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At the very end. You see it is very important Col, that you look at the actual rules in question, it has these curious words...

I think it says...

(See Codex: Space Marines)

My word! How did that get there?

Oh no, I really hope the Codex it refers too doesn't explicitly tell us that we must be wearing terminator armor to buy from the terminator war gear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well what do you know?

Page 196 of the SM Codex.


Terminator Weapons:
A model wearing Terminator Armor may replace....

 MattKing wrote:
You have an excellent name sir.

As do you

Ceann wrote:
At the very end. You see it is very important Col, that you look at the actual rules in question, it has these curious words...

I think it says...

(See Codex: Space Marines)

My word! How did that get there?

Oh no, I really hope the Codex it refers too doesn't explicitly tell us that we must be wearing terminator armor to buy from the terminator war gear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well what do you know?

Page 196 of the SM Codex.


Terminator Weapons:
A model wearing Terminator Armor may replace....

Cool. So the Terminator Captain in the Angel of Death supplement "may take items in the Terminator Weapons [list]", yes or no?

(See Codex: Space Marines)

It explicitly refers you to the other Codex, so you follow the rules for that Codex.

Ceann wrote:
(See Codex: Space Marines)

It explicitly refers you to the other Codex, so you follow the rules for that Codex.

Not in contention.


So the Terminator Captain in the Angel of Death supplement "may take items in the Terminator Weapons [list]", yes or no?

It may take any item from the list, following the usual restrictions. Nothing in the text indicates that it bypasses restrictions.

 JNAProductions wrote:
It may take any item from the list, following the usual restrictions. Nothing in the text indicates that it bypasses restrictions.

The specific permission granted to the model states that captain may take items from the list. A more general rule that prevents it from taking any item from the list is in direct conflict with that specific permission, correct?

Then why is an Iron Priest any different?

 JNAProductions wrote:
Then why is an Iron Priest any different?

That is an example of a case that is NOT in direct conflict. The Iron Priest is able to take meltabombs and digital weapons and/or a bike and therewith satisfy being able to take items.

It's only if the Iron Priest could not take any items from the Special Wargear list would there be a case of direct conflict.

Terminator Captain in the Angel of Death supplement "may take items in the Terminator Weapons [list]", yes or no?

Yes.

However you seem to be forgetting that Terminator armor is a piece of wargear,

Terminator weapons states a model WEARING "Terminator Armor"

If you choose to take the other armor you are REPLACING "Terminator Armor" if you are not wearing that wargear because you replaced it, you are not permitted to take items.

Now if we agree that it is "Terminator Armor" and he is wearing it, then he cannot ride a bike or take a jetpack.
It also says MAY, MAY means it is a possibility, an option, it does not say CAN take, or MUST take, it says MAY.
"May" asserts that there is a stipulation, as with every other case of "May".

Ceann wrote:
Terminator Captain in the Angel of Death supplement "may take items in the Terminator Weapons [list]", yes or no?

Yes.

However you seem to be forgetting that Terminator armor is a piece of wargear,

Terminator weapons states a model WEARING "Terminator Armor"

If you choose to take the other armor you are REPLACING "Terminator Armor" if you no wear that wargear because you replaced it, you are not permitted to take items.

Now if we agree that it is "Terminator Armor" and he is wearing it, then he cannot ride a bike or take a jetpack.

The Terminator Captain has the permission to take items from the Terminator Weapons list, irrespective of whether or not he is in Terminator armour or Cataphractii armour.



That permission granted to the specific captain model overrides any directly conflicting general restriction, such as "wearing Terminator armour"

Cataphractii armour does not count as terminator armour for all purposes, only some.



Those purposes doe not include Special Wargear selection, so the Cataphractii captain can choose a bike.

No, the exact line tells you to refer to the Codex: Space Marine
So is he wearing Terminator Armor? Yes/No.

Ceann wrote:
No, the exact line tells you to refer to the Codex: Space Marine

Not in contention.

Ceann wrote:

So is he wearing Terminator Armor? Yes/No.

The rules indicate he is not wearing terminator armour. He is wearing Cataphractii armour that only counts as terminator armour for certain purposes.

There are two criteria.

Space Marine Bike "footnote 3"
May not be taken by models wearing Terminator Armor.

Terminator Weapons:
A model wearing Terminator Armor may replace...

The purposes you listed does not include purchasing wear gear.

Ceann wrote:
There are two criteria.

Space Marine Bike "footnote 3"
May not be taken by models wearing Terminator Armor.

The captain is in Cataphractii armour which does not count as terminator armour for the purpose of Special Issue Wargear so he may purchase a bike no problem.

Ceann wrote:
Terminator Weapons:
A model wearing Terminator Armor may replace...

The purposes you listed does not include purchasing wear gear.

The captain model has specific permission to take items from the Terminator Weapons list



That permission granted to the specific captain model overrides the general descriptive text "wearing Terminator Armor" that is in direct conflict with that specific permission.

Luckily for us, it says "See Codex: Space Marines"

Also luckily for us, Codex: Space Marines is not a basic rule.

So there is no contradiction, it DEFERS to the Codex: Space Marines by telling us to consult those rules. In fact the entire page for the Terminator Captain essentially has "See Codex: Space Marines" rubber stamped all over it. All the war gear, tactics etc all contain the same direction.

Ceann wrote:
Luckily for us, it says "See Codex: Space Marines"

Also luckily for us, Codex: Space Marines is not a basic rule.

So there is no contradiction, it DEFERS to the Codex: Space Marines by telling us to consult those rules.

The captain model has specific permission to take items from the Terminator Weapons list.

The permission granted to the specific captain model overrides the general descriptive text "wearing Terminator Armor" that is in direct conflict with that specific permission.

There is no rule that says that.
Advanced rules dictate that a codex takes precedence, the entry in the supplement book directs us to the codex.

I would like know how a basic option on a basic unit supercedes the wargear restrictions. Clearly the wargear list has extra restrictions and thus could be ruled as more advanced rule.

Imho wargear rules are more advanced rules as they are applied after getting the unit. It is hopefully clear to everyone that unit needs to be bought before getting wargear. So in this manner clearly in the order of list building ( has gw given any other orders?) the wargear specific rules and restrictions are more advanced than the basic unit options.

Ceann wrote:
There is no rule that says that.
Advanced rules dictate that a codex takes precedence, the entry in the supplement book directs us to the codex.

No rule needs to say it. In logic, specific overrides general.

Drivers may not go over the speed limit.

Ambulance drivers may go over the speed limit.

The Ambulance driver can go over the speed limit even though that contradicts the general restriction to drivers. The ambulance driver has a more specific permission than the general restriction.


The captain model is specifically given permission to take items from the Terminator Weapons list. That overrides the general statement "a model wearing terminator armor".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ghorgul wrote:
I would like know how a basic option on a basic unit supercedes the wargear restrictions. Clearly the wargear list has extra restrictions and thus could be ruled as more advanced rule.

Imho wargear rules are more advanced rules as they are applied after getting the unit. It is hopefully clear to everyone that unit needs to be bought before getting wargear. So in this manner clearly in the order of list building ( has gw given any other orders?) the wargear specific rules and restrictions are more advanced than the basic unit options.

The specific model is given the permission to take items from the Terminator Weapons list. That specific permission overrides any general restriction that a model not wearing Terminator armour cannot. The rules have specifically indicated that that particular captain model can indeed take items from the Terminator Weapon list.

See Codex: Space Marines

Sounds rather specific to me.

But... that doesn't let him have his cake and eat it. So it's obviously wrong.

Ceann wrote:
See Codex: Space Marines

Sounds rather specific to me.

That is the opposite of specific.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
But... that doesn't let him have his cake and eat it. So it's obviously wrong.

I don't play Space Marines. Personally I would rather a Terminator captain wearing Cataphractii armour could not hop on a bike and swing a power fist.

However, my personal feelings do not count in a principled discussion of rules.

I am honest with what the rules are actually saying.

1) Cataphractii armour is not terminator armour

2) The captain model has specific permission to take items from the Terminator Weapons list.

No, he does not have specific permission to WEAR it, he has permission to ACCESS that gear, He MAY, not CAN, not MUST, he MAY, it is then followed by directions on where to look at the war gear. The criteria states that he must be wearing terminator armor to use said wargear.

If he is wearing terminator armor, then he may purchase those items. The entry you reference for the unit refers to the entry of the codex, it is directing you to the rules.

At this point in order to purchase those items he MUST be wearing terminator armor, if he is wearing terminator armor then he cannot ride a bike.

If there was any truth to your statement that you were "just honestly following the rules" the same train of thought you are putting forth applies to relics also, if we can ignore the prerequisite text for a grouping of wargear, then clearly he can take as many relics as he wishes also instead of just one.

If you are asserting that, then you are asserting that this same exact line of text "may take from X" that is on nearly every single SM character in existence may also ignore the prerequisites of relics and take as many as they want as well.

Is that what you are saying?

Ghorgul wrote:
I would like know how a basic option on a basic unit supercedes the wargear restrictions. Clearly the wargear list has extra restrictions and thus could be ruled as more advanced rule.

Imho wargear rules are more advanced rules as they are applied after getting the unit. It is hopefully clear to everyone that unit needs to be bought before getting wargear. So in this manner clearly in the order of list building ( has gw given any other orders?) the wargear specific rules and restrictions are more advanced than the basic unit options.

Actually codices and supplements are equally "advanced" with neither having clear primacy over the other.

-------------------------------------------------

BTW, if we are able to ignore restrictions in the Wargear List, then Codex Tacticals, Devastators and Crusaders can take Heavy Flamers! Not to mention we can ignore the restrictions listed for Terminators to be on Bikes and take Jump Packs, or any combination! So, have fun with your Librarian riding a Bike in Terminator Armor with a Jump Pack.

As if anyone would seriously allow that to happen that had any grasp of basic English, context, and grammar.

But then, almost anything's possible in Col_ignored's esoteric grammar dictionary.

Ceann wrote:
No, he does not have specific permission to WEAR it, he has permission to ACCESS that gear, He MAY, not CAN, not MUST, he MAY, it is then followed by directions on where to look at the war gear. The criteria states that he must be wearing terminator armor to use said wargear.

If he is wearing terminator armor, then he may purchase those items. The entry you reference for the unit refers to the entry of the codex, it is directing you to the rules.

At this point in order to purchase those items he MUST be wearing terminator armor, if he is wearing terminator armor then he cannot ride a bike.

If there was any truth to your statement that you were "just honestly following the rules" the same train of thought you are putting forth applies to relics also, if we can ignore the prerequisite text for a grouping of wargear, then clearly he can take as many relics as he wishes also instead of just one.

If you are asserting that, then you are asserting that this same exact line of text "may take from X" that is on nearly every single SM character in existence may also ignore the prerequisites of relics and take as many as they want as well.

Is that what you are saying?

Don't straw man my argument.

The captain model is given specific permission to take items from the Terminator list. That permission supersedes any more general statement that would say he may not take items from the Terminator weapons list.

Specific > general.


In logic, specific overrides general.

1) Drivers may not go over the speed limit.

2) Ambulance drivers may go over the speed limit.

The Ambulance driver can go over the speed limit even though that contradicts the general restriction to drivers. The ambulance driver has a more specific permission than the general restriction.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charistoph wrote:


BTW, if we are able to ignore restrictions in the Wargear List, then Codex Tacticals, Devastators and Crusaders can take Heavy Flamers! Not to mention we can ignore the restrictions listed for Terminators to be on Bikes and take Jump Packs, or any combination! So, have fun with your Librarian riding a Bike in Terminator Armor with a Jump Pack.

As if anyone would seriously allow that to happen that had any grasp of basic English, context, and grammar.

But then, almost anything's possible in Col_ignored's esoteric grammar dictionary.

That is not what is being discussed at all. Nobody is saying to ignore the restrictions in the Wargear list. Why do you even bother chiming in on discussions about my arguments when you refuse to actually read my arguments first hand?

col_impact wrote:


No rule needs to say it. In logic, specific overrides general.

The captain model is specifically given permission to take items from the Terminator Weapons list. That overrides the general statement "a model wearing terminator armor".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ghorgul wrote:
I would like know how a basic option on a basic unit supercedes the wargear restrictions. Clearly the wargear list has extra restrictions and thus could be ruled as more advanced rule.

Imho wargear rules are more advanced rules as they are applied after getting the unit. It is hopefully clear to everyone that unit needs to be bought before getting wargear. So in this manner clearly in the order of list building ( has gw given any other orders?) the wargear specific rules and restrictions are more advanced than the basic unit options.

The specific model is given the permission to take items from the Terminator Weapons list. That specific permission overrides any general restriction that a model not wearing Terminator armour cannot. The rules have specifically indicated that that particular captain model can indeed take items from the Terminator Weapon list.

Specific model is given a general permission to take items from the Terminator Weapons list. The general permission does not override any specific restrictions in Terminator Weapons list. The rules have only generally indicated that this particular captain model can take items from the the Terminator Weapons list and thus dont override specific restrictions.

You are, by your own choosing, setting rules and restrictions in order of superiority, or order of advanced rule. I provided earlier arguments, why I consider wargear restrictions to be more advanced rule. You did not provide structured arguments or GW faq quotes on this matter. You just state an opinion that one permission supercedes a restriction based on your own choice.

Ghorgul wrote:


Specific model is given a general permission to take items from the Terminator Weapons list. The general permission does not override any specific restrictions in Terminator Weapons list. The rules have only generally indicated that this particular captain model can take items from the the Terminator Weapons list and thus dont override specific restrictions.

You are, by your own choosing, setting rules and restrictions in order of superiority, or order of advanced rule. I provided earlier arguments, why I consider wargear restrictions to be more advanced rule. You did not provide structured arguments or GW faq quotes on this matter. You just state an opinion that one permission supercedes a restriction based on your own choice.

Which is the more specific statement?

1) The Terminator Captain model may take items from the Terminator Weapons list.

2) A model wearing terminator armour may . . .

How am i straw manning your argument, are you daft?

Terminator Weapons, Special Wargear and Relics are ALL UNDER THE SAME SENTENCE.

You assert that the "may take" part on the front of said sentence, permits Terminator weapons to be taken regardless of the prerequisite text under said Terminator weapons.
That must obvioulsy apply to relics as well, they have a prerequisite text that states you can only take one of them, we can ignore that also right?
And as nearly every single SM captain and librarian has the same line of text you are referencing then this must apply to all of them.

It sounds like you are saying your own argument fails.

Good thing the end of the sentence states "see Codex: Space Marines" which clearly has all the valid rules for the wargear it is referencing.

Ceann wrote:
How am i straw manning your argument, are you daft?

Terminator Weapons, Special Wargear and Relics are ALL UNDER THE SAME SENTENCE.

You assert that the "may take" part on the front of said sentence, permits Terminator weapons to be taken regardless of the prerequisite text under said Terminator weapons.
That must obvioulsy apply to relics as well, they have a prerequisite text that states you can only take one of them, we can ignore that also right?

Is the relic text in direct conflict with the permission granted elsewhere? No.

That is why you are strawmanning my argument. I am presenting a case of direct conflict. There is a specific permission and a more general restriction that are in direct conflict. The specific permission only overrides exactly what it is in direct conflict with in the general statement in order for the more specific permission to be true. That enables the ambulance driver to drive above the speed limit when drivers are not allowed to drive above the speed limit.

Specific > general