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col_impact wrote:

Correct. Per RAW all we know is that there is only a final validation method to make sure everything is lined up and coherent together.

You then have the issue that you have a chainfist that requires termi armour to have... but no termi armour on the final product

So the end product isn't coherent

GodDamUser wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Correct. Per RAW all we know is that there is only a final validation method to make sure everything is lined up and coherent together.

You then have the issue that you have a chainfist that requires termi armour to have... but no termi armour on the final product

So the end product isn't coherent

The end product is 100% coherent and legal. On what basis can you say otherwise?

A Terminator Captain has permission to take Terminator Weapons, irrespective of whether he dons terminator or Cataphractii armour.



A Terminator Captain with a bike, chainfist, and Cataphractii armour is a perfectly legal build.

col_impact wrote:

Correct. Per RAW all we know is that there is only a final validation method to make sure everything is lined up and coherent together.

No, there is no final validation method via RAW. RAW requires a literal, written statement to support it. There is no such Written statement that can be found which supports any method of Options purchasing for a unit. There was a huge thread on that exact subject, and people could only give HTWPI and no actual quote was provided. You have provided no quote to support any distinctive method of order of operations.

With a final validation method, either the Cataphractii Armour is Terminator or not. If it is, then you take the options provided by the Options statement starting with, "Captain or Chapter Master in Terminator armour..." and you cannot take a Bike or Jump Pack with it. If it is not, then you are restricted from using that options set, but using what is available to the Power Armour options set.

 Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Correct. Per RAW all we know is that there is only a final validation method to make sure everything is lined up and coherent together.

No, there is no final validation method via RAW. RAW requires a literal, written statement to support it.

It all needs to come together here.

col_impact wrote:
May take items in the Terminator Weapons

The actual wording of the rule is

A Captain or Chapter Master in Terminator Armour may only take items from the...

 Charistoph wrote:


With a final validation method, either the Cataphractii Armour is Terminator or not. If it is, then you take the options provided by the Options statement starting with, "Captain or Chapter Master in Terminator armour..." and you cannot take a Bike or Jump Pack with it. If it is not, then you are restricted from using that options set, but using what is available to the Power Armour options set.

You are confusing the way the Space Marine Codex captain does it and the way the Terminator Captain in the Angel of Death supplement does it.

A Terminator Captain simply has



Make sure to use the correct sources for the debate at hand or your comments are of little value.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GodDamUser wrote:

col_impact wrote:
May take items in the Terminator Weapons

The actual wording of the rule is

A Captain or Chapter Master in Terminator Armour may only take items from the...

Ah no wonder you are confused. You are not looking at the correct source for the debate. You need to look at the Terminator Captain datasheet in the Angels of Death supplement.

The actual datasheet says this . . .

Okay, this has gone on for 15 pages with only one person arguing on one side with any conviction... is this a successful troll attempt?

Sigh....

These weapons are too unbalanced and unwieldy for even a Battle-Brother in standard Astartes Power Armour to wield effectively; Chainfists are only capable of being used with Terminator Armour.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Okay, this has gone on for 15 pages with only one person arguing on one side with any conviction... is this a successful troll attempt?

This is a successful RAW argument.

So far no one has pointed to anything illegal in the following . . .

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Okay, this has gone on for 15 pages with only one person arguing on one side with any conviction... is this a successful troll attempt?

the last debate went for over 20 pages..

Just checking Angles of Death, now... will either agree or disagree in a moment

GodDamUser wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Okay, this has gone on for 15 pages with only one person arguing on one side with any conviction... is this a successful troll attempt?

the last debate went for over 20 pages..

Just checking Angles of Death, now... will either agree or disagree in a moment

Maybe you should just read the thread instead.

GodDamUser wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Okay, this has gone on for 15 pages with only one person arguing on one side with any conviction... is this a successful troll attempt?

the last debate went for over 20 pages..

Just checking Angles of Death, now... will either agree or disagree in a moment

Cool. Thanks for taking the effort to make sure we are on the same page here!

col_impact wrote:
This is a successful RAW argument.

So far no one has pointed to anything illegal in the following . . .

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

See this argument doesn't work as it is written..

1. Spacemairne captain buys a bike (as he is in power armour he can)

2. buys Terminator armour (cannot take a bike in termini armour, but I have done it in reverse order so it is all good)

Ceann wrote:


Maybe you should just read the thread instead.

Bad advice. I always make a thorough read of all sources involved. If you haven't actually read the rules, how can you enter into a debate on the rules?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GodDamUser wrote:


See this argument doesn't work as it is written..

1. Spacemairne captain buys a bike (as he is in power armour he can)

2. buys Terminator armour (cannot take a bike in termini armour, but I have done it in reverse order so it is all good)

Have you found the correct datasheet? It's called Terminator Captain.

But yes..

how you layered out your process is what is causing the confusion


Terminator captain has access to terminator weapons as a standard, so he can buy the fist no matter what armour he has.. (Default termi)

By upgrading his armour he no longer in termi armour and therefore takes a bike

So Col is correct

How can I enter a debate on the rules?

There are no rules here. None.

Your entire "argument" which it can't even be called one is predicated on the fact that there NO rules that clearly define how gear is purchased.

Your assertion is based upon the fact that there aren't rules governing your actions. This means that ALL weargear purchases are RAI and RAW does not exist. You cannot prove that your method of buying items is RAW, because there are no rules written on the topic.

Ceann wrote:
How can I enter a debate on the rules?

There are no rules here. None.

Your entire "argument" which it can't even be called one is predicated on the fact that there NO rules that clearly define how gear is purchased.

Your assertion is based upon the fact that there aren't rules governing your actions. This means that ALL weargear purchases are RAI and RAW does not exist. You cannot prove that your method of buying items is RAW, because there are no rules written on the topic.

Have you actually looked at the Angel of Death supplement?

Ceann wrote:
How can I enter a debate on the rules?

There are no rules here. None.

Your entire "argument" which it can't even be called one is predicated on the fact that there NO rules that clearly define how gear is purchased.

Your assertion is based upon the fact that there aren't rules governing your actions. This means that ALL weargear purchases are RAI and RAW does not exist. You cannot prove that your method of buying items is RAW, because there are no rules written on the topic.

Yeah Sorry Ceann

We have lost this one, mainly due to looking at Codex Spacemaine instead of Codex Angles of Death

In this case the 'Terminator Captain' by default has access to Termi and Special items, changing the armour removes the restriction on on bikes


A normal Spacemarine Captain only gets access to termi items with termi armour and doesn't work

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:
How can I enter a debate on the rules?

There are no rules here. None.

Your entire "argument" which it can't even be called one is predicated on the fact that there NO rules that clearly define how gear is purchased.

Your assertion is based upon the fact that there aren't rules governing your actions. This means that ALL weargear purchases are RAI and RAW does not exist. You cannot prove that your method of buying items is RAW, because there are no rules written on the topic.

Have you actually looked at the Angel of Death supplement?

The one that says See Codex: Space Marines?

Ceann wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:
How can I enter a debate on the rules?

There are no rules here. None.

Your entire "argument" which it can't even be called one is predicated on the fact that there NO rules that clearly define how gear is purchased.

Your assertion is based upon the fact that there aren't rules governing your actions. This means that ALL weargear purchases are RAI and RAW does not exist. You cannot prove that your method of buying items is RAW, because there are no rules written on the topic.

Have you actually looked at the Angel of Death supplement?

The one that says See Codex: Space Marines?

Have you actually looked at the Angel of Death supplement?

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:
How can I enter a debate on the rules?

There are no rules here. None.

Your entire "argument" which it can't even be called one is predicated on the fact that there NO rules that clearly define how gear is purchased.

Your assertion is based upon the fact that there aren't rules governing your actions. This means that ALL weargear purchases are RAI and RAW does not exist. You cannot prove that your method of buying items is RAW, because there are no rules written on the topic.

Have you actually looked at the Angel of Death supplement?

The one that says See Codex: Space Marines?

Have you actually looked at the Angel of Death supplement?

The one that says See Codex: Space Marines?

How he did his argument was poor, I agree with that.

But in the end the end product is legit and cannot be faulted

Ceann wrote:

col_impact wrote:


Have you actually looked at the Angel of Death supplement?

The one that says See Codex: Space Marines?

Ok. Got it. You haven't looked at the Angel of Death supplement.

No wonder you are confused.

GodDamUser wrote:

Ceann wrote:
How can I enter a debate on the rules?

There are no rules here. None.

Your entire "argument" which it can't even be called one is predicated on the fact that there NO rules that clearly define how gear is purchased.

Your assertion is based upon the fact that there aren't rules governing your actions. This means that ALL weargear purchases are RAI and RAW does not exist. You cannot prove that your method of buying items is RAW, because there are no rules written on the topic.

Yeah Sorry Ceann

We have lost this one, mainly due to looking at Codex Spacemaine instead of Codex Angles of Death

In this case the 'Terminator Captain' by default has access to Termi and Special items, changing the armour removes the restriction on on bikes


A normal Spacemarine Captain only gets access to termi items with termi armour and doesn't work

We lost what?
How can you make a RAW argument, if there are no rules to read?
There are no rules governing the order in which you purchase items. Because there are no rules written for the order of purchasing items we can either assume one of two things.
Either no purchases can be made at all, or any purchase can be made, and that is an assumption.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:

col_impact wrote:


Have you actually looked at the Angel of Death supplement?

The one that says See Codex: Space Marines?

Ok. Got it. You haven't looked at the Angel of Death supplement.

No wonder you are confused.

I guess I would have had to have looked at it order to know you can't answer the question of what page the Terminator Weapons are in the AoD supplement right?
Or what page tells you that you can sequence buying your gear options?

No wonder you are confused.

Ceann wrote:


We lost what?
How can you make a RAW argument, if there are no rules to read?
There are no rules governing the order in which you purchase items. Because there are no rules written for the order of purchasing items we can either assume one of two things.
Either no purchases can be made at all, or any purchase can be made, and that is an assumption.

I suggest you start with actually reading the Angels of Death supplement.

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:


We lost what?
How can you make a RAW argument, if there are no rules to read?
There are no rules governing the order in which you purchase items. Because there are no rules written for the order of purchasing items we can either assume one of two things.
Either no purchases can be made at all, or any purchase can be made, and that is an assumption.

I suggest you start with actually reading the Angels of Death supplement.

The one that says See Codex: Space Marines?
That doesn't have Terminator Weapons in it?
Or Special Wargear?

Ceann wrote:

col_impact wrote:


I suggest you start with actually reading the Angels of Death supplement.

The one that says See Codex: Space Marines?
That doesn't have Terminator Weapons in it?
Or Special Wargear?

Ok. Got it. You haven't looked at the Angel of Death supplement.

No wonder you are confused.

Well, I suggest you start with actually reading the Angels of Death supplement.

Ceann wrote:
I guess I would have had to have looked at it order to know you can't answer the question of what page the Terminator Weapons are in the AoD supplement right?
Or what page tells you that you can sequence buying your gear options?

Well see the thing here

it is the unit itself that gives access to Terminator weapon in this case, not the terminator armour

No, because Terminator Weapons states, "a model wearing terminator armor may"

Wearing the armor is a requirement for the item.
The thing here is.

We don't have rules that dictate how items are purchased.
While you can dictate they can be purchased one way...

The method of visiting the wargear shop 4 or 5 times making individual purchases.

Or

The method of visiting one time and having all of the rules checked on checkout.

is "the thing here is".

He asserts you can do the former, with no rule to support it, everyone else is on the latter, with no rule to support it.

If neither side has a rule to support the order in which items are purchased, how is it RAW?

Ceann wrote:
No, because Terminator Weapons states, "a model wearing terminator armor may"

Wearing the armor is a requirement for the item.
The thing here is.

We don't have rules that dictate how items are purchased.
While you can dictate they can be purchased one way...

The method of visiting the wargear shop 4 or 5 times making individual purchases.

Or the method of visiting one time and having all of the rules checked on checkout

is "the thing here is".

He asserts you can do the former, with no rule to support it, everyone else is on the latter, with no rule to support it.

If neither side has a rule to support the order in which items are purchased, how is it RAW?

All that is required of RAW is providing a legal build at the end of the purchasing process for a Force Org.



At work the rule is I need to show up at 9 AM.
There is no rule for how many steps I need to make to get there at 9 AM