Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Latro_ wrote:
yea i'v (since 2005) run my DG army in rhinos.

They can be a real issue when you rock them as you (and i do) about 4 with PM in.

I'm liking one of mine to be the blight-drive by that is 9 naked (eep!) plague marines with a Biologus Putrifier 12" +d6 if you need to then next turn jump out 8" and chuck 10d6 blight grenade s4 2dmg re-rollin 1's to wound mortal wound on a 6 death.

charge the rhinos into other stuff to mostly prevent them doing much back at you then do it all again now on foot.

Get mortal wounds on 5's by using Blight Bombardment coupled with Veterans of the Long War. I'm actually wanting to give this idea a go and see what happens.

Oh yea i did that once against magnus (think i more or less killed him in one round of shooting!) but normally have to ration CPs and in general even without votlw you'll severely damage most units to effectivly make them not much of an issue.

Oh man, that drive by sounds really fun. I might have to give it a go!

Another thing that i'v only just hit on (play way to many armies) is you can whack miasma and combine it with smoke right!

Gonna double team my daemon prince and defiler, my mate's guardsmen'll be hitting him on a 6

Hey guys,
A couple of loadout questions if anyone can assist..

-Plagueburst Crawlers.
Both of mine have plague spitters on the sides, They are the only guns I can easily have. Are they a good option for it?

-Bloat drones, I have two.

Would one with plague spitters and one with a heavy blight launcher work.
Or should it be two with plague splitters?
(These are my only two options, as I have the DI drones.)


Thanks for any help you can give!

Danny76 wrote:
Hey guys,
A couple of loadout questions if anyone can assist..

-Plagueburst Crawlers.
Both of mine have plague spitters on the sides, They are the only guns I can easily have. Are they a good option for it?

-Bloat drones, I have two.

Would one with plague spitters and one with a heavy blight launcher work.
Or should it be two with plague splitters?
(These are my only two options, as I have the DI drones.)


Thanks for any help you can give!

I think Bloat Drones are best with Plaguespitters. They're great at covering up DPs and killing infantry (Killed 8 Death Company in a lucky shot). I don't like the idea of having something very mobile standing still somewhere. Plus with Spitters you can advance and shoot, which gives you even more mobility

As for PBCs, both are great imo. Depends on what you're facing and how you like to play your army. I've had success both with Cannons and a Chaos Lord for re-rolls and with Spitter Crawlers moving up the board

BrianDavion wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I started very similar to how you did. After the daemon prince, I have added the Tallyman for CP regeneration and the Foul Blightspawn for his flamer of doom to take down planes and tough models that want to get close. I also started using the LoC as Chaos Lord with Terminator armor and power axe to a great effect.

Plague marines don't need rhinos unless they are melee oriented. Just buff the unit with the plasma weapons with cloud of flies for the first few turns (try to get the CP back with Tallyman) and have the blight launcher unit in cover near an objective and cast Miasma of Pestilence on them if they are drawing too much attention. You also have at least four T5 3+/5+++ bolter marines they need to chew through before you actually lose something valuable.

What the starter set is lacking IMO is anti-tank. Therefore, instead of rhinos you should try to get PBC, helbrutes, a defiler or predators, with PBC being the most competitive option obviously. Or you buy Mortarion, he is anti-everything.

yeah definatly leaning towards a PBC or two. and probly snag morty as a showpiece even if I never use him. he can hang out beside gulliman on my shelf

To offer an alternative option, a helbrute with twin lascannon and missiles costs almost the same as a pbc, but instead of hitting on 5+, it always hits on 3+. Granted it's less survivable, it's way more reliable anti tank shooting.

Danny slag wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I started very similar to how you did. After the daemon prince, I have added the Tallyman for CP regeneration and the Foul Blightspawn for his flamer of doom to take down planes and tough models that want to get close. I also started using the LoC as Chaos Lord with Terminator armor and power axe to a great effect.

Plague marines don't need rhinos unless they are melee oriented. Just buff the unit with the plasma weapons with cloud of flies for the first few turns (try to get the CP back with Tallyman) and have the blight launcher unit in cover near an objective and cast Miasma of Pestilence on them if they are drawing too much attention. You also have at least four T5 3+/5+++ bolter marines they need to chew through before you actually lose something valuable.

What the starter set is lacking IMO is anti-tank. Therefore, instead of rhinos you should try to get PBC, helbrutes, a defiler or predators, with PBC being the most competitive option obviously. Or you buy Mortarion, he is anti-everything.

yeah definatly leaning towards a PBC or two. and probly snag morty as a showpiece even if I never use him. he can hang out beside gulliman on my shelf

To offer an alternative option, a helbrute with twin lascannon and missiles costs almost the same as a pbc, but instead of hitting on 5+, it always hits on 3+. Granted it's less survivable, it's way more reliable anti tank shooting.

I would always take a PBC over a Helbrute. The durability more than makes up for the decreased reliability of shooting. The Helbrute might get one round of shooting in (if the DG player goes first), but then it'll go down hard to return fire. The PBC can take hits and keep on going, and although it is very possible to kill one in a single turn, it will take an inordinate amount of fire to do so, which takes the heat off your other units. I do think it's still best to take 2-3 of them at least, though, for saturation and redundancy.

Now, Helbrutes can still be fun in less competitive games, but I personally think they are best with Alpha Legion for the -1 to be hit, as that keeps them around longer. DG ones can move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty though, so they aren't terrible, but there are better options for your points.

Danny slag wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I started very similar to how you did. After the daemon prince, I have added the Tallyman for CP regeneration and the Foul Blightspawn for his flamer of doom to take down planes and tough models that want to get close. I also started using the LoC as Chaos Lord with Terminator armor and power axe to a great effect.

Plague marines don't need rhinos unless they are melee oriented. Just buff the unit with the plasma weapons with cloud of flies for the first few turns (try to get the CP back with Tallyman) and have the blight launcher unit in cover near an objective and cast Miasma of Pestilence on them if they are drawing too much attention. You also have at least four T5 3+/5+++ bolter marines they need to chew through before you actually lose something valuable.

What the starter set is lacking IMO is anti-tank. Therefore, instead of rhinos you should try to get PBC, helbrutes, a defiler or predators, with PBC being the most competitive option obviously. Or you buy Mortarion, he is anti-everything.

yeah definatly leaning towards a PBC or two. and probly snag morty as a showpiece even if I never use him. he can hang out beside gulliman on my shelf

To offer an alternative option, a helbrute with twin lascannon and missiles costs almost the same as a pbc, but instead of hitting on 5+, it always hits on 3+. Granted it's less survivable, it's way more reliable anti tank shooting.

Thing is, being reliable doesn't matter if they only get to shoot once (or none at all)

I just played a casual 2000-point game today with my Death Guard, vs. my friend's Thousand Sons. The mission was The Scouring from the BRB. My list was the following:

My opponent's list was the following:

We wanted to put our two Daemon Primarchs against each other, and this was our chance. He went first and I failed to seize. He managed to wipe out my Blight Launcher PM squad in his first turn with psychic powers, as well as putting a few mortal wounds on several of my characters with Infernal Gateway. In my turn, I dropped in my Blightlords and killed one unit of Spawn as well as killing one Rhino, but that was about all I managed to do. On his second turn, his other Spawn charged and killed a bunch of my Poxwalkers. In addition during the turn, he managed to catch my Warlord Daemon Prince with Magnus and his warlord and kill him for an easy Slay the Warlord, but not before I interrupted combat and actually put a bunch of wounds on that warlord. He also killed my bloat drone with the shooting from one of his Rubric Marine units, causing the drone to explode and put a mortal wound on everyone nearby. On my turn, I had Typhus charge and kill the other spawn after softening them up with shooting from my other units. I also punked the other two Rhinos, one of which had his other Rubrics in it (they all made it out of the wreckage safely). My Blightlords killed a few Rubrics, but not many; ditto with the Crawler. My Blightspawn was one of the units that softened up the Rhinos, but he failed to kill it thanks to only managing a 4 on 2d6 for his weapon's strength (ugh). Not a lot else happened that turn. On my opponent's turn 3, he took out the Blightspawn with Magnus' powers, as well as killing more zombies and putting a couple of wounds on Typhus. Two of his Aspiring Sorcerers suffered Perils of the Warp and blew themselves up in this turn, killing a bunch of Rubrics. Even worse, when he charged the Crawler with his wounded non-warlord Prince, I got a lucky hit with one of the entropy cannons and he failed his save, taking 5 damage and killing that prince. The other prince got into combat with the crawler but only managed to do two wounds to it thanks to the invulnerable save and Disgustingly Resilient. Magnus helped finish off the zombies in combat. On my turn 3, I fell back with the crawler and charged Morty into Magnus. My other units shot up a bunch of the surviving Rubrics and I also put my Plaguecaster into combat with Magnus to hopefully be able to squish him this turn. That didn't happen as he made all but two of his saves against Morty and I only managed to roll a 1 and a 2 on the d6 damage for those. Yuck. At least Magnus had already taken a few wounds from other stuff, as this was enough to knock him down to his second tier. Magnus put a few wounds on Morty as well, knocking him down to his second tier as well. Turn 4 mostly involved the remaining Rubrics mostly failing to do much to my Plague Marines and his other Aspiring Sorcerer also managing to get Perils and blow himself to kingdom come. That was 3 out of 3 Aspiring Sorcerers lost to Perils of the Warp. My opponent was not happy. Magnus and Morty swung at each other again, taking a few wounds out of each other. In my turn, I cleaned up most of the rest of the Rubric Marines and Morty actually polished off Magnus, with only 3 wounds remaining himself. On turn 5, his Warlord charged into Morty to try to finish him, and when Morty made all his invulnerable saves (but somehow failed to kill that prince), we called the game, as my opponent had very few models left and I still had a full unit of Blightlords plus my Crawler and Blightbringer holding objectives, and Morty was most likely going to kill off his warlord in his next fight phase. The game was closer than it should have been considering my opponent was unknowingly short on points. My psykers struggled to get much done, actually having more success denying powers than actually casting them. I rolled pretty crappy for most of my tests, and many of the powers I did manage to cast ended up being denied by Magnus and his +2 psychic rolls.

My takeaways from the game:
Trying to beat Thousand Sons in the psychic phase is a no-go. Best to stay out of deny range if at all possible, because it's hard to cast powers if Magnus can deny them.
The Plagueburst Crawler was a bit hit-or-miss. It is extremely durable, but somewhat inaccurate, especially against -1 to hit targets (like Rhinos that pop smoke) or if it has to move at all. If I could have screened it and kept it out of combat, it would have done much better. I definitely think they would work better in multiples.
The Foul Blightspawn is good, but very swingy. Two of the times I fired his weapon, I rolled less than 5 for his weapon's strength, and the times I got good strength, I rolled low on number of hits. I don't think I would ever run more than one.
Plague Marines are underestimated I think. Their Toughness of 5 really hurts small arms (bolters need 5's to wound, for example), and their DR save can really frustrate opponents.
Poxwalkers really need to have a list built around them to work well. They really did not do anything in my game. I probably would have been better off with cultists or even more Plague Marines.
Rubric Marines are overcosted by a large margin. My opponent was trying too hard to make a bad unit work. Their weapons are nasty, but not worth the cost on a T4 3+ save body.

My friend does intend to try other Thousand Sons lists out, including one with a huge number of Tzaangors and another with a lot of Scarab Occult Terminators and Helbrutes.

Thanks for the report!

What powers did you pick on your psykers?
The Malignant Plaguecaster is MVP in many of my games, but I can't see myself running him after I have Typhus.

Kzraahk wrote:

Danny slag wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I started very similar to how you did. After the daemon prince, I have added the Tallyman for CP regeneration and the Foul Blightspawn for his flamer of doom to take down planes and tough models that want to get close. I also started using the LoC as Chaos Lord with Terminator armor and power axe to a great effect.

Plague marines don't need rhinos unless they are melee oriented. Just buff the unit with the plasma weapons with cloud of flies for the first few turns (try to get the CP back with Tallyman) and have the blight launcher unit in cover near an objective and cast Miasma of Pestilence on them if they are drawing too much attention. You also have at least four T5 3+/5+++ bolter marines they need to chew through before you actually lose something valuable.

What the starter set is lacking IMO is anti-tank. Therefore, instead of rhinos you should try to get PBC, helbrutes, a defiler or predators, with PBC being the most competitive option obviously. Or you buy Mortarion, he is anti-everything.

yeah definatly leaning towards a PBC or two. and probly snag morty as a showpiece even if I never use him. he can hang out beside gulliman on my shelf

To offer an alternative option, a helbrute with twin lascannon and missiles costs almost the same as a pbc, but instead of hitting on 5+, it always hits on 3+. Granted it's less survivable, it's way more reliable anti tank shooting.

Thing is, being reliable doesn't matter if they only get to shoot once (or none at all)

But if your anti tank guns miss every shot they're not doing you any more good either.

I do see your point though, and you're right, that 5+ to hit is just so frustrating and your opponent might ignore it banking on you missing. Another advantage of the helbrute is lascannon + lash means it can be used to counter charge if you're up against a melee army, or move forward and be a threat to put on pressure. A pbc can be negated by melee.

Lastly the pbc is basically done for at half wounds, or if the opponent has one of the many -1 to hit armies, it can be completely ignored because it's now hitting on 6+. While the helbrute doesn't have a wound track. So it's easy to get a pbc shooting at 6+, the worst a helbrute ever gets is 4+.

While you're completely correct that a pbc will soak all the damage, helbrutes are so versatile. I'm totally down for pbc with the flamers, but for anti tank it seems sketchy. I'd rather shoot once and hit than shoot twice and miss.

I usually field two PBCs with Entropy Cannons and a babysitter Lord. Re-rolling 1s helps a lot. Hitting Alaitoc/Alpha Legion/Raven Guard/Whatever on 5s is a huge pain in the ass, but I still have the rest of the army to help.


Also, if your opponent manages to cripple your Crawlers, means your Hellbrutes would have already died a while ago

 Jidmah wrote:
Thanks for the report!

What powers did you pick on your psykers?
The Malignant Plaguecaster is MVP in many of my games, but I can't see myself running him after I have Typhus.

Typhus had Putrescent Vitality and Blades of Putrefaction, intending to buff the Poxwalkers (never did get the powers off).
The Prince had Gift of Contagion, but again, he didn't end up getting it off and he died early.
The Malignant Plaguecaster had Plague Wind and Curse of the Leper. He mostly ended up using Smite instead, doing a couple of wounds to Magnus and almost dying to Perils (saved his last wound with DR, thank Nurgle!).
Morty had Miasma of Pestilence, Blades of Putrefaction and Curse of the Leper. Three out of four times trying to cast Miasma, he either failed to cast it or it got denied.

I decided to go heavy on psykers so I could try out a bunch of the DG powers, but my rolls were pretty much crap and a lot of what I did succeed with just got denied.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
yea i'v (since 2005) run my DG army in rhinos.

They can be a real issue when you rock them as you (and i do) about 4 with PM in.

I'm liking one of mine to be the blight-drive by that is 9 naked (eep!) plague marines with a Biologus Putrifier 12" +d6 if you need to then next turn jump out 8" and chuck 10d6 blight grenade s4 2dmg re-rollin 1's to wound mortal wound on a 6 death.

charge the rhinos into other stuff to mostly prevent them doing much back at you then do it all again now on foot.

Get mortal wounds on 5's by using Blight Bombardment coupled with Veterans of the Long War. I'm actually wanting to give this idea a go and see what happens.

I tried a very similar setup in my last game

9 Plague Marines and a Biologus Putrifier in a rhino, I made sure they were in range of my DP warlord (Arch-Contaminator).

10D6 shots, S4 D2, rerolling all wounds causing MW on a 5+ in addition to damage. They deleted a Land Raider in one volley (good rolling on my part admittedly) - It was glorious

Are blightlords with melee viable at all? I'm thoughtful to the idea that using skimpy blights with just combibolts, axes and the one off flail could be decnet - it clocks in under a bloodletter horde and takes a hella lot less CP. Damage for damage the letters are more explosive but the blights get to fire out with rapid fire combis before getting shoot at - and may be able to hit the initial charge(?) - also reasonably (?) resilient at 5T 4++ 2+ and a 5+++. Running them naked the losses aren't crushing when a model is lost.

I am keen on the idea of bringing a flail and trying to diabolic strength the model to get an extra d3 hit rolls along with potentially VOTLW to up the damage. I'm thinking of using htem as a front runner unit to draw fire and drop miasma on them to help with the small arm volume fire where they are quite suceptible. There are still a few units (psyckers/dark reaps) that will fry them - but using them as a damage sink and being able to threaten in close range seems tempting. Are they worth? Are they worth a damn in melee? I would probably run them with TSons warptime to help them close - I understand getting 2 psychic abilities off is lackluster and unlikely but putting them on ahriman with the increase TSons range makes it plausible.

I've played a few times with my DG in the past weeks and have to say man they are resilient. Arch-contaminator DP and PBC, bloat-drone wrecking ball is awesome.

Yesterday my friend fielded my 1k DG list against my BA list and my BA got beaten badly. I managed to charge my Slamguinius T1 at the DP, resulting in a single wound and took 2 mortal wounds from the suppurating plate. DP just murdered the captain Slam on returning blows. Next up my quickening and unleash rage powered Mephiston charged the DP, but didn't manage to kill it. DP put Mephy to 2 wounds and killed it on it's own turn. DP actually died eventually to predator tank fire, but until then it had denied Mephy's wings of sanguinius on T1, killed both my HQ's.

PM's and their T5 are amazing and hard to shift from an objective. Few games ago I shot with my stormraven 100 bolter/assault cannon/HB shots in two turns at a 7man squad killing roughly 2 plague marines from open ground.

We are changing our point limit from 2k games to 1500/1000 points to play faster and now I'm trying out some new builds.

List I created for my friend against me:

DP of Nurgle, wings, suppurating plate, talons, arch-contaminator
Malignant plaguecaster

16x poxwalkers
2x 5man PM, BL, 2x plasma, plaguesword
Chaos rhino (both PM's started here)

Foetid bloat-drone, plaguespitters
PBC, plaguespitters, slugger

---

poxwalkers got lifted from an objective by a DC squad, but other units were really solid. Poxes were there only for backfield objective holding and deny deepstrike, maybe cultists are better for this. shooty PM's in a rhino.. atleast they had protection if my friend hadn't seized the initiative from my BA.

I've been running a 1500 point list lately with great success. Still have to test it against new Tau and a few hardcore lists


Death Guard Spearhead

DP, Wings, Malefic Talons, Suppurating Plate, Revoltingly Resilient, Miasma of Pestilence

PBC, 2xEntropy Cannons
PBC, 2xEntropy Cannons
Leviathan Dread, 2xGrav Flux Bombard

FBD, 2xPlaguespitters
FBD, 2xPlaguespitters


Chaos Battalion

Poxbringer, Fleshy Abundance
DG Chaos Lord, Chainaxe, Combi-Flamer (Might change his equipment though)

3 Nurglings
3 Nurglings
3 Nurglings
3 Nurglings

Anyone tried something similar? C&C?

Anyone use a forgeworld sicaran battle tank? I'm thinking of adding one to my DG army instead of a predator.

Secondly, I've not added any chaos demons, last I saw it was up in the air on if herald buffs apply to DG units, where did that settle and are people finding it effective?

Here's a fast tactical report from a last nights game. I played BA, but both are my armies. This has been shared on BA thread, but putting it here if someone's interested.

Mission: front-line warfare, dawn of war deployment, 1k lists

DG list
Nurgle DP with wings, suppurating plate, miasma of pestilence, malefic talons, arch-contaminator
Malignant plaguecaster, putrescent vitality, curse of leper

2x 5man plague marines, 3x plasma, plaguesword on champion
15x poxwalkers

Chaos rhino

foetid bloat-drone, plaguespitters

PBC, plaguespitters, slugger

Has anyone running poxwalker hordes tried including Fabius Bile in their lists? His buffs work on them too, and strength/toughness/attacks are all good.

 Badablack wrote:
Has anyone running poxwalker hordes tried including Fabius Bile in their lists? His buffs work on them too, and strength/toughness/attacks are all good.

Wow. That could be pretty nasty. He has no keyword (legion) so any detatchment you include him in will loose the ability to have a chapter trait. However, you could take him with Abaddon and three units of black legion cultists. Cultists would be immune to moral, you get 2 cp from abaddone and you get to reroll all of your hit rolls with your cultists. Meanwhile your pox walkers are all buffed by Fabius bile.

So if you buff a unit of pox walkers RAW new pox walkers would get the buff right?

Hilariously, fabulous bile can also be used to kill models in your other units and create more poxes

 sennacherib wrote:

 Badablack wrote:
Has anyone running poxwalker hordes tried including Fabius Bile in their lists? His buffs work on them too, and strength/toughness/attacks are all good.

Wow. That could be pretty nasty. He has no keyword (legion) so any detatchment you include him in will loose the ability to have a chapter trait. However, you could take him with Abaddon and three units of black legion cultists. Cultists would be immune to moral, you get 2 cp from abaddone and you get to reroll all of your hit rolls with your cultists. Meanwhile your pox walkers are all buffed by Fabius bile.

So if you buff a unit of pox walkers RAW new pox walkers would get the buff right?

Tomorrow I'm running a list with 80 pox, 40 cultists and 60 plaguebearers for a casual game. I can rearrange my list so I have a detachment with all my cultists and pop bile in there. I'll just surround bile, typhus and necrosius with poxwalkers lol.

EDIT: Thinking about it, I think I'll just run an Alpha legion patrol for the cultists, and bring Fabius as an Aux so I get the sexy -1 mod for stinky fly cultists.

Codex: CSM, page 157 wrote:The inclusion of Fabius Bile or FALLEN units in a Detachment does not prevent other units in that Detachment from gaining a Legion Trait. However, Fabius Bile and the FALLEN units can never themselves benefit from a Legion Trait.

No need to move the Mad Doc Fabius elsewhere.

RAW Inexorable Advance is not a Legion Trait though, but Alpha Legion definitely works.

Eh... I mean, it could be neat, but its a pretty hefty tax; Fabius himself is pretty underwhelming. Also I feel like I'd want the +1T most of the game for the poxes, and even then, they could just focus on other, non-buffed units. Would it be worth it?

Although it seems cool themewise is his buff going to save 18 poxwalkers that would otherwise die? which is his cost of 109pts

probably not.

Have to say - used foetid bloat drone with mower in a few games and blightlords - feeling quite underwhelmed. The fact that when rocking the spewers on the drone its possible to advance and still shoot (and fallback and shoot) takes the cake.

Was stoked to build some mowers but now more or less going to guzzle all my sprue foetid's into spewers.

Blightlords mobility is just so low that left me disappointed. I fielded one with the flail but honestly the flail felt surprisingly niche (need to get a unit into melee with multiple models etc.). Maybe it was because I was playing against tau / tau shield drones and/or dark reapers.

On the brightside, PBC continues to be a rockstar - lived 2 turns of fusion commander blasphemy and also ate somewhere in the range of 20 dark reaper shots (and chugged out at like 1 wound). Rock on PBC!

I think both mowers and spewers have their place. Mowers have been MVP for vehicle harassment/hunting, and spewers are insanely good at infantry killing. Both are great harassment units due to their durability. I would give mowers another shot or two, the WS4 means a DP or lord nearby is super useful.

Mower drone is basically a 44pt cheaper talons DP.

Drones have +1S over the DP, and +2 attacks with same ap and dmg. You just lose on WS and gain on toughness.

Personally I field Blightlords either with combi-bolters and one flail if they're going for general purpose whacking or combi-meltas if sent after tanks. The flail has put the fear in to my opponent's little IG heart and the terminators invariably draw all the fire he has into them, more often than not taking it in a stride (punisher, demolisher, lascannons, more Catachan flamers than you can count etc.). It's a good psychological tool and if it does hit face then it does bad things to everything lighter than a main battle tank (feels good to crush Kastellan bots, see them driven before you and hear the lamentations of their datasmiths). Especially when near a Lord or under psychic augmentations.

Haven't yet had too much trouble with their mobility, either. I prefer to either throw them at the important objectives which they'll proceed to take over a few turns, put them near something that doesn't want to move and force the opponent to commit there or risk losing it or thirdly just drop them dead center in front of them. They can take the punishment, let the enemy waste their shots on the toughest nut if they want.