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"Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase" is pretty cut and dry.

You quoted different movement distances within a unit.
That's explaining how to handle different speeds in the same unit.
It doesn't affect the previous statement of models moving 6", meaning ALL models.

Well maybe you should chip in instead of /popcorn?

Everyone has this standard that somehow the infantry rules are the standard for all the basic rules. This is fabricated from the fact that the rules use infantry as the examples to explain the rules

People are focused on you saying movement and going...
Movement = 6"

Movement does not = 6"

Movement = The movement phase. All of the basic rules PERTAINING to movement are in the movement phase section. You don't get to cherry pick 6" out of and ignore the rest of it.

You are told in the movement pages that other units move at different movement values, you are told this specifically and explicitly.

Movement = 6"
Movement = 12"

These use the EXACT SAME RULES to perform the task.

Ceann wrote:
No, it really isn't. I am just dealing with some very dense opinions.

So what I stated was not the case, and the mention of Infantry outside of the Core Rules section in the Unit Types section, which is a section of advanced rules, doesn't say something along the lines of having been dealt with in the basic rules/Core Rules section?

I'm trying to engage here, fresh and untarnished from the other thread and mudslinging, so it'd be nice if you did me the courtesy of actually engaging back.

 Roknar wrote:
"Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase" is pretty cut and dry.

You quoted different movement distances within a unit.
That's explaining how to handle different speeds in the same unit.
It doesn't affect the previous statement of models moving 6", meaning ALL models.

Sigh...

Do you even look at your rulebook man?
Or do you just read the 5 words like Col does.

""""""""""""For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by
far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.""""""""""""

That is on the first page of the movement phase man. I don't know what else to tell you. It tells you that its going to talk about infantry now and that its going to talk about other things later. This is in the core rules section. In fact you would have had to read this if you hadn't just skipped to "movement = 6" and used that as your answer.

Read the entire chapter and then come back and tell me how I am wrong, not read a one liner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr. Shine wrote:

Ceann wrote:
No, it really isn't. I am just dealing with some very dense opinions.

So what I stated was not the case, and the mention of Infantry outside of the Core Rules section in the Unit Types section, which is a section of advanced rules, doesn't say something along the lines of having been dealt with in the basic rules/Core Rules section?

I'm trying to engage here, fresh and untarnished from the other thread and mudslinging, so it'd be nice if you did me the courtesy of actually engaging back.

Here is the issue.

You have people running under this assumption that the STANDARD for movement, shooting, assault, morale, all basic rules etc. Is an Infantry Unit.
They are then therefore asserting that all of the rules located in the unit type section, rather than being the profiles for how those units use the basic rules, are instead advanced rules.

So they are saying a bike moving 12" is an advanced rule. etc.

It boils down to this to them saying.

movement = 6' is a basic rule
movement = 7+ is an advanced rule

They disregard that unit types are mentioned in the core rules, that they are stated that they are an extension of the units profile, or that pages that reference them in the core rules are not basic rules.

Ceann wrote:
Well maybe you should chip in instead of /popcorn?

I'm at work at the moment so don't have the rulebook on hand. So I am not gonna directly try to influence the argument when I don't have the rule to quote

But I am enjoying the popcorn, and you two seem to be throwing around a lot of rule book quotes.. but at this stage in the argument from what I have been reading, you are losing this argument.. and are resorting to the same tactic that Col uses of just repeating yourself.

I am suggesting you change up your argument to show what you are saying from different angles

Ceann wrote:
Well maybe you should chip in instead of /popcorn?

Everyone has this standard that somehow the infantry rules are the standard for all the basic rules. This is fabricated from the fact that the rules use infantry as the examples to explain the rules

People are focused on you saying movement and going...
Movement = 6"

Movement does not = 6"

Movement = The movement phase. All of the basic rules PERTAINING to movement are in the movement phase section. You don't get to cherry pick 6" out of and ignore the rest of it.

You are told in the movement pages that other units move at different movement values, you are told this specifically and explicitly.

Movement = 6"

Movement = 12"

These use the EXACT SAME RULES to perform the task.

You are NOT told that units move at different speeds as a rule. At least not in the way you think

You are misinterpreting the paragraph about models moving at different speeds within the same unit.
All models move up to 6" as a basic rule. A rule that is changed by many units.
That paragraph is telling you what to do when you have models with different speeds in the same unit.
Which is a situation that all models can find themselves in and needs to be dealt with in the core rules.

The core rules are't blind to the fact that advanced rules exist and can change them.
That doesn't magically turn advanced rules into basic rules.

Ceann wrote:

So they are saying a bike moving 12" is an advanced rule. etc.

It boils down to this to them saying.

movement = 6' is a basic rule
movement = 7+ is an advanced rule

They disregard that unit types are mentioned in the core rules, that they are stated that they are an extension of the units profile, or that pages that reference them in the core rules are not basic rules.

Well they are saying that the Basic Rule for movement is 6" (not feet), the basic rule for moment makes mention that there are units that don't use the Basic movement and are mentioned elsewhere.

Which would make them Advance rules as they are not in the Core Rules section...

The Core Rules mentions the unit types but doesn't go into Detail, unlike the Units section of the book which is not the Core Rules

Ceann wrote:
Here is the issue.

You have people running under this assumption that the STANDARD for movement, shooting, assault, morale, all basic rules etc. Is an Infantry Unit.
They are then therefore asserting that all of the rules located in the unit type section, rather than being the profiles for how those units use the basic rules, are instead advanced rules.

So they are saying a bike moving 12" is an advanced rule. etc.

It boils down to this to them saying.

movement = 6' is a basic rule
movement = 7+ is an advanced rule

They disregard that unit types are mentioned in the core rules, that they are stated that they are an extension of the units profile, or that pages that reference them in the core rules are not basic rules.

It seems to me that the Core Rules are the standard, which we are told Infantry simply adhere to.

I understand from the other thread part of your argument may be that the Core Rules tells us that all models will have a unit type and therefore you say the various Unit Types must be basic rules, but what would you say to the idea that having a unit type may be a basic rule, but that the Unit Types themselves introduce advanced rules by virtue of breaking various other basic rules, either by applying special rules to models of a given Unit Type, or for example by directly changing movement values from that introduced in the Core Rules?

Ragnar,
Buddy.

I am trying really really hard here.

Lets do this.
Assume I am correct. For argument's sake.

Now ask me whatever questions I need to provide answers to, for you to be convinced of what I am saying is correct. The methods I have been trying to use have obviously been not effective.

Because I don't know what criteria you are using to come your conclusion.

Ceann wrote:


They disregard that unit types are mentioned in the core rules, that they are stated that they are an extension of the units profile, or that pages that reference them in the core rules are not basic rules.

'Mentioning' does not entail 'containing'. The actual rules need to be in the Core Rules section for them to be basic rules.

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.

Any rules that are movement abilities for specific models that are not in Core Rules section are not basic rules. They are advanced rules.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

Ceann wrote:
Here is the issue.

You have people running under this assumption that the STANDARD for movement, shooting, assault, morale, all basic rules etc. Is an Infantry Unit.
They are then therefore asserting that all of the rules located in the unit type section, rather than being the profiles for how those units use the basic rules, are instead advanced rules.

So they are saying a bike moving 12" is an advanced rule. etc.

It boils down to this to them saying.

movement = 6' is a basic rule
movement = 7+ is an advanced rule

They disregard that unit types are mentioned in the core rules, that they are stated that they are an extension of the units profile, or that pages that reference them in the core rules are not basic rules.

It seems to me that the Core Rules are the standard, which we are told Infantry simply adhere to.

I understand from the other thread part of your argument may be that the Core Rules tells us that all models will have a unit type and therefore you say the various Unit Types must be basic rules, but what would you say to the idea that having a unit type may be a basic rule, but that the Unit Types themselves introduce advanced rules by virtue of breaking various other basic rules, either by applying special rules to models of a given Unit Type, or for example by directly changing movement values from that introduced in the Core Rules?

What information do I need to provide to you, in order for you consider my point of view?

GodDamUser wrote:

Ceann wrote:

So they are saying a bike moving 12" is an advanced rule. etc.

It boils down to this to them saying.

movement = 6' is a basic rule
movement = 7+ is an advanced rule

They disregard that unit types are mentioned in the core rules, that they are stated that they are an extension of the units profile, or that pages that reference them in the core rules are not basic rules.

Well they are saying that the Basic Rule for movement is 6" (not feet), the basic rule for moment makes mention that there are units that don't use the Basic movement and are mentioned elsewhere.

Which would make them Advance rules as they are not in the Core Rules section...

The Core Rules mentions the unit types but doesn't go into Detail, unlike the Units section of the book which is not the Core Rules

Exactly. Where are the rules actually contained? If the rules are contained in the Core Rules section then they are almost assuredly basic rules. If they rules are not in the Core Rules section then they are advanced rules.

That's another points I'd like to address.
People are not saying that the basic rules are built on infantry.
The opposite is true.
Infantry rules are based on the basic rules, as are all types, except that infantry rules don't add or change any of the basic rules.

Ceann wrote:


What information do I need to provide to you, in order for you consider my point of view?

Speaking for myself, I would appreciate rules quotes and then commentary by you that actually follows what the rules quotes say.

Frequently when you quote the rules you then provide commentary that does not follow at all from that rules quote.

Ceann wrote:
What information do I need to provide to you, in order for you consider my point of view?

That I am offering a counter-argument in direct reference to what you're saying evidences that I am considering your point of view. Could you please respond to my counter-point suggesting that all models simply having a unit type is the basic rule, while the specific unit types themselves apply advanced rules?

Indeed, it seem to me this is the only way we can resolve the following quote:

"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."

Because if being a Bike, Swarm or Tank model is a basic rule, it cannot apply as an advanced rule as we are told above. It also accords with the rules telling us all basic rules are found in the Core Rules section, because that too would not work if the actual rules for Unit Types were found outside of the Core Rules section (which of course they are not).

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:


They disregard that unit types are mentioned in the core rules, that they are stated that they are an extension of the units profile, or that pages that reference them in the core rules are not basic rules.

Mentioning does not entail containing. The actual rules need to be in the Core Rules section for them to be basic rules.

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.

Any rules that are movement abilities for specific models that are not in Core Rules section are not basic rules. They are advanced rules.

This is incorrect Col.

You are using Basic vs Advanced to justify that you are correct. That is the rule section you are using.
Does basic vs advanced TELL YOU to use the unit type section and that those are all advanced rules?
No.

It gives you an odd jumble of descriptive factors that do not clearly identify what it is talking about. You are taking that ball and running with it as hard as you can.

Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.

Is movement a basic rule? Yes.
Is assaulting a basic rule? Yes.
Is shooting a basic rule? Yes.
is morale a basic rule? Yes.

Are all of these located somewhere in the unit type section? Yes.

Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise.
Has it been stated otherwise? Anywhere?

Is Tank Shock a movement rule?
Yes. "declare how many inches the vehicle is going to move"

Is Thrustmove a movement rule?
Yes. "can move up to 2d6"

So you are claiming that in Basic vs Advanced.
Out of these 3 statements.
That 1 is MORE CLEAR than 2 or 3?


1.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability
to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).




2.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules or morale.


3.
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games
Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex. Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.


If anything 1. is the MOST VAGUE out of all these statements and should be the last one you consider when identifying what is and is not an advanced rule.
You are taking a vaguely worded sentence and using it to conflate it however you wish.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr. Shine wrote:

Ceann wrote:
What information do I need to provide to you, in order for you consider my point of view?

That I am offering a counter-argument in direct reference to what you're saying evidences that I am considering your point of view. Could you please respond to my counter-point suggesting that all models simply having a unit type is the basic rule, while the specific unit types themselves apply advanced rules?

Indeed, it seem to me this is the only way we can resolve the following quote:

"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."

Because if being a Bike, Swarm or Tank model is a basic rule, it cannot apply as an advanced rule as we are told above. It also accords with the rules telling us all basic rules are found in the Core Rules section, because that too would not work if the actual rules for Unit Types were found outside of the Core Rules section (which of course they are not).

Note that the line you are quoting talks about SPECIFIC MODELS, not Units.
Why are we taking a line that talks about models and conflating it to Units?

If you want me to explain what that term means... a boltgun = a combi melta, unusual skills = IWND, or a medicpack for FNP, unit leader = sargeant or an IC, not normal infantry models = swarm special rule, a tank and bike have relentless and/or splitfire. Infantry by default have NO special rules. Ex. Beasts have Fleet, a Vehicle relentless.

That phrase is just descriptive, I would say it implies special rules, options and wargear that are available to specific models in a unit. For example if you have a unit of infantry and an IC joins who has shroud, they would gain shroud, because of a specific model. But if the IC joined a unit that had shroud, he would gain it. The different being the ability being sourced from a unit or sourced from an individual model. In each circumstance if you nearly kill the entire unit, shroud is still there, but in the other if you just kill the IC, it goes away.

Ceann wrote:


Is movement a basic rule? Yes.
Is assaulting a basic rule? Yes.
Is shooting a basic rule? Yes.
is morale a basic rule? Yes.

Are all of these located somewhere in the unit type section? Yes.

The rules for movement, assault, shooting, and morale that are in the Core Rules section are basic rules.

Any rule for a specific movement ability for a specific type of model that is not in the Core Rules section is an advanced rule.

So any rule for specific movement abilities for the unit types in the Unit Types section are advanced rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:


If you want me to explain what that term means... a boltgun = a combi melta, unusual skills = IWND, or a medicpack for FNP, unit leader = sargeant or an IC, not normal infantry models = swarm special rule, a tank and bike have relentless and/or splitfire. Infantry by default have NO special rules. Ex. Beasts have Fleet, a Vehicle relentless.

This is ridiculously bad argumentation. How are you expecting us to accept that the BRB would mean 'combi-melta' when it wrote 'boltgun' or 'relentless' when it wrote 'tank'?

If you can't accept what the rules actually say then your argument has no rule support and you should post your wild ruminations in the Proposed Rules section.

At this point you are making up your own rules.

'Bike', 'tank', 'boltgun', 'swarm', 'character' are the advanced rules. Accept it. It is written.

Ceann wrote:
Note that the line you are quoting talks about SPECIFIC MODELS, not Units.
Why are we taking a line that talks about models and conflating it to Units?

If you want me to explain what that term means... a boltgun = a combi melta, unusual skills = IWND, or a medicpack for FNP, unit leader = sargeant or an IC, not normal infantry models = swarm special rule, a tank and bike have relentless and/or splitfire. Infantry by default have NO special rules. Ex. Beasts have Fleet, a Vehicle relentless.

That phrase is just descriptive, I would say it implies special rules, options and wargear that are available to specific models in a unit. For example if you have a unit of infantry and an IC joins who has shroud, they would gain shroud, because of a specific model. But if the IC joined a unit that had shroud, he would gain it. The different being the ability being sourced from a unit or sourced from an individual model. In each circumstance if you nearly kill the entire unit, shroud is still there, but in the other if you just kill the IC, it goes away.

You've completely lost me. Where am I conflating references to specific models with references to units, and why is it relevant here?

As for what the quote refers to, the rules don't place such specific terminology in there, so why are you? You've got no rules basis to claim the quote refers only to situations of a model having for example a Combi-melta, or the It Will Not Die or Feel No Pain special rules, or being a Character, or having the Relentless special rule by virtue of being a bike (but not being a bike itself).

Indeed, having the Relentless special rule because of being a Bike would fit perfectly into your definition of "unusual skills". If it simply meant that, why repeat itself in a different and vastly more confusing way by referring to being a Bike? Because it actually means what it says, that being of a given Unit Type can apply advanced rules.

Also, you've not addressed the issue of Unit Types not being in the Core Rules section if they're basic rules.

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:


Is movement a basic rule? Yes.
Is assaulting a basic rule? Yes.
Is shooting a basic rule? Yes.
is morale a basic rule? Yes.

Are all of these located somewhere in the unit type section? Yes.

1. The rules for movement, assault, shooting, and morale that are in the Core Rules section are basic rules.


2 .Any rule for a specific movement ability for a specific type of model that is not in the Core Rules section is an advanced rule.

3 .So any rule for specific movement abilities for the unit types in the Unit Types section are advanced rules.

1. Correct. Here is one of the rules from that section.

Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the
case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains
in unit coherency.

This is a basic rule for movement.

2. Wrong, there are no specific model types in the Core Rules.

Ex. how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.

Seems pretty specific to me.

3. Wrong.
We are told that those rules exist in the core rules, they just do not physically reside on those pages.
Just like we are told psyker powers exist, and different weapon profiles exist, they also do not physically reside on those pages.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr. Shine wrote:

Ceann wrote:
Note that the line you are quoting talks about SPECIFIC MODELS, not Units.
Why are we taking a line that talks about models and conflating it to Units?

If you want me to explain what that term means... a boltgun = a combi melta, unusual skills = IWND, or a medicpack for FNP, unit leader = sargeant or an IC, not normal infantry models = swarm special rule, a tank and bike have relentless and/or splitfire. Infantry by default have NO special rules. Ex. Beasts have Fleet, a Vehicle relentless.

That phrase is just descriptive, I would say it implies special rules, options and wargear that are available to specific models in a unit. For example if you have a unit of infantry and an IC joins who has shroud, they would gain shroud, because of a specific model. But if the IC joined a unit that had shroud, he would gain it. The different being the ability being sourced from a unit or sourced from an individual model. In each circumstance if you nearly kill the entire unit, shroud is still there, but in the other if you just kill the IC, it goes away.

You've completely lost me. Where am I conflating references to specific models with references to units, and why is it relevant here?

As for what the quote refers to, the rules don't place such specific terminology in there, so why are you? You've got no rules basis to claim the quote refers only to situations of a model having for example a Combi-melta, or the It Will Not Die or Feel No Pain special rules, or being a Character, or having the Relentless special rule by virtue of being a bike (but not being a bike itself).

Indeed, having the Relentless special rule because of being a Bike would fit perfectly into your definition of "unusual skills". If it simply meant that, why repeat itself in a different and vastly more confusing way by referring to being a Bike? Because it actually means what it says, that being of a given Unit Type applies advanced rules.

Your quote is kinda messed up.

I was not claiming I understand what that statement applied too, all I was saying that anyone "myself, you, col" could only HAZARAD A GUESS as to what all of that means, it is not specific enough. That statement is being used with a CLAIM that the Unit Types section is all advanced rules. I am disputing that claim.

The conflating I was referring too, was that rule line you quoted says specific models.

These below are both units. Tell me which unit has the specific model.

Unit 1
1 Tactical Marine Sargent model
4 Tactical Marine models

Unit 2
3 Elder Jetbike models


Can you see how disingenuous it is to apply that statement to unit types?

Ceann wrote:


1. Correct. Here is one of the rules from that section.

Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the
case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains
in unit coherency.

This is a basic rule for movement.

2. Wrong, there are no specific model types in the Core Rules.

Ex. how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.

Seems pretty specific to me.

3. Wrong.
We are told that those rules exist in the core rules, they just do not physically reside on those pages.
Just like we are told psyker powers exist, and different weapon profiles exist, they also do not physically reside on those pages.

'Mentioning' does not entail 'containing'.

The advanced rules for movement for the various unit types are contained in the Unit Types section. All basic rules are contained in the Core Rules section.

You are trying to magically relocate rules by just having a term mentioned in the Core Rules section. Mentioning does not change where the rules are contained.

Skyborne, an advanced rule for movement, is in the Unit Types section. It doesn't magically relocate to be contained in the Core Rules section because 'unit type' is mentioned or 'movement' is mentioned or 'certain other types' is mentioned.

Ceann wrote:
I was not claiming I understand what that statement applied too, all I was saying that anyone "myself, you, col" could only HAZARAD A GUESS as to what all of that means, it is not specific enough. That statement is being used with a CLAIM that the Unit Types section is all advanced rules.

But it clearly tells us that not being a normal Infantry model applies as an advanced rule. It doesn't need to be more specific than that - if it is not a normal Infantry model, whatever makes it not a normal Infantry model applies as an advanced rule. There doesn't need to be any more to it than that.

The conflating I was referring too, was that rule line you quoted says specific models.

These below are both units. Tell me which unit has the specific model.

Unit 1
1 Tactical Marine Sargent model
4 Tactical Marine models

Unit 2
3 Elder Jetbike models

Can you see how disingenuous it is to apply that statement to unit types?

The reference to "specific types of models" is in contrast to the basic rules applying, subject to any advanced rules, to all models. You've simply misunderstood it completely.

That statement necessarily must apply to Unit Types, as they are something that differentiates specific types of models from being normal Infantry models.

The advanced rules for movement for the various unit types are contained in the Unit Types section.

This is a 100% fabricated statement by you.
The only location we are given for Advanced Rules.
Is the Army List Entry's.

That is it.

The words "Unit Types" never appears in the basic vs advanced terminology.

Where are you directed to consider all unit types are advanced rules?

Ceann wrote:

The advanced rules for movement for the various unit types are contained in the Unit Types section.

This is a 100% fabricated statement by you.
The only location we are given for Advanced Rules.
Is the Army List Entry's.

That's not correct at all.

The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.

The Army List Entry only indicates what advanced rules a specific model has. Army List Entries might themselves contain the advanced rules but most often will not. The advanced rules can be located anywhere in the BRB or in any 40k publication.

This is what I mean by you quoting rules and then saying something that does not follow from those rules quotes. Stick to what the rules say!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:

The words "Unit Types" never appears in the basic vs advanced terminology.

Where are you directed to consider all unit types are advanced rules?

Ceann wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:

Ceann wrote:
What information do I need to provide to you, in order for you consider my point of view?

That I am offering a counter-argument in direct reference to what you're saying evidences that I am considering your point of view. Could you please respond to my counter-point suggesting that all models simply having a unit type is the basic rule, while the specific unit types themselves apply advanced rules?

Indeed, it seem to me this is the only way we can resolve the following quote:

"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."

Because if being a Bike, Swarm or Tank model is a basic rule, it cannot apply as an advanced rule as we are told above. It also accords with the rules telling us all basic rules are found in the Core Rules section, because that too would not work if the actual rules for Unit Types were found outside of the Core Rules section (which of course they are not).

Note that the line you are quoting talks about SPECIFIC MODELS, not Units.
Why are we taking a line that talks about models and conflating it to Units?

1) Because units are made up of models.
2) Unit Type rules are applied to the models.
3) The majority of Unit Type rules address their affects on the models, not the unit.
4) And then there's:

In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model falls into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile, you’ll be able to find that information in the relevant codex or Army List Entry.

You are taking the name of the rule group "Unit Type" far too literally.

Ceann wrote:
That phrase is just descriptive, I would say it implies special rules, options and wargear that are available to specific models in a unit. For example if you have a unit of infantry and an IC joins who has shroud, they would gain shroud, because of a specific model. But if the IC joined a unit that had shroud, he would gain it. The different being the ability being sourced from a unit or sourced from an individual model. In each circumstance if you nearly kill the entire unit, shroud is still there, but in the other if you just kill the IC, it goes away.

It does indeed imply Special Rules, sometimes explicit, sometimes subtly in a Wargear, sometimes as an optional purchase of a Special Rule or Wargear. Universal Special Rules are Advanced Rules as they sure as heck are not basic rules, by their very definition. Nor are the Universal Special Rules being Codex Rules.

Models are affected by things that affect their unit. That's how Blind, Stubborn, and Shrouded work. A unit that comes with Shrouded is full of models with the Shrouded Special Rule. Indeed, Shrouded requires at least one model have this Special Rule in order to work. If the unit and not the models had the Special Rule, then Shrouded does nothing for them. Shrouded also has to affect the models, because only models take Cover Saves, not units.

Mr. Shine

Get together with me sir please.

What would be a not normal infantry model?
It doesn't say a NON infantry model.
A not normal infantry model, would be a squad sergeant. Or an Independent Character.

The physical page 155 of the BRB states.
This section contains a collection of advanced rules, weaponry and abilities.
We have 3 sub sections in this section.
Special rules, weaponry, and psyker powers.
This means that all advanced rules are special rules.


Please note these two pieces of information.

BRB Page 156.
1. A Compendium of Special Rules
We’ve presented them all in a single section to make your life easier when trying to track down the effect of a particular special rule.

2. Data sheet point reference 9. Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here. Special rules that are unique to models in that unit are described in full here, whilst others are detailed either in the Appendix of this book or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.


Now consider this Basic vs advanced tells us...

1. Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex. Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.

We have in the Basic vs Advanced section, specific wording telling us to look at the Army List Entires to find advanced rules. The index for advanced rules in the BRB tells us to look at page 13 which is advanced vs basic.
Nowhere in the basic vs advanced section are we told to apply rules ourselves to the Unit Types section. This is assumed.

The special rules section, which is called advanced rules on the Appendix splash page, has a statement that confirms all special rules in the BRB are contained there and the Army List Entry confirms that per the above I quoted. We have clear information all advanced and special rules within the BRB are located in the Appendix.

It is therefore impossible for any advanced rules to be in Unit Types section.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charistoph wrote:

Ceann wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:

Ceann wrote:
What information do I need to provide to you, in order for you consider my point of view?

That I am offering a counter-argument in direct reference to what you're saying evidences that I am considering your point of view. Could you please respond to my counter-point suggesting that all models simply having a unit type is the basic rule, while the specific unit types themselves apply advanced rules?

Indeed, it seem to me this is the only way we can resolve the following quote:

"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."

Because if being a Bike, Swarm or Tank model is a basic rule, it cannot apply as an advanced rule as we are told above. It also accords with the rules telling us all basic rules are found in the Core Rules section, because that too would not work if the actual rules for Unit Types were found outside of the Core Rules section (which of course they are not).

Note that the line you are quoting talks about SPECIFIC MODELS, not Units.
Why are we taking a line that talks about models and conflating it to Units?

1) Because units are made up of models.
2) Unit Type rules are applied to the models.
3) The majority of Unit Type rules address their affects on the models, not the unit.
4) And then there's:

In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model falls into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile, you’ll be able to find that information in the relevant codex or Army List Entry.

You are taking the name of the rule group "Unit Type" far too literally.

Ceann wrote:
That phrase is just descriptive, I would say it implies special rules, options and wargear that are available to specific models in a unit. For example if you have a unit of infantry and an IC joins who has shroud, they would gain shroud, because of a specific model. But if the IC joined a unit that had shroud, he would gain it. The different being the ability being sourced from a unit or sourced from an individual model. In each circumstance if you nearly kill the entire unit, shroud is still there, but in the other if you just kill the IC, it goes away.

It does indeed imply Special Rules, sometimes explicit, sometimes subtly in a Wargear, sometimes as an optional purchase of a Special Rule or Wargear. Universal Special Rules are Advanced Rules as they sure as heck are not basic rules, by their very definition. Nor are the Universal Special Rules being Codex Rules.

Models are affected by things that affect their unit. That's how Blind, Stubborn, and Shrouded work. A unit that comes with Shrouded is full of models with the Shrouded Special Rule. Indeed, Shrouded requires at least one model have this Special Rule in order to work. If the unit and not the models had the Special Rule, then Shrouded does nothing for them. Shrouded also has to affect the models, because only models take Cover Saves, not units.

What do you mean I am taking Unit Type too literally?

The line you commented on that was DIRECTLY FROM THE BRB. I didnt make that statement I quoted it.
So if you think the BRB is taking Unit Type very literally then, I agree with it.

Ceann wrote:
The advanced rules for movement for the various unit types are contained in the Unit Types section.

This is a 100% fabricated statement by you.
The only location we are given for Advanced Rules.
Is the Army List Entry's.

That is it.

You are in error. They are indicated on the Army List Entry, not defined. Unit Types are indicated on the Army List Entry, are they not?

Edit: I should also point out that this statement of indication does not mean that is the only place one will find these things. You are far to concerned by restricting things by location without any authority to do so.

Ceann wrote:
The words "Unit Types" never appears in the basic vs advanced terminology.

Where are you directed to consider all unit types are advanced rules?

Well, aside from Infantry, they are not listed as Basic Rules.

Aside from Infantry, Unit Types different from Infantry are specifically listed as being Advanced Rules in the paragraph which defines Advanced Rules.

So, the better question is, with so many statements which tells us that Infantry follow Basic Rules and anything that differentiates something from Infantry in the rulebook is Advanced Rules, why should I NOT consider Unit Types as Advanced Rules?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:
What do you mean I am taking Unit Type too literally?

The line you commented on that was DIRECTLY FROM THE BRB. I didnt make that statement I quoted it.
So if you think the BRB is taking Unit Type very literally then, I agree with it.

That "Unit Type" only applies to "units", and not "models". At least, that is how you have been presenting this argument.

Ceann wrote:
Mr. Shine

Get together with me sir please.

What would be a not normal infantry model?
It doesn't say a NON infantry model.
A not normal infantry model, would be a squad sergeant. Or an Independent Character.

But it doesn't say, "because it is a not normal Infantry model". It says, "because it is not a normal Infantry model".

The former would apply only to Infantry models, which are not of the normal type. The latter would apply to anything that is not a normal Infantry model, which includes non-Infantry type models.

So, the better question is, with so many statements which tells us that Infantry follow Basic Rules and anything that differentiates something from Infantry in the rulebook is Advanced Rules, why should I NOT consider Unit Types as Advanced Rules?



1. Other Important Information
In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section.

Unit Types are specifically mentioned in core rules, if a unit type was not a basic rule it cannot be mentioned here as the Core Rules section contains ALL basic rules.

2. Vehicle Characteristics
In the Warhammer 40,000 universe, there are many tanks, war machines and other combat vehicles. Vehicle characteristics are described in the vehicles section.

Still in the core rules.

3. Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules
for morale.

If the Unit Type's contain anything pertaining to movement, shooting, close combat etc basic rules. Then they must be basic rules.

4. THE MOVEMENT PHASE
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.

Not 6", their maximum value, basic rule.

5. MOVEMENT DISTANCE
Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase. This represents most creatures...

Keyword MOST CREATURES. This is never stated to be a required standard movement speed.

6.Different Movement Distances Within a Unit
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains
in unit coherency (see below).

Again, maximum movement, not 6".

6" is never declared the basic movement standard.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is the part all of you guys are getting stuck on...

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).

What do a special kind of weapon, an unusual skill, because they are different from their fellows or because they are not normal infantry models..... ALL have in common.

Well we have a weapon and a skill, so it can't be Unit Types.
The rest of the descriptors would imply a model or models, but a weapon and a skill don't apply there making an application of the ENTIRE statement to be inaccurate.

But wait...
What if we applied that statement to special rules.
You know the section labled as advanced rules in the Appendix?

Does a special kind of weapon have a special rule?
Melta, Get's Hot

Do we have unusual skills that are special skills that regenerate? IWND, FNP

Because they are different from their fellows? IC

Or because they are not normal infantry models? Swarm, special rule, bike, tank, relentless, special rules.

Do normal infantry models have any special rules?
No.
Zero.
Not a single one.
Plain jane vanilla as possible unit.


If you think applying "advanced rules" which state they can be found in Army List Entry's which have a specific field for Special Rules, noted in the Appendix as Advanced Rules, makes more sense to unit types than to special rules then I am not sure how much more clear I can make it.

If anything my explanation accounts for the entire paragraph a lot better than cherry picking a sentence out of it and turning it red.

Esp when we have a rule stating that movement, assault, shooting and morale are basic rules unless stated otherwise. No one stated otherwise.

Ceann wrote:
So, the better question is, with so many statements which tells us that Infantry follow Basic Rules and anything that differentiates something from Infantry in the rulebook is Advanced Rules, why should I NOT consider Unit Types as Advanced Rules?



1. Other Important Information
In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section.

Unit Types are specifically mentioned in core rules, if a unit type was not a basic rule it cannot be mentioned here as the Core Rules section contains ALL basic rules.

2. Vehicle Characteristics
In the Warhammer 40,000 universe, there are many tanks, war machines and other combat vehicles. Vehicle characteristics are described in the vehicles section.

Still in the core rules.

3. Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules
for morale.

If the Unit Type's contain anything pertaining to movement, shooting, close combat etc basic rules. Then they must be basic rules.

4. THE MOVEMENT PHASE
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.

Not 6", their maximum value, basic rule.

5. MOVEMENT DISTANCE
Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase. This represents most creatures...

Keyword MOST CREATURES. This is never stated to be a required standard movement speed.

6.Different Movement Distances Within a Unit
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains
in unit coherency (see below).

Again, maximum movement, not 6".

6" is never declared the basic movement standard.

'Mentioning' does not entail 'containing'.

The advanced rules for movement for the various unit types are contained in the Unit Types section. All basic rules are contained in the Core Rules section.



You are trying to magically relocate rules by just having a term mentioned in the Core Rules section. Mentioning does not change where the rules are contained.

Skyborne, an advanced rule for movement, is in the Unit Types section. It doesn't magically relocate to be contained in the Core Rules section because 'unit type' is mentioned or 'movement' is mentioned or 'certain other types' is mentioned.







Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann,

Since you keep abusing the rules, let me remind the thread what a properly supported argument looks like.

This is the how we determine which rule is which

1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.

2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.



The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.

Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.

The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.


3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.

All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.

It's going to be sad when in a couple of months 8th drops and all this wonderful debate becomes completely pointless and meaningless.