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For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by
far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to
their maximum movement distance.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/21 23:22:44
Is the Calvary page located in the Core Rules section?
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/21 23:41:57
Happyjew wrote: Ceann, where in the "Core Rules" section, do the rules talk about how Calvary moves, and how far?
BRB Page 18.
Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section (pg61-71).
A Chariot will move normally for a vehicle of their type.
Who said anything about chariots? I want a specific quote from the Core Rules section that tells me how far a cavalry model can move. Don't give me a quote saying it's on another page. That does not tell me how far Cavalry can move. You said it is a basic rule, and ALL basic rules are found in the Core Rules section.
Oh sure. Sorry I thought you said Chariot, not Calvary.
Page 18 BRB.
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to
their maximum movement distance.
OK and where in the Core Rules does it state what that maximum movement is?
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
Ceann wrote: There is no maximum movement.
It states that for now they will explain how infantry work, being the most common unit you and the rest later.
Cool. So the Cavalry rules for movement are advanced rules then. They aren't in the Core Rules section.
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/22 00:00:02
Is the Calvary page located in the Core Rules section?
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
All unit type pages are located in the unit types section. Starting with infantry.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/21 23:59:23
1.
B and C contradict themselves.
B claims that all rules other than the universal special rules are basic rules.
C claims to that all basic rules are contained in the core rules section.
The core rules section only goes to page 59 while the USR start at page 155.
That leaves almost a hundred pages unaccounted for.
Is a lasgun a basic rule or an advanced rule?
It is neither, it USES basic rules or advanced rules.
Is Unit Type a basic rule, or an advanced rule?
It is neither, it USES basic rules or advanced rules.
The "hundred unaccounted for pages" are references for Unit Types. Which all use the basic rules found in core rules.
Just like the Weaponry section is a reference for weapons.
I was showing you how your your section division doesn't add up, what does that have to do with a lasgun?
What you just said still doesn't add up though. You said that all sections outside of the special rules section ARE basic rules, not that they use them. That's a difference.
Now you're saying they USE them. Moreover, what about all the other sections? Battlefield terrain, preparing for battle, etc? Those are also still unaccounted for.
[
Spoiler:
2.
A is false, as you yourself state in B.
If the list is not exhaustive, then the USR section can't possibly contain all the special rules.
Not sure what you mean by datasheet point 10, but if you're referring to the snippet in "basic versus advanced", then that's not at all what it says.
It's telling you that the army list entry lists what advanced rules apply to the unit, not where they are or what they do.
Also if A is true, then codices can't contain a single special rule since they are all in the USR section.
A is true. ??? I am quoting what the BRB STATES
B is also true. ??? I am quoting what the BRB STATES
C. is true.
D. is true.
I said it contains all special rules LOCATED IN THE BRB.
You say you don't know what datasheet point is, if you open any codex and look at the descriptor page for what sections of a data sheet pertain too, you will find that the special rules section of any data sheet will tell you where to find special rules. It agrees with the same terms located in the first page of the Special Rules section. We have the BRB itself and Codex telling us that any rules located in the BRB are located in the Special rules section. Any other special rules, such as Chapter Tactics, or Canticles, will be found in their own Codex, which they are. You need to finish reading the sentence, the sentence doesn't end on the word exhaustive.
The only special rules that exist are noted in their codex, or in the Special Rules section of the BRB. Nowhere else.
No. You state that the special rules section contains all the special rules while simultaneously not containing all the rules, that's impossible.
A non exhaustive list is a list containing a subset of items and as such cannot contain all items, in this case special rules.
Give me a page number in the BRB for this datasheet point 10. I can't find it.
Spoiler:
3.
B and C are a quotes from the BRB, what's your point here exactly?
If your saying that advanced rules can only exist to override basic rules, that's not what that quote is saying.
It says that, in the case of a an advanced rule conflicting with a basic rule, the advanced rule takes precedence, no more , no less.
As for D, what about any of the universal special rules that only affect the model possessing said special rule. That's several pages worth of rules in the BRB right there.
Are you saying that advanced rules are all special rules?
If you are, then all special rules are located in the special rules section of the BRB, thereby with the process of elimination, there are no advanced rules in the BRB.
Are advanced rules and special rules the same thing or something different?
You're the one saying that all advanced rules are completely contained within the special rules section.
You said earlier that everything that isn't a special rule is a basic rule.
And since everything else is a basic rule, that leaves the special rules as the only candidate for being an advanced rule.
Unless of course you are arguing that there isn't a single advanced rule in the BRB, in which case I wonder what you think a special rule is.
Ceann wrote: There is no maximum movement.
It states that for now they will explain how infantry work, being the most common unit you and the rest later.
Cool. So the Cavalry rules for movement are advanced rules then. They aren't in the Core Rules section.
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
Is a lasguns a basic rule or an advanced rule?
It is neither, it is a profile you use to make a shooting attack.
Is a unit type a basic rule or an advanced rule?
It is neither it is a profile you use for units.
Ceann wrote: There is no maximum movement.
It states that for now they will explain how infantry work, being the most common unit to you now and the rest later.
You're avoiding answering the question.
Happyjew asked you, "Where in the 'Core Rules' section, do the rules talk about how Calvary moves, and how far?"
The 'Core Rules' tells us, as you yourself quoted, that it will "just explain how squads of Infantry move".
Infantry are not Cavalry.
Further, "up to their maximum movement distance" doesn't actually tell us how far, so that is not an answer to the question.
The rules for Cavalry movement aren't found in the Core Rules section.
Cavalry rules aren't found at all in the Core Rules section, because the rules for Cavalry are not basic rules, and the same applies for other unit types, which are found in the Unit Types section.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/22 00:03:08
All unit type pages are located in the unit types section. Starting with infantry.
Cool. So again the Unit Types section is all advanced rules, as you admit.
Infantry, in the Unit Types section, is specifically mentioned as being contained in the Core Rules section, so you go there for the Infantry rules (which are basic rules btw).
Spoiler:
Infantry are the most common and dependable units in Warhammer 40,000. As the bulk of the rules are concerned with them, there are no additional rules to present here.
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/22 00:03:31
Ceann wrote: There is no maximum movement.
It states that for now they will explain how infantry work, being the most common unit to you now and the rest later.
So then the rules for how far Cavalry move is not in the Core Rules?
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
3. Because they are stated to in several areas, including in the definition of Advanced Rules. Why do you ignore these statements, besides the fact that they do not agree with your paradigm?
Disagree, I have quoted for you before, and the deadtree version has the page numbers, telling you where to find the movement rules for non-infantry types. The first page of the movement section explicitly explains it will be only discussing infantry now and will discuss the others later.
There are many times throughout the core rules section that specifically references the other unit types and that they will be discussed layer. You ignore all of these out of hand in favor of "6". You are doing, the very thing, you are accusing me of doing.
So it references another section. That doesn't necessarily make it part of the basic rules when everything else is calling them advanced rules.
The Infantry section also states that it follows the basic rules. Before that the advanced rules definition specifically calls out anything that diverges it from an Infantry model as being an advanced rule. If the unit type of the model changes, it is changed to an advanced ruleset.
4.Error. The statement, "Models move up to 6" in the Movement Phase" can be found in Movement Distance in the Movement Phase rules. No instructions can be found in the Movement Distance to refer to the Unit Type to find a model's movement range.
Disagree, same as 3. I will quote, please compare them.
THE MOVEMENT PHASE
"""For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section pg (61-71)."""
This statement takes place, FIRST THING, before Movement Distance is even mentioned.
"""So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game. However, whilst the definition of
Infantry is incredibly broad it’s not enough to capture the full variety, scope and splendor of a war-torn galaxy teeming with all manner of alien beasts. In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model falls into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile, you’ll be able to find that information in the relevant codex or Army List Entry."""
Notice some relevant words here " For the time being, So far, as pertains to infantry, incredibly broad its not enough, extension of the characteristic profile.
Nothing on the section you referenced ever states anything about Distance, just method. The page we are referencing is talking about distance. You want to know the difference between method and distance, look up the difference between Cavalry and Jet Pack and ignore the USRs.
And before all that advanced rules states that anything that diverges from the Infantry rules makes it an advanced rule.
5. No, you are changing the location of a statement here. The Unit Type section never indicates this as a general rule for Unit Types. The Movement Phase does state that different unit types move in different ways, but it never tells us how, much less tell us to refer to them for their Movement Distance.
Not sure what you mean, the statement I have quoted for the movement phase, is on the very first page of the movement phase, it exists even PRIOR to movement distance. We are told that they are going to explain the rules to us, using infantry.
Because you are putting authority on a reference instead of a definition. Which defines Unit Type movement, the Unit Type section or the Movement Phase section?
6. Except the definition of Advance Rules states otherwise. The introduction to Unit Types states otherwise. The only thing that is saying this is you.
I can tell you up down and sideways what the Advanced Rules state. They DO NOT state, consult the Unit Types section, pull out a rubber stamp called "Advanced Rules" and put it on every page.
It does indirectly, but nor does it need to. The specific statement you continue to ignore is, "Advanced rules apply to specific types of models... because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)." That's all part of the same sentence, I just truncated out the part that didn't deal with unit types.
If you see a model and its datasheet does not say, "Infantry", does it meet the requirements of the quoted sentence of Advanced rules?
Ceann wrote: 1.Can a rule be a basic rule and an advance rule, simultaneously?
No. The Infantry type is noted as not being an advanced rule as it follows all the basic rules.
Ceann wrote: 2. Why cannot a unit type, be to a unit profile, what wargear is, to a weapon profile. A combination of basic and advanced rules?
Because a unit type is a rule group that provides a collection of special rules for easy reference, it is not noted as being equipment or a physical object. It also does not help that Wargear can change a unit type, such as a Space Marine Bike.
What tells you that a unit type is like Wargear?
Ceann wrote: 3. Does an Iron Halo have basic rules, or advanced rules?
Codex rules. These are rules that are presented exclusively provided by the codex.
Ceann wrote: 4. Does a psyocculum have basic rules, or advanced rules?
Codex rules. These are rules that are presented exclusively provided by the codex.
Ceann wrote: 5. How do we determine which rules it carries?
- The rules for basic vs advanced only tell us about rules that apply to models and units.
As explained in Basic vs Advanced, the basic rules are those rules that cover Movement, Shooting, Morale, and Assault that normally affect all models, or as advanced rules states, anything a basic Infantry model would follow.
Advanced rules are those rules which make a model different from a basic Infantry model, just like the sentence states.
Special Rules are those abilities which change the main rules of the game. The main rules of the game are largely those an Infantry model would be following.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/22 00:13:39
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
It is neither, it is a profile you use to make a shooting attack.
Specific models equipped with lasguns are an advanced rule. Not all models are equipped with lasguns.
Ceann wrote: Is a unit type a basic rule or an advanced rule?
It is neither it is a profile you use for units.
Unit type is not a profile. How are you arriving at that conclusion? There is no rule to suggest that.
Infantry is a basic rule. Once you start dealing with specific Unit Types other than Infantry you have left the Core Rules section and therefore you are dealing with advanced rules.
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/22 00:11:03
Ceann wrote: And basic infantry have no baked in special rules. That is what it is talking about.
Not that calvary moves 12".
But that they have Fleet.
A vehicle or a bike, not because of how they move, but because the unit has relentless.
They are referencing the BAKED IN special rules on the unit types, not movement, assaulting, shooting, etc.
Is the rule that allows a cavalry model to move 12" located in the Core rules? Yes or no?
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
It is neither, it is a profile you use to make a shooting attack.
Specific models equipped with lasguns are an advanced rule. Not all models are equipped with lasguns.
Ceann wrote: Is a unit type a basic rule or an advanced rule?
It is neither it is a profile you use for units.
Unit type is not a profile. How are you arriving at that conclusion? There is no rule to suggest that.
Infantry is a basic rule. Once you start dealing with specific Unit Types other than Infantry you have left the Core Rules section and therefore you are dealing with advanced rules.
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
Wrong col. The first page of the movement phase tells you that they are going to start explaining with infantry because they are most common, not because they are the standard.
Your beloved unit type page for infantry is located in the unit types section along with all the others.
Wrong col. The first page of the movement phase tells you that they are going to start explaining with infantry because they are most common, not because they are the standard.
Your beloved unit type page for infantry is located in the unit types section along with all the others.
I guess you missed these parts.
So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game.
As the bulk of the rules are concerned with them, there are no additional rules to present here.
So plainly stated rules contradict your argument.
Your argument then is wholly invalidated.
Are you ready to concede?
The only thing you have successfully presented is that your argument is entirely against the rules and belongs in the Proposed Rules forum.
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/22 00:20:38
Ceann wrote: Is a storm bolter a basic rule or an advanced rule col?
When a model is equipped with a storm bolter it's an advanced rule. Not all models are equipped with storm bolters.
Spoiler:
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/22 00:24:07
Ceann wrote: And basic infantry have no baked in special rules. That is what it is talking about.
Not that calvary moves 12".
But that they have Fleet.
A vehicle or a bike, not because of how they move, but because the unit has relentless.
They are referencing the BAKED IN special rules on the unit types, not movement, assaulting, shooting, etc.
Having a model be a bike unit type is advanced rules.
What does Infantry state?
It follows all basic rules, with nothing additional noted for it.
What does being a Bike entail that separates it from Infantry?
Armoured Steed.
Movement.
2 sets of rules regarding interaction with Terrain, depending on the type of Bike.
Fall Back Moves.
Shooting.
Turbo-Boost.
And all that is not including the USRs of Hammer of Wrath, Jink, Relentless, and Very Bulky, or the Eldar Jet Bike rules. I'll not bother with the USRs, from here on out.
What does Cavalry List?
Movement.
Fall Back Moves.
What does Beast List?
Movement.
Fall Back Moves.
What does Jet Pack List?
Skyborne.
Thrust Move.
What does Character list?
2 Look Out, Sir rules.
Challenges.
What does the Vehicle list?
Characteristics.
Measuring Distances.
Movement Phase.
Psychic Phase.
Shooting Phase.
Line of Sight for Weapons.
Shooting and Assaulting a Vehicle which includes the Damage Table.
Obscured Vehicles, which addresses Cover Saves.
Squadrons.
And that's not going in to the numerous sub-types.
Need I go on?
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Ceann wrote: because storm bolter along with Las gun and Las cannon are found in the shooting phase section of the BRB.
So that makes them basic rules right?
Nope. What would make them basic rules is if all models were equipped with them.
Spoiler:
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The Core Rules section contains ALL the basic rules. But not all rules in the Core Rules section have to be basic rules.
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/22 00:27:37
Ceann wrote: And basic infantry have no baked in special rules. That is what it is talking about.
Not that calvary moves 12".
But that they have Fleet.
A vehicle or a bike, not because of how they move, but because the unit has relentless.
They are referencing the BAKED IN special rules on the unit types, not movement, assaulting, shooting, etc.
Having a model be a bike unit type is advanced rules.
What does Infantry state?
It follows all basic rules, with nothing additional noted for it.
What does being a Bike entail that separates it from Infantry?
Armoured Steed.
Movement.
2 sets of rules regarding interaction with Terrain, depending on the type of Bike.
Fall Back Moves.
Shooting.
Turbo-Boost.
And all that is not including the USRs of Hammer of Wrath, Jink, Relentless, and Very Bulky, or the Eldar Jet Bike rules. I'll not bother with the USRs, from here on out.
What does Cavalry List?
Movement.
Fall Back Moves.
What does Beast List?
Movement.
Fall Back Moves.
What does Jet Pack List?
Skyborne.
Thrust Move.
What does Character list?
2 Look Out, Sir rules.
Challenges.
What does the Vehicle list?
Characteristics.
Measuring Distances.
Movement Phase.
Psychic Phase.
Shooting Phase.
Line of Sight for Weapons.
Shooting and Assaulting a Vehicle which includes the Damage Table.
Obscured Vehicles, which addresses Cover Saves.
Squadrons.
And that's not going in to the numerous sub-types.
Need I go on?
Anything you have quoted, that is an action taken by a player, in the movement, shooting, assault, etc phases are a basic rule for that unit type for that phase. A thrust move is used when you would move. What does the first page of the movement phase say? They can move to their maximum value.
Are they moving? Yes. To their max value? Yes.
Then you are following the basic rules. What basic rule of the process of movement is being broken by a thrust move?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/22 00:33:23
Ceann, could you please answer this straightforward question?
Am I right in thinking your reason for believing unit type rules are basic rules is, at least in part (or in large part, or even entirely?) because of references to unit types being found within the Core Rules section, for example from 'Other Important Information':
"In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/22 00:49:56
Mr. Shine wrote: Ceann, could you please answer this straightforward question?
Am I right in thinking your reason for believing unit type rules are basic rules is, at least in part (or in large part, or even entirely?) because of references to unit types being found within the Core Rules section, for example from 'Other Important Information':
"In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section."
There are other such statements, that is one of them.
Ceann wrote: There are other such statements, that is one of them.
Why then don't you believe having an additional save of some kind, carrying one or more shooting or Melee weapons or having one or more special rules are basic rules?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/22 01:04:10
6" Movement is the Basic Rule in the Movement Phase for Unit Type Infantry:
All Unit Type Infantry have a maximum move of 6" barring any Advanced Rule that allows them to move more.
12" Movement is the Basic Rule for Unit Type Jump Infantry:
All Unit Type Jump Infantry have a maximum movement of 12" barring any Advanced Rule that allows them to move more.
This is across ALL Unit Types and a prime example of that is Logan Grimnar riding Stormrider, albeit not with the Movement phase, but in the Shooting phase and Assault phase.
Here we see that Stormrider has Unit Type Vehicle (Chariot, Open-topped). That means that it follows all the Basic Rules for Unit Type Vehicle (Chariot, Open-topped) for the Movement Phase, Shooting Phase, and Assault Phase. However then we have the entry for Stormrider;
Now wait a minute, Unit Type Vehicle (Chariot, Open-topped) Basic Rules do not allow their riders to make 4 additional Rending Strength 5 AP- Attacks in each Assault phase?!?!? And Unit Type Vehicle (Chariot, Open-topped) Basic Rules do not allow for a 4+ invulnerable or make all penetrating hits glancing?!?!? Oooohhh, that is because they are Advanced Rules that applies to this specific type of model aka Stormrider aka a non-infantry model.
You can run the same exact breakdown above of the Basic versus Advanced with Sammael from Codex Dark Angels, another non-infantry model or just about any model that fits the criteria set forth on page 13 Basic versus Advanced call-out box.
Now anticipating that there will be those of you saying that those are Special Rules, not so fast. Unit Type Vehicle (Chariot, Open-topped) have their Special Rules specifically spelled out in their entries, Jink and Hammer of Wrath, as do all the Unit Type entries.
Stormrider:
Uses Basic Rules and Special Rules that apply to all Unit Type Vehicle (Chariot, Open-topped). Uses Advanced Rules specific to model, Stormrider.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/22 01:03:59
Ceann wrote: There are other such statements, that is one of them.
Why then don't you believe having an additional save of some kind, carrying one or more shooting or Melee weapons or having one or more special rules are basic rules?
Special rules CANNOT be basic rules.
Special rules BREAK the rules.
Fleet allows you to move differently, regardless of the unit type.
Relentless allows you to shoot differently, regardless of the unit type.
Hammer of Wrath allows you to make additional attacks, regardless of the unit type.
Page 8 of the BRB.
WARGEAR is given permission to modify characteristics.
The rules for the shooting section have rules for multiple weapons.
Under "Select a Weapon"
If a model can shoot with more than one weapon in the same phase and it is equipped with two or more identically named weapons, it shoots with all the same named weapons when that weapon is selected..
Special Rules are special rules and are ALWAYS identified as special rules.
Each unit type has a section dedicated to what special rules apply to that unit type.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/22 01:09:51
