Death Guard Tactica

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**orkswubwub**

MilkmanAl wrote:
orkswubwub wrote:
MilkmanAl wrote:
I'm not a Death Guard player, but I'm curious what you guys think of the PBC spam list that's circulating. In case you haven't seen it, it's essentially 10 pbcs, epidemius, 2 poxbringers, and 2 demon princes. Just glancing through the DG codex, PBCs stood out to me as rock-hard units to spam, but this seems a little crazy.

It is far from a perfect list, but I really can't think of anything balanced that counters it effectively. Even good counters like flyer spam really don't grind through the tanks very well. They're just way too tough, especially once they hit T9, and charging them is going to hurtunless you go from outside 8". Even then, your combat unit is going to eat a ton of s7+ flamers when the tank dies or falls back.

I expect this list to make a big splash at LVO and precipitate some significant points and rules changes. What do you guys think?

I love how most of the thread breezes over probably the most relevant question for DG currently (or at least for DG opponents) with LVO approaching. Looking at the lists so far i have seen this exact list. I think this list suffers most against flyers and -1 to hit. Commander spam with fusion blasters (high movement) and altaioc flyer spam (going to -3 to hit) will probably do well against this list. The alternative is go super hard melee and eat the spewers. As intimidating as they are by math hammer on average you are only hitting 7 times, wounding 5-6, and a 3 up save will save half the damage (bringing it to 2-3 damage total per crawler per turn). This will be padded by 1-2 damage due to the nurgle locus. Granted that number adds up and there are DP and smite to worry about PLUS the mortars etc, but that is also assuming your opponent stays in range of all spewers and doesn't have enough troops to surround your PBC.
I partially agree. I'd forgotten about Commander spam, which is shameful considering my dedication to Tau, but that's actually a good counter to PBC spam. It takes roughly 16 fusion shots or 4 Commanders to down a PBC, so that should basically be 2 tanks down per turn plus some. Drones can reliably dakka down characters or maybe even plink a PBC, if no other targets are available. That seems like a favorable matchup.

Hit penalty spam won't be a big deal to PBCs due to all the flamers running around. Dark Reapers aren't really a good answer to PBCs. Fire Dragons are strong in this match, but that'd require more tailoring than most LVO compatitiors are likely to do. 10 PBCs exert enough board control that even super-fast bikes and flyers aren't going to be able to stay away from the flames particularly well.

Marine gunlines favoring lascannons or plasma might do okay. You only have a few turns before those flamers come and wreck you, though. Assuming Bobby G rerolls, you need about 12 lascannons to down each PBC. It may be a bit of a stretch to get the 24+ you'd need to reliably take out 2 of them plus some support characters per turn. This is a workable matchup for the marine player, I think, but it's one that favors DG.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

I tried to talk about this about a week ago, the groupthink in this thread is still "Why would you take spewers over awesome entropy cannonz!". I don't think you're going to find cutting edge top level competitive discussion here, this is more 'FLGS tactics'
I looked back, and that discussion is a little disappointing, to say the least. I guess I could see entropy cannons over plaguespitters if you're dead-set on just sitting your PBCs back and plinking things, but they're not really all that good in that capacity. Possibly that's the way to go if you're only running 1-2 of them? Whatever. In any event, if you've got Poxbringers and Epidemius in the mix with Arch-Contaminator, plaguespitters are pretty clearly the best option. Like I said, worst case scenario for you is falling back with your PBC in combat so the others can swarm. Hopefully the lurkers who have competition in mind pop out and contribute.

But how are the plaguespitters hitting flyers that have a 30 inch move?

**MilkmanAl**

Well, they move 9" and have a 8" range. Given how much of the board 10 of those monsters will take up, I'd say it'll be pretty hard to stay 17" away from all of them at all times. You only need to catch a typical flyer with 3-4 rounds of buffed pus flamery goodness to bring it down, and that's pretty likely to happen over the course of a couple turns. I doubt I'd go out of my way to chase a flyer down, but if one dropped into range, I'd spray all over it.

**orkswubwub**

I am not sure, I feel differently. If you are actively trying to stay out of range its very easy to just measure 18 inches from the closest PBC and attack over and over all game long. It would take you 3-4 turns to even come close to cornering the flyer who could then just fly over the PBC or ina different direction (assuming no PBC are dead 3-4 turns in...). I guess it depends on the player, but honestly it really isn't that hard - you have measuring tape

**MilkmanAl**

Eh, maybe so. Like I said earlier, I think flyers are a reasonable counter to the PBC list, but if you have enough of them to be a menace, they'll be jostling for position a fair bit. Count on a few of them getting danger close and paying the price. A couple isolated flyers in the unused segment of board probably isn't significant enough of a threat to warrant the DG player diverting his attention from wiping the rest of the opposition first, either.

**Danny slag**

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
orkswubwub wrote:
MilkmanAl wrote:
I'm not a Death Guard player, but I'm curious what you guys think of the PBC spam list that's circulating. In case you haven't seen it, it's essentially 10 pbcs, epidemius, 2 poxbringers, and 2 demon princes. Just glancing through the DG codex, PBCs stood out to me as rock-hard units to spam, but this seems a little crazy.

It is far from a perfect list, but I really can't think of anything balanced that counters it effectively. Even good counters like flyer spam really don't grind through the tanks very well. They're just way too tough, especially once they hit T9, and charging them is going to hurtunless you go from outside 8". Even then, your combat unit is going to eat a ton of s7+ flamers when the tank dies or falls back.

I expect this list to make a big splash at LVO and precipitate some significant points and rules changes. What do you guys think?

I love how most of the thread breezes over probably the most relevant question for DG currently (or at least for DG opponents) with LVO approaching. Looking at the lists so far i have seen this exact list. I think this list suffers most against flyers and -1 to hit.

I tried to talk about this about a week ago, the groupthink in this thread is still "Why would you take spewers over awesome entropy cannonz!". I don't think you're going to find cutting edge top level competitive discussion here, this is more 'FLGS tactics'

Possibly because having an army comprised of spamming 10 of one model isn't competitive, it's the opposite, it's a spammy boring list meant to require no competition. Usual tourney try-hard trash.

**Sgt. Cortez**

Danny slag wrote:
Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

I tried to talk about this about a week ago, the groupthink in this thread is still "Why would you take spewers over awesome entropy cannonz!". I don't think you're going to find cutting edge top level competitive discussion here, this is more 'FLGS tactics'

Possibly because having an army comprised of spamming 10 of one model isn't competitive, it's the opposite, it's a spammy boring list meant to require no competition. Usual tourney try-hard trash.

Indeed. Let's hope that list doesn't win or otherwize GW might hit the PBC with the nerfbat

.

**Ix_Tab**

Whilst it may seem rather tragic to many of us that anyone would wish to buy 10 PBC merely to do well in 40k tornies it takes different strokes and all that.

The list looks ok though I feel it may be improved with a couple less PBC and some bubblewrap and or more melee clearing units.
The list will require careful positioning versus some army types to avoid charges from out of LoS and pile ins/ consolidations into other PBC. Also they are vulnerable to being locked in combat. The DP should go someway to mitigating this but it seems like a weakness versus fast melee armies, particularty flying melee troops.

**MilkmanAl**

Well, like it or not, competitive play us a crucial part of the 40k landscape. In fact, these days, it's the driving force keeping the hobby afloat, in my opinion. That's an argument that has been rehashed a bajillion times and isn't for this thread, though.

In any event, dismissing the list as "tourney try-hard trash" doesn't get us anywhere. It's a list and one that is very difficult to deal with, at that. While it may be a boring army to you, those of us who enjoy competitive gaming need to figure out how to cope with it. Personally, I would/will have fun figuring out how to eke out a victory with my Tau or Dark Angels. Maybe you could contribute your thoughts on the list's function with a focus on PBCs and the interactions of daemons with chaos detachments instead of dropping in to dump on how people choose to play the game?

As I said in my first post here, I anticipate that this list will open some eyes and cause some rules and /or point cost changes. What changes do you see coming, if any? Are they warranted? If there's a more competitive tournament alternative, what is it?

**Claas**

So a Great Unclean with a Doomsday Bell brings a model back for units of Nurgle Daemons within 7". Would not a Myphitc Blight-Hauler unit be eligible for this? Now that is pretty sick.

**blackmage**

unless they FAQ any unit with DEMON and NURGLE faction keywords can benefit from things like doomsday bell.

**Jidmah**

Danny slag wrote:
Possibly because having an army comprised of spamming 10 of one model isn't competitive, it's the opposite, it's a spammy boring list meant to require no competition. Usual tourney try-hard trash.

Actually, we dismissed his argument because he didn't lose a single word about spamming PBC (the discussion was about pox walker armies with one or two PBC), the daemon codex was not released yet (not even previewed) and he simply edited all the numbers not fitting his argument out of quotes and claimed that his point was proven.

**Bach**

Looks like a new Faq came out for Daemons and Death Guard.

Looks like Daemon stratagems can only be used on Daemon faction units, so no deep striking Morty. Some Death Guard units had their Daemon keywords changed around presumably for this reason.

Death Guard's Inexorable Advance has 'Helbrute' in bold so it will now benefit things like Deredeo Dreadnoughts. Pretty cool.

**Emicrania**

Don’t we loose our dg rules for the PD blight launcher if we have a battalion with daemons?

**Halfpast_Yellow**

Jidmah wrote:
Danny slag wrote:
Possibly because having an army comprised of spamming 10 of one model isn't competitive, it's the opposite, it's a spammy boring list meant to require no competition. Usual tourney try-hard trash.

Actually, we dismissed his argument because he didn't lose a single word about spamming PBC (the discussion was about pox walker armies with one or two PBC), the daemon codex was not released yet (not even previewed) and he simply edited all the numbers not fitting his argument out of quotes and claimed that his point was proven.

We?

Even without the Daemon codex and on a 1-1 basis the point was proven

You had no rebuttal. You demanded 'mathhammer,' then didn't like the mathhammer so decided mathhammer wasn't the be all and end all.

It's not like the conversation cam't be read over again as the fellow said.

**dan2026**

What are people recommendations for Poxwalker unit sizes and general strategy.

I am planning on 2 x 20 models, supported by Typhus and maybe Necrosius too

**WindstormSCR**

blackmage wrote:
unless they FAQ any unit with DEMON and NURGLE faction keywords can benefit from things like doomsday bell.

incorrect, the FAQ only covers stratagems, not unit abilities (Epidemius, herald auras, doomsday bell, etc)

so yes, if you had a unit of 3 haulers and one was destroyed, you could doomsday bell it back to life at no reinforcement point cost. Same trick could be pulled with CSM nurgle-marked obliterators.

**Nightlord1987**

dan2026 wrote:
What are people recommendations for Poxwalker unit sizes and general strategy.

I am planning on 2 x 20 models, supported by Typhus and maybe Necrosius too

One unit 20, then I start one unit 10 as a back up, and add to it with pts remaining.

This way I have one pox in the front, and a back up Pox unit behind it depending on turn 1. I also always add in some Cultists units in too to feed the farm. Usually more cultists than pox walkers.

**Claas**

WindstormSCR wrote:
blackmage wrote:
unless they FAQ any unit with DEMON and NURGLE faction keywords can benefit from things like doomsday bell.

incorrect, the FAQ only covers stratagems, not unit abilities (Epidemius, herald auras, doomsday bell, etc)

so yes, if you had a unit of 3 haulers and one was destroyed, you could doomsday bell it back to life at no reinforcement point cost. Same trick could be pulled with CSM nurgle-marked obliterators.

Then you stick those obilterators next to a Gnarlmaw. I really wish they were not finecast.

As for the Blight-Haulers, how much would this increase their value? I know they are pricey and do not have a good weapons load-outs, but Getting a 8w daemon engine back on a 4+ is nice, and their rules are decent. I been holding off on aquiring them but I do have a GUO so this might change my mind.

**Commissar_Rex**

Claas wrote:

As for the Blight-Haulers, how much would this increase their value? I know they are pricey and do not have a good weapons load-outs, but Getting a 8w daemon engine back on a 4+ is nice, and their rules are decent. I been holding off on aquiring them but I do have a GUO so this might change my mind.

Yeah, the bell definitely makes for some interesting list ideas. Myphitic blight-haulers, plague drones, pox riders, and nurglings are all given a 50/50 shot at restoring a dead squadmember. For every turn a reduced unit starts a turn within 7" of GUO you essentially gain the following points for free. MBH- 71, PD- 17, Pox Riders- 31.5, Nurglings- 9

If you build around it, that sort of efficiency is brutal. For the MBH in particular: you're tough as nails to start with, you'll spend more time hitting on 3s, keep up more -1 to hit bubbles, and can really make your opponent feel foolish for targetting them at all. Pox riders are another great pick, staying at above 6 for the -1 to hit for even longer.

I've never even seen an MBH- anyone have good experiences?

**buddha**

Commissar_Rex wrote:
Claas wrote:

As for the Blight-Haulers, how much would this increase their value? I know they are pricey and do not have a good weapons load-outs, but Getting a 8w daemon engine back on a 4+ is nice, and their rules are decent. I been holding off on aquiring them but I do have a GUO so this might change my mind.

Yeah, the bell definitely makes for some interesting list ideas. Myphitic blight-haulers, plague drones, pox riders, and nurglings are all given a 50/50 shot at restoring a dead squadmember. For every turn a reduced unit starts a turn within 7" of GUO you essentially gain the following points for free. MBH- 71, PD- 17, Pox Riders- 31.5, Nurglings- 9

If you build around it, that sort of efficiency is brutal. For the MBH in particular: you're tough as nails to start with, you'll spend more time hitting on 3s, keep up more -1 to hit bubbles, and can really make your opponent feel foolish for targetting them at all. Pox riders are another great pick, staying at above 6 for the -1 to hit for even longer.

I've never even seen an MBH- anyone have good experiences?

I've used and seen them and they are ... not good. Low damage output, shoddy BS, and they can be tarpitted. However, like the PBC with spitters, it gets a new look with the evil nurgle tree since it can't be locked within it's aura which helps tremendously.

**Jidmah**

Hauler basically plays the same as a faster and harder to kill hellbrute with MM/Missile launcher, with less BS and WS. In units of 3 they should be better than hellbrutes.

I'd like to point out that your opponent can simply kill the GUO instead of allowing you to revive half your army. 18 T7/5++ wounds should be doable for most armies with good anti-tank.

**COLD CASH**

Just played a random doubles tourny with spitter PBC's, with only 3, flyers were a pain but with 10 i really dont see them as much of a problem. Even on hitting on 5's and 6's the mortars and stubbers put in real good work, if you can find the points for those gnarlmaws i think the list would be very strong.

Dark eldar melted etc, i didnt have the right support for them at 1000 points and only once got a synergistic partner.

Also choked lanes would be a night mare.

**Mandragola**

A friend claims that his crawlers and haulers list with Epidemius works very well. I haven't seen it in action.

I'm not sure if it would be worth adding a GUO to that. The downside of the bell is that it nerfs his hitting power substantially. That said, it would leave your opponent with only very tough things to fire at.

Trees, on the other hand, seems to provide a huge benefit. Being able to fall back and shoot makes an enormous difference to both crawlers and haulers. +2 on their armour saves is no bad thing either. I can even see a case for bringing Horticulous along. I imagine that a decent battalion could be made of him, Epidemius and maybe a Spoilpox Scrivener, supported by a spearhead of crawlers (maybe with a DP as HQ) and some haulers.

It would probably cost a lot more points than I'm imagining though. Maybe instead of planting trees during the game it's good enough to just have a few in your deployment zone.

**Jidmah**

Trees don't provide cover to monsters or vehicles, so no cover for haulers, GUO, DP or PBC.

**Mandragola**

Jidmah wrote:
Trees don't provide cover to monsters or vehicles, so no cover for haulers, GUO, DP or PBC.

Oh yeah. Keep forgetting that.

**buddha**

If you are already bringing Morty and Typhus do you think it's better to take a malignant plaguecaster or a LoC? I'm going to be using the archcontamintor WT either way.

**blackmage**

really dont find a reason to play a lord of contagion

**BrianDavion**

blackmage wrote:
really dont find a reason to play a lord of contagion

yah the Lord of Contagion is one of those baffling "what use is it" codex options that GW occasionally gives you. useally it's a teritary unit, but in this case it sucks as it's what is clearly intended to be the death guard "Captain"

**Jidmah**

I use mine as Terminator Chaos Lord with chain axe *shrugs*

**Fan67**

If only they gave him re-roll aura.

I use mine for ... Age of Sigmar Lord of Plagues.

Also converted one of the spare Blightbringers into the Lord of Blight. Ended up quite cool actually.