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 Future War Cultist wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but...aren't Greenskins bloody nasty in AoS? I heard that even little Night Goblins can be brutal. Wouldn't you guys want 40k greenskins (and nids) to be a serious force again?

Greenskins are pretty damn good in AOS, mainly because they have the best out of the command traits, alleigance abilities, and relics. Rampaging destroyers and Ironfists make Ironjawz as fast as warpspiders. Battlebrew is just plain mean on behemoths. Meteoric hammerblades turns that puny heroe into an horde blender, easily scoring a dozen mortal wounds per round against big units. Talisman of protection gives you a 4++ against MW, the highest you can get (and only nagash has it) Vituperation blade is the bane of Hero-hammer. Bonesplitterz are extremely efficient with shooting. Goblins can pull nasty "cavalry" lists and the moonclan goblins are actually one of the (if not THE) most competitive troop choice in AOS. Regular greenskinz are a bit of jack of all trades, more fragile than the new versions but more numerous (albeti stronger and more elite than grots) but they excel in their support capabilities. Out of all the greenskin based destruction range, their warbosses are the best army buffers.

Just to summarize a bit:

1) Ironjawz. Excellent meelee game. Amongst the top 5 fastest armies of the game, easily the first if we discount alpha-striking. Their warbosses on foot, megabosses, and brute bosses punch way above their weight clases. They are an army geared to ram against elite armies.
2)Bonesplitterz. Excellent ranged game but not slouches in combat. Has a good magic utility and amount of bodies. Excellent against monsters.
3)Greenskinz. Decent meelee and range. Has excellent buffing abilities, that brutally synergize with other greenskin factions. Good for the backbone of an army.
4) Moonclan grots. The kings of horde play. Since body count is how objectives are captured, they are also the most efficient troop choice in the game. They have also great heroes for supporting them.
5) Spiderfang grots. Good speed, meelee and multiple shenanigans.

I'd rather the game play out like an equal game of chess; at the moment it plays out like chess, but one player's side has more queens and knights and the other player has more pawns. Oh and the queens and knights cost the most real money. If you look at tournament winning armies the majority are $500+. So much for buying the starter pack and a couple models you like and expecting to be competitive. You better devote time to buying 20+combi meltas and missile launchers separately from the boxed sets. Oh and if you bring terminators or other models that look cool but aren't "worth their points" you're a slow because the current 'meta' calls for units that move fast and hit hard. If you aren't devoting 40+ hours of planning and play testing your list you might as well not show up.

At least AoS allows everyone to do damage to everyone. And its possible for a newbie to go toe to toe with an experienced player.

I'd rather the game play out like an equal game of chess; at the moment it plays out like chess, but one player's side has more queens and knights and the other player has more pawns. Oh and the queens and knights cost the most real money. If you look at tournament winning armies the majority are $500+. So much for buying the starter pack and a couple models you like and expecting to be competitive. You better devote time to buying 20+combi meltas and missile launchers separately from the boxed sets. Oh and if you bring terminators or other models that look cool but aren't "worth their points" you're a slow because the current 'meta' calls for units that move fast and hit hard. If you aren't devoting 40+ hours of planning and play testing your list you might as well not show up.

At least AoS allows everyone to do damage to everyone. And its possible for a newbie to go toe to toe with an experienced player.

You would be amazed just how 1 sided AoS can also be though.
Through formation and command benefits some armies are plain stupid.

I love AoS just as much as fantasy, don't get me wrong.
But when someone spams Skryre, kunnin rukk etc in friendly games you soon realise how it's possible to lose a game in 2 turns.

Some things are just a pain like mournguls.
Throw mystic shield on them and buff with specific command traits and you have a high damage output model with a 2+ save, 4+ save against mortal wounds, ignores rend and gets a 5+ save after all that against normal and mortal.
All that on top of being able to heal, good movement, plenty of tricks and generating more damage.

Through certain spells you can catapult them across the board or with the book, instantly summon them.



Simply put, AoS can be abused just as much as 40k.
It is however a lot rarer from what I've seen.
While you do pay for formations, some are easily worth double their cost.

 Jackal wrote:
You would be amazed just how 1 sided AoS can also be though.
Through formation and command benefits some armies are plain stupid.

I love AoS just as much as fantasy, don't get me wrong.
But when someone spams Skryre, kunnin rukk etc in friendly games you soon realise how it's possible to lose a game in 2 turns.

Some things are just a pain like mournguls.
Throw mystic shield on them and buff with specific command traits and you have a high damage output model with a 2+ save, 4+ save against mortal wounds, ignores rend and gets a 5+ save after all that against normal and mortal.
All that on top of being able to heal, good movement, plenty of tricks and generating more damage.

Through certain spells you can catapult them across the board or with the book, instantly summon them.



Simply put, AoS can be abused just as much as 40k.
It is however a lot rarer from what I've seen.
While you do pay for formations, some are easily worth double their cost.

Hah, don't remember me about the mourngul. Funny thing, that's a forgeworld model.

It's funny, the FW stigma still exists.

Ignore the fact that chaos dwarves are tamakurans horde are pure FW armies and terrible.
Or the fact that the mourngul is one of the only overly strong FW units in the game.

It is however stupidly high points to reflect that.
Most people will either shoot it or throw something with high wounds at it to prevent regeneration.


Still rather face double or triple mourngul at 2k than kunnin rukk.

Yeah, Age of Sigmar still has 3-4 list or units that are VERY OP.

Its a GW rule system afterall.

The difference with the state of 40k its that the rest are more similar in power level, and in general you have more real variation in a faction or army with much more options being actually useful.

And free rules, faster gameplay, etc, etc...

But, in a personal level, I don't want 40k to be EXACTLY like AoS. I think that different systems are good, and I don't want every system to be exact the same because that its pretty boring. But 40k can learn some lessons from his younger brother.

>Sylvaneth tree thingies
>Sigmarines
>Undead

Those three I know from experience are heinously powerful armies in the game (admittedly there are some I have not played yet) and they will give any other army a beasting.

Now, I saw someone mention horde armies and how they would be perfectly fine under the battleshock system.
Lies.
As a Skaven player I can tell you that Battleshock is one of the most stupid implementations within the game and no matter how many morale buffs you get for taking models in a unit you still will not have enough to matter. As you take more your unit gets bigger and costs more and so does the amount of elite figures your opponent have to throw at it rise. You are screwed no matter what you do, unless you have one of the magical "Ignore Battleshock" standards/items/abilities within your army, and then you have to keep it within range of every single one of your units or you will lose them.
I had a game once against undead and my 50 rat Skaven clanrat block hit a 20 Skeleton unit. The Skeletons won through sheer attrition and laughably good battleshock - they had 10 and I had 5. My unit just bled morale caused casualties. In the most recent game I had 20 Clanrats became 6 after a really bad Battleshock roll.

The only way to stop this from happening is to have a BS immunity item/ability and to keep EVERYTHING within range of it at once. If something slips out, or your immunity wielder is sniped, it is good bye army.

If AoS comes to 40K then Guard, Orks and Tyranids will be dead.

 master of ordinance wrote:
>Sylvaneth tree thingies
>Sigmarines
>Undead

Those three I know from experience are heinously powerful armies in the game (admittedly there are some I have not played yet) and they will give any other army a beasting.

Now, I saw someone mention horde armies and how they would be perfectly fine under the battleshock system.
Lies.
As a Skaven player I can tell you that Battleshock is one of the most stupid implementations within the game and no matter how many morale buffs you get for taking models in a unit you still will not have enough to matter. As you take more your unit gets bigger and costs more and so does the amount of elite figures your opponent have to throw at it rise. You are screwed no matter what you do, unless you have one of the magical "Ignore Battleshock" standards/items/abilities within your army, and then you have to keep it within range of every single one of your units or you will lose them.
I had a game once against undead and my 50 rat Skaven clanrat block hit a 20 Skeleton unit. The Skeletons won through sheer attrition and laughably good battleshock - they had 10 and I had 5. My unit just bled morale caused casualties. In the most recent game I had 20 Clanrats became 6 after a really bad Battleshock roll.

The only way to stop this from happening is to have a BS immunity item/ability and to keep EVERYTHING within range of it at once. If something slips out, or your immunity wielder is sniped, it is good bye army.

If AoS comes to 40K then Guard, Orks and Tyranids will be dead.

Inspiring presence, verminous clawpack. BAM! Problem solved with that unit's morale.

 master of ordinance wrote:


If AoS comes to 40K then Guard, Orks and Tyranids will be dead.

So no much difference then?

And Dead, besides Mourngul, are a pretty outdated army. Not are they the weakest as an alliance, but they aren't one of the top dogs as you said.

 master of ordinance wrote:
>Sylvaneth tree thingies
>Sigmarines
>Undead

Those three I know from experience are heinously powerful armies in the game (admittedly there are some I have not played yet) and they will give any other army a beasting.

Now, I saw someone mention horde armies and how they would be perfectly fine under the battleshock system.
Lies.
As a Skaven player I can tell you that Battleshock is one of the most stupid implementations within the game and no matter how many morale buffs you get for taking models in a unit you still will not have enough to matter. As you take more your unit gets bigger and costs more and so does the amount of elite figures your opponent have to throw at it rise. You are screwed no matter what you do, unless you have one of the magical "Ignore Battleshock" standards/items/abilities within your army, and then you have to keep it within range of every single one of your units or you will lose them.
I had a game once against undead and my 50 rat Skaven clanrat block hit a 20 Skeleton unit. The Skeletons won through sheer attrition and laughably good battleshock - they had 10 and I had 5. My unit just bled morale caused casualties. In the most recent game I had 20 Clanrats became 6 after a really bad Battleshock roll.

The only way to stop this from happening is to have a BS immunity item/ability and to keep EVERYTHING within range of it at once. If something slips out, or your immunity wielder is sniped, it is good bye army.

If AoS comes to 40K then Guard, Orks and Tyranids will be dead.

This is the 'liar' speaking.

In your example, let me ask you something. Did you take a Grey Seer? Or a Screaming Bell? Or a Chieftain with a Battle Standard? If not, why not? All three of these units help with Battleshock, which Skaven will quite rightly be vulnerable to. And then there's the Verminus Clawpack formation.

Before you call me a liar, maybe you should reconsider your choices and move to alleviate your armies weaknesses like a good player should.

 Jackal wrote:
It's funny, the FW stigma still exists.

Ignore the fact that chaos dwarves are tamakurans horde are pure FW armies and terrible.
Or the fact that the mourngul is one of the only overly strong FW units in the game.

It is however stupidly high points to reflect that.
Most people will either shoot it or throw something with high wounds at it to prevent regeneration.


Still rather face double or triple mourngul at 2k than kunnin rukk.

The fun part was of the stygma. Mournghul is the only remotely OP thing from AoS FW. It's also the only remotely OP thing in current Death production.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
>Sylvaneth tree thingies
>Sigmarines
>Undead

Those three I know from experience are heinously powerful armies in the game (admittedly there are some I have not played yet) and they will give any other army a beasting.

Now, I saw someone mention horde armies and how they would be perfectly fine under the battleshock system.
Lies.
As a Skaven player I can tell you that Battleshock is one of the most stupid implementations within the game and no matter how many morale buffs you get for taking models in a unit you still will not have enough to matter. As you take more your unit gets bigger and costs more and so does the amount of elite figures your opponent have to throw at it rise. You are screwed no matter what you do, unless you have one of the magical "Ignore Battleshock" standards/items/abilities within your army, and then you have to keep it within range of every single one of your units or you will lose them.
I had a game once against undead and my 50 rat Skaven clanrat block hit a 20 Skeleton unit. The Skeletons won through sheer attrition and laughably good battleshock - they had 10 and I had 5. My unit just bled morale caused casualties. In the most recent game I had 20 Clanrats became 6 after a really bad Battleshock roll.

The only way to stop this from happening is to have a BS immunity item/ability and to keep EVERYTHING within range of it at once. If something slips out, or your immunity wielder is sniped, it is good bye army.

If AoS comes to 40K then Guard, Orks and Tyranids will be dead.

Inspiring presence, verminous clawpack. BAM! Problem solved with that unit's morale.

Yeah, just spend a bunch of points to gain a little extra advantage by bringing these very few average-ability units, but hey at least battleshock tests wont hurt as mu-oh wait. If it was +2 morale per every 10 then maybe you would be on to something, but +1 morale per ten is pathetic when you consider just how many points you have to dump into these average-at-best units to gain any real benefit. And even still, by the time you have spent all those points the other player with his 'character' army (as opposed to your 'NPC mooks' army) has the equivalent points in his uba powerful guys and can just inflict so many casualties that even with 50+ Skaven in the unit the +1 bonuses still do not really matter.

 Galas wrote:
Yeah, Age of Sigmar still has 3-4 list or units that are VERY OP.

Its a GW rule system afterall.

The difference with the state of 40k its that the rest are more similar in power level, and in general you have more real variation in a faction or army with much more options being actually useful.

And free rules, faster gameplay, etc, etc...

But, in a personal level, I don't want 40k to be EXACTLY like AoS. I think that different systems are good, and I don't want every system to be exact the same because that its pretty boring. But 40k can learn some lessons from his younger brother.

Make it three, Warrior brotherhood and Knight Taxyros are no longer amongst us...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
>Sylvaneth tree thingies
>Sigmarines
>Undead

Those three I know from experience are heinously powerful armies in the game (admittedly there are some I have not played yet) and they will give any other army a beasting.

Now, I saw someone mention horde armies and how they would be perfectly fine under the battleshock system.
Lies.
As a Skaven player I can tell you that Battleshock is one of the most stupid implementations within the game and no matter how many morale buffs you get for taking models in a unit you still will not have enough to matter. As you take more your unit gets bigger and costs more and so does the amount of elite figures your opponent have to throw at it rise. You are screwed no matter what you do, unless you have one of the magical "Ignore Battleshock" standards/items/abilities within your army, and then you have to keep it within range of every single one of your units or you will lose them.
I had a game once against undead and my 50 rat Skaven clanrat block hit a 20 Skeleton unit. The Skeletons won through sheer attrition and laughably good battleshock - they had 10 and I had 5. My unit just bled morale caused casualties. In the most recent game I had 20 Clanrats became 6 after a really bad Battleshock roll.

The only way to stop this from happening is to have a BS immunity item/ability and to keep EVERYTHING within range of it at once. If something slips out, or your immunity wielder is sniped, it is good bye army.

If AoS comes to 40K then Guard, Orks and Tyranids will be dead.

Inspiring presence, verminous clawpack. BAM! Problem solved with that unit's morale.

Yeah, just spend a bunch of points to gain a little extra advantage by bringing these very few average-ability units, but hey at least battleshock tests wont hurt as mu-oh wait. If it was +2 morale per every 10 then maybe you would be on to something, but +1 morale per ten is pathetic when you consider just how many points you have to dump into these average-at-best units to gain any real benefit. And even still, by the time you have spent all those points the other player with his 'character' army (as opposed to your 'NPC mooks' army) has the equivalent points in his uba powerful guys and can just inflict so many casualties that even with 50+ Skaven in the unit the +1 bonuses still do not really matter.

... You DO know that verminous clawpack gives +2 to bravery per ten models, do you?

I have 0 knowledge with Skavens, but in the "meta" of my Club, the Horde armys (Skeletons/Zombies, Goblins, Bloodbound with marauders/bloodreavers, Freeguild) are pretty strong and normally they don't have a problem with battleshock.

But you know what? Hordes are much less vulnerable to mortal wounds and can have a much bigger presence in objetives and map. If they are more vulnerable to Battleshock... well, thats just ok.

The problem with "Hordes" its always how much they die and his low morale.

So we're back to "Get good" as a counterpoint? This will end well...



Have we gotten any more tidbits that may tell us how much of this conjecture is accurate?

Well, if one person say

"Battleshock kill horde armys because my skavens die to battleshock"

and other guys respond with

"But Skavens have this and this to counter his vulnerability to battleshock"

Don't sound to me as "get good"

So 40k can learn so many things from AoS, yet AoS suffers from pretty much the same issues (certain OP units and combos, "outdated" armies being left in the gutter as the arms race goes on and on, etc.) GW games have always suffered from.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but...aren't Greenskins bloody nasty in AoS? I heard that even little Night Goblins can be brutal. Wouldn't you guys want 40k greenskins (and nids) to be a serious force again?

Greenskins are pretty damn good in AOS, mainly because they have the best out of the command traits, alleigance abilities, and relics. Rampaging destroyers and Ironfists make Ironjawz as fast as warpspiders. Battlebrew is just plain mean on behemoths. Meteoric hammerblades turns that puny heroe into an horde blender, easily scoring a dozen mortal wounds per round against big units. Talisman of protection gives you a 4++ against MW, the highest you can get (and only nagash has it) Vituperation blade is the bane of Hero-hammer. Bonesplitterz are extremely efficient with shooting. Goblins can pull nasty "cavalry" lists and the moonclan goblins are actually one of the (if not THE) most competitive troop choice in AOS. Regular greenskinz are a bit of jack of all trades, more fragile than the new versions but more numerous (albeti stronger and more elite than grots) but they excel in their support capabilities. Out of all the greenskin based destruction range, their warbosses are the best army buffers.

Just to summarize a bit:

1) Ironjawz. Excellent meelee game. Amongst the top 5 fastest armies of the game, easily the first if we discount alpha-striking. Their warbosses on foot, megabosses, and brute bosses punch way above their weight clases. They are an army geared to ram against elite armies.
2)Bonesplitterz. Excellent ranged game but not slouches in combat. Has a good magic utility and amount of bodies. Excellent against monsters.
3)Greenskinz. Decent meelee and range. Has excellent buffing abilities, that brutally synergize with other greenskin factions. Good for the backbone of an army.
4) Moonclan grots. The kings of horde play. Since body count is how objectives are captured, they are also the most efficient troop choice in the game. They have also great heroes for supporting them.
5) Spiderfang grots. Good speed, meelee and multiple shenanigans.

I almost missed this. Thank you for telling me this.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Yeah, Age of Sigmar still has 3-4 list or units that are VERY OP.

Its a GW rule system afterall.

The difference with the state of 40k its that the rest are more similar in power level, and in general you have more real variation in a faction or army with much more options being actually useful.

And free rules, faster gameplay, etc, etc...

But, in a personal level, I don't want 40k to be EXACTLY like AoS. I think that different systems are good, and I don't want every system to be exact the same because that its pretty boring. But 40k can learn some lessons from his younger brother.

Make it three, Warrior brotherhood and Knight Taxyros are no longer amongst us...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
>Sylvaneth tree thingies
>Sigmarines
>Undead

Those three I know from experience are heinously powerful armies in the game (admittedly there are some I have not played yet) and they will give any other army a beasting.

Now, I saw someone mention horde armies and how they would be perfectly fine under the battleshock system.
Lies.
As a Skaven player I can tell you that Battleshock is one of the most stupid implementations within the game and no matter how many morale buffs you get for taking models in a unit you still will not have enough to matter. As you take more your unit gets bigger and costs more and so does the amount of elite figures your opponent have to throw at it rise. You are screwed no matter what you do, unless you have one of the magical "Ignore Battleshock" standards/items/abilities within your army, and then you have to keep it within range of every single one of your units or you will lose them.
I had a game once against undead and my 50 rat Skaven clanrat block hit a 20 Skeleton unit. The Skeletons won through sheer attrition and laughably good battleshock - they had 10 and I had 5. My unit just bled morale caused casualties. In the most recent game I had 20 Clanrats became 6 after a really bad Battleshock roll.

The only way to stop this from happening is to have a BS immunity item/ability and to keep EVERYTHING within range of it at once. If something slips out, or your immunity wielder is sniped, it is good bye army.

If AoS comes to 40K then Guard, Orks and Tyranids will be dead.

Inspiring presence, verminous clawpack. BAM! Problem solved with that unit's morale.

Yeah, just spend a bunch of points to gain a little extra advantage by bringing these very few average-ability units, but hey at least battleshock tests wont hurt as mu-oh wait. If it was +2 morale per every 10 then maybe you would be on to something, but +1 morale per ten is pathetic when you consider just how many points you have to dump into these average-at-best units to gain any real benefit. And even still, by the time you have spent all those points the other player with his 'character' army (as opposed to your 'NPC mooks' army) has the equivalent points in his uba powerful guys and can just inflict so many casualties that even with 50+ Skaven in the unit the +1 bonuses still do not really matter.

... You DO know that verminous clawpack gives +2 to bravery per ten models, do you?

So you 50 Clanrats might last two turns instead of one? But you are still left with a pile of worthless mooks who will still get slaughtered and still die once they start dropping numbers.

 Korinov wrote:
So 40k can learn so many things from AoS, yet AoS suffers from pretty much the same issues (certain OP units and combos, "outdated" armies being left in the gutter as the arms race goes on and on, etc.) GW games have always suffered from.

Nobody said that AoS was a perfect system, not even that it was a GREAT system. (To me, the better system GW has ever produced was the LOTR one)

It has some of the problems of 40k as you mention, but at a MUCH lower scale. And that doesn't negate that, besides those problems, its has other things that are just much better, like the formation system. Its those kind of things that 40K can learn from AoS.

And we have to remember: This its the internet, where everything its OP, and everything its trash at the same time, and you only will face OP-ComboWombo armys and TFG all the time

 Galas wrote:
Well, if one person say

"Battleshock kill horde armys because my skavens die to battleshock"

and other guys respond with

"But Skavens have this and this to counter his vulnerability to battleshock"

Don't sound to me as "get good"

As I pointed out, it does not matter how big our bonus-per-10-models, as soon as you take casualties you start losing models, losing the bonus, and losing even more models. With 50 Clanrats you are looking at what, a quarter of a 1K game, and they do start out with Battleshock 13 under the formations rules. By turn two they are probably down to Battleshock 11, and then they commit to a charge and get slaughtered down to 6 as your opponents heavy infantry/beasts laugh them off and wail in on them.
And then you fail Battleshock, more run and the whole thing turns into a cascade failure.

 Galas wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
So 40k can learn so many things from AoS, yet AoS suffers from pretty much the same issues (certain OP units and combos, "outdated" armies being left in the gutter as the arms race goes on and on, etc.) GW games have always suffered from.

Nobody said that AoS was a perfect system, not even that it was a GREAT system.

It has some of the problems of 40k as you mention, but at a MUCH lower scale. And that doesn't negate that, besides those problems, its has other things that are just much better, like the formation system. Its those kind of things that 40K can learn from AoS.

Well, current 40k is the sad result of many years of arms race, design shifts, fanfiction-level writing (for both rules and background) and insane piling of special rules upon more special rules. AoS is a much younger game in comparison, so obviously they've had way less time to screw up. The fact that it's already showing quite a bunch of typical GW antics does not paint a pretty picture for the future. It actually suggests GW has learnt pretty little from their mistakes of the past, and will likely keep repeating them again and again.

Also, I don't think 40k needs any kind of formation system. The traditional CAD system can work just nice if proper restrictions are put into place, with variations that allow players to alleviate some restrictions in exchange of making others heavier (this worked really well in the 3.5 CSM codex, despite some mistakes and oversights on Haines' part). The problem with 40k is that all restraint went well out of the window a long time ago, 0-1 restrictions were erased because it was all about selling more and more models, rules be damned. And formation shenanigams did nothing to improve things in the long run, mostly because - unlike many innocent players still believe - from the beginning they were designed with only one single goal in mind: to goad players into buying more models.

I look at AoS and don't like what I see. It was initially advertised as a free-rules game with a low model count. The rules proved to be absolutely abysmal upon release, and since then of course non-free supplements have been released in order to 'fix' it. The low model is countered by the fact that most new models are outrageously expensive.

I will concede that of course there are a few things 40k could learn from AoS. There are also a million things 40k could learn from other games, but it just won't happen.

Left 40k and been AoSing since its release,,yes all the way back when it "wasnt cool" to play AoS..

Yes,AoS has its OTT lists and units,,however,one of the big balancing factors in matched play is the variance of the 6 scenarios listed for matched play;

Each OPed list will struggle against a mid range list in at least one of the 6 scenarios.Some scenarios allow you castle up,some make you cover the board well,some require you to have a strong Hero element and so on.

For those that didnt follow the LVO results for the AoS championship,out of the 73 players that competed,2 players lost all thier games and 1 player won all their games...try to get those results in a similar size 40k event...

I agree with what you said, besides the "abysmall" of AoS rules on release.

And the price for the miniatures, yep, it was insane with Stormcasts, they where priced (And still are even with reductions) as if they where made of actual gold. Now, it is even reasonable to fantasy and GW standard (like 20 kairic acolytes for 40€).

But, with the help of the community (Because now GW its actually talking with "pro-players" and all that to make the big rulebooks) I think that AoS, if GW its interested, can avoid the actual 40k state.

EDIT: With all that Korinov said.

Another pre-handbook AoS player here.

 Galas wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
So 40k can learn so many things from AoS, yet AoS suffers from pretty much the same issues (certain OP units and combos, "outdated" armies being left in the gutter as the arms race goes on and on, etc.) GW games have always suffered from.

Nobody said that AoS was a perfect system, not even that it was a GREAT system. (To me, the better system GW has ever produced was the LOTR one)

It has some of the problems of 40k as you mention, but at a MUCH lower scale. And that doesn't negate that, besides those problems, its has other things that are just much better, like the formation system. Its those kind of things that 40K can learn from AoS.

This is what doesn't encourage me. GW should be looking outside of their games to find GOOD options rather than "40k does it terrible, AoS does is badly but better, so lets use the AoS system!".

AoS's morale system just sounds yuck, I don't really care if some people think it's better than the 40k morale system because the 40k morale system is also junk

AoS does formations better? Oh, those things I wish never existed in the first place are done better by AoS? Sorry if I'm not getting excited

AoS has overly simplified rules such that to regain variety every unit needs special rules, just flicking through it seems on average AoS units have 3 or 4 or more bespoke rules. The upside is these rules are instead printed in the warscrolls instead of a stupidly large USR section like 40k. But IMO it's still a terrible system; at least in the context of a larger scale wargame like 40k is (fine for something like an RPG or very small scale skirmish where it's realistic to read and learn all the rules for all the units on the table during the pregame setup).

If you have half a brain you break down the armies into five or six individual units and move them as such. I understand that having ten to twenty models per unit is a little confusing but that doesn't complicate it. Unless it's easier for you to only use 2-3, but I'd say 5-6 is probably average for AoS. Pretty close for 40K as well. If for those 5-6 you had to learn 5-6 pages of rules that's super easy=AoS. 40k=3-4 FAQs, main rule book, codex, supplement easily equating to 100+ pages at the minimum. How can anyone playing 40k complain about bespoke rules when every tournament directs players to have all sources available?

I run my entire AoS army on a single, one sided sheet of paper.

I mean, sure, I play Rotbringers, so my unit selection is Blight Kings and... more Blight Kings, but even most other armies should have no trouble fitting their entire breadth of rules onto one or two sheets.

I have 12 different units in my Krieg list.