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Martel732 wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
Ahh third, back when Rhinos were space marine skateboards. The rhino rush did happen, it just happened with blood angels and their turbo boosted rhinos. I still have an irrational dislike of blood angels from that time, even though disliking them now is like picking on the fat kid in dodgeball. Maybe 8th will be kinder to the once fearsome chapter who have fallen on hard times due to crap rules.

Now we need a fat blood angel model holding a dodge ball...

"If you can dodge a Rhino, you can dodge a ball!"

I really should be welcoming the change, as the BA have realistically nowhere to go but up. My current lists that manage to squeak out some wins are so unsatisfying in terms of how BA are supposed to work. But I'm so mortified of GW's attempts at, well, anything.

Best I could do, seems Col Sanders has the hungry marines:

Haha!

I really hope they keep the to-hit and to-wound tables. Because the AoS system sucks.

nordsturmking wrote:
I really hope they keep the to-hit and to-wound tables. Because the AoS system sucks.

Why does it suck?

 Future War Cultist wrote:

nordsturmking wrote:
I really hope they keep the to-hit and to-wound tables. Because the AoS system sucks.

Why does it suck?

Because an Ork Grot having a set 5+ to wound seems silly against something like a WK, which it currently cannot wound. The variation of hitting and wounding is part of the whole fun of 40K. A Space Marine shouldn't hit EVERYTHING on a 4+. Some things should be harder or easier to hit/wound

-

In the AoS system a unit hits everything on a 3+ for example. So a bloodthirster not harder to hit for this unit than a goblin. That doesn't represent the different skill levels these to have in CC.

EDIT: ^^ i was tipping to slow. Galef ninjaed me

 Galef wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:

nordsturmking wrote:
I really hope they keep the to-hit and to-wound tables. Because the AoS system sucks.

Why does it suck?

Because an Ork Grot having a set 5+ to wound seems silly against something like a WK, which it currently cannot wound. The variation of hitting and wounding is part of the whole fun of 40K. A Space Marine shouldn't hit EVERYTHING on a 4+. Some things should be harder or easier to hit/wound

-

Which is why a) wounds count vary between games (yeah, you did one wound with 12 attacks, try chewing the other 15+) and b) there exists negative modifiers to those rolls, treelords can impose -1 to hit rolls. Driads too. Etc. Etc.

What Lord Kragan said. Seriously, when your attacks have no rend and the target has a 3+ save with rerolls and 6-12 wounds, you will struggle to hurt them.

Indeed and that's not taking in the buffs(and healing) other units will be giving to those powerhouses.

Baron Klatz wrote:
Indeed and that's not taking in the buffs(and healing) other units will be giving to those powerhouses.

Absolutely. Now in my last game my lowly Bloodreaver Chieftain managed to kill a Lord Celestant on a Dracoth. But this was only after the Lord had been severely wounded by a Slaughterpriest's prayer. And before he was killed he still found the time to slaughter an entire unit of Blood Warriors and about 90% of the Chieftain's unit almost single handedly. The Blood Warriors in return only inflicted a single wound on him, and the Reavers were doing nothing to him until that lucky hit finished him off.

So a flat to hit and wound system can produce some odd results but honestly the game can work just fine with it.

Both fixed to hit and to wound rolls and tables with values are totally valid systems to achieve the same goal.

The trick its if those systems are executed with a good quality writing.

But I don't think one or the other is so important in the feeling of a game. 40k can still be 40k without charts and AoS can still be AoS without fixed rolls.

But as 40k uses charts, and those can totally work, even liking the fixed system of AoS, I think that the charts should remain here. Basically because I want 40k to be a good game, not AoS 2.0. To play AoS, I have AoS.


Both systems allow me to have snotlings and goblins or "squad champions" killing all-mighty heroes in those epic moments and epic rolls, so I'm fine with that.

I also think people should stop looking at Shadow War as an indication for 8th Ed... Shadow War was based of Necromunda a 2nd Ed game. This doesn't mean that it is going back that way.. (that being said 2nd ed, Best ed)

 Future War Cultist wrote:
What Lord Kragan said. Seriously, when your attacks have no rend and the target has a 3+ save with rerolls and 6-12 wounds, you will struggle to hurt them.

And there can be Special Rules which subtract from the Wound Roll or negate a certain number of Wounds in an Attack/Round/etc. It can be workable, if one is willing to try it out.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

Baron Klatz wrote:
Indeed and that's not taking in the buffs(and healing) other units will be giving to those powerhouses.

Absolutely. Now in my last game my lowly Bloodreaver Chieftain managed to kill a Lord Celestant on a Dracoth. But this was only after the Lord had been severely wounded by a Slaughterpriest's prayer. And before he was killed he still found the time to slaughter an entire unit of Blood Warriors and about 90% of the Chieftain's unit almost single handedly. The Blood Warriors in return only inflicted a single wound on him, and the Reavers were doing nothing to him until that lucky hit finished him off.

So a flat to hit and wound system can produce some odd results but honestly the game can work just fine with it.

Yup, but as Galas pointed, and we should remember: it doesn't "need to". 40k should stay its own thing and maintain the essential core mechanics while removing the bloat and the poorly thought out stuff. T/S ain't bad per se, it's stuff like grav and d weapons.

Insectum7 wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
Ahh third, back when Rhinos were space marine skateboards. The rhino rush did happen, it just happened with blood angels and their turbo boosted rhinos. I still have an irrational dislike of blood angels from that time . . .

Haha! same. Now there were some real first-turn-charge shenanigans.

 Just Tony wrote:

I always get annoyed at the Rhino Rush being brought up because Eldar Falcon/Wave Serpent rush was much worse. That, and as long as you weren't exactly 18" away on turn 1, the rush couldn't possibly make it towards you.

Generic marines weren't the problem, the problem was Blood angels with a potential to move D6 towards the enemy at turn start, then move 18" with the overcharged engine, then dismount 2" then charge 6 for up to 32" of charge distance. In a game where you had to stand still to Rapid-Fire.

So essentially if they had nerved that BA codex or removed it entirely, the problem would have been fixed...






..until you got Black Templars with CCW falling forwards when failing LD checks.

nordsturmking wrote:
I really hope they keep the to-hit and to-wound tables. Because the AoS system sucks.

I'd be ok with either tables or sensible modifiers like bolt action. The way AoS does it is horrendously boring, and requires layers and layers of more pointless dice rolling and special rules to achieve something that should be part of the basic rules. If they're going to use fixed values at least get rid of one of them so you waste less time rolling dice over and over.

The amount of dice you roll in AOS is the same as what you roll in whfb or 40k.

You roll to hit. You roll to wound. Other person rolls a save.

I personally don't care either way they do it. So long as more things in the game are viable again and garbage like free points (excessive summoning) and free formations go away and list building / hard countering is brought down a couple pegs.

 auticus wrote:
The amount of dice you roll in AOS is the same as what you roll in whfb or 40k.

You roll to hit. You roll to wound. Other person rolls a save.

I personally don't care either way they do it. So long as more things in the game are viable again and garbage like free points (excessive summoning) and free formations go away and list building / hard countering is brought down a couple pegs.

That is true for what happened in AoS. Beastmen actually became worth bringing and a lot of the monsters that you wouldn't think to bring because of price:survivability ratio completely changed.

Exactly. Min/max listbuilding is still a thing but the game opened up quite a bit when everything could hurt everything.

As it stands now, you might as well remove a giant chunk of 40k out and delete it because you'll never see it on tables since someone can just hard counter it and make it so that army cannot hurt the other side.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I hope they get rid of the ability to move multiple times in a turn. Along with killing the movement stat, removing safe modifiers and the cover system, making models move more than once a turn is another of my pet hates from 2nd -> 3rd.

? That is why you had overwatch, great for area denial and with space marines the -1 to Bs wasn't a big issue

I very much hope that 40k gets AOS'ed.

Seeing the look on an Eldar player's face when I gun down his wraithknight with boltguns would be...priceless.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
What Lord Kragan said. Seriously, when your attacks have no rend and the target has a 3+ save with rerolls and 6-12 wounds, you will struggle to hurt them.

I can send Gutrot Spume into just about any unit and fully expect him to never die. The guy is a freaking wall. There are plenty of units out there who will never be able to deal with him (although he is primarily a hero killer, for what that's worth).

The other thing about the 'fixed rolls, higher wound count' method of combat resolution is that damage becomes more granular. You're less likely to end up with bad rolls resulting in an entirely worthless round of combat, and you're relying less on RNG extremes to greatly change the outcome of combat (ie, you rarely are relying on landing a six just to get a wound).

I'm a fan of having units across the board be more useful as a general rule.

I want my tactical marines, scouts, and my imperial guardsmen to all at least be able to threaten more than your basic infantry stuff.

Guess we shall see what we shall see in the coming weeks and months. I'm really digging the new Shadow Wars rules leaks and can't wait to get my hands on them and try it out. I already have several force ideas for my Blood Angels, My Vostroyans, and Harlequins.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

dosiere wrote:

nordsturmking wrote:
I really hope they keep the to-hit and to-wound tables. Because the AoS system sucks.

I'd be ok with either tables or sensible modifiers like bolt action. The way AoS does it is horrendously boring, and requires layers and layers of more pointless dice rolling and special rules to achieve something that should be part of the basic rules. If they're going to use fixed values at least get rid of one of them so you waste less time rolling dice over and over.

See this is what people who don't understand how AoS, or just yunno...math in general, think about this. The AoS system works functionally the same as the 40k system only better, smoother, and in a way that make the game scale linearly rather than the quadratic issues that pop up in 40k.

 Traditio wrote:
I very much hope that 40k gets AOS'ed.

Seeing the look on an Eldar player's face when I gun down his wraithknight with boltguns would be...priceless.

I was looking forward to these changes but if Tradito wants them then it's a sign that this is a bad idea.

I think Tradito's just picturing the wraithknight standing still while he rolls a bucket of dice.

It was the same thing with early AoS arguments that it was a bad thing that a goblin can slay a dragon. No one really pictured the dragon fighting back and ripping apart entire units while hardly being hurt in those arguments, though.

I really don't care what happens to 40k. I play 30k, so Im probably safe (for now), seeing as Inferno just came out.

Another benefit of having every model being at least theoretically capable of killing every other one is that spam armies aren't nearly as dominant.

As things are now, spam armies can invalidate the viability of most of a take-all-corners list. If someone's running all armour, and only a third of your army is dedicated for anti armour, then that means two thirds of your army is functionally irrelevant, a waste of points.

In AoS, even if you haven't brought an army of dedicated hard counters, you can still manage to play around with what you've got and mount some form of offensive threat.