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 Deadshot wrote:

theocracity wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


Yeah it's this level of technical brilliant that I think should really be brought back more strongly to Orks. Their whole schtick is that they're big dumb comedic brutes that talk like football hooligans, which is utterly deceptive

I think people massively overplay the effect of the Ork's gestalt field, mainly based on information they've read online.

The actual evidence of the effect of the gestalt field is fantastically limited. In Xenology (quite an outdated book) it's mentioned that the Tech Magos observed an Ork firing a gun that was later found to have its trigger disconnected. However, that's hardly strong evidence suggesting 'the Ork believed it would fire so it did'. Occam's Razor would suggest that the most likely scenario is just that the trigger mechanism broke inbetween the Ork firing and the Tech Magos looking at it, or even that the Tech Magos doesn't know what he's looking at.

Don't get me wrong, it definitely exists (as evidenced by tabletop rules like 'Da Red Wunz Go Fasta'. However, stating that it's the sole reason that Ork Technology works is a massive overegging and oversimplification.

I'm personally of the opinion that even that doesn't necessarily have a 'magic' explanation. Perhaps Orks use their instinctive knowledge of technology to get a gut feeling of a vehicle's capabilities, and have the cultural habit of painting good un's red.

Here's quite an interesting idea potentially explaining the Mechanicus' confusion regarding Ork tech:

The Adeptus Mechanicus has theorised that this gestalt psychic field also has a telekinetic affect, allowing Ork technology to work. This argument has been debunked, even by the Imperium itself. It is believed that the reason this argument came into existence is that the Imperium believes that a 'Machine Spirit' inhabits all technology, and that this machine spirit serves humanity. If this is the case, without a machine spirit Ork machines could not work, requiring some psychic effect to justify their often devastating effect.

I like that a lot. There's a lot of overlap between the concepts of Machine Spirits and the Ork Gestalt Field as flexibly-defined explanations for how ludicrously complicated 40k technology actually runs - the exception being that there's a sensible in-universe explanation for machine spirits as fragments of AI and / or religiously doctrinized user manuals, rather than the pure hand-waving silliness of all Orks being wizards.

And yet all living creatures in the 40k galaxy except Blanks are connected to an alternate dimension approximate of Hell that allows powerful individuals to say "Lol what laws of physics."

'Powerful individuals' being the relevant caveat. Weirdboys? Sure. Lots of orks together in one place? Sure, in the same way that lots of humans in one place can cause plot-related psychic effects. But any random Ork on any given day? No.

The gestalt field is the only explanantion to explain why a V16 with a bugcatcher, 4 wheels and a driving seat (steering wheel costs extra teef), with no suspension, brakes or anything even connected to each other, can drive like a Charger on steroids.

You mean besides how Ork physiology is able to handle the stresses of acceleration and shock better than humans can, so Orks will naturally drive their vehicles harder and with less safety features? Not that I think your description of that vehicle is accurate - any Ork worth his teef wouldn't be caught dead with such a weedy engine.

Or how their Stompas just don't collapse in on themselves.

So do Warlord titans, or literally any other Imperium mega-construction, also benefit from the gestalt field?

Or how anything they make actually works because the laws of physics say it shouldn't.

So do Necrons also benefit from the gestalt field, or do only Orks need magic explanations to benefit from science fiction technology?

theocracity wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


Yeah it's this level of technical brilliant that I think should really be brought back more strongly to Orks. Their whole schtick is that they're big dumb comedic brutes that talk like football hooligans, which is utterly deceptive

I think people massively overplay the effect of the Ork's gestalt field, mainly based on information they've read online.

The actual evidence of the effect of the gestalt field is fantastically limited. In Xenology (quite an outdated book) it's mentioned that the Tech Magos observed an Ork firing a gun that was later found to have its trigger disconnected. However, that's hardly strong evidence suggesting 'the Ork believed it would fire so it did'. Occam's Razor would suggest that the most likely scenario is just that the trigger mechanism broke inbetween the Ork firing and the Tech Magos looking at it, or even that the Tech Magos doesn't know what he's looking at.

Don't get me wrong, it definitely exists (as evidenced by tabletop rules like 'Da Red Wunz Go Fasta'. However, stating that it's the sole reason that Ork Technology works is a massive overegging and oversimplification.

I'm personally of the opinion that even that doesn't necessarily have a 'magic' explanation. Perhaps Orks use their instinctive knowledge of technology to get a gut feeling of a vehicle's capabilities, and have the cultural habit of painting good un's red.

You beautiful beautiful person! You've finally given me the explanation to finally kill this 'Ork gestalt field makes their tech work' thing stone dead in my personal headcanon

Now I'm happy with it as an explanation for Weirdboyz, and something that affects the collective emotions of a group of Orks (say, generating aggression and restlessness, and prompting behaviour that sorts out their hierarchy).

theocracity wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Here's quite an interesting idea potentially explaining the Mechanicus' confusion regarding Ork tech:

The Adeptus Mechanicus has theorised that this gestalt psychic field also has a telekinetic affect, allowing Ork technology to work. This argument has been debunked, even by the Imperium itself. It is believed that the reason this argument came into existence is that the Imperium believes that a 'Machine Spirit' inhabits all technology, and that this machine spirit serves humanity. If this is the case, without a machine spirit Ork machines could not work, requiring some psychic effect to justify their often devastating effect.

I like that a lot. There's a lot of overlap between the concepts of Machine Spirits and the Ork Gestalt Field as flexibly-defined explanations for how ludicrously complicated 40k technology actually runs - the exception being that there's a sensible in-universe explanation for machine spirits as fragments of AI and / or religiously doctrinized user manuals, rather than the pure hand-waving silliness of all Orks being wizards.

Yeah I really liked that too! I love the insight that it's another example of load of dogmatic flexibly-defined ill-understood pseudoscience to explain the technological wonders of times long past

I do like my interpretation of the 40k universe to be a little on the hard-scifi side of things though, so I've got no problem with people who like their interpretation to be a little wilder and use the gestalt field to explain tech. Just makes it less compelling for me!

 Kain wrote:
I'm simply arguing that it's one of the less crazy and out there things warp power has done in the setting.

which brings us back to

Manchu wrote:
By that logic, the IG could also source ammo via psychic magic.

Personally I like 40k being a ridiculous and silly black comedy setting full of over the top insane lunacy and hilarious violations of common sense rather than a dour place that takes itself seriously and forgets its roots as a satire on fascism and Space Opera. 40k loses its spark when it takes itself too seriously and forgets that it's fundamentally a pretty dumb and silly premise (much like how I'm always opposed to trying to make Star Wars or Comic Books too deprived of humor and fun; when you really get down to it it's all kind of dumb and silly at its core and should always remember to have fun with itself) and should never be afraid to laugh at its own ridiculousness. Black Comedy 40k is infinitely superior to Grimdark 40k. It's why I actually rather like /tg/'s interpretation of the setting (when stripped out of the racist and sexist jokes, so more towards Text to Speech Device) where everyone's a lunatic played for laughs.

Manchu wrote:
@Kain

But none of that is in dispute and none of it supports the theory that ork ammo = psyker power. You seem to be on the verge of arguing that all orks are psykers and firing their weapons is a psychic power equivalent to something like a Grey Knight using Smite.

 Deadshot wrote:
Or how anything they make actually works because the laws of physics say it shouldn't.

You could say the same of Necron tech. Except the Necrons aren't meant to be jokey (or at least Oldcrons weren't) so we just accept it as super science. Same with the Imperium.

Oldcrons had C'tan which literally made up laws of physics as it pleased them. So powerful they had to be Sharded for a new codex because even fluffwise they were OOOOOP. And the thing with Necrons is their tech doesn't break laws of physics, they make use of laws humans haven't discovered or understand yet. Orks slap a tube and a trigger onto a box and it fires .50 rounds, somehow.

 Kain wrote:
Personally I like 40k being a ridiculous and silly black comedy setting full of over the top insane lunacy and hilarious violations of common sense rather than a dour place that takes itself seriously and forgets that its roots as a satire on fascism and Space Opera.

Sure, agreed. But I thinking needing to explain Ork logistics at all, including by reference to a "psychic gestalt," is an example of the latter as opposed to the former.

 Deadshot wrote:

Manchu wrote:
@Kain

But none of that is in dispute and none of it supports the theory that ork ammo = psyker power. You seem to be on the verge of arguing that all orks are psykers and firing their weapons is a psychic power equivalent to something like a Grey Knight using Smite.

 Deadshot wrote:
Or how anything they make actually works because the laws of physics say it shouldn't.

You could say the same of Necron tech. Except the Necrons aren't meant to be jokey (or at least Oldcrons weren't) so we just accept it as super science. Same with the Imperium.

Oldcrons had C'tan which literally made up laws of physics as it pleased them. So powerful they had to be Sharded for a new codex because even fluffwise they were OOOOOP. And the thing with Necrons is their tech doesn't break laws of physics, they make use of laws humans haven't discovered or understand yet. Orks slap a tube and a trigger onto a box and it fires .50 rounds, somehow.

Citation needed.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

theocracity wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


Yeah it's this level of technical brilliant that I think should really be brought back more strongly to Orks. Their whole schtick is that they're big dumb comedic brutes that talk like football hooligans, which is utterly deceptive

I think people massively overplay the effect of the Ork's gestalt field, mainly based on information they've read online.

The actual evidence of the effect of the gestalt field is fantastically limited. In Xenology (quite an outdated book) it's mentioned that the Tech Magos observed an Ork firing a gun that was later found to have its trigger disconnected. However, that's hardly strong evidence suggesting 'the Ork believed it would fire so it did'. Occam's Razor would suggest that the most likely scenario is just that the trigger mechanism broke inbetween the Ork firing and the Tech Magos looking at it, or even that the Tech Magos doesn't know what he's looking at.

Don't get me wrong, it definitely exists (as evidenced by tabletop rules like 'Da Red Wunz Go Fasta'. However, stating that it's the sole reason that Ork Technology works is a massive overegging and oversimplification.

I'm personally of the opinion that even that doesn't necessarily have a 'magic' explanation. Perhaps Orks use their instinctive knowledge of technology to get a gut feeling of a vehicle's capabilities, and have the cultural habit of painting good un's red.

You beautiful beautiful person! You've finally given me the explanation to finally kill this 'Ork gestalt field makes their tech work' thing stone dead in my personal headcanon

Now I'm happy with it as an explanation for Weirdboyz, and something that affects the collective emotions of a group of Orks (say, generating aggression and restlessness, and prompting behaviour that sorts out their hierarchy).

theocracity wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Here's quite an interesting idea potentially explaining the Mechanicus' confusion regarding Ork tech:

The Adeptus Mechanicus has theorised that this gestalt psychic field also has a telekinetic affect, allowing Ork technology to work. This argument has been debunked, even by the Imperium itself. It is believed that the reason this argument came into existence is that the Imperium believes that a 'Machine Spirit' inhabits all technology, and that this machine spirit serves humanity. If this is the case, without a machine spirit Ork machines could not work, requiring some psychic effect to justify their often devastating effect.

I like that a lot. There's a lot of overlap between the concepts of Machine Spirits and the Ork Gestalt Field as flexibly-defined explanations for how ludicrously complicated 40k technology actually runs - the exception being that there's a sensible in-universe explanation for machine spirits as fragments of AI and / or religiously doctrinized user manuals, rather than the pure hand-waving silliness of all Orks being wizards.

Yeah I really liked that too! I love the insight that it's another example of load of dogmatic flexibly-defined ill-understood pseudoscience to explain the technological wonders of times long past

I do like my interpretation of the 40k universe to be a little on the hard-scifi side of things though, so I've got no problem with people who like their interpretation to be a little wilder and use the gestalt field to explain tech. Just makes it less compelling for me!

Happy to help! Glad I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Having psykers do magic, or having the idea of a large population affecting the psychic imprint of an area, are both established elements of 40k that are well within the setting. So is having technology that is so far advanced that it's indistinguishable from magic. But if we're dealing with things that could have rational, empirical solutions then I don't see why people would feel the need to hand-wave them away with 'magic' solutions that don't even fit the established rules for magic in the setting.

 Deadshot wrote:
Orks slap a tube and a trigger onto a box and it fires .50 rounds, somehow.

Magic?

 Deadshot wrote:
they make use of laws humans haven't discovered or understand yet

But not magic?

No, they are both just examples of magic.

Manchu wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Orks slap a tube and a trigger onto a box and it fires .50 rounds, somehow.

Magic?

 Deadshot wrote:
they make use of laws humans haven't discovered or understand yet

But not magic?

No, they are both just examples of magic.

When you get down to it, 40k is a fantasy setting that runs on varying forms of magic from start to finish. Whether it's common narrative magic or just outright setting physics magic. It's not hard science fiction and it should never try to be. Leave harder scifi to stuff like the Culture or the Xeelee sequence.

I mean, even the lasgun probably relies on several violations of the laws of physics as we currently understand them to work (like energy density, because as far as I know there's no non-nuclear forms of energy generation that can fit the needs of an assault rifle sized DEW that can blow off limbs and provide for a hundred shots) and Chainswords wouldn't actually work because the chainblades would get stuck on bones and body armor.

Everything working because of "feth it, space magic" is perfectly acceptable if setting metaphysics is not supposed to be the key point of the setting. It's like Superman, there's not a single explanation for any of what he does that possibly squares with the rules of our reality but honestly the only people who care are physics nerds with nothing better to do.

 Kain wrote:

Manchu wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Orks slap a tube and a trigger onto a box and it fires .50 rounds, somehow.

Magic?

 Deadshot wrote:
they make use of laws humans haven't discovered or understand yet

But not magic?

No, they are both just examples of magic.

When you get down to it, 40k is a fantasy setting that runs on varying forms of magic from start to finish. Whether it's common narrative magic or just outright setting physics magic. It's not hard science fiction and it should never try to be. Leave harder scifi to stuff like the Culture or the Xeelee sequence.

I mean, even the lasgun probably relies on several violations of the laws of physics as we currently understand them to work (like energy density, because as far as I know there's no non-nuclear forms of energy generation that can fit the needs of an assault rifle sized DEW that can blow off limbs and provide for a hundred shots) and Chainswords wouldn't actually work because the chainblades would get stuck on bones and body armor.

Everything working because of "feth it, space magic" is perfectly acceptable if setting metaphysics is not supposed to be the key point of the setting.

But 40k magic has rules that it follows, none of which is being followed when we talk about Orks firing magic bullets out of sticks that they think are guns.

40k magic is chaotic, dangerous and flashy. It affects the people who use it such that they go mad, or have to take precautions to protect themselves. It has a palpable presence that sensitive users can detect.

None of these rules are followed by the exaggerated examples of the gestalt field.

theocracity wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Manchu wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Orks slap a tube and a trigger onto a box and it fires .50 rounds, somehow.

Magic?

 Deadshot wrote:
they make use of laws humans haven't discovered or understand yet

But not magic?

No, they are both just examples of magic.

When you get down to it, 40k is a fantasy setting that runs on varying forms of magic from start to finish. Whether it's common narrative magic or just outright setting physics magic. It's not hard science fiction and it should never try to be. Leave harder scifi to stuff like the Culture or the Xeelee sequence.

I mean, even the lasgun probably relies on several violations of the laws of physics as we currently understand them to work (like energy density, because as far as I know there's no non-nuclear forms of energy generation that can fit the needs of an assault rifle sized DEW that can blow off limbs and provide for a hundred shots) and Chainswords wouldn't actually work because the chainblades would get stuck on bones and body armor.

Everything working because of "feth it, space magic" is perfectly acceptable if setting metaphysics is not supposed to be the key point of the setting.

But 40k magic has rules that it follows, none of which is being followed when we talk about Orks firing magic bullets out of sticks that they think are guns.

40k isn't Mistborn. The so called "rules" of its magic are at best very loosely followed guidelines that authors routinely ignore or alter their interpretations of how the details work whenever they feel it suits them. Which makes a certain kind of sense because the warp is an artistic realm of emotion and feeling and not a rational realm of rules and reason. It's like Doctor Strange's magic; there's some very loosely established guidelines in the comics but authors ignore, alter or do away with them as they feel like it because the magic is ultimately just a tool to serve a story. In a game you need rules otherwise you might as well be doing play by post role playing but a story only needs rules if the author feels they are necessary.

Manchu wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Orks slap a tube and a trigger onto a box and it fires .50 rounds, somehow.

Magic?

 Deadshot wrote:
they make use of laws humans haven't discovered or understand yet

But not magic?

No, they are both just examples of magic.

People thought planes were magic. Now they're science.
YOu say Necrons are magic. Eventually they'll be science, when we figure out how to work it.
Orks are magic, because we long ago figured out how gunpowder weapons and fossil fuel combustion engines work, but ork gak doesn't work when anyone else uses it.

 Kain wrote:

theocracity wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Manchu wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Orks slap a tube and a trigger onto a box and it fires .50 rounds, somehow.

Magic?

 Deadshot wrote:
they make use of laws humans haven't discovered or understand yet

But not magic?

No, they are both just examples of magic.

When you get down to it, 40k is a fantasy setting that runs on varying forms of magic from start to finish. Whether it's common narrative magic or just outright setting physics magic. It's not hard science fiction and it should never try to be. Leave harder scifi to stuff like the Culture or the Xeelee sequence.

I mean, even the lasgun probably relies on several violations of the laws of physics as we currently understand them to work (like energy density, because as far as I know there's no non-nuclear forms of energy generation that can fit the needs of an assault rifle sized DEW that can blow off limbs and provide for a hundred shots) and Chainswords wouldn't actually work because the chainblades would get stuck on bones and body armor.

Everything working because of "feth it, space magic" is perfectly acceptable if setting metaphysics is not supposed to be the key point of the setting.

But 40k magic has rules that it follows, none of which is being followed when we talk about Orks firing magic bullets out of sticks that they think are guns.

40k isn't Mistborn. The so called "rules" of its magic are at best very loosely followed guidelines that authors routinely ignore or alter their interpretations of how the details work whenever they feel it suits them. Which makes a certain kind of sense because the warp is an artistic realm of emotion and feeling and not a rational realm of rules and reason.

But those loosely followed guidelines still fit the feel of the setting. Check my edit above for what I'm referring to.

40k magic is chaotic, dangerous and flashy. It affects the people who use it such that they go mad, or have to take precautions to protect themselves. It has a palpable presence that sensitive users can detect.

None of these rules are followed by the exaggerated examples of the gestalt field.

Going outside those guidelines breaks suspension of disbelief in the setting. I think the only reason the gestalt field idea has had legs, rather than being rejected as setting-breaking outright, is because orks are also known as comedic rule breakers so they somehow get a pass. I think that's bunk - even rule breakers shouldn't be breaking the feel of the setting. Unless they're deadpool.

 Deadshot wrote:
People thought planes were magic. Now they're science.
YOu say Necrons are magic. Eventually they'll be science, when we figure out how to work it.
Orks are magic, because we long ago figured out how gunpowder weapons and fossil fuel combustion engines work, but ork gak doesn't work when anyone else uses it.

Or maybe one day the poor benighted Mechanicum will finally advance to the point of understanding Ork science instead of superstitiously concluding out of sheer ignorance, hatred, and jealousy that it must be magic.

theocracity wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Manchu wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Orks slap a tube and a trigger onto a box and it fires .50 rounds, somehow.

Magic?

 Deadshot wrote:
they make use of laws humans haven't discovered or understand yet

But not magic?

No, they are both just examples of magic.

When you get down to it, 40k is a fantasy setting that runs on varying forms of magic from start to finish. Whether it's common narrative magic or just outright setting physics magic. It's not hard science fiction and it should never try to be. Leave harder scifi to stuff like the Culture or the Xeelee sequence.

I mean, even the lasgun probably relies on several violations of the laws of physics as we currently understand them to work (like energy density, because as far as I know there's no non-nuclear forms of energy generation that can fit the needs of an assault rifle sized DEW that can blow off limbs and provide for a hundred shots) and Chainswords wouldn't actually work because the chainblades would get stuck on bones and body armor.

Everything working because of "feth it, space magic" is perfectly acceptable if setting metaphysics is not supposed to be the key point of the setting.

But 40k magic has rules that it follows, none of which is being followed when we talk about Orks firing magic bullets out of sticks that they think are guns.

40k magic is chaotic, dangerous and flashy. It affects the people who use it such that they go mad, or have to take precautions to protect themselves. It has a palpable presence that sensitive users can detect.

None of these rules are followed by the exaggerated examples of the gestalt field.

Well its only Chaotic to the human mind which has a rigid and fixed idea what order and physics are. Orks are chaotic because to a human who lives in society system X, Ork system Y is complete madness. Same with the warp. The warp has rules, so to speak, about how it can be used in the Materium, but the Orks can use it differently because its the equivilent of a Librarian saying "But you can't do that!" and an Ork saying " Kan it 'umie, I just did."

 Deadshot wrote:

Manchu wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Orks slap a tube and a trigger onto a box and it fires .50 rounds, somehow.

Magic?

 Deadshot wrote:
they make use of laws humans haven't discovered or understand yet

But not magic?

No, they are both just examples of magic.

People thought planes were magic. Now they're science.
YOu say Necrons are magic. Eventually they'll be science, when we figure out how to work it.
Orks are magic, because we long ago figured out how gunpowder weapons and fossil fuel combustion engines work, but ork gak doesn't work when anyone else uses it.

That's verifiably untrue. We have examples of Catachans using Ork shootas, and humans commandeering Ork trukks (can't remember if it was a Cain book or a Gaunts Ghost one...a commissar was involved :p).

Manchu wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
People thought planes were magic. Now they're science.
YOu say Necrons are magic. Eventually they'll be science, when we figure out how to work it.
Orks are magic, because we long ago figured out how gunpowder weapons and fossil fuel combustion engines work, but ork gak doesn't work when anyone else uses it.

Or maybe one day the poor benighted Mechanicum will finally advance to the point of understanding Ork science instead of superstitiously concluding out of sheer ignorance, hatred, and jealousy that it must be magic.

Or the stuff genuinely doesn't work and it really is just magic like half the setting.

theocracity wrote:

 Kain wrote:

theocracity wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Manchu wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Orks slap a tube and a trigger onto a box and it fires .50 rounds, somehow.

Magic?

 Deadshot wrote:
they make use of laws humans haven't discovered or understand yet

But not magic?

No, they are both just examples of magic.

When you get down to it, 40k is a fantasy setting that runs on varying forms of magic from start to finish. Whether it's common narrative magic or just outright setting physics magic. It's not hard science fiction and it should never try to be. Leave harder scifi to stuff like the Culture or the Xeelee sequence.

I mean, even the lasgun probably relies on several violations of the laws of physics as we currently understand them to work (like energy density, because as far as I know there's no non-nuclear forms of energy generation that can fit the needs of an assault rifle sized DEW that can blow off limbs and provide for a hundred shots) and Chainswords wouldn't actually work because the chainblades would get stuck on bones and body armor.

Everything working because of "feth it, space magic" is perfectly acceptable if setting metaphysics is not supposed to be the key point of the setting.

But 40k magic has rules that it follows, none of which is being followed when we talk about Orks firing magic bullets out of sticks that they think are guns.

40k isn't Mistborn. The so called "rules" of its magic are at best very loosely followed guidelines that authors routinely ignore or alter their interpretations of how the details work whenever they feel it suits them. Which makes a certain kind of sense because the warp is an artistic realm of emotion and feeling and not a rational realm of rules and reason.

But those loosely followed guidelines still fit the feel of the setting. Check my edit above for what I'm referring to.

Going outside those guidelines breaks suspension of disbelief in the setting. I think the only reason the gestalt field idea has had legs, rather than being rejected as setting-breaking outright, is because orks are also known as comedic rule breakers so they somehow get a pass. I think that's bunk - even rule breakers shouldn't be breaking the feel of the setting. Unless they're deadpool.

Not particularly? Jonah Orion goes through Dawn of War 2 without once being even moderately imperiled by his own powers. Some authors have basically completely different views of how psychic powers work, and many of these differences aren't even based on whether the authors view warp power as closer to science fiction psionics or to fantasy magic. There is no consistency and there is no canon with Games Workshop having explicitly abdicated the responsibility of curating canon to the fans to decide what they want to be canon. By GW's statements you are within your rights to completely disregard everything Games Workshop, Relic, the Black Library and more have ever written and have something completely different be canon. Sure it'd be kind of pointless because why even play 40k at that point, but you're allowed to do it and you'd be just as right as anyone else. Perhaps this is a product of GW deciding that if the Black Library and the Video Game developers wanted as much creative freedom as possible then GW wasn't going to be arsed to police what they were doing. Perhaps it's because GW legitimately takes post-modernist stances to the very idea of canon.

But the result is undeniably that there is a billion and a half portrayals of how the warp works and what it's power manifests as being like, and you have the fandom all arguing over which is the true canon instead of accepting that there is no truth in 40k. Simply what you want to believe out of the pile of lies and inaccuracies. This is in my opinion, the best way GW could approach canon and it's how everyone should approach shared universes. Nobody is wrong or right, they simply have their own headcanons and none are more correct than the other.

 Deadshot wrote:
Or the stuff genuinely doesn't work and it really is just magic like half the setting.

Just like how lasguns work because of the human psychic gestalt.

 Deadshot wrote:

theocracity wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Manchu wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Orks slap a tube and a trigger onto a box and it fires .50 rounds, somehow.

Magic?

 Deadshot wrote:
they make use of laws humans haven't discovered or understand yet

But not magic?

No, they are both just examples of magic.

When you get down to it, 40k is a fantasy setting that runs on varying forms of magic from start to finish. Whether it's common narrative magic or just outright setting physics magic. It's not hard science fiction and it should never try to be. Leave harder scifi to stuff like the Culture or the Xeelee sequence.

I mean, even the lasgun probably relies on several violations of the laws of physics as we currently understand them to work (like energy density, because as far as I know there's no non-nuclear forms of energy generation that can fit the needs of an assault rifle sized DEW that can blow off limbs and provide for a hundred shots) and Chainswords wouldn't actually work because the chainblades would get stuck on bones and body armor.

Everything working because of "feth it, space magic" is perfectly acceptable if setting metaphysics is not supposed to be the key point of the setting.

But 40k magic has rules that it follows, none of which is being followed when we talk about Orks firing magic bullets out of sticks that they think are guns.

40k magic is chaotic, dangerous and flashy. It affects the people who use it such that they go mad, or have to take precautions to protect themselves. It has a palpable presence that sensitive users can detect.

None of these rules are followed by the exaggerated examples of the gestalt field.

Well its only Chaotic to the human mind which has a rigid and fixed idea what order and physics are. Orks are chaotic because to a human who lives in society system X, Ork system Y is complete madness. Same with the warp. The warp has rules, so to speak, about how it can be used in the Materium, but the Orks can use it differently because its the equivilent of a Librarian saying "But you can't do that!" and an Ork saying " Kan it 'umie, I just did."

Then what is there no difference in the chaotic nature of warp magic when a Wyrdboy does it? Wyrdboys follow the same general rules of flashy, dangerous, mind-altering magic as Librarians and Sorcerers - the only difference is the lack of demonic threat.

Why isn't there green lightning and flashes of roaring power when an Ork conjures a bullet as there is when a Wyrdboy vomits Waaagh! energy at someone? Because it isn't magic, and no bullet is being conjured.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:

theocracity wrote:

 Kain wrote:

theocracity wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Manchu wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Orks slap a tube and a trigger onto a box and it fires .50 rounds, somehow.

Magic?

 Deadshot wrote:
they make use of laws humans haven't discovered or understand yet

But not magic?

No, they are both just examples of magic.

When you get down to it, 40k is a fantasy setting that runs on varying forms of magic from start to finish. Whether it's common narrative magic or just outright setting physics magic. It's not hard science fiction and it should never try to be. Leave harder scifi to stuff like the Culture or the Xeelee sequence.

I mean, even the lasgun probably relies on several violations of the laws of physics as we currently understand them to work (like energy density, because as far as I know there's no non-nuclear forms of energy generation that can fit the needs of an assault rifle sized DEW that can blow off limbs and provide for a hundred shots) and Chainswords wouldn't actually work because the chainblades would get stuck on bones and body armor.

Everything working because of "feth it, space magic" is perfectly acceptable if setting metaphysics is not supposed to be the key point of the setting.

But 40k magic has rules that it follows, none of which is being followed when we talk about Orks firing magic bullets out of sticks that they think are guns.

40k isn't Mistborn. The so called "rules" of its magic are at best very loosely followed guidelines that authors routinely ignore or alter their interpretations of how the details work whenever they feel it suits them. Which makes a certain kind of sense because the warp is an artistic realm of emotion and feeling and not a rational realm of rules and reason.

But those loosely followed guidelines still fit the feel of the setting. Check my edit above for what I'm referring to.

Going outside those guidelines breaks suspension of disbelief in the setting. I think the only reason the gestalt field idea has had legs, rather than being rejected as setting-breaking outright, is because orks are also known as comedic rule breakers so they somehow get a pass. I think that's bunk - even rule breakers shouldn't be breaking the feel of the setting. Unless they're deadpool.

Not particularly? Jonah Orion goes through Dawn of War 2 without once being even moderately imperiled by his own powers..

I assume that is a librarian? One who's wearing a psychic hood, a piece of equipment specifically created to protect them from the consequences of their powers?

And if we're talking Dawn of War, let's examine what happened to the Librarian in the original dawn of war....

Or maybe they have very huge ammo stocks produced by grot, human, and xeno slaves.


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theocracity wrote:
Then what is there no difference in the chaotic nature of warp magic when a Wyrdboy does it? Wyrdboys follow the same general rules of flashy, dangerous, mind-altering magic as Librarians and Sorcerers - the only difference is the lack of demonic threat.

Why isn't there green lightning and flashes of roaring power when an Ork conjures a bullet as there is when a Wyrdboy vomits Waaagh! energy at someone? Because it isn't magic, and no bullet is being conjured.

I don't subscribe to the "warp-made bullets" idea, but I will say this:

The common Boy doesn't produce wyrdboy effects for the same reason that there's not flashy psychic presences whenever Tyranids use the Synapse to communicate. The Ork WAAAGH! is actually relatively safe to use, reinforced by the inherent genetically created beliefs of the Orks. But Wyrdboyz are different than Boyz in terms of raw power and effect, and they draw upon the warp in a more direct and dangerous way, similar to Zoanthropes.

theocracity wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

theocracity wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Manchu wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Orks slap a tube and a trigger onto a box and it fires .50 rounds, somehow.

Magic?

 Deadshot wrote:
they make use of laws humans haven't discovered or understand yet

But not magic?

No, they are both just examples of magic.

When you get down to it, 40k is a fantasy setting that runs on varying forms of magic from start to finish. Whether it's common narrative magic or just outright setting physics magic. It's not hard science fiction and it should never try to be. Leave harder scifi to stuff like the Culture or the Xeelee sequence.

I mean, even the lasgun probably relies on several violations of the laws of physics as we currently understand them to work (like energy density, because as far as I know there's no non-nuclear forms of energy generation that can fit the needs of an assault rifle sized DEW that can blow off limbs and provide for a hundred shots) and Chainswords wouldn't actually work because the chainblades would get stuck on bones and body armor.

Everything working because of "feth it, space magic" is perfectly acceptable if setting metaphysics is not supposed to be the key point of the setting.

But 40k magic has rules that it follows, none of which is being followed when we talk about Orks firing magic bullets out of sticks that they think are guns.

40k magic is chaotic, dangerous and flashy. It affects the people who use it such that they go mad, or have to take precautions to protect themselves. It has a palpable presence that sensitive users can detect.

None of these rules are followed by the exaggerated examples of the gestalt field.

Well its only Chaotic to the human mind which has a rigid and fixed idea what order and physics are. Orks are chaotic because to a human who lives in society system X, Ork system Y is complete madness. Same with the warp. The warp has rules, so to speak, about how it can be used in the Materium, but the Orks can use it differently because its the equivilent of a Librarian saying "But you can't do that!" and an Ork saying " Kan it 'umie, I just did."

Then what is there no difference in the chaotic nature of warp magic when a Wyrdboy does it? Wyrdboys follow the same general rules of flashy, dangerous, mind-altering magic as Librarians and Sorcerers - the only difference is the lack of demonic threat.

Why isn't there green lightning and flashes of roaring power when an Ork conjures a bullet as there is when a Wyrdboy vomits Waaagh! energy at someone? Because it isn't magic, and no bullet is being conjured.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:

theocracity wrote:

 Kain wrote:

theocracity wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Manchu wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Orks slap a tube and a trigger onto a box and it fires .50 rounds, somehow.

Magic?

 Deadshot wrote:
they make use of laws humans haven't discovered or understand yet

But not magic?

No, they are both just examples of magic.

When you get down to it, 40k is a fantasy setting that runs on varying forms of magic from start to finish. Whether it's common narrative magic or just outright setting physics magic. It's not hard science fiction and it should never try to be. Leave harder scifi to stuff like the Culture or the Xeelee sequence.

I mean, even the lasgun probably relies on several violations of the laws of physics as we currently understand them to work (like energy density, because as far as I know there's no non-nuclear forms of energy generation that can fit the needs of an assault rifle sized DEW that can blow off limbs and provide for a hundred shots) and Chainswords wouldn't actually work because the chainblades would get stuck on bones and body armor.

Everything working because of "feth it, space magic" is perfectly acceptable if setting metaphysics is not supposed to be the key point of the setting.

But 40k magic has rules that it follows, none of which is being followed when we talk about Orks firing magic bullets out of sticks that they think are guns.

40k isn't Mistborn. The so called "rules" of its magic are at best very loosely followed guidelines that authors routinely ignore or alter their interpretations of how the details work whenever they feel it suits them. Which makes a certain kind of sense because the warp is an artistic realm of emotion and feeling and not a rational realm of rules and reason.

But those loosely followed guidelines still fit the feel of the setting. Check my edit above for what I'm referring to.

Going outside those guidelines breaks suspension of disbelief in the setting. I think the only reason the gestalt field idea has had legs, rather than being rejected as setting-breaking outright, is because orks are also known as comedic rule breakers so they somehow get a pass. I think that's bunk - even rule breakers shouldn't be breaking the feel of the setting. Unless they're deadpool.

Not particularly? Jonah Orion goes through Dawn of War 2 without once being even moderately imperiled by his own powers..

I assume that is a librarian? One who's wearing a psychic hood, a piece of equipment specifically created to protect them from the consequences of their powers?

And if we're talking Dawn of War, let's examine what happened to the Librarian in the original dawn of war....

Isador wasn't corrupted by his own powers, he was directly being corrupted by Sindri Myr talking to him and taunting him almost constantly.

Meanwhile Jonah can: Walk into and out of the warp unharmed: Throws psychic shooting attacks as his standard means of dealing damage, spam psychic powers like there's no tomorrow without so much as a daemonic hiccup, and the only way to get him corrupted is to hand him chaos corrupted wargear, fail to bring him on some missions (in which he becomes corrupted out of resentment for not being brought along and not by his own powers), or leaving him on the space hulk for too long.

Throughout Dawn of War, the only psykers who have ever been portrayed as being at risk from their own powers were the Imperial Guard's sanctioned psykers, and the worst they can ever do is cause themselves some damage occasionally. Everyone else can cast their spells with 100% reliability and safety and absolutely nobody ever considers their psykers to be a particularly great threat to their own team throughout all seven games released so far. Not even so much as a single mention of wariness besides Crull saying he'd rather not have to use Sorcerers because he's a World Eater.

It's easy enough to find other examples of psykers having wildly incompatible depictions in the black library and in the video games. 40k has absolutely no internal consistency so I'm not sure why you'd be surprised when you find that a series legendary for being incredibly internally inconsistent is surprise surprise, internally inconsistent.

 Melissia wrote:
Or maybe they have very huge ammo stocks produced by grot, human, and xeno slaves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

theocracity wrote:
Then what is there no difference in the chaotic nature of warp magic when a Wyrdboy does it? Wyrdboys follow the same general rules of flashy, dangerous, mind-altering magic as Librarians and Sorcerers - the only difference is the lack of demonic threat.

Why isn't there green lightning and flashes of roaring power when an Ork conjures a bullet as there is when a Wyrdboy vomits Waaagh! energy at someone? Because it isn't magic, and no bullet is being conjured.

I don't subscribe to the "warp-made bullets" idea, but I will say this:

The common Boy doesn't produce wyrdboy effects for the same reason that there's not flashy psychic presences whenever Tyranids use the Synapse to communicate. The Ork WAAAGH! is actually relatively safe to use, reinforced by the inherent genetically created beliefs of the Orks. But Wyrdboyz are different than Boyz in terms of raw power and effect, and they draw upon the warp in a more direct and dangerous way, similar to Zoanthropes.

The Tyranid psychic presence has a quantifiable effect - the Shadow in the Warp. I can't recall examples of Ork presence creating a palpable psychic effect, beyond the biggest Waaagh!s, and even then it's not because of their use of common technology.

This multiquote is getting out of hand, and I'm not sure that the topic is entirely relevant, so I'm gonna leave it at this: 40k has long portrayed access and use of psychic powers as opening oneself up to corruption and danger. The fact that Space Marines have enough plot armor to ignore this most of the time doesn't change the fact that it's still a part of the setting, and something that can be used to corrupt them any time it's plot relevant.

That's a gameplay mechanic more than a lore one. I would suggest looking at the Fantasy Flight Games rpgs, which go in to some very strong depth about the usage of psychic powers.

In fact, there's ways to safely use psychic powers in the FFG rpgs! By fettering your power and only utilizing the weaker forms of powers, you can utilize them relatively safely in the right conditions. The more powerful a psyker you are, the easier it is for you to utilize powers safely... and at the same time, the stronger the temptation it is to utilize powers recklessly, because of the sheer absurdities that you can accomplish by throwing power at a problem (such as throwing up a barrier of stopped time powerful enough to stop a nova cannon blast, or conflagrating the souls of every enemy on the battlefield, or what have you).

Psykers chose a power level-- Fettered (1/2 psy rating, no chance for psychic phenomena), Unfettered (psy rating, standard chance), or Push (psy rating +3 for sanctionites increased chance). Then they made a power test based off of their willpower to pull it off, and utilize their effective psy rating for the effect.

Oddly enough, in this ruleset daemons cannot utilize powers as Fettered, but are unaffected by psychic phenomena unless they trigger a Peril of the Warp even when Pushing. Perils are really bad rolls on the psychic phenomena tables. Psychic phenomena are triggered by doubles on the willpower roll to manifest the power (meaning it can happen even if you succeed); most of them are benign but creepy, like "All people within line of sight to the psyker forget something trivial", or mirrors within X distance shatter, or all plant life within X distance dies.


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theocracity wrote:
The Tyranid psychic presence has a quantifiable effect - the Shadow in the Warp.

Only produced by hive fleets, and the effect is weakened for splinter fleets. Just like an Ork WAAAGH! being dependent on the size of the horde. A "seeding" scout party of a few lictors, a warrior, and a couple dozen gaunts and gants? Not gonna produce a Shadow In the Warp, even when they're all synapsed to the Warrior.

 Melissia wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

theocracity wrote:
The Tyranid psychic presence has a quantifiable effect - the Shadow in the Warp.

Only produced by hive fleets, and the effect is weakened for splinter fleets. Just like an Ork WAAAGH! being dependent on the size of the horde. A "seeding" scout party of a few lictors, a warrior, and a couple dozen gaunts and gants? Not gonna produce a Shadow In the Warp.

Maybe not as much as one, but it's also not going to be doing any physics-warping. A psyker who sees them would know there's a group of drones being controlled by a more powerful psyker, and could potentially feel its mind control effects. The same psyker seeing an Ork would not get the same feeling of psychic power just because the Ork's gun is a piece of crap.

theocracity wrote:

 Melissia wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

theocracity wrote:
The Tyranid psychic presence has a quantifiable effect - the Shadow in the Warp.

Only produced by hive fleets, and the effect is weakened for splinter fleets. Just like an Ork WAAAGH! being dependent on the size of the horde. A "seeding" scout party of a few lictors, a warrior, and a couple dozen gaunts and gants? Not gonna produce a Shadow In the Warp.

Maybe not as much as one, but it's also not going to be doing any physics-warping. A psyker who sees them would know there's a group of drones being controlled by a more powerful psyker, and could potentially feel its mind control effects. The same psyker seeing an Ork would not get the same feeling of psychic power just because the Ork's gun is a piece of crap.

Path of the seer explicitly mentions that the Eldar can feel the psychic presence of the WAAAGH surrounding the Orks and twisting the skeins of fate through its very power as the simple presence of Orks gathered in a WAAAGH alter the possible futures that destiny can take. The WAAAGH field a very real thing. It's a natural product of Orkoid physiology. Likely because as mentioned, the Orks were a psychic soldier race made for an apocalyptic war against an army of star eating gods and their unliving robot minions.

Okay, not as much of one. To the point of not effecting the use of psychic powers by others. So in other words, it flavors the warp Tyranid-flavored. Just like the WAAAGH! flavors the warp Orky.

Let's bring this back around to the main topic - conceding that the Waaagh is a psychic field generated by Orks getting together and that said psychic field has some affect on material reality. These things aren't really in dispute. The question is, do Orks guns use actual ammo that has to be manufactured or does the Waaagh phenomenon mean that Ork guns don't need material ammunition in order to fire?

Given that we've had Orks munitions caches being blown up, I think it's safe to say that usually they use real ammo.

Manchu wrote:
Let's bring this back around to the main topic - conceding that the Waaagh is a psychic field generated by Orks getting together and that said psychic field has some affect on material reality. These things aren't really in dispute. The question is, do Orks guns use actual ammo that has to be manufactured or does the Waaagh phenomenon mean that Ork guns don't need material ammunition in order to fire?

Very much the former.

I don't dispute that Waaagh! energy and the psychic presence it creates real. It definitely has a presence and power that's palpable to psykers and drives Ork mass psychology, and that it can be harnessed for more concrete purposes by exceptional individuals like Wyrdboys and Ghazkull. I'll even admit that, in high concentrations, it may act as probability lubricant to keep the more insane excesses of Orks directed towards a common purpose.

However, there's no need in my mind for it to apply to the commonplace physical realities of everyday Orks. There's plenty of normal explanation for how they make use of slapdash equipment without venturing into superhero territory, especially when its application breaks the feel of the setting for no good reason.