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They were discussing crane's over at yaktribe. Here's a cool one that folks might find usefull for their Shadow War layouts. Not quite as impressive as some of the huge toy cranes out there, but it's cheap, is nicely sized down but has some good standing areas for figures that aren't too far from the ground. I like the design of the base also. If I didn't already have 2 Cranky Crans from Thomas and Friends awaiting conversion I might have had to buy this one.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Remote-Control-Electric-Tower-Crane-Model-Festival-Gifts-Kids-Birthday-Gifts-/201857875309?hash=item2effaabd6d:g:c9MAAOSwExJXomXb

 judgedoug wrote:
Had a ton of fun assembling my set of Shadow War Armageddon.

Pros: Fun to assemble. Cool catwalks and neat industrial pipes and crap.

Cons: Stupidly expensive. Like, seriously. The terrain in the set is enough for maybe 18 inches square, and only at 6" up. There should honestly be 3" high struts as well so make multi-level catwalks (and ramps).

So, I'm definitely going go to be buying at least one of each of the three terrain kits and probably two of the Galvanic Magnavent. With all that I should be able to densely pack perhaps two square feet.

Thankfully I have a ton of Deadzone terrain, to make 3" stuff and, like, you know, structures. The GW terrain is great for Catwalk & Pipe City but the moment you need, like, a wall, or a door, or a building, all you've got is GW's ugly gothic ruins.

Those look nice, but I'm wondering how sturdy those ladders are going to be. Especially if they are having to essentially serve as supports for the catwalks.

Further, 6" is pretty tall for a standard catwalk height. It looks very impressive, but the aproximately 3-inch standard used by Necromunda, Mantic Battlezone and Dust Tactics buildings is much better suited for building a multi-level hive. I've got alot of terrain that I've built for Necromunda (see the pics/link above) and other urban gaming and I can fit 3 and 4 story layouts in a rather compact space. A 3 inch standard also makes it much more likely that ceilings will provide cover from fire coming from upper levels.

On the other hand, being about double height should make it fairly easy to do intermediate heights (or just half height supports) with pieces from other systems.

 Eilif wrote:
Those look nice, but I'm wondering how sturdy those ladders are going to be. Especially if they are having to essentially serve as supports for the catwalks.

Further, 6" is pretty tall for a standard catwalk height. It looks very impressive, but the aproximately 3-inch standard used by Necromunda, Mantic Battlezone and Dust Tactics buildings is much better suited for building a multi-level hive. I've got alot of terrain that I've built for Necromunda (see the pics/link above) and other urban gaming and I can fit 3 and 4 story layouts in a rather compact space. A 3 inch standard also makes it much more likely that ceilings will provide cover from fire coming from upper levels.

By the same token, being about double height should make it fairly easy to do intermediate heights from other systems.

The ladders are super sturdy. They were only secondary supports, as I ddin't even realize the ladders went down the full distance until after I had decided on the layout modularity. (Just use the included clips to clip this junk together however you like, and it holds up pretty well).

Honestly I'm just pretty happy right now. The GW stuff is really really good. The detail level is high, they're tall, tons of fun to build. But I'm also super happy that Deadzone stuff exists, because otherwise, just using GW kits, it would be feel incomplete on the table. Unless you also had really fugly gothic ruined buildings in your underhive.

As it stands, the Shadow War terrain is very much an industrial prometheum refinery style. Catwalks and pipes and tanks. That's it. So even mixing with the Deadzone terrain should be just fine, because those pieces would be different anyways. This is where Deadzone's modularity benefits it immensely anyways, as the 3" square tiles _look_ like they're crafted from an Imperial STC for dropping into some factory or whatnot.

 Dravis wrote:
A good source of scatter terrain is the Tamiya jerry can set - comes with 12 barrels and a bunch of extra baggage (basically double the amount on the box) for a pretty cheap price.

Nice call!
Looks very good, the 1:48 scale kit.

https://www.tamiyausa.com/items/plastic-model-series-20/1-48-scale-military-miniatures-10500/jerry-can-set-32510
Only $12 USD.
As opposed to GW:

At $23.75 Canadian.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eilif wrote:
Those look nice, but I'm wondering how sturdy those ladders are going to be. Especially if they are having to essentially serve as supports for the catwalks.

I will be putting a small "brick" of plasticard behind each ladder at the base: the two little rails will not hold terribly well if it gets pushed on.

Further, 6" is pretty tall for a standard catwalk height. It looks very impressive,

The actual supporting posts are 4 3/4" and including the actual catwalk it is an even 5" in height.

but the aproximately 3-inch standard used by Necromunda, Mantic Battlezone and Dust Tactics buildings is much better suited for building a multi-level hive. I've got alot of terrain that I've built for Necromunda (see the pics/link above) and other urban gaming and I can fit 3 and 4 story layouts in a rather compact space. A 3 inch standard also makes it much more likely that ceilings will provide cover from fire coming from upper levels.

Agreed, it also leaves little room for those various low hanging hoses they supply a bunch of for the new kit.
I have a TON of the old Necromunda bulkheads and hope to figure out something to allow these to co-exist without looking strange.

On the other hand, being about double height should make it fairly easy to do intermediate heights (or just half height supports) with pieces from other systems.

I think it will not quite make it.
I figure 3" is an easy height where you can fit your hand in there without getting stuck to move your miniatures.
Maybe I can arrange some easy 2" step to line them up somehow.

Tamiya stuff in both 1/35, and 1/48 are great for fillers on your boxes, and crates. The O scale rail road stuff opens up a lot of doors, but in the scale creep, some of it can look a little mismatched with the 31-32mm stuff from GW. As always, you have to mix and match for a good eye, and in some cases, there comes some fudging the terrain, on account of doorways, and windows. ( The O scale buildings are great in other games, but can as well work for these sorts of skirmish games.)

Brick walls, 55 gal Barrels, sandbags are around 8-10 bucks, give or take. They also have bitzpacks for WW2, and modern, ( as of the 80's) for US, Russian, Japanese, German.

I haven't seen an MRAP for them, but I can be sure that it is out there, knowing Tamiya. Big plug to them for the bits, and pouches, extra crates, and odds and ends for gaming and figures.

Good to know about the actual height being 5". That is an odd size, but I'm sure allowances can be made.

 Talizvar wrote:

 Dravis wrote:
A good source of scatter terrain is the Tamiya jerry can set - comes with 12 barrels and a bunch of extra baggage (basically double the amount on the box) for a pretty cheap price.

Nice call!
Looks very good, the 1:48 scale kit.

https://www.tamiyausa.com/items/plastic-model-series-20/1-48-scale-military-miniatures-10500/jerry-can-set-32510
Only $12 USD.
As opposed to GW:

At $23.75 Canadian.

I would like to see those together, assembled so I can decide if it would be useful.

Click the link, then? ;-)

The only reason thinking of getting the gw pipes is because they match up to the new terrain. Anyone know how well 3rd party pipes match up? Like the mantic or the chemical factory for example.

 Lockark wrote:
The only reason thinking of getting the gw pipes is because they match up to the new terrain. Anyone know how well 3rd party pipes match up? Like the mantic or the chemical factory for example.

I use PVP pipe from the local hardware store. You can break them down to 6 or 12 inch sections and base them accordingly. Use a couple of elbow, and O scale Railroad trestles from bridge section, or the sweet stuff from Woodland Scenics to prop up the sections. I'm looking hard at some of that additional pumping station, as well as some old Necromunda sectional walls and a wire box for something, too.

Here are a couple of sites, in regards to the terrain stuff. I use this stuff more then most people.

http://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/ HOBBY LOBBY, or your local model railroad/ modeling shop has this stuff. Here is where you go for I beams, rivets, suspension sections, bridge support structures, flocking, base materials, etc...

http://www.ironhands.com/tehnolog.htm Tehnolog Sets available in your local game stores, or model shops.

https://www.tamiyausa.com/items/plastic-model-series-20/1-35-scale-military-miniature-12000/1-35-u-s-modern-elite-89772 Modern U.S. Soldiers set.

https://www.tamiyausa.com/items/plastic-model-series-20/1-48-scale-military-miniatures-10500/jerry-can-set-32510 The barrel and jerry can kit pictured from above, colored and fitted.

http://www.revell.com/model-kits/military/index.html Revell models are a close cheaper second to the Tamiya stuff. you can cut them up all day long, and use the kits bits for added scenery.

 Lockark wrote:
The only reason thinking of getting the gw pipes is because they match up to the new terrain. Anyone know how well 3rd party pipes match up? Like the mantic or the chemical factory for example.

I'd be interested in this as well.

I have the Hirst Arts pipe molds, and unfortunately the large pipe is a slightly smaller diameter- about 1/8" smaller.

THIS guy here has a great discussion on a Industrial boards complete with piping.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifHfyEmoCAA

I use this method, but put them on base boards.

After playing SWA, I have to say I enjoyed it. There weren't any hilarious Scavvy type moments where you cascade a plague zombie bite through the opposing gang during recovery, but the system seemed fairly robust (and it better be considering the significant lack of changes from Necromunda proper).

Combat was as expected, so was shooting. Some of the more elite squads (Harlequins, Grey Knights) helped with the usual issue of having to bring a dozen individual models for WYSIWYG purposes. You still get hilarious results like a Chaos Marine getting pinged before he can take a shot, falling two stories, taken out of action, then apparently being Destined for Greatness.

But for the bad parts:

- The injury table is very lacklustre. For pickup games seems fine if you're trying to treat these games as short snacky-type sessions, but lacklustre for narrative and continued play purposes. Having the same old 6 results felt stale after a half dozen games.
- The skill table has multiple failures. Grey Knights getting the ability to dual-wield pistols is all fine...if they could get pistols in the first place. A streamlined skill table is all well and good, but only if the armoury/equipment is streamlined as well, much like the original necromunda, where there may only be a few corner cases of being able to get redundant skills. A Harlequin (even a recruit) getting Combat Master is useless, as there is no case wherein it could ever be utilized.
- For some reason Wriathguard/blades can be pinned. Would be fine if they had more than 1 wound, but I can't really think of a story-driven way that this really works.

I was playing Harlequins and after a half dozen games ended up with:

Troupe Leader: Power Sword, Harlequin's Kiss, Neuro Disruptor, Photo-Visor (+1M, +1 S, +1A)
Player: Harlequin Blade (Sword), Shuriken Pistol, Photo-Visor
Player: Harlequin Blade (Sword), Shuriken Pistol, Photo-Visor
Player: Harlequin Blade (Sword), Shuriken Pistol, Photo-Visor
Virtuoso: Monomolecular Blade, Shuriken Pistol, Photo-Visor (Run & Hide, Combat Master)
Virtuoso: Monomolecular Blade, Shuriken Pistol, Photo-Visor

The squad started with a less-than-amazing four members, but a base harelquin will still destroy any ganger in close combat. The main trick is to utilize the Run (w/ Prismatic Blur) + Cover to make sure you make it within range, but impossible to hit. Base Movement 6" is ridiculous, and Ld10 on the leader means that hopefully in the early campaign you don't end up bottling after the first down.

Why you would take a recruit over a player I cannot say. The 25pt premium which allows you to give them advantages off the bat far outweighs any long term savings unless you are severely hurting for points.

The main advantage of Harlequins is that their awesome base WS5 and 2A means that when you add in their cheap-as-chips parry weapons that they can get off the bat (and why wouldn't you) they become combat monsters. The issue is that because of their absolutely horrendous range (only have pistol weapons) you probably won't have a lot of opportunities to use their stellar BS when you could simply take an opponent out of action (if you're in range to fire a pistol, you're also in charge range most of the time) and avoid getting shot to shreds by the rest of the opposing gang while you're locked in melee.

Raid and Hit & Run are the two missions where this squad shines. When there are reduced enemy numbers, or you can utilize reserves to take the opponent by surprise (and even then, the 12" run w/ Prismatic Blue means you can easily reposition) you can pretty much walk through the competition, with the exception of if they have managed to generate a firing corridor with sustained fire weapons (but hopefully the overwatch + charge penalty will reduce the effectiveness of the volley). The inability to be pinned except from S7+ is also very effective for running the gauntlet.

To put all this into perspective: I never once fired a single ranged weapon (not for want of trying), because it was either a case of being out of range, out of sight or within charge range.

 Ehsteve wrote:
Why you would take a recruit over a player I cannot say. The 25pt premium which allows you to give them advantages off the bat far outweighs any long term savings unless you are severely hurting for points.

Same as in Mordheim - you are out of Character slots and just need bulk.

But you never run out of character 'slots' in SWA. It's actually the reverse. You need to take Troopers (regular Harlis) because you cannot have more trainees than regular guys (including your leader). It's like with the Tau list, there's no reason outside of cost to bring the lower level guys. I'd argue that is the same for most of the Kill Teams.

It's the inherent problem with the game's progression system (or lack of one). Recruits become Troopers after 3 games, not because of anything they do. All non-Recruits get advances because you chose to give them one at the end of the game, or rolled it randomly on the injury table, not because of anything they've done.

The point about GKs and pistols is actually more far reaching than that. As we're limited to the plastic kits ("Buy all our playsets and toys!") rather than a more open game, it means that you run out of stuff to buy.

Within 4 games both my Snipers had everything they could get outside of buying pistols/additional rifles/grenades. And Guard have a relative wealth of options. A lot of the other Kill Teams get virtually nothing, or upgrades that aren't worth taking (why bother with Photo-Visors in a Tau unit when you have unlimited range auto-hit Markerlights? Well, because it's time to rearm, that's why, and you've got nothing else to buy so you might as well!).

And don't get me started on Raveners with 1 wound... yikes...

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Chikout wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
$40 USD for the rulebook? Seems a bit much. Does it also do the dishes?

With the rules for the additional factions, the book will about 200 pages. $40 is the same price as a softback codex so it does not seem unreasonable. Ghb price would have been great, but the rush to release and printing in America is probably a factor.

GHB is $25 for 168 pages, softback, so yeah. If SWA were similar, I'd spend the $25.

well it's 200+ pages hardback and costs $30 on most online retailers with 25% off.

 Breotan wrote:

I would like to see those together, assembled so I can decide if it would be useful.

I don't have the GW set so I can't help you there, but the barrels in the Tamiya set are 18mm high - about boltgun height on a spacemarine.

 Lockark wrote:
The only reason thinking of getting the gw pipes is because they match up to the new terrain. Anyone know how well 3rd party pipes match up? Like the mantic or the chemical factory for example.

I will hopefully get a SWA box this week, then I can let you know. I own both of those.

GWs pipes have a smaller diameter (20mm) than Mantics (22mm) but the coupling points on both are the same diameter so it's very easy to transition from one type to another.

Are GW's pipes vacuformed or are they on a sprue?

They are on a sprue.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Are GW's pipes vacuformed or are they on a sprue?

Sprue.

Here is a crappy image of my rusty ass pipes I finished last night:

When the big terrain box comes in Nov I'll get some. Not before.

Pretty much finished my set last night - the set was a TON of fun not only to assemble, but also to paint.

Steps I did:
1. prime cheapo black
2. overspray some cheapo silver color
3. heavy overspray of cheapo yellow/tan/not-dunkelgelb
4. drybrush black
5. slap on some orange for rust
6. random drops of dark tone and strong tone, splotch around with brush
7. edge drybrush a medium gunmetal/silver
8. blue tone applied to lots of cables, random dials, details, etc
9. finally, splotched on some typhus corrosion

think I'm done other than a coat of satin spray. I _might_ do the metal/chains, but the underhanging stuff is barely visible.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Are GW's pipes vacuformed or are they on a sprue?

GW hasn't made vacuformed terrain after Blastscape fiasco in 2009. If you mean lower quality plastics such as Wall of Martyrs items, AoS scenery, Citadel Woods, Plasma Obliterator or Deathworld Forest - all of them are cast in sprues as normal, but for some kits the parts are pre-cut and bagged because the sprues are too big. Any lack of detail for them is either because the parts are too big for plastic to fill the mold properly or that the mold is made from cheaper metal (the latter being more likely).

Shadow War terrain, Promethium Relay Pipes, Munitorum Armouder Containers, Haemothrope Reactors and plastic Void Shield Generator are all high quality items, losing only marginally to Skyshield Landing Pad which is the sharpest GW scenery kit available. I got my third Armageddon box yesterday and I'm looking forward to purchase more Promethium pipes and Containers as well. Also, last weeks WHTV inside studio confirmed that the Crane is not a conversion but an unreleased kit instead. There is also something that should be compatible with Munitorum Containers, but whether that referred to crane or something else was left uncertain.

jullevi wrote:
Also, last weeks WHTV inside studio confirmed that the Crane is not a conversion but an unreleased kit instead. There is also something that should be compatible with Munitorum Containers, but whether that referred to crane or something else was left uncertain.

Well if they are releasing a crane kit, I'm going to wait to attach the weird spider skull hoist to that.

 Breotan wrote:

I would like to see those together, assembled so I can decide if it would be useful.

I have both, they are almost the same scale.. give me a few, I'll dig them out and take a side by side.


edit - added pic

How did your Grey Knight end up with Gunfighter? You roll twice on the skill chart and choose the one you want, so the only way you should end up with Gunfighter is if you already have all the other Shooting skills.

As for advances, I choose to give my Advance to the most worthy model each game. as opposed to that Juve who spent all game Pinned then rolled a 6 for XP, while the Heavy who gunned down three gangers rolls a 1 and gets nothing.

The injury chart's somewhat boring, I agree.

 Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

I would like to see those together, assembled so I can decide if it would be useful.

I have both, they are almost the same scale.. give me a few, I'll dig them out and take a side by side.


edit - added pic

They are a lot closer in scale then I thought.

As to the serious injury table, I have to say I don't really like either the Shadow War one or the original Necromunda one. The Shadow War one is a little short and you have a 1 in 6 chance of Frenzy, not sure on the chances of a large number of your kill team gaining this by the end of the campaign, but it seams really high. The Necromunda one just listed a whole series of stat reductions or half stat reductions, not very flavorful.
A thought I had as a quick fix to the Shadow War table, was replacing the Head Wound result with another D6 roll and having a series of psychological issues, one of them still being Frenzy.

 Dravis wrote:

A thought I had as a quick fix to the Shadow War table, was replacing the Head Wound result with another D6 roll and having a series of psychological issues, one of them still being Frenzy.

I like that idea. Frenzy, Stupidity, Reduced Ld etc.

Is the stand alone rulebook going to be available at retail?