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Claas wrote:
i have a question, typically how many extra poxwalkers should I have on hand if I want to build a poxwalker list with a cultist Fodder? An extra poxwalker for each cultist?

Just a few is enough. Unless you're going to min max on a list where your opponent has no other targets than poxwalkers or cultists, odds are good he'll just ignore the cultists altogether.

Cultists are not a threat. That means the stratagem is usually just ignored as your opponent kills your poxwalkers first or ignores the cultists altogether. The only way to get around that is by giving him no other targets really.

Thinking of a new list for local gaming and RTTs, so far I have this as an idea:

++ DEATH GUARD BATTALION DETACHMENT ++
+ HQ +
Daemon Prince of Nurgle [180]: Wings, 2x Malefic Talons, (Relic) The Suppurating Plate
Malignant Plaguecaster [110]

+ TROOPS +
5 Plague Marines [130]: 2x Blight Launcher, Champion w/Plasma Gun, Powerfist
19 Poxwalkers [114]
19 Poxwalkers [114]

+ ELITE +
Noxious Blightbringer [65]

+ FAST ATTACK +
Foetid Bloat-Drone [158]: 2x Plaguespitters
Foetid Bloat-Drone [158]: 2x Plaguespitters

+ HEAVY SUPPORT +
Plagueburst Crawler [146]: 2x Entropy Cannon, Heavy Slugger
Plagueburst Crawler [146]: 2x Entropy Cannon, Heavy Slugger

++ DEATH GUARD SUPER-HEAVY AUXILIARY DETACHMENT ++
+ LORD OF WAR +
Mortarion [470]

This comes to 1791 so far. I am not sure what I should look at adding to the list to round it out to 2000; i'm not sure what I would be lacking that I could consider shoring up on. I don't actually own Mortarion yet (considering buying him soon).

Any suggestions/recommendations? The only thing I would absolutely refuse to add is Tzeentch stuff (e.g. brimstones) because of fluff reasons.

Wayniac wrote:
Thinking of a new list for local gaming and RTTs, so far I have this as an idea:

++ DEATH GUARD BATTALION DETACHMENT ++
+ HQ +
Daemon Prince of Nurgle [180]: Wings, 2x Malefic Talons, (Relic) The Suppurating Plate
Malignant Plaguecaster [110]

+ TROOPS +
5 Plague Marines [130]: 2x Blight Launcher, Champion w/Plasma Gun, Powerfist
19 Poxwalkers [114]
19 Poxwalkers [114]

+ ELITE +
Noxious Blightbringer [65]

+ FAST ATTACK +
Foetid Bloat-Drone [158]: 2x Plaguespitters
Foetid Bloat-Drone [158]: 2x Plaguespitters

+ HEAVY SUPPORT +
Plagueburst Crawler [146]: 2x Entropy Cannon, Heavy Slugger
Plagueburst Crawler [146]: 2x Entropy Cannon, Heavy Slugger

++ DEATH GUARD SUPER-HEAVY AUXILIARY DETACHMENT ++
+ LORD OF WAR +
Mortarion [470]

This comes to 1791 so far. I am not sure what I should look at adding to the list to round it out to 2000; i'm not sure what I would be lacking that I could consider shoring up on. I don't actually own Mortarion yet (considering buying him soon).

Any suggestions/recommendations? The only thing I would absolutely refuse to add is Tzeentch stuff (e.g. brimstones) because of fluff reasons.

Needs Warptime, and I have (personally) been underwhelmed by the Blightbringer in my games... advancing 2d6 is nice to get the Walkers into position quicker, but my few games have seen the walkers getting charged early enough to make the BB not worth the 60 points. Guess if I faced more guard might see better use. Also, needs a Cultist screen to create more walkers, or at least give opponents something to shoot besides your walkers. T3 walkers will die pretty quickly compared to T4

i would add another bloated drone and some cultists if you can squeeze in thypus too, it drastically improve pox durability.

Here is the best performed DG list from LVO:


Question: Why there are 19 Poxwalkers instead of 20?
I can find no plausible reason. First idea is that Joshua required 70pts to summon a unit of Plaguebearers or Pink Horrors and with total cost of perfect split for 30 pink horors at 480pts the only way to get 70pts was to drop one pox.
BUT perfect split is so unlikely and only 1 less brimstone split would give same result...
My head hurts...

There are bonus points available for killing 20 model units in the LVO mission format

I feel so stupid now hadn't asked before started to go crazy in my theories.

Thank you, Captyn_Bob.

Tournament rules affecting unit sizes haven't crossed my mind at all.

I soon will field simmiliar list at 2250pts tournament. Currently in the process of excessive testing between Aquila Strongpoint and Plasma Obliterator.
In my opinion Joshua's list lacks Tallyman and deep strikers, and Plasma Obliterator along with more points in general will allow to fill the gapes.
Hard to net-list his roster for my local meta, but I love the idea.

But in today's game Aquila managed to provide 4 consequtive turns of appreciable shooting, in one turn she yielded 9 mortal wounds.
First turn she wiped out 5-man GK strike squad, second turn 4 man from GK strike squad, third and forth turn obliterated squads holding key EW markers.
Along with "Gaze of Fate" it feel more reliable that it seems, even if your CP pool is under pressure from holding pink horrors together and poxwalkers unreachable.

I proxy my aquila with "missile silo" part of my Fortress of Redemption, does anyone have any picktures to compare them together?

I would not even consider that list "Death Guard". It's basically chaos soup. But I also would not consider that guy who brought 9 Plagueburst Crawlers to be playing "Death Guard" either. To me, unrelated to death guard, the best list I've seen from LVO was that pure Blood Angels list (with Primaris!) who was in the Top 8. No BS, no soup, no egregious min/maxing from various sources just because you can.

Fan67 wrote:

I soon will field simmiliar list at 2250pts tournament. Currently in the process of excessive testing between Aquila Strongpoint and Plasma Obliterator.
In my opinion Joshua's list lacks Tallyman and deep strikers, and Plasma Obliterator along with more points in general will allow to fill the gapes.
Hard to net-list his roster for my local meta, but I love the idea.

My biggest problem with Joshua's list was a reliance on starting the poxwalkers embarked AND using the Dead walk on it at the start of the turn (despite units being embarked being unable to be affected "in any way"). The TOs ruled that it was legal for the LVO, but I would not expect that ruling to apply for other tournies.

sure it will not apply, that's why also if strong i wont consider take it for a tournament in here.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

Fan67 wrote:

I soon will field simmiliar list at 2250pts tournament. Currently in the process of excessive testing between Aquila Strongpoint and Plasma Obliterator.
In my opinion Joshua's list lacks Tallyman and deep strikers, and Plasma Obliterator along with more points in general will allow to fill the gapes.
Hard to net-list his roster for my local meta, but I love the idea.

My biggest problem with Joshua's list was a reliance on starting the poxwalkers embarked AND using the Dead walk on it at the start of the turn (despite units being embarked being unable to be affected "in any way"). The TOs ruled that it was legal for the LVO, but I would not expect that ruling to apply for other tournies.

Yes, it was a very gamey ruling in my opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wayniac wrote:
I would not even consider that list "Death Guard". It's basically chaos soup. But I also would not consider that guy who brought 9 Plagueburst Crawlers to be playing "Death Guard" either. To me, unrelated to death guard, the best list I've seen from LVO was that pure Blood Angels list (with Primaris!) who was in the Top 8. No BS, no soup, no egregious min/maxing from various sources just because you can.

I agree!

I'm really sick of soup lists dominating, I want to see actual thought placed in lists instead of "spam X unit 1000000x!" I really believe there should be limits on how many of certain types of units can be fielded (for example, you can only take 2 PBC's per Battalion) or something like that... I'd like to see more variety in what people are fielding. Each army has more than 2-3 options, ya know? Bring back the old FOC!

So, rather than start a new topic I'll ask here: which is better? (for the next big purchase)

GUO
Mortarion
Renegade Knight
(2) PBC

 Zid wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wayniac wrote:
I would not even consider that list "Death Guard". It's basically chaos soup. But I also would not consider that guy who brought 9 Plagueburst Crawlers to be playing "Death Guard" either. To me, unrelated to death guard, the best list I've seen from LVO was that pure Blood Angels list (with Primaris!) who was in the Top 8. No BS, no soup, no egregious min/maxing from various sources just because you can.

I agree!

I'm really sick of soup lists dominating, I want to see actual thought placed in lists instead of "spam X unit 1000000x!" I really believe there should be limits on how many of certain types of units can be fielded (for example, you can only take 2 PBC's per Battalion) or something like that... I'd like to see more variety in what people are fielding. Each army has more than 2-3 options, ya know? Bring back the old FOC!

Me to but that won't happen. I'd like to see ITC put those restrictions in place, since GW will not. I hate feeling like I can't win because I want to run a pure Death Guard list, and not run the "Poxwalker Farm". Tournament or not, the hobby is still a thing that should be respected, and IMHO that includes the rich background (which to me is the only reason to play 40k; there are way better competitive games out there if you only care about a solid game, so I have to imagine that people choose to play 40k because of the background and models). This is part of why I think there needs to be comp/sportsmanship again; a warhammer tournament should be about more than who goes undefeated.

Did GW state somewhere forces would be rewarded for being pure or somesuch? I have a vague recollection of reading something to that effect? It seems DG is downright punished without warptime.
It is unfortunate how much warptime improves some units, eg Morty. The blight bombardment stratagem is potent but rather corner case without it.

I think the issue is more of the Adeptus Hereticus powers (warptime+precience+death hex) being too strong. I think GW is aware of this, considering that Belakor is missing the two most powerful powers from that list.

Ix_Tab wrote:
Did GW state somewhere forces would be rewarded for being pure or somesuch? I have a vague recollection of reading something to that effect? It seems DG is downright punished without warptime.
It is unfortunate how much warptime improves some units, eg Morty. The blight bombardment stratagem is potent but rather corner case without it.

Yes they did. Originally GW stated that command points would be a reward for pure detachments/playing fluffy; it was one of many things they went back on as 8th edition came out, and probably erased all trace of them saying it like they've done before.

I think it's implied that the balancing factor for Morty is that Death Guard do NOT get native access to Warptime; Thousand Sons get access to it, but the fact we alone don't seem to indicate that's intentional as a weakness (Death Guard being slow), it's just because detachments and soup exist, we can completely ignore that built-in weakness, and as a result it becomes "mandatory" to find a way to get that thing which nullifies your weakness.

I don't want to derail this into a rant on why I feel detachments are bad, so I'll leave it at the fact that they let you completely ignore your weaknesses.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
So, rather than start a new topic I'll ask here: which is better? (for the next big purchase)

GUO
Mortarion
Renegade Knight
(2) PBC

my choice goes on Morty, great model and very useful, 2nd i go for PBC's

 Jidmah wrote:
I think the issue is more of the Adeptus Hereticus powers (warptime+precience+death hex) being too strong. I think GW is aware of this, considering that Belakor is missing the two most powerful powers from that list.

He's missing 3 powers because they were all written to affect Heretic Astartes only, which is useless to him. They apparently didn't want to re-write them to be able to affect Daemons, so they removed them. (he has Death Hex by the way, he doesn't get Warptime, Prescience, and Diabolic Strength)

Also, to be fair, Be'Lakor is absolute trash now, so not sure if this is to nerf him or because they were simply too lazy to determine whether making DH powers available to Daemons would create balance issues.

GUO 325p VS Rotigus 330p VS Mortarion 470

Looking at all 3 morty is dead competitively if he isnt way back or lucky 1st turn if you didnt start.

The 2 Greater daemon are able to deepstrike and though they arnt morty when it come to CC they have both got nice range weapons and both have excellent CC.

I think rotigus for 5 points more is a better choice for a 1st turn charge, 2 deny the witch with 2 casts 3 spells with a built in MW charge mechanic.

CC 5+d6 s7A -1 1D or 5 S8 -2 D3

vs GUO CC 5 S8 -3 D6

So is it peoples opinion that morty despite the fact hes awesome is now defunct in high tier play by these 2 GUO? Simpler to get into combat and almost as tough.

Much much cheaper!

Going to run 1 in a Nurgle chaos daemon detachment in place of Mortarion.

You can deepstrike the GUO/Rotigus but then he still has to sit out there for a turn. All the best offensive spells/shooting etc are less than 9".

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
You can deepstrike the GUO/Rotigus but then he still has to sit out there for a turn. All the best offensive spells/shooting etc are less than 9".

If you fail the charge and he will still be full health after 1st turn if they go 1st.

Dead walk again says “choose unit” not “choose unit on the battlefield. So it is pretty widely considered to affect embarked poxwalkers. At least it is so in my local meta, so I will give it a shot. It is more akin to stratagems used to units before battle or during deployment.

Also you guys forget that DG clearly has access to Warptime from Sorcerer on Palanquin of Nurgle from Index Chaos, albeit many tournaments nowadays prohibit indexes for Codexed factions (which I approve).

I am trying idea similiar to Joshua’s because my meta is toxically filled with reaper spam, shining spears, alpha strike marine soups and alpha strike csm. My other DG lists are being wiped in first 2-3 turns, while DeadWalkAgain&Split list will only blossom. I love the idea of becoming stronger with more I get hit. And this idea is very nurlesque to my liking.

COLD CASH wrote:
GUO 325p VS Rotigus 330p VS Mortarion 470

Looking at all 3 morty is dead competitively if he isnt way back or lucky 1st turn if you didnt start.

The 2 Greater daemon are able to deepstrike and though they arnt morty when it come to CC they have both got nice range weapons and both have excellent CC.

I think rotigus for 5 points more is a better choice for a 1st turn charge, 2 deny the witch with 2 casts 3 spells with a built in MW charge mechanic.

CC 5+d6 s7A -1 1D or 5 S8 -2 D3

vs GUO CC 5 S8 -3 D6

So is it peoples opinion that morty despite the fact hes awesome is now defunct in high tier play by these 2 GUO? Simpler to get into combat and almost as tough.

Much much cheaper!

Going to run 1 in a Nurgle chaos daemon detachment in place of Mortarion.

yes but... Mortarion can be targeted by warptime and Guo not... so in competitive lists Mortarion will always have access to warptime and charge turn one, all depend who start 1st, ds is great but if you fail the charge Guo die like Mortarion only advantage is he is cheaper.

SilverAlien wrote:

Ecdain wrote:
Competitive is what wins, period. Not some bull about fluff or meta. Look at the facts, dude took pbc spam to one of the most well known tourney's around and went 5-1 for 13th place. That is 100% competetive, unless you beat him and not just some random guy at an flgs who doesn't know how to pilot it, noone can say otherwise.

Again that's... not really how this works. One or two anti meta builds generally get in because it's all down to who you fight early, as later on the dominant armies are generally easy to predict. Also, it's got four units in it, most people can pilot it. I'm sorry but let's not kid ourselves.

Yes we can take some knowledge from this, that PBCs are really underpriced for their durability and make for rather hilarious jack of all trades vehicles when taken in mass. But this list worked in a very specific closed environment, one where all the PBC's strengths happened to be leveraged.

so pretty much you are saying you, or for that matter of fact anyone, could have done well with that list right? good luck with that. The list is good, but is far from autoplay and many hard choices you will have to make vs certain armies.

No, that list is basically find something that works and take as many of it as you can, just like most of the other "competitive" trash lists you tend to see at a tournament. That's not thought or good play, it's playing the numbers.

kaintxu wrote:
so pretty much you are saying you, or for that matter of fact anyone, could have done well with that list right? good luck with that. The list is good, but is far from autoplay and many hard choices you will have to make vs certain armies.

I'd say playing a few games with it should make it really apparent how you run it. It's not super hard to see what the parts are for as is. I'm also guessing it is a stall list that depends on durability and slow play, could be wrong on that.

Wayniac wrote:
No, that list is basically find something that works and take as many of it as you can, just like most of the other "competitive" trash lists you tend to see at a tournament. That's not thought or good play, it's playing the numbers.

They are competitive, they are not trash lists. If you want to play beer and pretzels 40k, I really encourage you, but don't come to a 40k tactics forums to say a competitive list if trash because it is min maxing or spamming. It is perfectly thought and well played for the environment it was created, and I dare you to do well with such a list. I bet Don can probably go to your meta and spam you all with it.

SilverAlien wrote:I'd say playing a few games with it should make it really apparent how you run it. It's not super hard to see what the parts are for as is. I'm also guessing it is a stall list that depends on durability and slow play, could be wrong on that..

All lists are apparent after you play a few games if you are a good player, but then you have to make many decision based on who you are playing against, and that's were the player comes in. Why didn't you win LVO (maybe you didn't attend) and why are Nick and Alex always up there even if others are also taking their lists?

Every list is apparent after you see it in action by someone else.

I can't argue that PBC spam is pretty obvious list to come up with, but very hard to execute. Also characters supporting this list are clearly not obvious.
I would certainly prefer Arch-contaminator Daemon prince with wings to run along the tight phalanx of PBC - which is very far from how it's been actualy played out during LVO.

I wonder if I have enough blue horrors miniatures for poxwalker/horrors combo. I have 150 pox, 35 blue and 120 brim. As far as I know you first remove blue/brim before pinks, so it seems I don’t need to max my blue count up to 60 theoretical maximum.

While initially assembled 80 poxwalkers from four dark imperium sets very soon proved to be inadequate and I have to use 70 maradeurs of chaos as proxy for extra zombies.

So which is the better (more survivable) Warlord option for Daemon Prince:

Death Guard Prince with Revoltingly Resilient, Miasma power, Suppurating Plate Relic Armor

CD Daemon Prince with Plaguefly Hive, Fleshy Abundance power, Corruption Relic Sword (using the old GUO model)

I've been taking CD as Warlord and paying for the DG relic armor, but I might want to save a CP and stick with just 1 relic.

I like the idea of Plaguefly hive being a guaranteed always-on Miasma (albeit shorter ranged) with the ability to heal from both psychic power, and CD Strategems, But the DG prince is just as tanky, and more survivable against ap -1, ap-2 weapons.

The downside to the DG prince being the terrible Tactical Objectives DG get, and my group is exclusive to Maelstrom play.