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Yes, but for that we'd need self-aware humor, you realize. Of that, only Sandy Mitchell seems to be capable.

It's less what authors can do and more what BL is buying. Not that I have a problem with bolter pr0n.

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:
Can we seriously not just agree to disagree, at this point? This discussion is going nowhere, and I doubt it's going to end well for any of us, or for this thread for that matter.

Personally, I'm going to stay in the 'Female Astartes aren't possible'-camp, for the reasons I've posted before; the rest of you, figure it out for your bloody selves.

If anyone still wants to discuss modelling ideas for female space marines or one of the other ideas, I'm all ears.

Apparently not.. cause agreeing to disagree does not result in the immediate death of all fem marine figs... I find people are too passionate and angry over this very concept to ever agree to disagree.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter. Retailers don't force you to divulge your intended use of the products and only sell to people working on "Chapter Approved" projects. If you have the money and the time, you can make whatever army you like. But you already know that. So is it just a question of requiring some kind of approval from others? Or teasing them for withholding it? Seems pointless in either case.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
I always had the impression that there was some untold Big Brother/Little Sister thing between the Astartes and the SoB where each is different, but bother can hold their own and admire each other.

Back on subject, from what I've read, the humans among Tau were almost all rank and file dudes, but I'd say I'm limited in that aspect of the fluff having only read 2-3 stories where human auxiliaries exist.

As far as i can tell there is no connection betwene them... one is a wing of the church and the other is a semi independent army that supports and protects the imperium.


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 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Agreed, though by being put in charge of Tau forces, that implies he has achieved at least as much respect as a warrior and leader as a Shas'o or Shas'el. While that isn't the absolute pinnacle, it is close enough to be a helluva significant achievement, and it is undeniably an achievement that goes beyond what a vast majority of Fire Caste members will ever achieve.

I don't see why a Your Dude human couldn't achieve something similar in the right circumstances. One would need to be careful to avoid Mary Sue-ism, but that's just about always the case when dealing with Your Dude situations, so that line of thought seems mostly a non sequitur.

Well i would take a great deal of inspiration from William Adams, the sailor who found himself stranded in japan after a tsunami. Basically this man. A british man took to japanese culture with such ferver and dedication. He quickly earned the ear of tokogawa himself, embracing the culture so thoroughly that he was made a Daimyo and given a fief, samurai and a beautiful bride. Others who met him who used to know him before described him as cold like he had cut away her heritage and embraced this new world like it was his true identity. even going as far as to hold contempt for his past.

If I were to tell a story of this woman it would not be one of unbridled success and possitivity. It would tell of a person who never knew freedom, did everything they were told and they never had a purpose and than once introduce to the Tau, something they took too with passion, discarding the imperium perhaps even with open contempt. Somebody who simply never felt alive or at home until introduced to this new world and found a purpose within the greater good.
Its a story of passion and finding themselves but also sacrificing everything they knew and was familiar to them. I believe its only somebody like this who would be capable of earning the trust of the Tau a great thinker and tactician and leader who never knew inspiration until the greater good. She isnt better than all the other Tau no of coursenot but to the Tau what better way to earn the trust of potential converts than showing them a human success story and giving them a leader, a human perspective may be very useful to a truely alien force and most of all it keeps the rabble on conqoured planets sated when they have a hero or icon to look to. A human they trust to tell them to "Fall in line and behave" propaganda by simply existing.

I dont think that sounds too bad ^ _ ^

Manchu wrote:
Oh come on guys 40k wasn't always so SRS BSNS like it has been since 4E. The names (and concepts!) are all pretty suitable for a toy soldiers game with low-key, swelf-aware humor.


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 Unusual Suspect wrote:
so long as you're careful about the Mary Sue aspects

I'm not sure it could be avoided. OTOH, I could imagine pretty entertaining story about a human who deserts the Guard to escape execution by Commissar or something and the Tau promote him to some kind of cushy position for propaganda purposes - the joke would be that the guy thinks he is actually being promoted for merit and all the Tau guys around him have to constantly keep a straight face about the whole thing. Could be a British sitcom.

Hah that would be entertainging.

A more grimdark idea would be for this particular human to be elevated to commander as sort of a social experiment by the Tau government. Constantly watched by people who he suspects are Tau Secret Police, can't work out if it's all some propaganda stunt to prove that humans are less capable of leading than Tau so they're playing in a rigged system. Go proper Soviet on it

Also, I never quite got the idea that GW writers are unimaginative. They've come up with a world so utterly chock-full of neat ideas that we're still debating it decades later. I certainly couldn't do that (although I've made a start).

All of the little naming conventions and bits they pull from other IPs are neat little pop-culture references. Like little in-jokes for people who recognise where it's from which I love hell, even the most hated piece of Grey Knight fluff (that weird thing with murdering the Sisters and painting them in blood) is a pop-culture reference to a crappy cult horror movie.

It's when you take the bigger picture and see just how many references from pop culture, geeky culture both old and new, and real-world historical and mythical events have been woven into the fabric of this universe that you get a sense of just how imaginative it really is

Of course, this completely falls apart the second I read the Space Wolves codex and find it to be ~80% 'Wolf'. You can't win them all I suppose

 DizzyStorey wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
I always had the impression that there was some untold Big Brother/Little Sister thing between the Astartes and the SoB where each is different, but bother can hold their own and admire each other.

Back on subject, from what I've read, the humans among Tau were almost all rank and file dudes, but I'd say I'm limited in that aspect of the fluff having only read 2-3 stories where human auxiliaries exist.

As far as i can tell there is no connection betwene them... one is a wing of the church and the other is a semi independent army that supports and protects the imperium.

The SoB does just as much for the Imperium as the Astartes and the SoB have more political power than the Astartes.

@ the OP, I haven't read all of this discussion so apologies if said before.

Dismissing your 'Amazon Spacemarines' is not all that ingenious. If you read the Fabius Bile book Primogenitor Bile has created augmented humans from Astartes geneseed, the leader of this bunch happens to be female.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
@ the OP, I haven't read all of this discussion so apologies if said before.

Dismissing your 'Amazon Spacemarines' is not all that ingenious. If you read the Fabius Bile book Primogenitor Bile has created augmented humans from Astartes geneseed, the leader of this bunch happens to be female.

This is a very good point. It is important to note though that Igori and the rest are not actual Astartes, but rather "Gland-Hounds".

Here's what I could get of the extract:

"Gland-hounds. The New Humanity, as designed by Fabius Bile. Stronger, faster, more aggressive than the brief sparks that sheltered in the shadow of the Imperium. The first generation had been born of partial gene-seed implantation. Those first few crude attempts had become more refined over time, as the master had devised his own, lesser form of gene-seed. One which was not so likely to kill its host out of hand.
They came alert instantly. There was a disconcerting intensity to their blank gazes - as if he were some large bovid who had wandered unknowing into the midst of a carnosaur pack. It had been a long time since anything had looked at him that way, and he shivered in delight. 'They say, in the lands of milk and sorrow, that those pale echoes of our brothers now gone know no fear,' he said to Arrian. 'It saddens me to think of it .'
As he spoke, one of hounds stepped forward, setting herself between them and the doorway beyond. She crossed her muscular arms, and gazed steadily at them. 'Igori,' Arrian said. There was an odd sort of respect in his tone, Oleander thought. He bridled at it. Arrian was free to consider the creature his equal, but Oleander was under no such obligation.
'You're new,' Oleander said , looking down at the woman - Igori, Arrian had called her. He sniffed, and grimaced. 'But I can tell you're one of his. I can smell it from here. '
Igori said nothing. Her face was square. It might as well have been chiselled out of marble. Everything about her was perfect. Too perfect, too symmetrical. As if she were nothing more than a machine of meat and muscle. "

As we see, certainly female. Certainly very powerful, easily a match for a Space Marines in strength and toughness. But it is important to note that even these Gland-Hounds are only borne of "partial gene-seed implantation", or Fabius' own "lesser form of gene-seed".

This lends credence to genetically augmented females being possible, as I have maintained alongside Ezra. As for them being actual Astartes? Not so.

@Ynneadwraith - I fully accept and return the apology. I understand that I argued for far longer than I probably should have, and that we are both free to interpret fluff as mutably as we each choose to. It is, as you said, one of 40k's very good factors. For me, I do support people's own creation of fluff, but for me, it rubs me up the wrong when when it counters what I see as outright statements, ie blue being blue, up being up, etc etc. Again, my apologies for dragging this out. I've taken a step back to avoid instigating much else.

For me, I have no intention of hounding anyone out. If OP was dead set on having female marines, and didn't actually care for established lore, I have nothing to say but go for it. It's only when this question is brought into lore forums, and directed as a "I like the lore but..." statement that rises a reaction. For me, I would expect to see actual lore discussed in this particular forum, and only for actual canon lore, with that being the only arbiter. As current lore stands, assuming it's immutable, female Space Marines are not possible. But if OP doesn't want to listen to lore, or they do believe in the mutability of that line, who am I to stop them, as a random person on the internet?
My only real issue was that in a lore discussion, the lore itself was being ignored and seen as inappropriate in a lore discussion.

In response to your query of "Why is it that you feel so strongly about not having female Space Marines?", and "hasn't provided an explanation for why he deems that particular piece of fluff to be so important", it's just simple - I see that the lore is, without exceptional reason, immutable. I value the lore, and if it is immutable, like the statement of females not being able to be Space Marines, I'll default to the lore taking priority. Especially in a lore discussion.
I feel strongly about it because I feel the lore to around the issue be immutable and of high priority in a lore discussion.

I hope that clears up the question.

The established lore has plenty of opportunities for female Space Marines, really. I'm aware that this statement is going to piss people off (since it already has in this thread), but honestly, people are just so hung up on what basically amounts to a single throw-away line saying "NO GIRLS ALLOWED!" so GW didn't have to put more effort in to their own minis, that they make a mountain out of a molehill here. That GW has not explored the possibilities is really just evidence of GW's own laziness.

I'm annoyed that I feel obligated to defend FSM, really. But honestly, it's not even the most ridiculous idea that people have posted in this forum today, never mind this week, never mind this month, never mind this year or this decade even. But it's the one that gets the most attention, and it's very telling that it does.

Honestly, this is why this conversation will never have a satisfying end.

 Melissia wrote:
The established lore has plenty of opportunities for female Space Marines, really. I'm aware that this statement is going to piss people off (since it already has in this thread), but honestly, people are just so hung up on what basically amounts to a single throw-away line saying "NO GIRLS ALLOWED!" so GW didn't have to put more effort in to their own minis, that they make a mountain out of a molehill here. That GW has not explored the possibilities is really just evidence of GW's own laziness.

Oh, indeed.

Realistically, if such a thing were to be possible, there wouldn't even be a discernable difference in male or female post-augmentation. It requires no modelling differences at all - purely fluff.

Of course, even though I would support it if it were canon, it is not.*




*yet

Too me that Fabious has created a Partial Geneseed Female, makes it even more likely that there could be Female Astarte...

And everyone here has said these wouldn't be official Imperial Astartes, but and unsanctioned force created by a renegade magos. This doesn't make them any less loyal to the Imperium of course, but it does mean that they may be considered Heretical by them.

GodDamUser wrote:
Too me that Fabious has created a Partial Geneseed Female, makes it even more likely that there could be Female Astarte...

And everyone here has said these wouldn't be official Imperial Astartes, but and unsanctioned force created by a renegade magos. This doesn't make them any less loyal to the Imperium of course, but it does mean that they may be considered Heretical by them.

See, I read it more as only a partial gene-seed can be manipulated sufficiently, instead of a full one.

The problem stems from trying to play off the lack of femarines as a CAN'T issue ("science") rather than a WON'T issue (culture). Here again, the contrast to the Sisters of Battle is useful - the prohibition on males in that case has nothing to do with biological maleness. Let's keep in mind that the Decree Passive neither created the SoB nor imposed a novel gender restriction. The institution not only already existed but was already exclusively female. In other words, the SoB exclude men because that's just the way they have always done things. (And the famous clause of the Decree Passive was certainly not a mistake but an intentional carve-out to specifically preserve the SoB.) But someone decided to "rationalize" the exclusively male SM ranks by appeal to fictional technosorcery, which in turn exists solely for the sake of that rationalization. It's a fluff tautology - there is no reason to accept it apart from the fact that it exists. And its existence is entirely and always provisional. So of course it's weak and unconvincing.

Wait does that mean you can have gland-hound space marines? How would that work? Would they be allowed to fight for the empire? ( Seems pretty simple actually... just dont put the parts of the gene-seed in that kills them XD Yeah a bit less powerful but it works )

So there is president for something of the sort?

I imagine a female space marine would look like Zarya or Hammer! Big with giant arms! but overall you can still tell what gender they are, the skeletal structure doesn't change ( as far as I know )
And even if it did.. rule of cool, lets face it, even if GW did clear the slate and introduce fem marines theres no way they would make them look manly, if so it would be the first time in any media ever. If they made an offical fem marine it would be hot as hell cause thats just how these things go ( Id actually prefure a juggernaut of a woman with arms like boulders! but alas this is not the world we live in, we are not in a time ware females get the veriaty of character designs available to men, chicks are either, hot, super hot or hot as hell. )
After-all didnt one of the Primearchs jokingly request a female primearch so the boys wouldnt squabble as much? Whats the point if she looked like a gorilla XD

 DizzyStorey wrote:
Wait does that mean you can have gland-hound space marines? How would that work? Would they be allowed to fight for the empire? ( Seems pretty simple actually... just dont put the parts of the gene-seed in that kills them XD Yeah a bit less powerful but it works )

So there is president for something of the sort?

These duders are made by a bad man, who experiments on people for fun and is over 10,000 years old

GodDamUser wrote:

 DizzyStorey wrote:
Wait does that mean you can have gland-hound space marines? How would that work? Would they be allowed to fight for the empire? ( Seems pretty simple actually... just dont put the parts of the gene-seed in that kills them XD Yeah a bit less powerful but it works )

So there is president for something of the sort?

These duders are made by a bad man, who experiments on people for fun and is over 10,000 years old

Yeah but a partial gene-seeding sounds pretty simple for anyone who knows what they are doing ( Or are really good ) with using the gene-seed. Its a pretty good explainaway if somebody is asking too many questions. "Heretical copy of space marines, they used a partial gene-seed took out all the bits that make a chick croak and left in the bits that make em strong"

If somebody asks why woman? its easy "crashed on a backwater planet, locals were mostly woman so they used what they had, found an old STC and used its knowlage to get off the planet and help with the gene-seed tinkering" Nothing too complicated or over the top, Just a simple straight up explanation.


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Iv just been informed that Space marines can not only spit acid but also absorb memories through eating brains... why? Why did the emperor build them this way? Surely there was a better way to absorb memories than ripping the skull of a foe open and consuming the brain! Are they allowed to cook it first?!

 DizzyStorey wrote:
Iv just been informed that Space marines can not only spit acid but also absorb memories through eating brains... why? Why did the emperor build them this way? Surely there was a better way to absorb memories than ripping the skull of a foe open and consuming the brain! Are they allowed to cook it first?!

But that is where the mems are stored.. and no cooking it would damage the synapse, that they are chewing on =D

Because reasons.

Seriously GW basically just gave them a bunch of abilities that they thought would sound cool.

 Melissia wrote:
Because reasons.

Seriously GW basically just gave them a bunch of abilities that they thought would sound cool.

Why again are people so protective of this lore?

 DizzyStorey wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Because reasons.

Seriously GW basically just gave them a bunch of abilities that they thought would sound cool.

Why again are people so protective of this lore?

Because it's the lore and we don't want it changed? Did you miss everything that Manchu posted over the last two pages?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
@ the OP, I haven't read all of this discussion so apologies if said before.

Dismissing your 'Amazon Spacemarines' is not all that ingenious. If you read the Fabius Bile book Primogenitor Bile has created augmented humans from Astartes geneseed, the leader of this bunch happens to be female.

This is a very good point. It is important to note though that Igori and the rest are not actual Astartes, but rather "Gland-Hounds".

Here's what I could get of the extract:

"Gland-hounds. The New Humanity, as designed by Fabius Bile. Stronger, faster, more aggressive than the brief sparks that sheltered in the shadow of the Imperium. The first generation had been born of partial gene-seed implantation. Those first few crude attempts had become more refined over time, as the master had devised his own, lesser form of gene-seed. One which was not so likely to kill its host out of hand.
They came alert instantly. There was a disconcerting intensity to their blank gazes - as if he were some large bovid who had wandered unknowing into the midst of a carnosaur pack. It had been a long time since anything had looked at him that way, and he shivered in delight. 'They say, in the lands of milk and sorrow, that those pale echoes of our brothers now gone know no fear,' he said to Arrian. 'It saddens me to think of it .'
As he spoke, one of hounds stepped forward, setting herself between them and the doorway beyond. She crossed her muscular arms, and gazed steadily at them. 'Igori,' Arrian said. There was an odd sort of respect in his tone, Oleander thought. He bridled at it. Arrian was free to consider the creature his equal, but Oleander was under no such obligation.
'You're new,' Oleander said , looking down at the woman - Igori, Arrian had called her. He sniffed, and grimaced. 'But I can tell you're one of his. I can smell it from here. '
Igori said nothing. Her face was square. It might as well have been chiselled out of marble. Everything about her was perfect. Too perfect, too symmetrical. As if she were nothing more than a machine of meat and muscle. "

As we see, certainly female. Certainly very powerful, easily a match for a Space Marines in strength and toughness. But it is important to note that even these Gland-Hounds are only borne of "partial gene-seed implantation", or Fabius' own "lesser form of gene-seed".

This lends credence to genetically augmented females being possible, as I have maintained alongside Ezra. As for them being actual Astartes? Not so.

@Ynneadwraith - I fully accept and return the apology. I understand that I argued for far longer than I probably should have, and that we are both free to interpret fluff as mutably as we each choose to. It is, as you said, one of 40k's very good factors. For me, I do support people's own creation of fluff, but for me, it rubs me up the wrong when when it counters what I see as outright statements, ie blue being blue, up being up, etc etc. Again, my apologies for dragging this out. I've taken a step back to avoid instigating much else.

For me, I have no intention of hounding anyone out. If OP was dead set on having female marines, and didn't actually care for established lore, I have nothing to say but go for it. It's only when this question is brought into lore forums, and directed as a "I like the lore but..." statement that rises a reaction. For me, I would expect to see actual lore discussed in this particular forum, and only for actual canon lore, with that being the only arbiter. As current lore stands, assuming it's immutable, female Space Marines are not possible. But if OP doesn't want to listen to lore, or they do believe in the mutability of that line, who am I to stop them, as a random person on the internet?
My only real issue was that in a lore discussion, the lore itself was being ignored and seen as inappropriate in a lore discussion.

In response to your query of "Why is it that you feel so strongly about not having female Space Marines?", and "hasn't provided an explanation for why he deems that particular piece of fluff to be so important", it's just simple - I see that the lore is, without exceptional reason, immutable. I value the lore, and if it is immutable, like the statement of females not being able to be Space Marines, I'll default to the lore taking priority. Especially in a lore discussion.
I feel strongly about it because I feel the lore to around the issue be immutable and of high priority in a lore discussion.

I hope that clears up the question.

Likewise thankyou for the considered response

Perhaps it will help to frame the discussion using something else from the fluff that is comparable, and that other people can possibly use as a bridge to relate to the situation with female Space Marines and why I think it's unfair and unjustified.

There is a statement within the 'lore' (5th ed. SM Codex) that states that no matter what other Space Marines do, no matter how hard they try, they will never be Ultramarines (or words to that effect). So, what that suggests is that no matter what you do to your dudes, no matter how successful your chosen chapter is, they will never be as good as Ultramarines. They will never be 'the genuine article'. Which is, quite frankly, a pile of horse sh*t.

However, it is an absolute statement in the lore, unless you want to go down the road of different bits of lore being more or less immutable than others.

How do you (not just you, but others reading this comment too) feel that your chosen Space Marines are outright stated to 'not be as good as the Ultramarines'. It's annoying isn't it? It's insulting, if anything. It is justifiably ignored.

Now, take that feeling and put it into the context of someone being told that no matter what they do their female genetically modified warriors that are 100% identical to Astartes aside from being female, can never genuinely be Astartes. It's exactly the same logical process, yet this particular statement is held up so strongly when the previous one is happily ignored.

Can you see why that is unfair? Can you see why that doesn't make sense?

Now. I don't mind if you feel like both statements are gospel, because they are both written down as statements of fact in the lore. However, when you get fluff topics about cool things Dark Angels have done, you don't get 10 pages of people stating 'yeah they're cool, better even, but they will never be Ultramarines'. And then justifying that stance by saying 'but it says so in the lore'.

The combination of those two points is why I am certain that people treat female Space Marines strangely compared to any other piece of fluff (or lore, if you see it that way). It's not just that some people take each thing written down as sacrosanct (because that's just how some people like to interpret it which is fine), but it's that so many people will specifically go out of their way to state again and again the equivalent of 'all those reasons they are cool is nice...but they will never be Ultramarines'.

That's why I keep asking why people feel so strongly about this particular piece of lore. Because there are other pieces of lore that actually effect more people that people don't give a toss about, and I don't think it's fair or logical.


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 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 DizzyStorey wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Because reasons.

Seriously GW basically just gave them a bunch of abilities that they thought would sound cool.

Why again are people so protective of this lore?

Because it's the lore and we don't want it changed? Did you miss everything that Manchu posted over the last two pages?

The problem is is 'because it's the lore and we don't want it changed' doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

I understand that it's a particular piece of lore that people feel strongly about. However, there are other statements in the lore that are equally as dismissive towards what some people want to do (my example of 'but they can never be Ultramarines' is a good one), that are routinely ignored.

In the light of that, a better explanation than 'because it's the lore' is needed to justify such a public outrage at what should be a very simple and low-key bending of the fluff. 'Ultramarines are the best Space Marines' is also the lore. How do people feel about that particular statement?

Well the Ultramarines are the best chapter, we just all know that so no one argues it.

No Ciaphas Cain is the Emperor's Finest, hell it's the title of a book.

@Ynneadwraith

Watch out for conflating fact statements and value statements. The fluff is written from an in-universe POV for the sake of tongue-in-cheek/black humor. A statement like "UM wear blue armor," as a statement of fact, isn't meant to inspire the same kind of bemused skepticism as a value statement like "the Imperium of Man is eternal and invincible!" - obviously, if you took the latter as a literal fact, the basic dramatic premise of the setting would disappear. Quickjager gives a nice example - Ciaphas Cain is the Emp's finest, sorry Cato! "It's just a fact!"

And "we don't want people to change the setting we like" is a completely sufficient argument in this case. Again, the problem isn't actually the setting but rather the hamfisted attempt to justify the setting element in question by appeal to in-universe science rather than in-universe culture.

Manchu wrote:
@Ynneadwraith

Watch out for conflating fact statements and value statements. The fluff is written from an in-universe POV for the sake of tongue-in-cheek/black humor. A statement like "UM wear blue armor," as a statement of fact, isn't meant to inspire the same kind of bemused skepticism as a value statement like "the Imperium of Man is eternal and invincible!" - obviously, if you took the latter as a literal fact, the basic dramatic premise of the setting would disappear. Quickjager gives a nice example - Ciaphas Cain is the Emp's finest, sorry Cato! "It's just a fact!"

And "we don't want people to change the setting we like" is a completely sufficient argument in this case. Again, the problem isn't actually the setting but rather the hamfisted attempt to justify the setting element in question by appeal to in-universe science rather than in-universe culture.

Ah, I see, so the statement that all Marines wish they were Ultramarines is intended to be tongue-in-cheek, rather than an outright statement of fact. Thanks, so we're a step closer to understanding why this particular piece of fluff is held to be immutable where others are not.

"We don't want people to change the setting we like" is completely sufficient argument for someone to want to keep their interpretation of the setting from changing. I'm not arguing against that in the slightest, and apologies if I've come across like I have been. I know people care about this universe to a near-irrational degree (I know, I'm one of them!), and just the fact that they care about something for no real reason is fine

What I I don't think either justifies or explains just why the community response regarding female Marines is so strong, compared to other similar statements.

Lets use your example of another fact-statement: Ultramarines are Blue.

Now, if I start a thread here on the Background forum stating that I have an idea for an army of Ultramarines that wear white armour, with a fluff explanation that their Captain's heraldic colours involved a white lion on a field of azure. Known to them as 'the Lion of Ultramar', the entire company was shocked and saddened by his death at the hands of a World Eaters champion. In deference to of their fallen hero, they repainted their armour in white and renamed their company 'The Lions of Ultramar' in his honour.

Now, I can pretty much guarantee that I will not have 10 pages and counting of discussion trying to justify my white Ultramarines to a reasonable percentage of the community who are stating 'but they're not Ultramarines because the lore says Ultramarines are blue'. Despite the fact that Ultramarines being blue is a significant feature of their lore. People might be thinking 'nah, you can't have white Ultramarines' and that's fine, but they won't spend 10 pages trying to convince me that white Ultramarines are a lore impossibility, stating that while my white Marines may well be 100% Ultramarine except the fact they're white, they're not actually Ultramarines because they're not blue, or saying 'why don't you just play White Scars if you want white Marines'.*

They might think it (which is absolutely fine and I don't in any way want to police the way people think about their own model of the 40k universe) but they won't defend it with the same kind of vehemence. Because it's routine and accepted to bend fact-statements about the 40k universe, provided you have a half-decent fluff explanation, for seemingly anything except female marines.

This is why I think the community's treatment of female Space Marines is odd, does not follow logic, just results on a lot of hurt feelings and animosity on both sides of the debate, and it's useful for people to sit down and reflect on why they get so annoyed about it.

*I'd even be happy to conduct an experiment on that in order to support my point. I'd be happy to post up a topic titled 'White Ultramarines' in Background, give my little fluff explanation and see what happens. Provided we can make it as unbiased as possible (probably meaning that no-one with a horse in this particular race is to post in it, unless anyone can think of another way of ensuring no-one skews the results).

Your main premise is, the female Space Marines concept is no different from any other deviation from official background material. You keep stating it as a question - why is the idea of female SM treated so differently? - but given that I comprehensively answered the question, at this point I am pretty sure you are being entirely rhetorical. In fact, I think you are now arguing that the notion of female Space Marines should be treated the same way as any other proposed deviation from published material.

But you are arguing in the face of reality here. Let's go back to OP's example of gorilla SM. Gorilla SM is just as bad as or worse than, in terms of not fitting the published material, female SM. Yet the former (probably) wouldn't produce reams of pushback because it is not code for judging/trolling/making fun of 40k fans. But the latter is exactly that. So what you are in effect arguing is that 40k fans should be cool with being trolled.

This is why I keep noting - come to the community with an awesome-looking converted army and an ethusiastic attitude and people will understand you are not trolling ... and, as if by magic, there will not be the same amount of pushback. Frontload a demonstration of sincerity. As opposed to - like in this case - frontloading judgementalism.

Ultramarines painted white would look like World Eaters, I would call the inquisition on them after such an event.

But people would ask a simple question.

Why do they have to be white? Why not middle eastern?

I desist.

But people wouldn't care much simply because Space marines already have the history of changing their paint job. They do it in fluff a odd amount depending on context. Crusades have entire companies from different chapters painting a Crusade color on their left arm in older fluff. Dark Angels have an entire company in a different color for the same reason. Raptors switched their entire color scheme. Raven Guard camoflauge, Black Templars arose from Imperial Fists because they painted their armor black.

Yaddayaddayadda.

It has precedent. After all its not like you took guilliman and went and said he declared fuchsia the color of the week for Ultramarines.

Edit: I hate my phone.

Manchu wrote:
Your main premise is, the female Space Marines concept is no different from any other deviation from official background material. You keep stating it as a question - why is the idea of female SM treated so differently? - but given that I comprehensively answered the question, at this point I am pretty sure you are being entirely rhetorical. In fact, I think you are now arguing that the notion of female Space Marines should be treated the same way as any other proposed deviation from published material.

But you are arguing in the face of reality here. Let's go back to OP's example of gorilla SM. Gorilla SM is just as bad as or worse than, in terms of not fitting the published material, female SM. Yet the former (probably) wouldn't produce reams of pushback because it is not code for judging/trolling/making fun of 40k fans. But the latter is exactly that. So what you are in effect arguing is that 40k fans should be cool with being trolled.

This is why I keep noting - come to the community with an awesome-looking converted army and an ethusiastic attitude and people will understand you are not trolling ... and, as if by magic, there will not be the same amount of pushback. Frontload a demonstration of sincerity. As opposed to - like in this case - frontloading judgementalism.

Firstly the very concept of wanting female space marines for any reason, ( Think its cute? Think its cool? Want variation? Hell you saw some cool fan art that inspired you ) Than that should not be "code for trolling" The concept of liking female space marines should not be considered so ridiculous and insane that the only reason anyone could possible want it is to troll.
Now I wont deny ever trolling people, After seeing a sore spot that frustrates you in a community that frustrates you its hard not to pick at it and lash back, But if you do that in the past cause you get mad or frustrated or aggrivated that doesnt mean that you dont also like the idea or cant possibly be genuine. I made this post not to discuss space marines but to get constructive and fair feed back and help fixing up loose ends, not to face a wave of opposition and a hundread dudes trying to convince me why what i want is dumb and i should not want it. That wasnt the point of this post and as you can see iv started coming back less and less cause its gotten so far derailed and made into something its not.
Now i am very happy for the support iv recieved and Iam even happier about the people who have put there bias's or opinions aside to actually give me genuine information i can use and helped me decide which army is the coolest of the bunch.
So in the end, Yeah i poked at a nerve in the past cause I was mad but this is something I actually do care about reguardles of that. the two are not mutually exclusive, but that this was not the point of this discussion, a nice talk full of helpful information ware we leave our flag waving "defense of fluff" at the door.

And when you say if i made a beautifully converted army with polite enthusiasm id be met with possitivity? That is not at all true. I was on a forum the other day ware this guy was showing off frankly the prettiest made fem pace marine iv ever seen and the comments were things like "Looks good, now burn it" cause people could not let go of there hatred for it long enough to just admire the work of art. Or they would go onto paragraphs of informing him "why i dont support fem marines" sometimes a post just isnt about your opinions on the existence of fem marines and they just want to show there art or get some help justifying something, if dont want to justify it than dont post.

I hate this mentality of every disagreement or anyone saying or holding confrontational views is automatically a troll and thus should be disreguarded. Heres the thing, people have nuances, people are complicated.

 DizzyStorey wrote:
That wasnt the point of this post and as you can see iv started coming back less and less cause its gotten so far derailed and made into something its not.

The conversation moved on from femarines to theories about Gue'la. Then you came back into the thread to post this:which is what rekindled talk about femarines. You are stirring the pot at the same time that you are complaining about it. This is exactly why the femarines concept is code for trolling. Again:

Manchu wrote:
If you have the money and the time, you can make whatever army you like. But you already know that. So is it just a question of requiring some kind of approval from others? Or teasing them for withholding it? Seems pointless in either case.