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 xttz wrote:

NoggintheNog wrote:I would imagine for the corporate side of the business, presenting this game at one of the biggest trade shows for the industry in the world, to pull in new retailers and then offering them 10 each to sell would more likely be the bit where people lose jobs.

I can tell you from experience that managers are waaaaaaay more likely to be sacked for overproducing and tying up resources on dead stock than for underestimating demand and temporarily running out..

Great.

Now lets talk about the situation we have here rather than one you just invented.

They went to a trade show to attract new retailers, they used this game, billed as a gateway for the entire range, to entice people. Neither at the event itself, nor in any of the 4 week of marketing going into this produc for customers, was it mentioned, at all, it was a limited edition one time only release.

Until it was released. Now, its a one shot deal with a limited run.

That is a huge issue for corporate, because its a complete disconnect between marketing and production at a level that is hard to comprehend in any competent business. It won;t be marketing losing jobs (unless they ignored the limited edition nature purposely) it will be whoever made the choice of a limited run one shot game in production without informing marketing, and seeing reactions from GWs own store management, anyone in their own retail department.

There is a problem somewhere, and for a company about to role out an entire new edition of their core product, its something they need to fix very quickly.

I still don't see the fascination people seem to have with stock still being on shelves/warehouses. Surely this is needed to some degree.

If I buy and get into a new game. I want that game on the shelves or at least available somehow. I hate it when a pal comes round, has a new game of something then says he wants to get into it himself. Only to be told that it's no longer available, or those figues were limited edition or something. The way people talk on this forum, it's like GW need to hit some magical sales number where exactly the amount of people that want it, get it and there's no longer stock left costing them money idle on shelves.

I still think the way GW have handled this game is poor. All it needs is a cheap softback book available in stores. Then anyone wanting to get into the GW universe, can buy a cheap rulebook and a single plastic box of figures and off they go. They then slowly build up to full on 40k. Gateway gaming. How are GW so blind to this. Do they really believe that everyone is a little Timmy whose parents spend the massive amount to get into 40k in one giant go.

I find it weird that they haven't posted a downloadable roster sheet yet. Or have I missed it?
I know it isn't out yet but the faction rules are so why not give us a roster?

Welp, I have been industriously hoarding leaks, and it seems the only thing we haven't seen screenshots of is the missions and the skills tables. Or have those been posted at some point?

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
I still don't see the fascination people seem to have with stock still being on shelves/warehouses. Surely this is needed to some degree.

You only want stock that you think you're going to sell. GW presumably have better data on their own sales projections than you do (although they've admitted that in this case their projections were wrong, and they're looking at their options). Unsold stock with little chance of being sold is just a waste of money, and an ongoing cost to your business.

I still think the way GW have handled this game is poor. All it needs is a cheap softback book available in stores. Then anyone wanting to get into the GW universe, can buy a cheap rulebook and a single plastic box of figures and off they go. They then slowly build up to full on 40k. Gateway gaming. How are GW so blind to this. Do they really believe that everyone is a little Timmy whose parents spend the massive amount to get into 40k in one giant go.

GW introduces game that lowers the cost of entry to 40k, Gimgamgoo complains because they didn't hit a home run right out of the gate by also making it available as a softback book. Strong rumour is that they're going to make the rules a free PDF in the next few weeks. Hardly seems worth throwing a fit over.

 Bull0 wrote:

I still think the way GW have handled this game is poor. All it needs is a cheap softback book available in stores. Then anyone wanting to get into the GW universe, can buy a cheap rulebook and a single plastic box of figures and off they go. They then slowly build up to full on 40k. Gateway gaming. How are GW so blind to this. Do they really believe that everyone is a little Timmy whose parents spend the massive amount to get into 40k in one giant go.

GW introduces game that lowers the cost of entry to 40k, Gimgamgoo complains because they didn't hit a home run right out of the gate by also making it available as a softback book. Strong rumour is that they're going to make the rules a free PDF in the next few weeks. Hardly seems worth throwing a fit over.

A few points...

1. GW hasn't (yet) introduced a game that lowers the cost of entry to 40k. I expect only die hard 40k/necromunda fans managed to purchase SWA and not many that would be new blood to the hobby.
2. PDF's aren't useful to everyone. Quite a few people still like real books.
3. That was hardly a "fit". Several people I know do have fits and need a lot of medication/medical care.

Hopefully, GW will at least produce more of the printed rulebook, especially when the terrain becomes available.

So, has anybody created teams yet with what's out and about right now? Still hoping for an Ork list that's less blurry, as I need to create something for my brother to get started with.

I've managed to create something that's pretty close to how they represent the Militarum Tempestus in this game (only thing I can't get is the photo-visor), plus it gives me a great opportunity to do something I've been wanting to do since I saw art of it in the 3rd edition Imperial Guard codex, but can now do legally since the rules allow for it:



Storm Trooper with shotgun.

If GW do release the rules in either a physical or digital format then Shadow War could be used as an entry mode but it would be a lot easier to do it when everything is packaged together.

(you could make them in regular 40K as Veterans with Grenadier upgrade, in case you want a carapace squad with shotties - no hotshot mix obvs but would allow you to make more)

True, but it just wouldn't feel the same or something.

I'm thinking about running Orks - the low BS looks like it'll be pretty brutal. Hitting on 7s when targeting heavy cover.

Ignoring the heavier weapons for a swarm of Yoof Shootas seems the best option at the moment, unless there is a cap I haven't seen somewhere

xttz wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:
the constant failure to meet market demand shows someone is failing at their job and should have investors up in arms.

Citation needed, as I'm struggling to remember which releases GW "constantly" struggled to meet demand for.

I don't need to cite anything because I've experienced it first hand...
Off the top of my head the following sold out while on preorder or within the first month of release:
Void shield generator
Plasma Obliterator
A number of WHFB end times releases
A number of different faction branded dice
A number of Blood Bowl releases
Battletome Bonespitterz
Triumvirate of the Imperium
Imperial Space Marine
Battle Cannoness Veridyan

While many of these were eventually restocked, GW has not been shy about the fact that the peak of sales for an item occurs during the first 3 months of its release and dictates its overall profitability... a shortage no mattee how temporary negatively sales at a crucial time in their sales cycle. I'm sure there are more.

Additional ones I found:
Apocrypha books
Deathwatch Terminator Captain
Deathwatch bikers
Liquid green stuff

 insaniak wrote:

 xttz wrote:

I can tell you from experience that managers are waaaaaaay more likely to be sacked for overproducing and tying up resources on dead stock than for underestimating demand and temporarily running out. .

Except, again, it's not a matter of 'temporarily running out' when the product is intended as a single, one-and-done release.

 RexHavoc wrote:

Dice and gubbinz- The first time I saw this game being showed off, they said it was a going to be a great starting point for new players that want start 40k.

Yup, there's nothing like a limited edition set that they can no longer buy for getting newcomers into gaming...

Is this for real? It's honestly a limited release? I haven't read anything from Games Workshop to that effect, and I can't find anything on Google about it either.

If that's true, and they're legitimately not restocking these sets, then I don't see how anyone could defend GW in this instance. That's a straight up mistake, money left on the table. I would have bought one for sure, and my Facebook has been blowing up this week with folks itching to buy a copy that haven't bought anything 40k in more than a year.

And it was supposed to be... a starter set? Huh? Sounds like some of the GW employees at this trade show were talking out of their arses.

Vorian wrote:
I'm thinking about running Orks - the low BS looks like it'll be pretty brutal. Hitting on 7s when targeting heavy cover.

Ignoring the heavier weapons for a swarm of Yoof Shootas seems the best option at the moment, unless there is a cap I haven't seen somewhere

I think there's a cap of 10 - 13 models somewhere in the rules, with the option to field more models depending on the mission.

 Jambles wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 xttz wrote:

I can tell you from experience that managers are waaaaaaay more likely to be sacked for overproducing and tying up resources on dead stock than for underestimating demand and temporarily running out. .

Except, again, it's not a matter of 'temporarily running out' when the product is intended as a single, one-and-done release.

 RexHavoc wrote:

Dice and gubbinz- The first time I saw this game being showed off, they said it was a going to be a great starting point for new players that want start 40k.

Yup, there's nothing like a limited edition set that they can no longer buy for getting newcomers into gaming...

Is this for real? It's honestly a limited release? I haven't read anything from Games Workshop to that effect, and I can't find anything on Google about it either.

If that's true, and they're legitimately not restocking these sets, then I don't see how anyone could defend GW in this instance. That's a straight up mistake, money left on the table. I would have bought one for sure, and my Facebook has been blowing up this week with folks itching to buy a copy that haven't bought anything 40k in more than a year.

And it was supposed to be... a starter set? Huh? Sounds like some of the GW employees at this trade show were talking out of their arses.

In a surprise to everyone, it does indeed seem to have been a limited release - whilst stocks last on the website.

But changing messages over the weekend on their official FB feed means there is some hope that silly decisions will be changed!

I'd be fine if they wanted to sell the rules separately or have a PDF, and sell the terrain separately too. I don't need the box set, I have 2 necromuda sets worth of terrain that's still in good shape so I don't really need it, I just care about having the rules.

What do people think about the new movement stats - have they got it about right with the fluff? Tyranids look to be one of the few armies with different moves for different units.

 Necros wrote:
I'd be fine if they wanted to sell the rules separately or have a PDF, and sell the terrain separately too. I don't need the box set, I have 2 necromuda sets worth of terrain that's still in good shape so I don't really need it, I just care about having the rules.

Terrain was always going to be separate.

 RFHolloway wrote:
What do people think about the new movement stats - have they got it about right with the fluff? Tyranids look to be one of the few armies with different moves for different units.

A lot of the specialists have some handy fast movement, kind of surprised dark eldar move faster than normal eldar.

Liking that the Solitaire has an even more ridiculous statline than it did back in 2nd edition.

 RFHolloway wrote:
What do people think about the new movement stats - have they got it about right with the fluff? Tyranids look to be one of the few armies with different moves for different units.

They have just reverted back to old 40k MA stats, so they should fit nicely to those that remember. I've not seen Eldar stats though (trying to avoid spoilers for when I open the box on Friday!), are they MA5?

 notprop wrote:

 RFHolloway wrote:
What do people think about the new movement stats - have they got it about right with the fluff? Tyranids look to be one of the few armies with different moves for different units.

They have just reverted back to old 40k MA stats, so they should fit nicely to those that remember. I've not seen Eldar stats though (trying to avoid spoilers for when I open the box on Friday!), are they MA5?

All three Eldar are downloads, not in the book.

Book has Guard, Orks, and vanilla Marines.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:

1. GW hasn't (yet) introduced a game that lowers the cost of entry to 40k. I expect only die hard 40k/necromunda fans managed to purchase SWA and not many that would be new blood to the hobby.
2. PDF's aren't useful to everyone. Quite a few people still like real books.
3. That was hardly a "fit". Several people I know do have fits and need a lot of medication/medical care.

Hopefully, GW will at least produce more of the printed rulebook, especially when the terrain becomes available.

1) The original 'Kill Team' did just that (although i now notice that that's entirely disappeared from the webstore.)
2) 100%.

Edit: Never mind.

 BrookM wrote:

Vorian wrote:
I'm thinking about running Orks - the low BS looks like it'll be pretty brutal. Hitting on 7s when targeting heavy cover.

Ignoring the heavier weapons for a swarm of Yoof Shootas seems the best option at the moment, unless there is a cap I haven't seen somewhere

I think there's a cap of 10 - 13 models somewhere in the rules, with the option to field more models depending on the mission.

I think that's for missions with variable members turning up - say 2D6 turn up normal, the Orks would have 2d6 + 2, but selected from their normal roster.

I was thinking a Boss, 11 yoof shootas and some toys for the Boss to fill it out.


As for Dark Eldar vs Eldar movement. It's more the type of units selected. Banshees would be 6 too, while you see Scourge base movement is 5

So, in an attempt to add a slightly outsider perspective to the conversation, here's how I've viewed Shadow War: Armageddon as someone who started playing GW games over 20 years ago but completely left the GW bubble in 2012 and has stuck to the greater wargaming hobby as a whole ever since:

I follow GW news only inasmuch as it pops up in my usual wargaming news feeds. As such, I've been hearing that GW has been "getting better" over the last year or so, but a cursory glance at their prices and practices tells me they're still not what I consider "good" compared to other companies in the hobby. But now it seems like they're pushing a new "entry level" skirmish game at GAMA, to help get people into 40K with just one plastic box. That is good! And its based on the 2e rules, specifically the variant from Necromunda, and will use 40K factions instead of gangs! I need to parse the individual parts of my reaction to that:

* I have very fond memories of playing Necromunda.

* I mostly played WHFB at the time and didn't go fully into 40K until 3e, but I did dabble with 2e. And man, all of the best 40K war stories come out of the clunky charm of the 2e ruleset.

* I still haven't gotten around to eBaying off my Eldar yet, and I also have a box or two of Chaos Marines left over from my last, "Maybe what I need is the new perspective of a new army," attempt to stay interested in the game. That should be enough to try this game out with just an eBayed rulebook and my already existing terrain. Oh, and hey, look at that, they finally put Genestealer Cult models out again!

* I wanted exactly this game concept so badly 20 years ago.

So, now I'm somewhat curious and interested. So I start following the news, mainly here, but also on other boards and venues. And over this past weekend, the PDF with Eldar, Chaos, and Genestealer Cult lists dropped, so I got a chance to look them over. And the pre-order went up, and immediately sold out of the limited run stock. So, now I'm left with these observations:

* Despite the GAMA claims of being an entry-level starter, this was a limited edition, with fewer units produced than the (clearly unexpected by GW) high demand.

* The team lists are really rather simplistic, obviously designed to use 1-2 plastic boxes and no more, with the option of using a very limited, pre-defined spec-op from this exact list of 3-4 per list. Now, don't get me wrong, I definitely see the pros to doing it this way, especially given the idea this would be entry level. A single box set and some terrain, and off you go? Great! But...limiting the base list to only 1-2 specific core box sets limits access to the variety that is one of 40K's (few, in my opinion) strengths. It wouldn't hurt much to allow a few specialists from other box sets into the core list, as an option. Keep the strengths of being able to make a perfectly strong team from one box, allow the option to include other plastic boxes just for funsies.

* The (somewhat unexpected) "while stocks last" listing in the webstore preorder, plus the drastic under-supply that allows them to sell out within 15 minutes per region rings big ol' alarm bells to me that this box and the pdf is all they had planned for this game. Maaaaaaaybe one or two more lists in each White Dwarf for maaaaybe up to 3 issues, but then it'd be time for whatever new campaign pack or new edition or new limited release box game or new three-grots-driving-Space-Marine-power-armor subfaction release is in the pipeline. Which is a shame, because the best solution to the above point's problem would be to continuously churn out new lists for every conceivable plastic box set. "Here's a variant Chaos list that combines the new Thousand Sons box and the Tzaangors box into a Kill Team!" etc, etc.

* Following on the above point, I imagine that even if the (mysteriously) unexpected demand prompts extra support in the future, it'll probably be rushed and slap-dash. Extra lists will probably be only slightly play-tested, if at all, in the rush to pretend that this game wasn't intended to be dumped out and moved on from. No personnel will be assigned to it, but it'll just be left to whoever can think of a new thing to do with the game who will be allowed to knock the new thing together so they can put it online or in White Dwarf. New lists could have been planned out to be a new, anticipated feature article in White Dwarf akin to the 3e Adeptus Astartes article series, but no...they were just gonna toss this out to fill a hole in their release schedule, and any new development will be unplanned and thrown together.

So, while there was a real chance that this release could have brought me back in (like the new Warhammer Quests,) it was handled in such a way to be almost but not quite what I needed it to be to do so (like the new Warhammer Quests.) While I'll happily acknowledge that GW does seem to be getting better, compared to other wargaming companies I'm engaged with now, they've only caught up enough to finally reappear in my rear view mirror. Everything about this release, I approached with hope, but it just disappointed me - especially all the signs that say that I nearly blundered into another one-off that no one at GW will even remember having released in a year and a half. So, at this point, I realize I have three other, better options to do what I wanted to do with Shadow War as far as wargaming goes:

1) Dig out my 2e codeces and Necromunda rulebook, multiply the 40K points by 10 and use 'credits' as 'requisition points', and play 2e Necromunda 40K with my 20 year old rulebooks and templates.

2) Stat the relevant models up in Rogue Stars and play that ruleset instead.

3) Forget the 40K models, continue with the plans to flog them on eBay, and keep working on Deadzone, Warpath, and Frostgrave.

2 and 3 are definitely the strongest contenders.

So, basically, my expatriate perspective is this: GW hyped up a release that might have brought me back in as a paying customer. But they failed to follow through on that hype. Further, their continued insistence on avoiding market research led them to continue to show signs of not understanding what their customers are interested in. They continue to show signs of not following up on these box game releases to the standards I am used to with other wargame companies. I see signs of GW's talked-about improvement, but "better" isn't "good enough" yet. It'd be nice if it got there someday, but today is not yet that day. I'm a little disappointed, but I also have more money that I can spend with other companies to get more bang for my wargaming buck. Oh well, maybe next time.

Everyone's on here arguing about economic theory of limited print runs and I'm just sitting here curled up in the fetal position around my copies of 1st edition Necromunda gently rocking from side to side.

'Tell me again how you'll never leave me baby...'

Vorian wrote:

 BrookM wrote:

Vorian wrote:
I'm thinking about running Orks - the low BS looks like it'll be pretty brutal. Hitting on 7s when targeting heavy cover.

Ignoring the heavier weapons for a swarm of Yoof Shootas seems the best option at the moment, unless there is a cap I haven't seen somewhere

I think there's a cap of 10 - 13 models somewhere in the rules, with the option to field more models depending on the mission.

I think that's for missions with variable members turning up - say 2D6 turn up normal, the Orks would have 2d6 + 2, but selected from their normal roster.

I was thinking a Boss, 11 yoof shootas and some toys for the Boss to fill it out.

Could indeed be the case yeah, Genestealers have the same rule come to think of it.

One way to negate the low BS is to get in close and use red-dot laser sights, which give +1 to ranged rolls, but also a 6++ save because of the red dot.

 Psychopomp wrote:



* The (somewhat unexpected) "while stocks last" listing in the webstore preorder, plus the drastic under-supply that allows them to sell out within 15 minutes per region rings big ol' alarm bells to me that this box and the pdf is all they had planned for this game. Maaaaaaaybe one or two more lists in each White Dwarf for maaaaybe up to 3 issues, but then it'd be time for whatever new campaign pack or new edition or new limited release box game or new three-grots-driving-Space-Marine-power-armor subfaction release is in the pipeline. Which is a shame, because the best solution to the above point's problem would be to continuously churn out new lists for every conceivable plastic box set. "Here's a variant Chaos list that combines the new Thousand Sons box and the Tzaangors box into a Kill Team!" etc, etc.

* Following on the above point, I imagine that even if the (mysteriously) unexpected demand prompts extra support in the future, it'll probably be rushed and slap-dash. Extra lists will probably be only slightly play-tested, if at all, in the rush to pretend that this game wasn't intended to be dumped out and moved on from. No personnel will be assigned to it, but it'll just be left to whoever can think of a new thing to do with the game who will be allowed to knock the new thing together so they can put it online or in White Dwarf. New lists could have been planned out to be a new, anticipated feature article in White Dwarf akin to the 3e Adeptus Astartes article series, but no...they were just gonna toss this out to fill a hole in their release schedule, and any new development will be unplanned and thrown together.

An interesting point. GW have never handled looking after games very well, after the general release of items. I had fully expected there to have been way more stuff brought out for silvertower before hammefell was released. I was sure there would be at least one small add one set- like a book or small boxset, as well as white dwarf being jammed packed with new rules. Instead we got rules for a couple of new heroes, to help sell a handful of hero minis and then they put out a game that pretty much replaced it.

Though I've been quite- well cross is too strong a word, but its more than being annoyed, I was after all really looking forward to this game, I think this is pretty much why I'm not so bothered now. At the end of the day, it looks like it was never meant to have been a full release, and even if it was, I doubt we would have seen an expansion for it, other than maybe a couple of new kill teams in white dwarf, to cover what ever minis come out over the next 3 months.

I'd love to have had a game I actually wanted to start playing again, one that I could use my Inq warbands in quite happily, but looks like it wont be this game. I'll probably pick up a couple of the terrain sets on sale some where as cheap as I can, but might just stick to finishing off my 6mm/epic scale Inquisitor set I was working on last year. Cheaper, and it will continue to be fully supported in the future (as I support it myself! )


Its end of play monday, and still no word from GW, unless I have missed it, I would have thought they would have at least popped up a 'we chatted about over the watercooler, laughed at the pile of money you gave us, we will get back to you *Sometime* when we know if we are going to bother reprinting the game". But no, nothing. And yes, a time frame for them to solve this has to be more than 24 hours, but a friendly message would have been enough today, especially as they have been posting rumor engine and painting guides.

What a huge blunder. I like that GW has changed their approach to the creative side of the company, and the marketing side, but they can't seem to get the business part right.

Making this a while stocks last product is stupid. Only making enough stock to last a few minutes is even stupider.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The worst part is that making it "while stocks last" makes it absolutely clear that this won't be any sort of gateway into 40K or way to start small. Because it isn't going to be around very long. Like Silver Tower or Deathwatch: Overkill, they have no intention or desire for people to still be playing this game a year from now.

 BrookM wrote:

Vorian wrote:

 BrookM wrote:

Vorian wrote:
I'm thinking about running Orks - the low BS looks like it'll be pretty brutal. Hitting on 7s when targeting heavy cover.

Ignoring the heavier weapons for a swarm of Yoof Shootas seems the best option at the moment, unless there is a cap I haven't seen somewhere

I think there's a cap of 10 - 13 models somewhere in the rules, with the option to field more models depending on the mission.

I think that's for missions with variable members turning up - say 2D6 turn up normal, the Orks would have 2d6 + 2, but selected from their normal roster.

I was thinking a Boss, 11 yoof shootas and some toys for the Boss to fill it out.

Could indeed be the case yeah, Genestealers have the same rule come to think of it.

One way to negate the low BS is to get in close and use red-dot laser sights, which give +1 to ranged rolls, but also a 6++ save because of the red dot.

Yeah, but that is a lot of credits for not actually much more hitting power.

I think the actual way to go is run straight at them and swamp them in loads of shots from within 12 inches (for the +1) and charge them if they get too close.