Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Col, you're trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Either the Cataphractii captain is not in Terminator armour, in which case they may select non-Terminator wargear, or they are, and can select Terminator wargear.

Not both.

Personally I would rather the Cataphractii Captain could not take a power fist. I put my personal feelings aside however.

In this discussion I am concerned with what the rules say.

In this case specific permission is given to the Terminator Captain to take items from the Terminator Weapons list. Now unless that rule is lying to us we have to adhere to it. And as we know specific rule statements override general rule statements.

Ceann wrote:
Ahhhh I got it.
He IDENTIFY'S as wearing terminator armor.

Can we, uh, not go there? Both being related to trans people and having paid a bit of attention to the scientific side of things, there's a pretty big difference between the biological stuff involved in that and the psychology of someone who's misinterpreting something to have his cake and eat it.

Ceann wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:
Wrong again.

The phrasing used for this guy is the exact same phrasing is used for all SM units that have the option of terminator armor.

So you see no difference between these two lines?

Spoiler:

Options:
May take items from the Terminator Weapons [list]

Spoiler:

A Captain or Chapter Master in Terminator armour may only take items from the
Terminator Weapons [list]

No, no difference.

Why no difference? Because he is already wearing terminator armor, hence it doesn't need to be stated.
You keep forgetting the last part I'll remind you again.
See codex space marines.

There is an obvious difference. Failure to acknowledge the obvious casts doubt on anything you post.

No functional difference. They might as well read the same.

In addition... Col, I would NOT go there. Failure to acknowledge the obvious is something you do. A lot.

col_impact wrote:


Permissions granted to one specific model in a codex Army List Entry is much more specific than descriptive text vaguely applying a general restriction to any model that gets directed to that list.

In other words, there is no mention of the Terminator Captain in the Terminator Weapons list so it cannot be more specific than the permission granted from the Army List Entry for the Terminator Captain.

That is an opinion. Not an argument. You do not explain why it should be more specific rule. I argued that wargear restrictions are more specific, this is because they are applied or checked after making unit entry selection. You will move to them only after making unit entry selection. I think we can both agree that you need to choose the Army List Entry before you can make any wargear selections. I argued earlier, and I argue now once again that wargear restrictions are more advanced rules, and thus more specific, because as rules they are applied after Army List Entry permissions.
I urge you once again to counter my argument on this matter.

You keep on saying that one rule is more specific than the another, with only reasoning behind being your own opinion.

History, as you brought up, is out of question, as rules clearly are applied in the order they are read or applied. Like you would read a paragraph, one sentence at a time.

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:


You assert that TAKE gives precedence over restrictions, so they may also take as many relics as they wish.

You may take a jump pack and two bikes if you want, he can take take take anything he wants.

Incorrect. I have never said this. Quit strawmanning.

The only restrictions that are removed are those that are in direct conflict with the specific permission granted to the Terminator Captain.


Continuing to strawman me after repeated corrections makes your argument look weak.

After repeated corrections... you have corrected nothing. And you are right you never did say that, you asserted it, which is why I said asserted, if you need to understand the word I'm sure Merriam Webster can help you.

It says see codex space marines. You concluded that "may take items from" ignores prerequisites, when I try to apply your statement to the rest of the sentence you call your own argument a strawman. You cannot even properly formulate a logical deduction, notice how you stopped trying to use them when I pointed it out. You pick two or three words and then pursue semantic acrobatics in a simplistic and obvious manner. You fabricate an argument from smoke and mirrors and get upset when it is noticed.

We go from following basic English reading the rules to logic puzzles so you can hide the fact your premise is faulty by misdirection.

col_impact wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Col, you're trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Either the Cataphractii captain is not in Terminator armour, in which case they may select non-Terminator wargear, or they are, and can select Terminator wargear.

Not both.

Personally I would rather the Cataphractii Captain could not take a power fist. I put my personal feelings aside however.

In this discussion I am concerned with what the rules say.

In this case specific permission is given to the Terminator Captain to take items from the Terminator Weapons list. Now unless that rule is lying to us we have to adhere to it. And as we know specific rule statements override general rule statements.

This is the same permission that lets him take items from the Special Wargear section.

He also has permission to take cataphractii armor. Terminator armor grants certain permissions (access to the items in the terminator weapons list - as he is being called terminator captain it makes sense for it to be written to the default of actually having the terminator armor) but also denies permissions to other equipment. Accordign to RAW Cataphracti armor gives back some of the permissions that are denied (i.e.bikes, jump packs) but at the same time denies being able to access anything from the list of terminator weapons. The Terminator Captain has access to the terminator weapons list, true, but for anything that requires terminator armor to use he may only take if he has terminator armor. If you make the CHOICE to not have terminator armor, then that choice denies you from being able to access wargear that requires you to have terminator armor to take. The access is determined by the CHOICES you make in changing out armor - there is no blanket permission to take things from lists that you are prohibited from taking because of the armor you wear. The codswallop about "direct conflict" vs "not direct conflict" on your part is a complete fabrication on your part because you wish to ignore rules that you find inconvenient.

 JNAProductions wrote:
No functional difference. They might as well read the same.

In addition... Col, I would NOT go there. Failure to acknowledge the obvious is something you do. A lot.

Are you guys even looking at the Space Marines codex? There is quite a lot of difference.

Captain in Space Marine codex



Terminator Captain in Angels of Death supplement




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:


This is the same permission that lets him take items from the Special Wargear section.

He also has permission to take cataphractii armor. Terminator armor grants certain permissions (access to the items in the terminator weapons list - as he is being called terminator captain it makes sense for it to be written to the default of actually having the terminator armor) but also denies permissions to other equipment. Accordign to RAW Cataphracti armor gives back some of the permissions that are denied (i.e.bikes, jump packs) but at the same time denies being able to access anything from the list of terminator weapons. The Terminator Captain has access to the terminator weapons list, true, but for anything that requires terminator armor to use he may only take if he has terminator armor. If you make the CHOICE to not have terminator armor, then that choice denies you from being able to access wargear that requires you to have terminator armor to take. The access is determined by the CHOICES you make in changing out armor - there is no blanket permission to take things from lists that you are prohibited from taking because of the armor you wear. The codswallop about "direct conflict" vs "not direct conflict" on your part is a complete fabrication on your part because you wish to ignore rules that you find inconvenient.

Army List Entries don't have history. The Terminator Captain has specific permission to "take items from the Terminator Weapons" list, irrespective of whether he is in Terminator armour or Cataphractii armour.

col_impact wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
No functional difference. They might as well read the same.

In addition... Col, I would NOT go there. Failure to acknowledge the obvious is something you do. A lot.

Are you guys even looking at the Space Marines codex? There is quite a lot of difference.

Captain in Space Marine codex

Spoiler:

OPTIONS
• May be upgraded to a Chapter Master…40 pts
• A Captain or Chapter Master may replace his chainsword with a relic blade…25 pts
• A Captain or Chapter Master may take a storm shield…15 pts
• A Captain or Chapter Master may take artificer armour…20 pts
• A Captain or Chapter Master may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Chapter Relics lists.
• A Captain or Chapter Master may replace his bolt pistol, chainsword, frag and krak grenades with Terminator armour, storm bolter and power sword…30 pts
• A Captain or Chapter Master in Terminator armour may replace his power sword with a relic blade…10 pts
• A Captain or Chapter Master in Terminator armour may only take items from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Chapter Relics lists.

Terminator Captain in Angels of Death supplement

Spoiler:

OPTIONS:
• May replace power sword with relic blade (see Codex:Space Marines) .... 10 pts
• May replace Terminator armour with Cataphractii Terminator armour (pg 57) .... free
• May take items from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Chapter Relics list (see Codex: Space Marines)

"• A Captain or Chapter Master may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Chapter Relics lists."
"• May take items from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Chapter Relics list (see Codex: Space Marines)"

The only difference is one may take items from the melee weapons list and the other from the terminator weapons list. It's the same permssions for the different lists, though, so if restrictions apply to one category then they reply to the other categories as well. Blanket permission to override restrictions for terminator weapons? Then it's blanket permission to take melee weapons overriding restrictions. And blanket permission to take special issue wargear, overriding restrictions. And blanket permission to take chapter relics, overriding restrictions on taking relics. You can't argue it one way for one specfic thing then the other way for another thing covered by the exact same statement covering the thing you are asserting.

Ceann wrote:


After repeated corrections... you have corrected nothing. And you are right you never did say that, you asserted it, which is why I said asserted, if you need to understand the word I'm sure Merriam Webster can help you.

It says see codex space marines. You concluded that "may take items from" ignores prerequisites, when I try to apply your statement to the rest of the sentence you call your own argument a strawman.

I have only ever asserted that those restrictions that are in direct conflict with more specific permission are overridden by the more specific permission. No where have I stated, asserted, or implied that prerequisites would be ignored.

See codex space marines is also in that same sentence. It forces you to consult those rules.

 doctortom wrote:


"• A Captain or Chapter Master may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Chapter Relics lists."
"• May take items from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Chapter Relics list (see Codex: Space Marines)"

The only difference is one may take items from the melee weapons list and the other from the terminator weapons list. It's the same permssions for the different lists, though, so if restrictions apply to one category then they reply to the other categories as well. Blanket permission to override restrictions for terminator weapons? Then it's blanket permission to take melee weapons overriding restrictions. And blanket permission to take special issue wargear, overriding restrictions. And blanket permission to take chapter relics, overriding restrictions on taking relics. You can't argue it one way for one specfic thing then the other way for another thing covered by the exact same statement covering the thing you are asserting.

Terminator Captains in Angels of Death don't take items from Melee Weapons list so why are you trying to force a comparison there. Forcing the threads attention doesn't help your agument.

This is where things are different.





What are the differences between those two lines?

col_impact wrote:

Permissions granted to one specific model in a codex Army List Entry is much more specific than descriptive text vaguely applying a general restriction to any model that gets directed to that list.

In other words, there is no mention of the Terminator Captain in the Terminator Weapons list so it cannot be more specific than the permission granted from the Army List Entry for the Terminator Captain.

Sounds like you said exactly that.
If wearing terminator armour is a descriptive text, then one relic is descriptive text and rules to ride the bike are descriptive text.

YOUR words.

Ceann wrote:
See codex space marines is also in that same sentence. It forces you to consult those rules.

That has never been in contention nor is it relevant.

What is relevant is the specificity of the permission granted to the Terminator Captain to "take items from the Terminator Weapons" list. That permission is granted to the exact model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Permissions granted to one specific model in a codex Army List Entry is much more specific than descriptive text vaguely applying a general restriction to any model that gets directed to that list.

In other words, there is no mention of the Terminator Captain in the Terminator Weapons list so it cannot be more specific than the permission granted from the Army List Entry for the Terminator Captain.

Sounds like you said exactly that.
If wearing terminator armour is a descriptive text, then one relic is descriptive text and rules to ride the bike are descriptive text.

YOUR words.

Which of those are in direct conflict with the permission granted to the Terminator Captain model?

col_impact wrote:

 doctortom wrote:


"• A Captain or Chapter Master may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Chapter Relics lists."
"• May take items from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Chapter Relics list (see Codex: Space Marines)"

The only difference is one may take items from the melee weapons list and the other from the terminator weapons list. It's the same permssions for the different lists, though, so if restrictions apply to one category then they reply to the other categories as well. Blanket permission to override restrictions for terminator weapons? Then it's blanket permission to take melee weapons overriding restrictions. And blanket permission to take special issue wargear, overriding restrictions. And blanket permission to take chapter relics, overriding restrictions on taking relics. You can't argue it one way for one specfic thing then the other way for another thing covered by the exact same statement covering the thing you are asserting.

Terminator Captains in Angels of Death don't take items from Melee Weapons list so why are you trying to force a comparison there. Forcing the threads attention doesn't help your agument.

This is where things are different.

Spoiler:

• A Captain or Chapter Master in Terminator armour may only take items from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Chapter Relics lists.

Spoiler:

• May take items from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Chapter Relics list (see Codex: Space Marines)

What are the differences between those two lines?

The difference is you cherry picking.

It says only in the SM codex because it is removing basic Melee weapons and basic ranged weapons from your choices that you had in PA. That text isn't in the other data sheet because he starts in terminator armor and is not having access removed.

They MAY take, MAY. It means it is possible to take, that is what may means. Not he CAN, denoting no circumstances, he MAY. There is an option to so. SEE Codex space marines tells you what rules to follow.

Ceann wrote:

col_impact wrote:


This is where things are different.

Spoiler:

• A Captain or Chapter Master in Terminator armour may only take items from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Chapter Relics lists.

Spoiler:

• May take items from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Chapter Relics list (see Codex: Space Marines)

What are the differences between those two lines?

The difference is you cherry picking.

It says only in the SM codex because it is removing basic Melee weapons and basic ranged weapons from your choices that you had in PA. That text isn't in the other data sheet because he starts in terminator armor and is not having access removed.

They MAY take, MAY. It means it is possible to take, that is what may means. Not he CAN, denoting no circumstances, he MAY. There is an option to so. SEE Codex space marines tells you what rules to follow.

Right. So "may" means possibility, permission, opportunity

So "may take items" is in direct conflict with a general statement that makes it impossible for the model to "take items".


In summary

My argument against col_impact's reasoning of rule specificity still remains unchallenged, actually mostly ignored. Inconvenient truth maybe?

Due to lack of new and credible arguments, I think we can almost unanimously conclude that RAW Terminator Captain in Cataprachtii Terminator Armour:

CAN take bike/jump pack etc. as the Cataprachtii Terminator armour is not Terminator Armour by definition

CANNOT take any items from Terminator Weapons as the Cataprachtii Terminator Armour is not Terminator Armour by definition and because of that is limited by the restrictions stated in Terminator Weapons

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:

col_impact wrote:


This is where things are different.

Spoiler:

• A Captain or Chapter Master in Terminator armour may only take items from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Chapter Relics lists.

Spoiler:

• May take items from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Chapter Relics list (see Codex: Space Marines)

What are the differences between those two lines?

The difference is you cherry picking.

It says only in the SM codex because it is removing basic Melee weapons and basic ranged weapons from your choices that you had in PA. That text isn't in the other data sheet because he starts in terminator armor and is not having access removed.

They MAY take, MAY. It means it is possible to take, that is what may means. Not he CAN, denoting no circumstances, he MAY. There is an option to so. SEE Codex space marines tells you what rules to follow.

Right. So "may" means possibility, permission, opportunity

So "may take items" is in direct conflict with a general statement that makes it impossible for the model to "take items".


In summary

Spoiler:

The specific permission granted to the Terminator Captain overrides the more general description text that precludes the permission.

Overrides are specifically applied to text that directly conflicts.

There is a specific rule on the Army List Entry that the captain may take items from the Terminator Weapons list.

There is some descriptive text ("wearing terminator armour") that prevents the captain from taking any and all items for the Terminator Weapons. Text that makes it impossible for the captain to take any item at all directly conflicts with the line "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list.

So, there is a direct conflict between a specific permission granted to the captain model and a general description.

The specific permission ("may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list) granted to that exact model (the captain) wins out over the general descriptive text ("wearing terminator armour")

Wrong. Garbage. Rubbish.
PER the BRB when a conflict exists the CODEX takes precedence. A supplement is not a codex.
On the captains wargear is says... see codex space marines. On the sentence to take war gear, it says see codex space marines, his data sheet has multiple references to see codex space marines.

What the model says is irrelevant, the codex rules have priority. Again you are trying to introduce silly logic puzzles and cherry picking words out of a data sheet instead of interpreting the entire sheet.

Impossible or redundant rules aren't new in gw's rules. For example, kyr vhalen has a rule that states he must be warlord unless Perturabo is present. You physically can't take them both in a list as they have opposite loyalties. Absolutely pointless rule, but it's there.

Ghorgul wrote:
My argument against col_impact's reasoning of rule specificity still remains unchallenged, actually mostly ignored. Inconvenient truth maybe?

What argument is that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:



Wrong. Garbage. Rubbish.
PER the BRB when a conflict exists the CODEX takes precedence. A supplement is not a codex.
On the captains wargear is says... see codex space marines. On the sentence to take war gear, it says see codex space marines, his data sheet has multiple references to see codex space marines.

What the model says is irrelevant, the codex rules have priority. Again you are trying to introduce silly logic puzzles and cherry picking words out of a data sheet instead of interpreting the entire sheet.

Angels of Death is a "Codex Supplement" so it overrides the Space Marine's codex in cases of conflict. The Codex Supplement adds and replaces rules in the base Codex where appropriate.

WHERE APPROPRIATE.

But the line you personally feel it to be appropriate for says...... see codex space marines. It replaces nothing and takes precedence over nothing.

Oh wow jumped back in there real quick and removed where you put appropriate huh?
Please follow tenet 1, state your proven premise that a supplement replaces a codex. You are making things up again, fast as you can.

Ceann wrote:
WHERE APPROPRIATE.

But the line you personally feel it to be appropriate for says...... see codex space marines.

So? The permission provided in the Angels of Death Codex Supplement can add, override, or replace text in codex: Space Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JamesY wrote:
Impossible or redundant rules aren't new in gw's rules. For example, kyr vhalen has a rule that states he must be warlord unless Perturabo is present. You physically can't take them both in a list as they have opposite loyalties. Absolutely pointless rule, but it's there.

Cool. So you provide the example of a redundant rule which has ZERO relevance to the discussion at hand. Do you have an example of an impossible rule?

So?

Do what codex space marines says. It isn't rocket science.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It does not override the codex it tells you to consult.

Tenet 1 state your precedence for this.

Ceann wrote:
So?

Do what codex space marines says. It isn't rocket science.

And specific permission provided by the Angels of Death Codex Supplement is going to override more general restriction in Codex Space Marines. As you say, it isn't rocket science.

Wrong.

Tenet 1, provide your precedence for this statement.

Your scenario isn't impossible col. As you present it, the model can access the terminator wargear. If he chooses to upgrade to cataphracti armour, he would then loose access to it, at which point it is a redundant option. It is possible for him to access it as long as he remains in his original terminator armour.

I can't find the page in the supplement that says it takes precedence or overrides codex space marines.

 JamesY wrote:
Your scenario isn't impossible col. As you present it, the model can access the terminator wargear. If he chooses to upgrade to cataphracti armour, he would then loose access to it, at which point it is a redundant option. It is possible for him to access it as long as he remains in his original terminator armour.

Does the Option say "may take items" or "may access items"? I don't think you are paying attention to the difference there.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Col, you're trying to have your cake and eat it too.

A strange phrase. It never made sense to me. Why could you never eat the cake you have? If it means that you cannot eat something already eaten, then it is worded quite poorly.

In this case, though, Col_Ignored is trying to push a brownie as cake for getting ala mode, but not as cake for the price.

Or maybe just like Bill Cosby in justifying chocolate cake for breakfast?

By your logic, he may take cataphracti armour. Then he looks at the options he may take from the terminator wargear list, only to find that he isn't eligible for anything on there. He may therefore choose not to upgrade his armour, then go back to the terminator wargear list and find that the options that were previously unavailable, he may now take.

To me, its terminator armour either way, and if someone did try to shenanigan their way to a jetpack terminator, I'd enjoy the realisation that they'd set themselves up for an easy HQ removal, with no transport or squad it could hide in.