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That doesn't seem bad considering that equates to a 40k which only gets it's bathwater thrown out.

Edit: Ah, you edited in more stuff to that comment.

They've could've added in Stormcast as anything from Sigmar's divine soldiers to Gelt's new army made from his powers of necromancy and alchemy.

Seemed more about copyright more than anything and do we really want the Aold Wyrld?

That's neither here nor there though since this is a rules discussion.

Baron Klatz wrote:
That doesn't seem bad considering that equates to a 40k which only gets it's bathwater thrown out.

If 40k-AoS was universally reviled then there's at least the comfort they'll swiftly(ish) release a version much closer to prior editions. So no, it doesn't seem quite as bad. That, and even if they practically made 8th into AoS complete with four pages of rules, at least it would still be a lot closer to 7th compared to what AoS was to WHFB.

Eh, we'll just have to see how it pans out.

Nobody liked (Okay, some yes, but those are of rare kind) the death of the old world. Nobody wanted it.

But some of us stop crying his death, because in the end its a fictional game, and all things come to an end, even if you can still play it (Just as I do every week) or read his lore.
When my grandfather died, my grandmother spend the next 15 years wearing all black and mourning his death. The End Times finished in 2015.

But the bitterness of those that just call people that like other games "cult-like fanbase" its tiresome. As if Fanboys and Haters weren't to faces of the same coin, you know.

And in the Adepticons results, yeah. Thats a good slap of reality to those people that just, ignoring the state of the game, call that its the most unbalance thing on earth.

And before you say anything, no, AoS its not the best game in the world, not the most balanced. But are we talking of GW or not? You can't create a silk purse from a pig's ear.

If GW can make 40k achieve the level of balance that exist in AoS, without nuking his system and making it AoS 2.0, I'll be the first to clap and jump to play it again. But first of all I'm a narrative player, and to me the good Imperium of Old with the degradation of everything its gone with the Guilliman New-Age, but at least the galaxy its still here.

 Arbitrator wrote:
That, and even if they practically made 8th into AoS complete with four pages of rules, at least it would still be a lot closer to 7th compared to what AoS was to WHFB.

That's a fair point... at least AoS-40K would still be the same type of game. Just with a completely different rules structure. 40K has weathered that before (twice).

My main issue with the change from WHFB to AoS was less to do with the actual rules and more to do with the fact that they took a ranked, largely-generic fantasy game (which I enjoyed) and turned it into a skirmish-formation magic & steampunk game (which I'm not particularly interested in, as I already have Warmachine).

If AoS had resulted in a mass shakeup of the rules, but still been the same type of game, I would have been far more open to trying it out.

 Arbitrator wrote:

morgoth wrote:
I like how despite AoS beating old WHFB sales, people still argue that maybe GW made a mistake.

Guys... they made money, and it didn't take 5 years to catch up to the old dying game that had a very large cost base.

What's not to like?

Even crazier, we're getting reports of HAPPY people who had a great time with a GW game.

I like how despite AoS' relative success its cult-like fanbase still insist that killing WHFB was a good thing and we should all be grateful for it.

They added Fantasy Space Marines to get the 40k players to pick up the game. That was always going to sell. If they added Sigmarines into the Old World we'd probably see sales skyrocket, but they were nigh-on impossible to justify adding so... out the whole setting went.

The problem with AoS has never been about whether a rules-lite skirmish game unto itself was the problem. The issue was that they threw out the baby with the bathwater, along with the bath itself, the pipes, the drain, etc.

You know what I like? People still spiteful who still feel they need to go and insult people MULTIPLE TIMES in order to make an argument against something they don't like. But hey, I'm a cultist of course I cannot see the truth since I'm maybe brainwashed.

 Galas wrote:
Nobody liked (Okay, some yes, but those are of rare kind) the death of the old world. Nobody wanted it.

Spoiler:

But some of us stop crying his death, because in the end its a fictional game, and all things come to an end, even if you can still play it (Just as I do every week) or read his lore.
When my grandfather died, my grandmother spend the next 15 years wearing all black and mourning his death. The End Times finished in 2015.

But the bitterness of those that just call people that like other games "cult-like fanbase" its tiresome. As if Fanboys and Haters weren't to faces of the same coin, you know.

And in the Adepticons results, yeah. Thats a good slap of reality to those people that just, ignoring the state of the game, call that its the most unbalance thing on earth.

And before you say anything, no, AoS its not the best game in the world, not the most balanced. But are we talking of GW or not? You can't create a silk purse from a pig's ear.

If GW can make 40k achieve the level of balance that exist in AoS, without nuking his system and making it AoS 2.0, I'll be the first to clap and jump to play it again. But first of all I'm a narrative player, and to me the good Imperium of Old with the degradation of everything its gone with the Guilliman New-Age, but at least the galaxy its still here.

Maybe in your quarter of the world, most people didn't like the bloated rules, haven't seen anyone who disliked old world setting yet, it was so diverse and a faction for everybody.
I don't mind the whole overhauling of the rules in 40K but if they do an AOS there will be a bigger backlash, most people got in to the game because of the setting.
Not because of the rules there have always been better rulesets out there.

morgoth wrote:

It's called pinning.

I know. Pinning... Which doesn't do Jack-All for the amount of shots somebody can sometimes make, which in my opinion should cause pinning in the first place. 60+ shots from a gun line, and no pinning because the weapons do not cause such. A suppression mechanic could, would, and should factor in volume of fire.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Nobody liked (Okay, some yes, but those are of rare kind) the death of the old world. Nobody wanted it.

Spoiler:

But some of us stop crying his death, because in the end its a fictional game, and all things come to an end, even if you can still play it (Just as I do every week) or read his lore.
When my grandfather died, my grandmother spend the next 15 years wearing all black and mourning his death. The End Times finished in 2015.

But the bitterness of those that just call people that like other games "cult-like fanbase" its tiresome. As if Fanboys and Haters weren't to faces of the same coin, you know.

And in the Adepticons results, yeah. Thats a good slap of reality to those people that just, ignoring the state of the game, call that its the most unbalance thing on earth.

And before you say anything, no, AoS its not the best game in the world, not the most balanced. But are we talking of GW or not? You can't create a silk purse from a pig's ear.

If GW can make 40k achieve the level of balance that exist in AoS, without nuking his system and making it AoS 2.0, I'll be the first to clap and jump to play it again. But first of all I'm a narrative player, and to me the good Imperium of Old with the degradation of everything its gone with the Guilliman New-Age, but at least the galaxy its still here.

Maybe in your quarter of the world, most people didn't like the bloated rules, haven't seen anyone who disliked old world setting yet, it was so diverse and a faction for everybody.
I don't mind the whole overhauling of the rules in 40K but if they do an AOS there will be a bigger backlash, most people got in to the game because of the setting.
Not because of the rules there have always been better rulesets out there.

Bravo on missing the whole point of the discussion, We are talking of an AoS-ification OF THE RULES. The setting is going anywhere, and they've been telling us so (and the narrative supports it) for 3 months.

 Lord Xcapobl wrote:

morgoth wrote:

It's called pinning.

I know. Pinning... Which doesn't do Jack-All for the amount of shots somebody can sometimes make, which in my opinion should cause pinning in the first place. 60+ shots from a gun line, and no pinning because the weapons do not cause such. A suppression mechanic could, would, and should factor in volume of fire.

I like to see a rule that you can choose to shoot and pin a unit but forgo dealing wounds. Would be something neat. Would it work in 40k? IDK would need to test it.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Nobody liked (Okay, some yes, but those are of rare kind) the death of the old world. Nobody wanted it.

Spoiler:

But some of us stop crying his death, because in the end its a fictional game, and all things come to an end, even if you can still play it (Just as I do every week) or read his lore.
When my grandfather died, my grandmother spend the next 15 years wearing all black and mourning his death. The End Times finished in 2015.

But the bitterness of those that just call people that like other games "cult-like fanbase" its tiresome. As if Fanboys and Haters weren't to faces of the same coin, you know.

And in the Adepticons results, yeah. Thats a good slap of reality to those people that just, ignoring the state of the game, call that its the most unbalance thing on earth.

And before you say anything, no, AoS its not the best game in the world, not the most balanced. But are we talking of GW or not? You can't create a silk purse from a pig's ear.

If GW can make 40k achieve the level of balance that exist in AoS, without nuking his system and making it AoS 2.0, I'll be the first to clap and jump to play it again. But first of all I'm a narrative player, and to me the good Imperium of Old with the degradation of everything its gone with the Guilliman New-Age, but at least the galaxy its still here.

Maybe in your quarter of the world, most people didn't like the bloated rules, haven't seen anyone who disliked old world setting yet, it was so diverse and a faction for everybody.
I don't mind the whole overhauling of the rules in 40K but if they do an AOS there will be a bigger backlash, most people got in to the game because of the setting.
Not because of the rules there have always been better rulesets out there.

You're absolutely right. The primary thing that keeps 40k alive for me is the setting, not the rules. The rules are bloated af. Simply replace them with the rules of AoS, I'm happy.
I never cared about the setting of WHFB, nor do I care about the setting of AoS. I just never read it, it's fantasy and that's all I need to know. I can understand that people dislike the change, though. I wouldn't appreciate it if they threw away the entire 40k universe and replaced it with something entirely different - even if the rules were much better. I'd still play it, but I'd also probably just refuse to go with the new background/lore.

After all it's you who decides to play a story/narrative driven game, and where that happens setting-wise. It's just the same as with RPGs. I never moved on from 3.5ED Forgotten Realms since I just plain hate 4ED Forgotten Realms. I can still use the 4ED or 5ED rules and play in the 3.5ED world.

Another thing about nuking the setting is the novels. I like Warhammer Old world novels (though not as much as 40K), now there won't be any more. Instead there will be novels about steam dwarves and shoulderpad angels in a setting which vaguely reminds me of the Magic 'Verse. Could I learn to love it? Maybe, but I'm not going to try.

40K is awesome because of the modeling above all. You see that in contrast with games like Warmachine where you don't get to make up your own characters or groups, conversion is frowned upon, and terrain isn't much of a thing (at least around here). It is a better GAME than 40k hands down, but it is nowhere near as good a modeling experience. It will be a shame if they lose that - GW is already trying to get away from the wonder days of Dave wass'name and the scratch build/counts as armies that got me into it.

 kestral wrote:
Another thing about nuking the setting is the novels. I like Warhammer Old world novels (though not as much as 40K), now there won't be any more. Instead there will be novels about steam dwarves and shoulderpad angels in a setting which vaguely reminds me of the Magic 'Verse. Could I learn to love it? Maybe, but I'm not going to try.

I loved the Gortex and Felix novels.. that were leading up to a massive Chaos incursion... but then they changed Author and that kinda went no where

There is no inherent reason why BL couldn't set novels in the Old World if the demand were there. I mean it's still officially in the past of AoS, right? So if Horus Heresy fiction is OK...

 kestral wrote:
40K is awesome because of the modeling above all. You see that in contrast with games like Warmachine where you don't get to make up your own characters or groups, conversion is frowned upon, and terrain isn't much of a thing (at least around here). It is a better GAME than 40k hands down, but it is nowhere near as good a modeling experience. It will be a shame if they lose that - GW is already trying to get away from the wonder days of Dave wass'name and the scratch build/counts as armies that got me into it.

Indeed! You don't even NEED MODELS in Warmahordes, since the rules for model size and presence are all determined by its base size. Terrain pieces are just cutouts set on the table. And conversions are shunned in a big way. (And I'm pretty sure that, up until Mk III, custom army color schemes were frowned upon, at least in my local area.) And I know how everyone goes on about how excellent the game is, but I find it to be just as cumbersome as 40K, in as much as I have to find in the rulebook how something works every other turn on the game, plus I find the players (in my area) to be rather snobbish and elitist about being PP gamers.

Each wargame has 3 components: the Game, the Fluff & Setting, and the Models. Warmahordes is a decent game with a decent setting and fine models. 40K is an awesome setting with amazing models but a bloated game. AoS is doing great in the models, decent in the gameplay, and is establishing its setting and fluff.

If you could only have your wargame be good in just 2 of those 3 components, which would you choose?

I don't think it will be as bad as fantasy, the largest part of that was for copyright protection.

 BunkhouseBuster wrote:

 kestral wrote:
40K is awesome because of the modeling above all. You see that in contrast with games like Warmachine where you don't get to make up your own characters or groups, conversion is frowned upon, and terrain isn't much of a thing (at least around here). It is a better GAME than 40k hands down, but it is nowhere near as good a modeling experience. It will be a shame if they lose that - GW is already trying to get away from the wonder days of Dave wass'name and the scratch build/counts as armies that got me into it.

Indeed! You don't even NEED MODELS in Warmahordes, since the rules for model size and presence are all determined by its base size. Terrain pieces are just cutouts set on the table. And conversions are shunned in a big way. (And I'm pretty sure that, up until Mk III, custom army color schemes were frowned upon, at least in my local area.) And I know how everyone goes on about how excellent the game is, but I find it to be just as cumbersome as 40K, in as much as I have to find in the rulebook how something works every other turn on the game, plus I find the players (in my area) to be rather snobbish and elitist about being PP gamers.

Each wargame has 3 components: the Game, the Fluff & Setting, and the Models. Warmahordes is a decent game with a decent setting and fine models. 40K is an awesome setting with amazing models but a bloated game. AoS is doing great in the models, decent in the gameplay, and is establishing its setting and fluff.

If you could only have your wargame be good in just 2 of those 3 components, which would you choose?

Fluff and the models, the game can always be adapted to and rules always change, its a lot harder to do that to the fluff and models.

Personally really not a fan recent AoS releases. As of late, GW seems to be way over designing their models to the point of them just being grotesque.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kellymatthew37 wrote:
I don't think it will be as bad as fantasy, the largest part of that was for copyright protection.

Yeah, it wont take much to not be as bad as it. Simply, dont nuke the universe for reasons.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

kellymatthew37 wrote:
I don't think it will be as bad as fantasy, the largest part of that was for copyright protection.

Yeah, it wont take much to not be as bad as it. Simply, dont nuke the universe for reasons.

Well the reasons were probably very relevant.
Like having to waste the next 25 years of profit on IP lawyers plus trying to save the sinking ship.
Vs launching a new game and making money.

I'm happy the company that makes the game I love isn't dumb enough to shoot itself in the foot and die for reasons.

morgoth wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

kellymatthew37 wrote:
I don't think it will be as bad as fantasy, the largest part of that was for copyright protection.

Yeah, it wont take much to not be as bad as it. Simply, dont nuke the universe for reasons.

Well the reasons were probably very relevant.
Like having to waste the next 25 years of profit on IP lawyers plus trying to save the sinking ship.
Vs launching a new game and making money.

I'm happy the company that makes the game I love isn't dumb enough to shoot itself in the foot and die for reasons.

I would say the IP is not really a valid argument, because GW has changed the name of their factions or things in their games before for copy right reasons with out nukeing them. IE IG are now AM, and every thing is now adeptas astartes rather then space marines.

Which again there are plenty of ways that WHFB could have been saved rather then just lol chaos destroyed it all, like actually marketing it like they did at the end times. Because if you think about it, how much content for WHFB came out before the end times? Then look at the end times and look how many video games and marketing they were getting and how much that drew new people in.

But again we could argue until the cows came home about how WHFB could or could not have been saved, so its rather moot.

lol AOS fans are "cultists" now. Oh the internet never ceases to provide.

AOS is going on its second year now. Its cracked the top 4 of North America sales, overshadowing WHFB.

If you hate the AOS setting, simply play the game and pretend you're in the old world. no one can destroy a fictional setting that never existed in the first place.

40k having its rules brought down can only be a good thing. The rules today are horrible for 40k to a lot of people.

 BunkhouseBuster wrote:


Each wargame has 3 components: the Game, the Fluff & Setting, and the Models. Warmahordes is a decent game with a decent setting and fine models. 40K is an awesome setting with amazing models but a bloated game. AoS is doing great in the models, decent in the gameplay, and is establishing its setting and fluff.

If you could only have your wargame be good in just 2 of those 3 components, which would you choose?

Fluff and Game play. I can convert, find, jury rig and otherwise make the models work. They may not be quite as pretty, but they'll be mine. Fluff inspires me, game play keeps me interested and provides an outlet for competition.

 kestral wrote:
Another thing about nuking the setting is the novels. I like Warhammer Old world novels (though not as much as 40K), now there won't be any more. Instead there will be novels about steam dwarves and shoulderpad angels in a setting which vaguely reminds me of the Magic 'Verse. Could I learn to love it? Maybe, but I'm not going to try.

You should read City of Secrets. It's really good, and it broke down a lot of the preconceptions I had about the setting.

 auticus wrote:
lol AOS fans are "cultists" now. Oh the internet never ceases to provide.

AOS is going on its second year now. Its cracked the top 4 of North America sales, overshadowing WHFB.

It's overshadowing a game that no longer exists? Impressive. Top 4 isn't exactly phenomenal. X-Wing and 40k are the big hitters in wargaming with everything else waiting in line behind.

 auticus wrote:

If you hate the AOS setting, simply play the game and pretend you're in the old world. no one can destroy a fictional setting that never existed in the first place.

40k having its rules brought down can only be a good thing. The rules today are horrible for 40k to a lot of people.

Won't disagree about the 40k rules needing an overhaul but it misses the point somewhat to say "just play as if you're in the Old World" when there are people bringing Sigmarines and Fiery Dwarfs on dragons.

Simply put: If GW 'names' a unit, but doesn't also create (and sell) a model for that unit before another company does...the other company will 'own' the model, and GW will be in the position of "copying." Understandably, they want it the other way around.

 auticus wrote:

AOS is going on its second year now. Its cracked the top 4 of North America sales, overshadowing WHFB.

It would be interesting to know just how much money AoS has taken at the expense of 40k sales, as 40k players get disillusioned with the 40k rules and move to the only other GW game.
I know GW's profits are up, is this because 40k players buying into AoS are spending more to get started than they would have done on 40k additions to their army?

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 auticus wrote:

AOS is going on its second year now. Its cracked the top 4 of North America sales, overshadowing WHFB.

It would be interesting to know just how much money AoS has taken at the expense of 40k sales, as 40k players get disillusioned with the 40k rules and move to the only other GW game.
I know GW's profits are up, is this because 40k players buying into AoS are spending more to get started than they would have done on 40k additions to their army?

Which brings us to a pretty sterile debate on whether those players would have just swapped to another system, or maybe they didn't "need" to buy anything else. Dunno, let's drop the selling angle, unless we've got a crystal ball.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Nobody liked (Okay, some yes, but those are of rare kind) the death of the old world. Nobody wanted it.

Spoiler:

But some of us stop crying his death, because in the end its a fictional game, and all things come to an end, even if you can still play it (Just as I do every week) or read his lore.
When my grandfather died, my grandmother spend the next 15 years wearing all black and mourning his death. The End Times finished in 2015.

But the bitterness of those that just call people that like other games "cult-like fanbase" its tiresome. As if Fanboys and Haters weren't to faces of the same coin, you know.

And in the Adepticons results, yeah. Thats a good slap of reality to those people that just, ignoring the state of the game, call that its the most unbalance thing on earth.

And before you say anything, no, AoS its not the best game in the world, not the most balanced. But are we talking of GW or not? You can't create a silk purse from a pig's ear.

If GW can make 40k achieve the level of balance that exist in AoS, without nuking his system and making it AoS 2.0, I'll be the first to clap and jump to play it again. But first of all I'm a narrative player, and to me the good Imperium of Old with the degradation of everything its gone with the Guilliman New-Age, but at least the galaxy its still here.

Maybe in your quarter of the world, most people didn't like the bloated rules, haven't seen anyone who disliked old world setting yet, it was so diverse and a faction for everybody.
I don't mind the whole overhauling of the rules in 40K but if they do an AOS there will be a bigger backlash, most people got in to the game because of the setting.
Not because of the rules there have always been better rulesets out there.

Sorry, I think I don't understand your point or you don't understand mine. What I was saying its that nobody wanted and nobody liked the destruction of the Old World. I agree, I prefer the setting of the Old World that Age of Sigmar.

From a rules stand point I prefer more skirmish games that rank and file games, but I agree too, that the problem with WHFB its that the system changes from a thing to a other totally different.

My point was not that "GW needed to kill WHFB and that AoS its the best thing ever", my point its:
Nobody liked the destruction of the old world, but has been done, so you can be bitter and aggresive and be hostile during years, or you can accept it.

And no, this its not a "fanboy" wanting to people to stop critizisin AoS. AoS has many flaws, his launch was terrible, and all of that can be and should be criticised with arguments, because we have all to remember that if we let GW think that they are just in a safe spot, they can go back to the Kirby Era.

But the people that just want to hate AoS without a constructive discusion, and even worse, just insult and attack the people that play and like that game, its tiresome at this point.

EDIT: The "economical sucess" to me its a sterile debate, first:
-We don't have numbers. We just don't have them, its all speculation and subjetive lists with no hard data.
-The "My game make more money!" don't go anywhere.

 auticus wrote:

AOS is going on its second year now. Its cracked the top 4 of North America sales, overshadowing WHFB.

And on a side note AoS has recieved actual support within the last decade, and does not have a 400+ model count requirement, courtesy of Kirby.

@ Gimgamgoo

I think the start collecting boxes might be responsible for a lot of the increased profits, but I'm also certain that AoS has played a big part in it too. I can assure you that I'll be spending a hell of a lot on it next month. A lot.

I've currently given up on 40k and went full AoS, for a variety of reasons. But if 40k follows AoS's lead I'll be back to it with gusto.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 auticus wrote:

AOS is going on its second year now. Its cracked the top 4 of North America sales, overshadowing WHFB.

And on a side note AoS has recieved actual support within the last decade, and does not have a 400+ model count requirement, courtesy of Kirby.

Thats the thing that makes me more sad about this. Have Roundtree become CEO 5 years early, and maybe the Old World still exist within us, with a lower model count, skirmish rulesets (Encouraged by the company, I know Fantasy has skirmish rules like Mordheim or Patrols), etc...