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PAGE 18 BRB.

Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book (pg61-71).

In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.

Ceann wrote:
Everything you just said is irrelevant Charistoph.
Regardless of the words you want to gather from deconstruction what the rule says.
IT has the SPECIFIC page numbers.

Before your "models can move 6" is even mentioned, as a whisper.
We are told that those pages apply to the basic rules of movement.

Movement Distance is not a whisper. It is direct, clear statement as part of the normal flow of the rules. It is not separated out in a break-out box. It is not noted in parentheses or by commas. It is a very specific statement. You talk about cherry-picking, here is a good example of doing so.

Again, Movement Distance itself, which is concerned with Distance, does not direct us to review the Unit Types. How a unit moves does not translate to distance.

 doctortom wrote:
Ceann, for more evidence that you are dealing with advanced rules in the Unit Types section, let's consider the Bikes and Jetbikes section. Ir leads off with Armoured Steed rules, which are separate from the Special Rules section for Bikes and Jetbikes. We are told that they get a +1 toughness (included in profile for a unit that already gets them as wargear), that they cannot go to ground and that they cannot be pinned.

The toughness increase modifies (overrides) the basic stat. Not being able to go to ground and not being able to be pinned override the basic rules for going to ground (pinning refers you back to the basic rules for going to ground). Since you are overriding the Go to Ground rule with this rule, it has to be an advanced rule.

Incorrect.

Bike Units have the Relentless Special Rule as notated in the Unit Type profile.
A bike is a piece of wargear, which you will find located in the Army List Entry for Units.
The codex rules for a bike will tell you that you need to increase the toughness in circumstances where applicable.
Page 8 gives wargear permission to modify values, as a basic rule.

Ceann wrote:

This is 100% disingenuous.

It says... SO FAR, they have discussed all the basic rule as they PERTAIN TO INFANTRY.
What does "So far" mean? (of a trend that seems likely to continue) up to this time.
TO CONTINUE.
What does "pertain to" mean? related, or applicable

People are cherry picking specific terms and words and ignoring the others.

None of this is disingenous. Let's go back to basics. The main rulbeook tells us the Core Rules give us all the basic rules we need. Do you agree with this? If so, where do you claim the core rules section ends? While accusing people of cherry picking some things and ignoring others, you seem to be cherry picking certain statements, such as you do here, while ignoring other basic statements (such as the core rules section containing "all" the basic rules we need. If you can't properly define where the section ends - and you haven't yet, there's no possibility of trying to come to an agreement on anything.

Ceann wrote:
PAGE 18 BRB.

Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book (pg61-71).

In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.

Still no reference to find that distance in this location. Nor does it counter what is stated in Movement Distance.

 Charistoph wrote:

Ceann wrote:
Everything you just said is irrelevant Charistoph.
Regardless of the words you want to gather from deconstruction what the rule says.
IT has the SPECIFIC page numbers.

Before your "models can move 6" is even mentioned, as a whisper.
We are told that those pages apply to the basic rules of movement.

Movement Distance is not a whisper. It is direct, clear statement as part of the normal flow of the rules. It is not separated out in a break-out box. It is not noted in parentheses or by commas. It is a very specific statement. You talk about cherry-picking, here is a good example of doing so.

Again, Movement Distance itself, which is concerned with Distance, does not direct us to review the Unit Types. How a unit moves does not translate to distance.

Stop cherry picking, read the ENTIRE SECTION for the movement phase.

You asked for something that referenced the unit types pages specifically. I PROVIDED THAT with page numbers in the dead tree version of BRB.
Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.

Now you claim it doesn't mention movement, because apparently me pointing out exactly what you asked for did not meet your criteria.
THE NEXT SENTENCE states.

In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.

So now we have exact page numbers referenced in The Movement Phase and permission to move past 6".





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Still no reference on how to find this?

Go to pages 61-71.

Page 67 BRB

MOVEMENT
Beasts can move up to 12" in the Movement phase. Beasts are not slowed by difficult terrain (even when charging) and automatically pass Dangerous Terrain tests.

Holy hotdogs! It says movement.
I wonder what it means.
It says Movement Phase, is movement phase a core rule?

Ceann wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Ceann, for more evidence that you are dealing with advanced rules in the Unit Types section, let's consider the Bikes and Jetbikes section. Ir leads off with Armoured Steed rules, which are separate from the Special Rules section for Bikes and Jetbikes. We are told that they get a +1 toughness (included in profile for a unit that already gets them as wargear), that they cannot go to ground and that they cannot be pinned.

The toughness increase modifies (overrides) the basic stat. Not being able to go to ground and not being able to be pinned override the basic rules for going to ground (pinning refers you back to the basic rules for going to ground). Since you are overriding the Go to Ground rule with this rule, it has to be an advanced rule.

Incorrect.

Bike Units have the Relentless Special Rule as notated in the Unit Type profile.
A bike is a piece of wargear, which you will find located in the Army List Entry for Units.
The codex rules for a bike will tell you that you need to increase the toughness in circumstances where applicable.
Page 8 gives wargear permission to modify values, as a basic rule.

I...wow.
Armoured Steed, page 63.
"Bike and Jetbike riders benefit from an increase to their Toughness characteristic by 1."
That doesn't mention any kind of wargear. Bikes and jet bikes are unit types that confer a +1T bonus.
Bikes can also be wargear as stated right after that, in which case the bonus is already applied when they come with it.
"If the Bike or Jetbike is part of the model's standard wargear, this bonus is already included on it's profile."

Ceann wrote:
Stop cherry picking, read the ENTIRE SECTION for the movement phase.

You asked for something that referenced the unit types pages specifically. I PROVIDED THAT with page numbers in the dead tree version of BRB.
Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.

Now you claim it doesn't mention movement, because apparently me pointing out exactly what you asked for did not meet your criteria.
THE NEXT SENTENCE states.

In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.

So now we have exact page numbers referenced in The Movement Phase and permission to move past 6".

You are cherry-picking what you are listening to what I am saying. Quite disingenuous.

I said Movement Distance does not refer to Unit Types, not the Movement Section. What other portion of the Movement Phase defines Movement Distance in the Movement Phase?

Ceann wrote:
Still no reference on how to find this?

Go to pages 61-71.

Page 67 BRB

MOVEMENT
Beasts can move up to 12" in the Movement phase. Beasts are not slowed by difficult terrain (even when charging) and automatically pass Dangerous Terrain tests.

Holy hotdogs! It says movement.
I wonder what it means.
It says Movement Phase, is movement phase a core rule?

So anything that refers itself to something in the core rules is a basic rule? I missed that definition.in Basic vs Advanced.

Nor does that change the double standard of considering Zooming Advanced for its Movement, but not Beasts.

Ceann wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Ceann, for more evidence that you are dealing with advanced rules in the Unit Types section, let's consider the Bikes and Jetbikes section. Ir leads off with Armoured Steed rules, which are separate from the Special Rules section for Bikes and Jetbikes. We are told that they get a +1 toughness (included in profile for a unit that already gets them as wargear), that they cannot go to ground and that they cannot be pinned.

The toughness increase modifies (overrides) the basic stat. Not being able to go to ground and not being able to be pinned override the basic rules for going to ground (pinning refers you back to the basic rules for going to ground). Since you are overriding the Go to Ground rule with this rule, it has to be an advanced rule.

Incorrect.

Bike Units have the Relentless Special Rule as notated in the Unit Type profile.
A bike is a piece of wargear, which you will find located in the Army List Entry for Units.
The codex rules for a bike will tell you that you need to increase the toughness in circumstances where applicable.
Page 8 gives wargear permission to modify values, as a basic rule.

Bike being a piece of wargear is irrelevant. They can define something as a bike unit, or a jump pack unit, or a jet pack unit, without it actually having wargear.

Let's go for something else then. Monstrous Creatures - They have a rule that lets them shoot two weapons per shooting phase, not just one weapon. That overrides normal shooting rules of firing one weapon. Therfore, it is an advanced rule.

Flying Monstrous Creatures - everything about flight modes are advanced rules. Gliding, it moves as a jump infantry unit (note that it does NOT have to be a piece of wargear making it a flying monstrous creature). Swooping is chock full of rules. Grounded test rules are not in the basic rules section. Not tank shocking a swooping FMC is an advance rule. These are all separate from the special rules.

Vehicles - chock full of its own special rules, not the least of which is how to handle "to wound" on vehicles, which does not go by normal vehicles rules. You can buy a vehicle as a unit, not just as a piece of wargear.

 Roknar wrote:

Ceann wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Ceann, for more evidence that you are dealing with advanced rules in the Unit Types section, let's consider the Bikes and Jetbikes section. Ir leads off with Armoured Steed rules, which are separate from the Special Rules section for Bikes and Jetbikes. We are told that they get a +1 toughness (included in profile for a unit that already gets them as wargear), that they cannot go to ground and that they cannot be pinned.

The toughness increase modifies (overrides) the basic stat. Not being able to go to ground and not being able to be pinned override the basic rules for going to ground (pinning refers you back to the basic rules for going to ground). Since you are overriding the Go to Ground rule with this rule, it has to be an advanced rule.

Incorrect.

Bike Units have the Relentless Special Rule as notated in the Unit Type profile.
A bike is a piece of wargear, which you will find located in the Army List Entry for Units.
The codex rules for a bike will tell you that you need to increase the toughness in circumstances where applicable.
Page 8 gives wargear permission to modify values, as a basic rule.

I...wow.
Armoured Steed, page 63.
"Bike and Jetbike riders benefit from an increase to their Toughness characteristic by 1."
That doesn't mention any kind of wargear. Bikes and jet bikes are unit types that confer a +1T bonus.
Bikes can also be wargear as stated right after that, in which case the bonus is already applied.
"If the Bike or Jetbike is part of the model's standard wargear, this bonus is already included on it's profile."

It doesn't?

What unit are you talking about?

Space Marines on bikes?
I can tell you that with a 100% certantity that if I open my SM codex and go to that squad it will list a bike under their wargear.
Advanced Rules can be applied on the Army List Entry.

If i have a unit and a SINGLE MODEL, you know a SPECIFIC MODEL, in the unit purchases a bike.
Then THAT MODEL will have the bonus. Making it an advanced rule.

Take chaos bikers. They have the "bike" unit type as well as a chaos bike in their wargear.
A chaos bike changes the unit type to bike, which in this case doies nothing as they already are bikers, explaining their T5.
A chaos lord however can purchase a bike, changing his type from infantry to bike and as a result giving him the +1T for being of the bike type. The chaos bike wargear does NOT add +1T, it merely changes the unit type.

I want to throw another of your questions back at you, Ceann, because I am genuinely curious. Do YOU see a storm bolter as basic or advanced rules?

Ceann wrote:
It doesn't?

What unit are you talking about?

Space Marines on bikes?
I can tell you that with a 100% certantity that if I open my SM codex and go to that squad it will list a bike under their wargear.
Advanced Rules can be applied on the Army List Entry.

If i have a unit and a SINGLE MODEL, you know a SPECIFIC MODEL, in the unit purchases a bike.
Then THAT MODEL will have the bonus. Making it an advanced rule.

The Codex Bike Squad does not have a Wargear called simply "Bike". It has a Wargear called "Space Marine Bike".

The reason for this is two-fold.
1) Space Marine Bikes also provide a Twin-linked Bolter. This is above and beyond what the Unit Type will provide.
2) Several Infantry Characters can purchase this Wargear as an option. The Wargear handles the conversion from Infantry to Bike Unit Types.

 Charistoph wrote:

Ceann wrote:
It doesn't?

What unit are you talking about?

Space Marines on bikes?
I can tell you that with a 100% certantity that if I open my SM codex and go to that squad it will list a bike under their wargear.
Advanced Rules can be applied on the Army List Entry.

If i have a unit and a SINGLE MODEL, you know a SPECIFIC MODEL, in the unit purchases a bike.
Then THAT MODEL will have the bonus. Making it an advanced rule.

The Codex Bike Squad does not have a Wargear called simply "Bike". It has a Wargear called "Space Marine Bike".

The reason for this is two-fold.
1) Space Marine Bikes also provide a Twin-linked Bolter. This is above and beyond what the Unit Type will provide.
2) Several Infantry Characters can purchase this Wargear as an option. The Wargear handles the conversion from Infantry to Bike Unit Types.

Likewise, the Eldar (Craftworld or Dark) do not purchase "jetbike", they purchase a specific warbike. An autarch, buying that changes his unit type to jetbike.

 doctortom wrote:

Ceann wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Ceann, for more evidence that you are dealing with advanced rules in the Unit Types section, let's consider the Bikes and Jetbikes section. Ir leads off with Armoured Steed rules, which are separate from the Special Rules section for Bikes and Jetbikes. We are told that they get a +1 toughness (included in profile for a unit that already gets them as wargear), that they cannot go to ground and that they cannot be pinned.

The toughness increase modifies (overrides) the basic stat. Not being able to go to ground and not being able to be pinned override the basic rules for going to ground (pinning refers you back to the basic rules for going to ground). Since you are overriding the Go to Ground rule with this rule, it has to be an advanced rule.

Incorrect.

Bike Units have the Relentless Special Rule as notated in the Unit Type profile.
A bike is a piece of wargear, which you will find located in the Army List Entry for Units.
The codex rules for a bike will tell you that you need to increase the toughness in circumstances where applicable.
Page 8 gives wargear permission to modify values, as a basic rule.

Bike being a piece of wargear is irrelevant. They can define something as a bike unit, or a jump pack unit, or a jet pack unit, without it actually having wargear.

Let's go for something else then. Monstrous Creatures - They have a rule that lets them shoot two weapons per shooting phase, not just one weapon. That overrides normal shooting rules of firing one weapon. Therfore, it is an advanced rule.

Flying Monstrous Creatures - everything about flight modes are advanced rules. Gliding, it moves as a jump infantry unit (note that it does NOT have to be a piece of wargear making it a flying monstrous creature). Swooping is chock full of rules. Grounded test rules are not in the basic rules section. Not tank shocking a swooping FMC is an advance rule. These are all separate from the special rules.

Vehicles - chock full of its own special rules, not the least of which is how to handle "to wound" on vehicles, which does not go by normal vehicles rules. You can buy a vehicle as a unit, not just as a piece of wargear.

Really? Lets check.

What shooting rule is a MC breaking?

SELECT ANOTHER WEAPON
After the attacks from the currently selected weapon have been completely resolved, if the firing unit is equipped with a differently named shooting weapon that has yet to fire, you can now select it and shoot with it at the same target unit. This is resolved in exactly the same way as the first weapon you selected, but you may now find that due to the casualties you inflicted that there are now fewer models in the target unit in range.

Looks to me like per the Core Rules he is 100% allowed to shoot two weapons.

Ok... FMC now.

Say it uses the jump rules, ok.

MOVEMENT PHASE
If a Jump model uses its jump pack (or equivalent) in the Movement phase, it can move up to 12".

Says movement phase, looks like a basic rule to me.
Per Core Rules - In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Ceann wrote:
It doesn't?

What unit are you talking about?

Space Marines on bikes?
I can tell you that with a 100% certantity that if I open my SM codex and go to that squad it will list a bike under their wargear.
Advanced Rules can be applied on the Army List Entry.

If i have a unit and a SINGLE MODEL, you know a SPECIFIC MODEL, in the unit purchases a bike.
Then THAT MODEL will have the bonus. Making it an advanced rule.

The Codex Bike Squad does not have a Wargear called simply "Bike". It has a Wargear called "Space Marine Bike".

The reason for this is two-fold.
1) Space Marine Bikes also provide a Twin-linked Bolter. This is above and beyond what the Unit Type will provide.
2) Several Infantry Characters can purchase this Wargear as an option. The Wargear handles the conversion from Infantry to Bike Unit Types.

Likewise, the Eldar (Craftworld or Dark) do not purchase "jetbike", they purchase a specific warbike. An autarch, buying that changes his unit type to jetbike.

Excellent.

And buying items is part of advanced rules, located on the Army List Entry, in the case you are referring to A SPECIFIC MODEL, which is detailed in basic vs advanced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Roknar wrote:
Take chaos bikers. They have the "bike" unit type as well as a chaos bike in their wargear.
A chaos bike changes the unit type to bike, which in this case doies nothing as they already are bikers, explaining their T5.
A chaos lord however can purchase a bike, changing his type from infantry to bike and as a result giving him the +1T for being of the bike type. The chaos bike wargear does NOT add +1T, it merely changes the unit type.

Yes! You are getting it now.

So you see in basic vs advanced, this would be a case where it is referencing a SPECIFIC MODEL instead of a Unit.
If the Chaos Lord who bought a bike joins a unit, the bike is specific to him.

In a Bike Unit, all of the models have bikes.

If a chaos lord without a bike, joined a bike unit, he would not gain +1.

So when basic vs advanced it is talking about something a SPECIFIC model has.
All advanced rules for a unit are applied in it's Army List Entry.

I don't even know what argument you are trying to make right now as you keep switching topics when faced with the facts.

I am attempting to contest various "one liners" that people seem to think validate this idea that all Unit Types are advanced rules.

So I guess the question is WHY do I think this?

Because all of the rules in the unit types section, pertain to, how those types of units take actions during those phases.
No rules that are introduced in the Unit Types section contradict anything in the core rules. In order for a rule to be an advanced rule, it has to follow the same requirement as a special rule, which is that it must be BREAKING a rule.

1.
A beast moving 12" is not breaking a rule. It is stated in the core rules section that units may move their maximum value. No rule is being broken.

2.
Choosing a weapon is a basic rule.

No one is on here arguing that Lasguns and Bolters are advanced rules. Because they aren't.

The option to choose a weapon, lets you pick a weapon from the list of weapons your unit has to use. Just like "movement" is letting you pick a movement from the movement options available to you.

Unit type merely defines what options you have, it does not introduce any new rules.
A unit type is no different than a weapon type. Both are basic rules.

Psyker powers are basic rules, choosing which branch of powers is in the back of the book, it however doesn't make them advanced rules, it is simply the location of the rules that apply to a particular type of powers.

Just like unit type discusses the core rules as they apply to those types of units.

Infantry were used as they are the least complicated unit type, to explain how the core rules function in action.
The statement that all of the basic rules are in the core rules section still remains true.
The Unit Types section is the "Weaponry" section for units.

Weapons have, assault, heavy, bombs, ordnance etc.
Units have, infantry, vehicle, MC, etc.

Ceann wrote:
Really? Lets check.

What shooting rule is a MC breaking?

SELECT ANOTHER WEAPON
After the attacks from the currently selected weapon have been completely resolved, if the firing unit is equipped with a differently named shooting weapon that has yet to fire, you can now select it and shoot with it at the same target unit. This is resolved in exactly the same way as the first weapon you selected, but you may now find that due to the casualties you inflicted that there are now fewer models in the target unit in range.

Looks to me like per the Core Rules he is 100% allowed to shoot two weapons.

Look up More Than One Weapon in the Weapon section.

Ceann wrote:
Ok... FMC now.

Say it uses the jump rules, ok.

MOVEMENT PHASE
If a Jump model uses its jump pack (or equivalent) in the Movement phase, it can move up to 12".

Says movement phase, looks like a basic rule to me.
Per Core Rules - In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.

Referring back to a Phase is not declaring itself to be Basic Rules. Please tell me where that is defined.

If we went by that, nothing would be and Advanced Rule except for List Building and Mission Rule, because every rule refers back to something in those areas.

Ceann wrote:
Excellent.

And buying items is part of advanced rules, located on the Army List Entry, in the case you are referring to A SPECIFIC MODEL, which is detailed in basic vs advanced.

Unit Type is also listed on the Army List Entry, by the way. And that is the only place a model can be defined as such.

Double standard.

Ceann wrote:
Yes! You are getting it now.

So you see in basic vs advanced, this would be a case where it is referencing a SPECIFIC MODEL instead of a Unit.
If the Chaos Lord who bought a bike joins a unit, the bike is specific to him.

In a Bike Unit, all of the models have bikes.

If a chaos lord without a bike, joined a bike unit, he would not gain +1.

So when basic vs advanced it is talking about something a SPECIFIC model has.
All advanced rules for a unit are applied in it's Army List Entry.

But that goes against your stance before now.

You have claimed that a Bike Character would become Infantry if it joined an Infantry unit.

Not to mention, the Unit Type is also defined for the specific models listed on the datasheet, so would then be an Advanced Rule.

But then, you are taking some of these phrases out to right field and declaring them to be the 3rd basemen.

Ceann wrote:

In order for a rule to be an advanced rule, it has to follow the same requirement as a special rule, which is that it must be BREAKING a rule.

Why? The description of advanced rules doesn't say this.
The advanced rules are things which are not in the core rules section. There is no other definition, stated or intended. The only difference between core and advanced is to make the simple things easy to understand for beginners. This is a game written for children, so they put the simpler stuff first.

Ceann wrote:
I am attempting to contest various "one liners" that people seem to think validate this idea that all Unit Types are advanced rules.

It doesn't help that you don't quote what you are responding to very well, this quoted post being a sample of that, and then you erroneously respond to someone else while we are are responding to your response.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

Ceann wrote:

In order for a rule to be an advanced rule, it has to follow the same requirement as a special rule, which is that it must be BREAKING a rule.

Why? The description of advanced rules doesn't say this.
The advanced rules are things which are not in the core rules section. There is no other definition, stated or intended. The only difference between core and advanced is to make the simple things easy to understand for beginners. This is a game written for children, so they put the simpler stuff first.

The definition of special rules does state this, though.

This is correct Charistoph.


If we went by that, nothing would be and Advanced Rule except for List Building and Mission Rule, because every rule refers back to something in those areas.


The only rules located in the Unit Types section are basic rules for those type and any special rules notated to them in their Special Rules section.

Advanced rules that apply to units can be found in Army List Entry's, not found in the BRB.

I have not claimed a Bike Character would become infantry if it joined an infantry unit. I claimed it would meet the criteria of Advanced Rules as they apply to a SPECIFIC model.

Which is the critera that you all have been trying to conflate to an entire unit "because it contains models" A unit containing models is still not a specific model. A specific model is a specific model.

If the unit is an infantry unit, it will always be an infantry unti.
Just like a bike unit with 12 IC's attached is still a bike unit.

Each of those 12 ADVANCED RULES SPECIFIC MODELS may have individual rules that apply to them as a model and not the unit.

Ceann wrote:

Ok... FMC now.

Say it uses the jump rules, ok.

MOVEMENT PHASE
If a Jump model uses its jump pack (or equivalent) in the Movement phase, it can move up to 12".

Says movement phase, looks like a basic rule to me.

And that's your problem. All basic movement rules are movement rules, but not all movement rules are basic rules.

Ceann wrote:
Per Core Rules - In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.

Which is 6" according to the FIRST SENTENCE under "MOVEMENT DISTANCES" - "Models move up to 6" in the movement phase.' Okay, we've established that...wait a minute, they don't move 6". The basic movement rule of 6" must have been OVERRIDDEN. It can't be a basic rule overriding it, it has to be an advance rule.

Once again, answer this question: Where does the Core Rules section end? We are told this section contains all the core rules. What section are Unit Rules in, the Core Rules? (answer - no, the Unit Rules section). So, any rules that contradict a basic rule when the rule is not in the core rule section must be an advanced rule.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

Ceann wrote:

In order for a rule to be an advanced rule, it has to follow the same requirement as a special rule, which is that it must be BREAKING a rule.

Why? The description of advanced rules doesn't say this.
The advanced rules are things which are not in the core rules section. There is no other definition, stated or intended. The only difference between core and advanced is to make the simple things easy to understand for beginners. This is a game written for children, so they put the simpler stuff first.

From basic vs advanced...

"""For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does
not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex.
Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence."""

A special rule is an advanced rule, as notated above.
If an advanced rule is a special rule, it must be breaking a rule in order to be an advanced rule.

A special rule is an advanced rule.

An advanced rule is not necessarily a special rule.

You are trying to treat all advanced rules as special rules, then. All special rules are advanced rules. Not all advanced rules are special rules.

There are no basic rules for the various unit types. That notion goes against the very definition of a basic rule.
Basic rules apply to ALL models. The rules for the various unit types only apply to those specific models as opposed to ALL models.
That makes the unit types advanced rules. Advanced rules that apply to all models of a given type.

So yes, they are a template for a rather large sub set of models,.
And applying to only a subset of ALL models makes those rules NOT basic rules.

 doctortom wrote:

Ceann wrote:

Ok... FMC now.

Say it uses the jump rules, ok.

MOVEMENT PHASE
If a Jump model uses its jump pack (or equivalent) in the Movement phase, it can move up to 12".

Says movement phase, looks like a basic rule to me.

And that's your problem. All basic movement rules are movement rules, but not all movement rules are basic rules.

Ceann wrote:
Per Core Rules - In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.

Which is 6" according to the FIRST SENTENCE under "MOVEMENT DISTANCES" - "Models move up to 6" in the movement phase.' Okay, we've established that...wait a minute, they don't move 6". The basic movement rule of 6" must have been OVERRIDDEN. It can't be a basic rule overriding it, it has to be an advance rule.

Once again, answer this question: Where does the Core Rules section end? We are told this section contains all the core rules. What section are Unit Rules in, the Core Rules? (answer - no, the Unit Rules section). So, any rules that contradict a basic rule when the rule is not in the core rule section must be an advanced rule.

And I will ask you as I have asked everyone else.

We have THREE statements from the CORE RULES - MOVEMENT PHASE section.

1.
For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by
far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section (pg61-71).
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to
their maximum movement distance.

2.
Movement Distance - Subsection- Different Movement Distances Within a Unit
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the
case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains
in unit coherency (see below).

3.
Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase.


1, 2 and 3, cannot ALL be correct.

On 1. it states we are going to talk about Infantry first and the rest LATER, with the page numbers and then on 3, it tells us 6". Clearly it is only talking about infantry because it just TOLD US it was going to tell us about infantry. It did not state that 6" is the defacto standard for movement, it said we would talk about the others later and included the page numbers.

I already explained that to you, several times. There is no conflict in the movement rules.

If there is no conflict in the movement rules, then a beast moving 12 isn't a conflict either.