty quick.

@Dr., Plague Surgeons are trash tier because the re-roll grants you roughly a 5% increase to DR rolls. That isn't impressive, even if it is pretty cheap.

@Em, Makes sense. I guess I'm just not seeing how your herald is keeping up with those fast moving daemons without summoning. If you deploy him for backline units I could see the gain, but he's slow and your backline seems to gain little from his presence. Summoning him near combat with Morty once locked in makes sense, but you couldn't have used him as an HQ then. How does he help you more than another Malefic Lord or Epi at which point?

Fleshy Abundance has pretty good range. I figure he can keep up with the horde and buff someone. Probably more efficient to run two Malefics, but that seemed too obvious. So I figured I would do a little something different. Though I could drop a Malefic and probably make room for Epi, if I wanted.

Any ideas for making possessed work?

I have the bits to make some great Nurgle possessed, but I'm not sure what they contribute.
Cloud of Flies could work, providing you have Nurglings or something up front. The tallyman would work except he's too slow. 1+ S&T is good, but it's probably better on Plague Marines.

Anything else?

So uh, just tossing out that PBCs got kinda borderline mandatory if you want any sort of armor in your list. Thanks to the new buffed shadow sword it's basically the only tank in our list (or most others) that won't get blown of the field. Or run lascannon dreads so it ends up being massive overkill. Predators basically got turned into garbage that won't last a second.