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Ceann wrote: Special rules CANNOT be basic rules.
Special rules BREAK the rules.
Fleet allows you to move differently, regardless of the unit type.
Relentless allows you to shoot differently, regardless of the unit type.
Hammer of Wrath allows you to make additional attacks, regardless of the unit type.
Page 8 of the BRB.
WARGEAR is given permission to modify characteristics.
The rules for the shooting section have rules for multiple weapons.
Under "Select a Weapon"
If a model can shoot with more than one weapon in the same phase and it is equipped with two or more identically named weapons, it shoots with all the same named weapons when that weapon is selected..
Special Rules are special rules and are ALWAYS identified as special rules.
Each unit type has a section dedicated to what special rules apply to that unit type.
Being told that wargear can modify characteristics isn't the same as a specific piece of wargear acting in a certain way being somehow a basic rule.
Phrased as you asked earlier, is an Iron Halo a basic or an advanced rule?
Didn't you agree earlier with Charistoph that having a storm bolter is an advanced rule? Please, be consistent.
6" Movement is the Basic Rule in the Movement Phase for Unit Type Infantry:
All Unit Type Infantry have a maximum move of 6" barring any Advanced Rule that allows them to move more.
12" Movement is the Basic Rule for Unit Type Jump Infantry:
All Unit Type Jump Infantry have a maximum movement of 12" barring any Advanced Rule that allows them to move more.
The only place we find basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Spoiler:
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
So the 12" movement that Jump Infantry have is an advanced rule.
In fact, all of the rules associated with any Unit Type that is not basic infantry are advanced rules.
When are you guys going to start adhering to plainly stated rules???
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/22 01:59:02
Ceann wrote: Special rules CANNOT be basic rules.
Special rules BREAK the rules.
Fleet allows you to move differently, regardless of the unit type.
Relentless allows you to shoot differently, regardless of the unit type.
Hammer of Wrath allows you to make additional attacks, regardless of the unit type.
Page 8 of the BRB.
WARGEAR is given permission to modify characteristics.
The rules for the shooting section have rules for multiple weapons.
Under "Select a Weapon"
If a model can shoot with more than one weapon in the same phase and it is equipped with two or more identically named weapons, it shoots with all the same named weapons when that weapon is selected..
Special Rules are special rules and are ALWAYS identified as special rules.
Each unit type has a section dedicated to what special rules apply to that unit type.
Being told that wargear can modify characteristics isn't the same as a specific piece of wargear acting in a certain way being somehow a basic rule.
Phrased as you asked earlier, is an Iron Halo a basic or an advanced rule?
Didn't you agree earlier with Charistoph that having a storm bolter is an advanced rule? Please, be consistent.
Sure, let me clarify for you.
An Iron Halo, modifys your save, which it is permitted to do.
An Iron Halo, is not a basic rule or an advanced rule, it is a piece of wargear, using the basic rule to modify stats.
What he said about the storm bolter was that it was NEITHER a basic rule, nor an advanced rule. Which I agreed with.
He stated that wargear has basic or advanced rules attached TO them. They themselves are not basic or advanced rules.
An example would be a Lasgun vs a Meltagun.
The Lasgun is only using basic rules.
The Meltagun has the Melta special rule.
Neither gun on its own is a basic or advanced rule, they have those added on to them based on their profile.
They both roll to hit against a vehicle the same, BUT when you go to roll to penetrate, this "Meltagun" gets an extra die roll. What gives?
It has the advanced rule Melta, breaking the rules to penetrate.
The Unit Type Infantry has no special rules attached to it.
The Unit Type Calvary has the Fleet special rule attached to it.
Both of those units use the same basic rules that dictate how they can move.
Both use the same basic rules that dictate how they shoot. etc etc.
A weapons profile determine what basic or advanced rules it is using.
Just like a Unit Types profile determines what basic or advanced rules it is using.
Per Basic vs Advanced """Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale."""
The basic rules tell you HOW to move, shoot, assault etc, not tell you what VALUES to use while doing so. The Unit Types tell you the values, just like weaponry tell you the profiles to use when "Choosing a Weapon".
Brother Ramses has done a better job of illustrating the point than have.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/22 02:03:50
6" Movement is the Basic Rule in the Movement Phase for Unit Type Infantry:
All Unit Type Infantry have a maximum move of 6" barring any Advanced Rule that allows them to move more.
12" Movement is the Basic Rule for Unit Type Jump Infantry:
All Unit Type Jump Infantry have a maximum movement of 12" barring any Advanced Rule that allows them to move more.
The only place we find basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Spoiler:
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
So the 12" movement that Jump Infantry have is an advanced rule.
In fact, all of the rules associated with any Unit Type that is not basic infantry are advanced rules.
When are you guys going to start adhering to plainly stated rules???
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
Typical col_impact response that does not even encompass the entire post or examples given. Let me see you supply your rationale to Stormrider.
An Iron Halo, modifys your save, which it is permitted to do.
An Iron Halo, is not a basic rule or an advanced rule, it is a piece of wargear, using the basic rule to modify stats.
What he said about the storm bolter was that it was NEITHER a basic rule, nor an advanced rule. Which I agreed with.
He stated that wargear has basic or advanced rules attached TO them. They themselves are not basic or advanced rules.
An example would be a Lasgun vs a Meltagun.
The Lasgun is only using basic rules.
The Meltagun has the Melta special rule.
Neither gun on its own is a basic or advanced rule, they have those added on to them based on their profile.
They both roll to hit against a vehicle the same, BUT when you go to roll to penetrate, this "Meltagun" gets an extra die roll. What gives?
It has the advanced rule Melta, breaking the rules to penetrate.
The Unit Type Infantry has no special rules attached to it.
The Unit Type Calvary has the Fleet special rule attached to it.
Both of those units use the same basic rules that dictate how they can move.
Both use the same basic rules that dictate how they shoot. etc etc.
A weapons profile determine what basic or advanced rules it is using.
Just like a Unit Types profile determines what basic or advanced rules it is using.
Per Basic vs Advanced """Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale."""
The basic rules tell you HOW to move, shoot, assault etc, not tell you what VALUES to use while doing so. The Unit Types tell you the values, just like weaponry tell you the profiles to use when "Choosing a Weapon".
Brother Ramses has done a better job of illustrating the point than have.
Not all models are equipped with wargear or weapons. Any equipped wargear or weapon at all is an advanced rule.
Basic rules are rules that all models have. A model that does not have a unit type at all specified has the basic rules for Infantry automatically applied since the basic rules for Infantry apply to all models.
Spoiler:
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
Typical col_impact response that does not even encompass the entire post or examples given. Let me see you supply your rationale to Stormrider.
You didn't have an argument of merit with regards to Stormrider. The Codex provided additional Codex special rules for Stormrider. Remember, all Codex rules are advanced rules too.
I think you should really really focus in and read this rule as you seem to be totally oblivious to it.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
Brother Ramses, the above rule totally invalidates your argument. Care to comment?
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/22 02:16:09
An Iron Halo, modifys your save, which it is permitted to do.
An Iron Halo, is not a basic rule or an advanced rule, it is a piece of wargear, using the basic rule to modify stats.
What he said about the storm bolter was that it was NEITHER a basic rule, nor an advanced rule. Which I agreed with.
He stated that wargear has basic or advanced rules attached TO them. They themselves are not basic or advanced rules.
An example would be a Lasgun vs a Meltagun.
The Lasgun is only using basic rules.
The Meltagun has the Melta special rule.
Neither gun on its own is a basic or advanced rule, they have those added on to them based on their profile.
They both roll to hit against a vehicle the same, BUT when you go to roll to penetrate, this "Meltagun" gets an extra die roll. What gives?
It has the advanced rule Melta, breaking the rules to penetrate.
The Unit Type Infantry has no special rules attached to it.
The Unit Type Calvary has the Fleet special rule attached to it.
Both of those units use the same basic rules that dictate how they can move.
Both use the same basic rules that dictate how they shoot. etc etc.
A weapons profile determine what basic or advanced rules it is using.
Just like a Unit Types profile determines what basic or advanced rules it is using.
Per Basic vs Advanced """Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale."""
The basic rules tell you HOW to move, shoot, assault etc, not tell you what VALUES to use while doing so. The Unit Types tell you the values, just like weaponry tell you the profiles to use when "Choosing a Weapon".
Brother Ramses has done a better job of illustrating the point than have.
Not all models are equipped with wargear or weapons. Any equipped wargear or weapon at all is an advanced rule.
Basic rules are rules that all models have. A model that does not have a unit type at all specified has the basic rules for Infantry automatically applied since the basic rules for Infantry apply to all models.
Spoiler:
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
Typical col_impact response that does not even encompass the entire post or examples given. Let me see you supply your rationale to Stormrider.
You didn't have an argument of merit with regards to Stormrider. The Codex provided additional Codex special rules for Stormrider. Remember, all Codex rules are advanced rules too.
So on Logan Grimnar's profile has him listed as Unit Type Infantry, that is an Advanced Rule? But you have been arguing this entire time that Unit Type Infantry is a Basic Rule and all other Unit Types are Advanced.
My example clarifies completely how the Basic versus Advanced works out per the RAW where even your retort above is just another RAI assumption.
An Iron Halo, modifys your save, which it is permitted to do.
An Iron Halo, is not a basic rule or an advanced rule, it is a piece of wargear, using the basic rule to modify stats.
What he said about the storm bolter was that it was NEITHER a basic rule, nor an advanced rule. Which I agreed with.
He stated that wargear has basic or advanced rules attached TO them. They themselves are not basic or advanced rules.
An example would be a Lasgun vs a Meltagun.
The Lasgun is only using basic rules.
The Meltagun has the Melta special rule.
Neither gun on its own is a basic or advanced rule, they have those added on to them based on their profile.
They both roll to hit against a vehicle the same, BUT when you go to roll to penetrate, this "Meltagun" gets an extra die roll. What gives?
It has the advanced rule Melta, breaking the rules to penetrate.
The Unit Type Infantry has no special rules attached to it.
The Unit Type Calvary has the Fleet special rule attached to it.
Both of those units use the same basic rules that dictate how they can move.
Both use the same basic rules that dictate how they shoot. etc etc.
A weapons profile determine what basic or advanced rules it is using.
Just like a Unit Types profile determines what basic or advanced rules it is using.
Per Basic vs Advanced """Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale."""
The basic rules tell you HOW to move, shoot, assault etc, not tell you what VALUES to use while doing so. The Unit Types tell you the values, just like weaponry tell you the profiles to use when "Choosing a Weapon".
Brother Ramses has done a better job of illustrating the point than have.
Not all models are equipped with wargear or weapons. Any equipped wargear or weapon at all is an advanced rule.
Basic rules are rules that all models have. A model that does not have a unit type at all specified has the basic rules for Infantry automatically applied since the basic rules for Infantry apply to all models.
Spoiler:
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
Typical col_impact response that does not even encompass the entire post or examples given. Let me see you supply your rationale to Stormrider.
You didn't have an argument of merit with regards to Stormrider. The Codex provided additional Codex special rules for Stormrider. Remember, all Codex rules are advanced rules too.
Dismiss, dismiss, dismiss.
That is all you do, dismiss everything.
Wargear are not basic or advanced rules. They are profiles.
In the shooting phase you CHOOSE A WEAPON.
That tells you what profile you are using to shoot.
The PROFILE has basic or advanced rules, based on what the profile states.
The weapon itself is not a basic or advanced rule.
A Unit Type is just that, a type of unit. Your silly argument falls flat on its face by the fact that the location of the Unit Type for Infantry is located on the first page of Unit Types.
Unit Types are the profiles that tell you the values different unit types use when performing the actions of movement, shooting, assault.
Just like a weapons profile tells you the values that weapon uses to shoot.
Neither of these tell you HOW to move or HOW to shoot. That is done in the core rules section, where the basic rules are.
These are the values you use when performing those basic rules.
So on Logan Grimnar's profile has him listed as Unit Type Infantry, that is an Advanced Rule? But you have been arguing this entire time that Unit Type Infantry is a Basic Rule and all other Unit Types are Advanced.
My example clarifies completely how the Basic versus Advanced works out per the RAW where even your retort above is just another RAI assumption.
All models have the infantry basic rules. If Logan is on a chariot then he has advanced chariot rules. If Logan is on Stormrider (which is a chariot) then he has additional Codex special rules (which are advanced rules) for Stormrider.
This is all very simple and supported by the rules.
Your argument isn't supported by the rules. See the quote below.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
Per your definition, the Unit Type Infantry is found on the first page of the Unit Type section.
That would make all rules associated to the Unit Type Infantry "advanced rules" which is not correct.
Show me the page that says "All models have basic infantry moves".
So on Logan Grimnar's profile has him listed as Unit Type Infantry, that is an Advanced Rule? But you have been arguing this entire time that Unit Type Infantry is a Basic Rule and all other Unit Types are Advanced.
My example clarifies completely how the Basic versus Advanced works out per the RAW where even your retort above is just another RAI assumption.
All models have the infantry basic rules. If Logan is on a chariot then he has advanced chariot rules. If Logan is on Stormrider (which is a chariot) then he has additional Codex special rules (which are advanced rules) for Stormrider.
This is all very simple and supported by the rules.
Your argument isn't supported by the rules. See the quote below.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
This does support my argument by the rules.
All rules governing the actions of movement, shooting, assault and morale are located in the Core Rules section.
The Unit Types section introduces no new rules. It has values that are used by the Core Rules.
The Weaponry section also introduces no new rules. It has values that are used by the Core Rules, namely weapon profiles.
Each of those sections has special rules, which are identifed as special rules that are attached to those profiles.
All basic rules are still in the Core Rules Section.
All special rules are still sourced from the Special Rules section.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/22 02:32:54
Dismiss, dismiss, dismiss.
That is all you do, dismiss everything.
Wargear are not basic or advanced rules. They are profiles.
In the shooting phase you CHOOSE A WEAPON.
That tells you what profile you are using to shoot.
The PROFILE has basic or advanced rules, based on what the profile states.
The weapon itself is not a basic or advanced rule.
Incorrect. Not all models have wargear. When a specific model has a certain wargear such as a weapon or an iron halo it is an advanced rule.
Spoiler:
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
A Unit Type is just that, a type of unit. Your silly argument falls flat on its face by the fact that the location of the Unit Type for Infantry is located on the first page of Unit Types.
It has been pointed out numerous times with rules quotes that you are flat out wrong. The infantry rules are basic rules.
So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game.
As the bulk of the rules are concerned with them, there are no additional rules to present here.
Why do you persist in arguing against plainly stated rules?
Ceann wrote: Unit Types are the profiles that tell you the values different unit types use when performing the actions of movement, shooting, assault.
Just like a weapons profile tells you the values that weapon uses to shoot.
Neither of these tell you HOW to move or HOW to shoot. That is done in the core rules section, where the basic rules are.
These are the values you use when performing those basic rules.
Unit type is not a profile. You are making that up.
The Unit Types section is a collection of advanced rules that override the basic infantry rules that all models have.
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
All rules governing the actions of movement, shooting, assault and morale are located in the Core Rules section.
The Unit Types section introduces no new rules. It has values that are used by the Core Rules.
The Weaponry section also introduces no new rules. It has values that are used by the Core Rules, namely weapon profiles.
Each of those sections has special rules, which are identifed as special rules that are attached to those profiles.
All basic rules are still in the Core Rules Section.
All special rules are still sourced from the Special Rules section.
A unit type is not a profile. You have made this up. You are not allowed to make stuff up.
The Unit Types section is literally nothing but new rules. They are all advanced rules by definition. Some of those advanced rules are special rules. None of them are basic rules. All basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
For example, the bike unit type has a number of advanced rules and a number of advanced rules that are special rules
advanced rules which are not special rules
1) ARMOURED STEED - Bike and Jetbike riders benefit from an increase to their Toughness characteristic by 1. If the Bike or Jetbike is part of the model’s standard wargear, this bonus is already included on its profile. In addition, Bikes and Jetbikes cannot Go to Ground, and cannot be Pinned.
2) MOVEMENT - Bikes and Jetbikes can move up to 12" in the Movement phase.
3) BIKES & TERRAIN - Bikes and Jetbikes are not slowed down by difficult terrain (even when charging). However, Bikes treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain instead.
4) FALL BACK MOVES - Bikes and Jetbikes move 3D6" when Falling Back, rather than 2D6".
5) SHOOTING - Each Bike or Jetbike in a unit can fire with one weapon for each rider on the Bike. Thus a Space Marine Attack Bike with a driver and passenger in sidecar can fire two weapons.
6) TURBO-BOOST - Bikes and Jetbikes cannot Run, but can make a special Turbo-boost move instead of firing in their Shooting phase. Turbo-boosting Bikes move up to 12", Turbo-boosting Jetbikes move up to 24". Controlling their Bikes at such speeds takes all the riders’ concentration and skill, however. Bikes and Jetbikes therefore cannot shoot, charge or execute any other voluntary action until the end of their turn after Turbo-boosting.
special rules which are advanced rules
Hammer of Wrath
Jink
Relentless
Very Bulky
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/22 02:48:35
An Iron Halo, modifys your save, which it is permitted to do.
An Iron Halo, is not a basic rule or an advanced rule, it is a piece of wargear, using the basic rule to modify stats.
What he said about the storm bolter was that it was NEITHER a basic rule, nor an advanced rule. Which I agreed with.
He stated that wargear has basic or advanced rules attached TO them. They themselves are not basic or advanced rules.
An example would be a Lasgun vs a Meltagun.
The Lasgun is only using basic rules.
The Meltagun has the Melta special rule.
Neither gun on its own is a basic or advanced rule, they have those added on to them based on their profile.
They both roll to hit against a vehicle the same, BUT when you go to roll to penetrate, this "Meltagun" gets an extra die roll. What gives?
It has the advanced rule Melta, breaking the rules to penetrate.
The Unit Type Infantry has no special rules attached to it.
The Unit Type Calvary has the Fleet special rule attached to it.
Both of those units use the same basic rules that dictate how they can move.
Both use the same basic rules that dictate how they shoot. etc etc.
A weapons profile determine what basic or advanced rules it is using.
Just like a Unit Types profile determines what basic or advanced rules it is using.
Per Basic vs Advanced """Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale."""
The basic rules tell you HOW to move, shoot, assault etc, not tell you what VALUES to use while doing so. The Unit Types tell you the values, just like weaponry tell you the profiles to use when "Choosing a Weapon".
Brother Ramses has done a better job of illustrating the point than have.
Not all models are equipped with wargear or weapons. Any equipped wargear or weapon at all is an advanced rule.
Basic rules are rules that all models have. A model that does not have a unit type at all specified has the basic rules for Infantry automatically applied since the basic rules for Infantry apply to all models.
Spoiler:
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
Typical col_impact response that does not even encompass the entire post or examples given. Let me see you supply your rationale to Stormrider.
You didn't have an argument of merit with regards to Stormrider. The Codex provided additional Codex special rules for Stormrider. Remember, all Codex rules are advanced rules too.
I think you should really really focus in and read this rule as you seem to be totally oblivious to it.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
Brother Ramses, the above rule totally invalidates your argument. Care to comment?
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
It isn't a rule as that section does not contain all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles. You are literally breaking the game by using that as a lynch pin of your argument because the statement is patently false.
So on Logan Grimnar's profile has him listed as Unit Type Infantry, that is an Advanced Rule? But you have been arguing this entire time that Unit Type Infantry is a Basic Rule and all other Unit Types are Advanced.
My example clarifies completely how the Basic versus Advanced works out per the RAW where even your retort above is just another RAI assumption.
All models have the infantry basic rules. If Logan is on a chariot then he has advanced chariot rules. If Logan is on Stormrider (which is a chariot) then he has additional Codex special rules (which are advanced rules) for Stormrider.
This is all very simple and supported by the rules.
Your argument isn't supported by the rules. See the quote below.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
This is 100% b.s. that you have just pulled out of the rear of a male bovine. Like the biggest load that you may have ever written on these boards.
When Logan uses Stormrider, per the Unit Type Chariot Basic Rule he becomes the rider; just like any other model with Unit Type Infantry that is able to use a model that is Unit Type Chariot. Unlike every other model with Unit Type Infantry that is able to use a model that is Unit Type Chariot, the Advanced Rules specific to the model known as Stormrider, Logan gets to make 4 additonal Strength 5, AP- Attacks with the Rending Special Rule.
Dare I ask that you see how that works? Let me guess, you are going to spam the false statement from the Core Rules section.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/22 02:52:38
Dismiss, dismiss, dismiss.
That is all you do, dismiss everything.
Wargear are not basic or advanced rules. They are profiles.
In the shooting phase you CHOOSE A WEAPON.
That tells you what profile you are using to shoot.
The PROFILE has basic or advanced rules, based on what the profile states.
The weapon itself is not a basic or advanced rule.
Incorrect. Not all models have wargear. When a specific model has a certain wargear such as a weapon or an iron halo it is an advanced rule.
Spoiler:
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
A Unit Type is just that, a type of unit. Your silly argument falls flat on its face by the fact that the location of the Unit Type for Infantry is located on the first page of Unit Types.
It has been pointed out numerous times with rules quotes that you are flat out wrong. The infantry rules are basic rules.
So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game.
As the bulk of the rules are concerned with them, there are no additional rules to present here.
Why do you persist in arguing against plainly stated rules?
Ceann wrote: Unit Types are the profiles that tell you the values different unit types use when performing the actions of movement, shooting, assault.
Just like a weapons profile tells you the values that weapon uses to shoot.
Neither of these tell you HOW to move or HOW to shoot. That is done in the core rules section, where the basic rules are.
These are the values you use when performing those basic rules.
Unit type is not a profile. You are making that up.
The Unit Types section is a collection of advanced rules that override the basic infantry rules that all models have.
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
All rules governing the actions of movement, shooting, assault and morale are located in the Core Rules section.
The Unit Types section introduces no new rules. It has values that are used by the Core Rules.
The Weaponry section also introduces no new rules. It has values that are used by the Core Rules, namely weapon profiles.
Each of those sections has special rules, which are identifed as special rules that are attached to those profiles.
All basic rules are still in the Core Rules Section.
All special rules are still sourced from the Special Rules section.
A unit type is not a profile. You have made this up. You are not allowed to make stuff up.
The Unit Types section is literally nothing but new rules. They are all advanced rules by definition. Some of those advanced rules are special rules. None of them are basic rules. All basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
Oh Col, my special snowflake.
1. Incorrect. Not all models have wargear. When a specific model has a certain wargear such as a weapon or an iron halo it is an advanced rule.
Those are not advanced rules. The Appendix splash page tells us that it contains an advanced rules section, which is the Special Rules section.
2. whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun)
Can you name a type of boltgun that has a special rule? I can! A combimelta. Which has the special rule melta. Because advanced rules are special rules.
3. Why do you persist in arguing against plainly stated rules?
Stormbolters, lasguns and Lascannons are all located in the core rules section.
Are they advanced rules? No, they are not.
But the splash page says... as you like to quote """"Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.""""
This means that anything contained in the Core Rules section is a basic rule. But luckily for us the basic rules for shooting are "Choose a Weapon".
Just like the basic rules for movement are """In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.""""
So choosing a weapon is a basic rule, the profiles are different.
Moving a unit is a basic rule, the profiles are different.
4.It has been pointed out numerous times with rules quotes that you are flat out wrong. The infantry rules are basic rules
Where does it state, verbatim, that "Infantry rules are basic rules".
Basic vs advanced states "Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
Do you see where it says "Infantry rules apply to all models in the game".
I don't see that anywhere.
5. Unit type is not a profile. You are making that up.
CHARACTERISTIC PROFILES
Every model in Warhammer 40,000 has a profile that lists the values of its characteristics. You can find these profiles in a variety of Games Workshop publications, including codexes.
In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section.
A unit type is an addition to the profiles, per the basic rules under "Models and Units"
6" Movement is the Basic Rule in the Movement Phase for Unit Type Infantry:
All Unit Type Infantry have a maximum move of 6" barring any Advanced Rule that allows them to move more.
12" Movement is the Basic Rule for Unit Type Jump Infantry:
All Unit Type Jump Infantry have a maximum movement of 12" barring any Advanced Rule that allows them to move more.
Being basic to its own type is meaningless as that is not part of the definitions of advanced rules nor the basic rules as defined in Unit Type and Basic vs Advanced.
Advanced Rules are those which differentiate a model from being an Infantry model, among other things.
Jump Models can move 12" and ignore Terrain while doing so. Infantry cannot do this. Therefore, this aspect is an advanced rule.
Mr. Shine wrote:Didn't you agree earlier with Charistoph that having a storm bolter is an advanced rule? Please, be consistent.
I never actually said that, so he never agreed with me on that.
I said a Storm Bolter is neither basic or advanced rules, but Wargear which carries rules. Some are basic, and some may be advanced. That is what he agreed with.
Ceann wrote:An Iron Halo, modifys your save, which it is permitted to do.
An Iron Halo, is not a basic rule or an advanced rule, it is a piece of wargear, using the basic rule to modify stats.
1) The actual act of modifying Saves is never stated as a basic rule. It was just noting the capacity to define how to handle the process, not the method or the process.
2) Iron Halos do not modify a Save, they provide one. No matter what the Armour Save is or how many other Invulnerable Saves the model has already, if they have an Iron Halo, they have one more.
Ceann wrote:The Unit Type Infantry has no special rules attached to it.
The Unit Type Calvary has the Fleet special rule attached to it.
Both of those units use the same basic rules that dictate how they can move.
Both use the same basic rules that dictate how they shoot. etc etc.
No, they do not. Cavalry can move 12", Infantry can move 6". It specifically states this in the Unit Type for Cavalry. This is something that differentiates it from Infantry, so an advanced rule.
Ceann wrote:Brother Ramses has done a better job of illustrating the point than have.
Not really as he is ignoring the exact same things you are ignoring.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
It isn't a rule as that section does not contain all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles. You are literally breaking the game by using that as a lynch pin of your argument because the statement is patently false.
So now your argument is that the BRB is lying to us? I guess you need to start posting in the Proposed Rules section since going against plainly stated rules is not allowed in this forum. You have basically conceded.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
The statement is completely true and I have no problem with it in my argument. I have all the basic rules I need in the Core Rules section. All the sections after the Core Rules section contain all the advanced rules I need.
If there is any problem with that rule it is because you are inventing it with your invalid argument.
Brother Ramses and Ceann, are all the basic rules located in the Core Rules section of Warhammer 40,000: The Rules, or are some of them located elsewhere?
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
Ceann wrote: A unit type is an addition to the profiles, per the basic rules under "Models and Units"
It is also indicated on the Army List Entry, like other Advanced Rules.
I need you to work with me here buddy.
1.
What is the basic rule for movement?
From "The Turn"
2. Movement phase. Here, you move any of your units that are capable of doing so. See the movement rules for more details of how to do this.
Okay, lets see the movement phase.
Noted under "The Movement Phase"
For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance
Before you bring this up...this statement?
Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase.
Has been preceded by THIS statement "For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move".
You are being told how infantry moves, you are not being told that infantry is the rule, or the standard.
The rule is "In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance." As noted from "The Turn"
I don't know about you but "For the time being" is pretty clear to me.
What unit from Unit Type is breaking these rules?
2.
What is the basic rule for shooting?
From "The Turn"
4. Shooting phase. You now shoot with any of your units that are capable of doing so. See the shooting rules for more details on how to resolve this.
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot , 2. Choose a Target, 3. Select a Weapon, 4. Roll To Hit, 5. Roll To Wound, 6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties, 7. Select Another Weapon
What unit from the Unit Type section is breaking these rules?
1. Incorrect. Not all models have wargear. When a specific model has a certain wargear such as a weapon or an iron halo it is an advanced rule.
Those are not advanced rules. The Appendix splash page tells us that it contains an advanced rules section, which is the Special Rules section.
The Appendix splash page says this.
This section contains a collection of advanced rules, weaponry, and abilities that you can use to add variety to your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
It does not say that the Appendix contains ALL of the advanced rules.
Why do you refer to rules that do not support what your are saying? This is rules abuse.
When a model is equipped with a specific kind of weapon it is an advanced rule. This is because not all models are equipped with a weapon. There is no basic shooting weapon that all models are assumed to have. All models are assumed to have a close combat weapon for assault purposes (see No Specified Melee Weapon rule).
2. whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun)
Can you name a type of boltgun that has a special rule? I can! A combimelta. Which has the special rule melta. Because advanced rules are special rules.
The actual rule lists boltgun and not combi-melta which proves my point and invalidates yours.
The rules statement is right there on the page and says 'boltgun' and not 'combi-melta'. You are not allowed to add words to the rules. Stick to what the rules actually say!
When a model is equipped with a specific kind of weapon such as a boltgun it is an advanced rule.
Ceann wrote: 3. Why do you persist in arguing against plainly stated rules?
Stormbolters, lasguns and Lascannons are all located in the core rules section.
Are they advanced rules? No, they are not.
But the splash page says... as you like to quote """"Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.""""
This means that anything contained in the Core Rules section is a basic rule. But luckily for us the basic rules for shooting are "Choose a Weapon".
Just like the basic rules for movement are """In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.""""
So choosing a weapon is a basic rule, the profiles are different.
Moving a unit is a basic rule, the profiles are different.
I have pointed this out multiple times.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
This statement says that all the basic rules are in the Core Rules section. The statement does not say that there is nothing but basic rules in the Core Rules section.
Quit making stuff up. Stick to what the rules actually say!
Ceann wrote: 4.It has been pointed out numerous times with rules quotes that you are flat out wrong. The infantry rules are basic rules
Where does it state, verbatim, that "Infantry rules are basic rules".
Basic vs advanced states "Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
Do you see where it says "Infantry rules apply to all models in the game".
I don't see that anywhere.
Again, this has been pointed out multiple times.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game.
As the bulk of the rules are concerned with them, there are no additional rules to present here.
Ceann wrote: 5. Unit type is not a profile. You are making that up.
CHARACTERISTIC PROFILES
Every model in Warhammer 40,000 has a profile that lists the values of its characteristics. You can find these profiles in a variety of Games Workshop publications, including codexes.
In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section.
A unit type is an addition to the profiles, per the basic rules under "Models and Units"
So then you prove my point, a unit type is not a profile.
Quit bending what the rules say and pay attention to what they actually say!
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/22 03:20:09
6" Movement is the Basic Rule in the Movement Phase for Unit Type Infantry:
All Unit Type Infantry have a maximum move of 6" barring any Advanced Rule that allows them to move more.
12" Movement is the Basic Rule for Unit Type Jump Infantry:
All Unit Type Jump Infantry have a maximum movement of 12" barring any Advanced Rule that allows them to move more.
Being basic to its own type is meaningless as that is not part of the definitions of advanced rules nor the basic rules as defined in Unit Type and Basic vs Advanced.
Advanced Rules are those which differentiate a model from being an Infantry model, among other things.
Jump Models can move 12" and ignore Terrain while doing so. Infantry cannot do this. Therefore, this aspect is an advanced rule.
Mr. Shine wrote:Didn't you agree earlier with Charistoph that having a storm bolter is an advanced rule? Please, be consistent.
I never actually said that, so he never agreed with me on that.
I said a Storm Bolter is neither basic or advanced rules, but Wargear which carries rules. Some are basic, and some may be advanced. That is what he agreed with.
Ceann wrote:An Iron Halo, modifys your save, which it is permitted to do.
An Iron Halo, is not a basic rule or an advanced rule, it is a piece of wargear, using the basic rule to modify stats.
1) The actual act of modifying Saves is never stated as a basic rule. It was just noting the capacity to define how to handle the process, not the method or the process.
2) Iron Halos do not modify a Save, they provide one. No matter what the Armour Save is or how many other Invulnerable Saves the model has already, if they have an Iron Halo, they have one more.
Ceann wrote:The Unit Type Infantry has no special rules attached to it.
The Unit Type Calvary has the Fleet special rule attached to it.
Both of those units use the same basic rules that dictate how they can move.
Both use the same basic rules that dictate how they shoot. etc etc.
No, they do not. Cavalry can move 12", Infantry can move 6". It specifically states this in the Unit Type for Cavalry. This is something that differentiates it from Infantry, so an advanced rule.
Ceann wrote:Brother Ramses has done a better job of illustrating the point than have.
Not really as he is ignoring the exact same things you are ignoring.
Wrong.
Kharn the Betrayer is Unit Type Infantry (Character), so he follows all the Basic rules for Unit Type Infantry, just like any other model that has Unit Type Infantry, for the Movement phase, Shooting phase, and Assault phase.
He has a set of Special Rules; Champion of Chaos, Fearless, Furious Charge, IC, Mark of Khorne, Veterans of the Long War.
But wait! In the Assault phase, he has an Advanced rule, The Betrayer, that results in unmodified rolls of one hitting a friendly model in the same unit.
So as I just showed you, Advanced Rules do not differentiate from being an Infantry model. Kharn is still Unit Type Infantry with an Advanced Rule in Assault and a list of Special Rules.
This is 100% b.s. that you have just pulled out of the rear of a male bovine. Like the biggest load that you may have ever written on these boards.
When Logan uses Stormrider, per the Unit Type Chariot Basic Rule he becomes the rider; just like any other model with Unit Type Infantry that is able to use a model that is Unit Type Chariot. Unlike every other model with Unit Type Infantry that is able to use a model that is Unit Type Chariot, the Advanced Rules specific to the model known as Stormrider, Logan gets to make 4 additonal Strength 5, AP- Attacks with the Rending Special Rule.
Dare I ask that you see how that works? Let me guess, you are going to spam the false statement from the Core Rules section.
You are just confused. There is nothing really of note in the Stomrider example.
Logan has the basic rules for Infantry.
He is in a chariot so that applies those advanced rules from the Unit Types section.
In addition, Stomrider is itself a Codex special rule (that is also an advanced rule).
These all work together just fine per the Basic Versus Advanced Rule.
Spoiler:
Basic Versus Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence.
I suggest you read the entire rule carefully. It all works just fine in the Stormrider example. Just read the rules and apply them.
And also don't forget this rule!
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models
Do Infantry, located on the FIRST PAGE of the Unit Types section, possess any innate special rules?
No.
That is why those are "all the rules you will need for infantry" because infantry do not possess any innate special rules.
The special rules section state it PRESENTS ALL special rules.
The Datasheet entry for the special rules section also notates that all special rules are located in a codex, any special rule NOT located in the codex is located in the Special Rules section of the BRB.
We have the BRB and Codex's telling us to look in the same place within the BRB for special rules.
In order for a rule to be an advanced rule it MUST be conflicting with a basic rule. Any rule that conflicts with a basic rule is notated in the Special Rules section.
By the process of elimination, nothing located in the "Unit Types" section can be an advanced rul.
The other unit types DO have innate special rules.
Which can be found in the special rules section.
Kharn the Betrayer is Unit Type Infantry (Character), so he follows all the Basic rules for Unit Type Infantry, just like any other model that has Unit Type Infantry, for the Movement phase, Shooting phase, and Assault phase.
He has a set of Special Rules; Champion of Chaos, Fearless, Furious Charge, IC, Mark of Khorne, Veterans of the Long War.
But wait! In the Assault phase, he has an Advanced rule, The Betrayer, that results in unmodified rolls of one hitting a friendly model in the same unit.
So as I just showed you, Advanced Rules do not differentiate from being an Infantry model. Kharn is still Unit Type Infantry with an Advanced Rule in Assault and a list of Special Rules.
Are you nuts? The advanced rule and special rules (which are advanced rules) all differentiate him from a basic infantry. Basic infantry cannot hit friendly units in assault.
You guys are literally having trouble with basic logic and basic comprehension here.
WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. Most special rules are given to a model by the relevant Army List Entry or its unit type.
That said, a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.
A Compendium of Special Rules
For ease of consultation, we’ve presented the special rules in alphabetical order. There’s
also an index at the back of the book to help you locate any particular special rule you’re
after.
ARMY LIST ENTRIES
Each Army List Entry contains the following information:
9. Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here. Special
rules that are unique to models in that unit are described in full here, whilst others are
detailed either in the Appendix of this book or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer
40,000: The Rules
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/22 03:37:26
In order for a rule to be an advanced rule it MUST be conflicting with a basic rule. Any rule that conflicts with a basic rule is notated in the Special Rules section.
There is no such rule in the BRB. You are making this up. You are not allowed to make stuff up in YMDC. Post in the Proposed Rules section.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote: WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. Most special rules are given to a model by the relevant Army List Entry or its unit type.
That said, a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.
A Compendium of Special Rules
For ease of consultation, we’ve presented the special rules in alphabetical order. There’s
also an index at the back of the book to help you locate any particular special rule you’re
after.
ARMY LIST ENTRIES
Each Army List Entry contains the following information:
9. Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here. Special
rules that are unique to models in that unit are described in full here, whilst others are
detailed either in the Appendix of this book or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer
40,000: The Rules
Thanks for the rules quotes.
These rule quotes support my argument.
This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.
All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/22 03:40:30
In order for a rule to be an advanced rule it MUST be conflicting with a basic rule. Any rule that conflicts with a basic rule is notated in the Special Rules section.
There is no such rule in the BRB. You are making this up. You are not allowed to make stuff up in YMDC. Post in the Proposed Rules section.
BRB SPECIAL RULES SECTION.
Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule.
Basic vs Advanced
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
Name all the special rules located in the Unit Types section?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/22 03:42:15
In order for a rule to be an advanced rule it MUST be conflicting with a basic rule. Any rule that conflicts with a basic rule is notated in the Special Rules section.
There is no such rule in the BRB. You are making this up. You are not allowed to make stuff up in YMDC. Post in the Proposed Rules section.
BRB SPECIAL RULES SECTION.
Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule.
Basic vs Advanced
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
Name all the special rules located in the Unit Types section?
Let's just look at the bike unit type as an example
The bike unit type has a number of advanced rules and a number of advanced rules that are special rules
advanced rules which are not special rules 1) ARMOURED STEED - Bike and Jetbike riders benefit from an increase to their Toughness characteristic by 1. If the Bike or Jetbike is part of the model’s standard wargear, this bonus is already included on its profile. In addition, Bikes and Jetbikes cannot Go to Ground, and cannot be Pinned.
2) MOVEMENT - Bikes and Jetbikes can move up to 12" in the Movement phase.
3) BIKES & TERRAIN - Bikes and Jetbikes are not slowed down by difficult terrain (even when charging). However, Bikes treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain instead.
4) FALL BACK MOVES - Bikes and Jetbikes move 3D6" when Falling Back, rather than 2D6".
5) SHOOTING - Each Bike or Jetbike in a unit can fire with one weapon for each rider on the Bike. Thus a Space Marine Attack Bike with a driver and passenger in sidecar can fire two weapons.
6) TURBO-BOOST - Bikes and Jetbikes cannot Run, but can make a special Turbo-boost move instead of firing in their Shooting phase. Turbo-boosting Bikes move up to 12", Turbo-boosting Jetbikes move up to 24". Controlling their Bikes at such speeds takes all the riders’ concentration and skill, however. Bikes and Jetbikes therefore cannot shoot, charge or execute any other voluntary action until the end of their turn after Turbo-boosting.
special rules which are advanced rules 1) Hammer of Wrath
2) Jink
3) Relentless
4) Very Bulky
Automatically Appended Next Post: This statement that you made up . . .
In order for a rule to be an advanced rule it MUST be conflicting with a basic rule.
does not follow from this statement which is in the actual rules
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
An advanced rule can be an advanced rule that is not in conflict with a basic rule. The rule just says that an advanced rule will always override any contradicting basic rules.
Again, more logic and reading comprehension problems from you guys. Quit bending what the rules actually say!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/22 03:50:01
This is 100% b.s. that you have just pulled out of the rear of a male bovine. Like the biggest load that you may have ever written on these boards.
When Logan uses Stormrider, per the Unit Type Chariot Basic Rule he becomes the rider; just like any other model with Unit Type Infantry that is able to use a model that is Unit Type Chariot. Unlike every other model with Unit Type Infantry that is able to use a model that is Unit Type Chariot, the Advanced Rules specific to the model known as Stormrider, Logan gets to make 4 additonal Strength 5, AP- Attacks with the Rending Special Rule.
Dare I ask that you see how that works? Let me guess, you are going to spam the false statement from the Core Rules section.
You are just confused. There is nothing really of note in the Stomrider example.
Logan has the basic rules for Infantry.
He is in a chariot so that applies those advanced rules from the Unit Types section.
In addition, Stomrider is itself a Codex special rule (that is also an advanced rule).
These all work together just fine per the Basic Versus Advanced Rule.
Spoiler:
Basic Versus Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence.
I suggest you read the entire rule carefully. It all works just fine in the Stormrider example. Just read the rules and apply them.
And also don't forget this rule!
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
First, Stormrider is not a Special Rule. It is a model with Unit Type (Chariot, Open-topped) as shown clearly in the screenshots attached to that post that you must have skipped over. It follows all the Basic Rules for Unit Type (Chariot, Open-topped) for Movement, Shooting, and Assault. However unlike other models that are Unit Type (Chariot, Open-topped) it has Advanced Rules as shown in the screenshot, that you must have skipped over as well, for Shooting and Assault.
Can you try and not just make up stuff? I have now provided two ironclad examples, one with Stormrider and one with Kharn on how the process works and yet everything you have posted in this thread has been RAI.
First, Stormrider is not a Special Rule. It is a model with Unit Type (Chariot, Open-topped) as shown clearly in the screenshots attached to that post that you must have skipped over. It follows all the Basic Rules for Unit Type (Chariot, Open-topped) for Movement, Shooting, and Assault. However unlike other models that are Unit Type (Chariot, Open-topped) it has Advanced Rules as shown in the screenshot, that you must have skipped over as well, for Shooting and Assault.
Can you try and not just make up stuff? I have now provided two ironclad examples, one with Stormrider and one with Kharn on how the process works and yet everything you have posted in this thread has been RAI.
The Chariot rules are not basic rules. The rules are not in the Core Rules section and they expand on the basic infantry rules by a huge margin.
You are just confused. There is nothing really of note in the Stomrider example.
Logan has the basic rules for Infantry.
He is in a chariot so that applies those advanced rules from the Unit Types section.
In addition, Stomrider is itself a Codex special rule (that is also an advanced rule).
These all work together just fine per the Basic Versus Advanced Rule.
Spoiler:
Basic Versus Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence.
In order for a rule to be an advanced rule it MUST be conflicting with a basic rule. Any rule that conflicts with a basic rule is notated in the Special Rules section.
There is no such rule in the BRB. You are making this up. You are not allowed to make stuff up in YMDC. Post in the Proposed Rules section.
BRB SPECIAL RULES SECTION.
Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule.
Basic vs Advanced
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
Name all the special rules located in the Unit Types section?
Let's just look at the bike unit type as an example
The bike unit type has a number of advanced rules and a number of advanced rules that are special rules
advanced rules which are not special rules 1) ARMOURED STEED - Bike and Jetbike riders benefit from an increase to their Toughness characteristic by 1. If the Bike or Jetbike is part of the model’s standard wargear, this bonus is already included on its profile. In addition, Bikes and Jetbikes cannot Go to Ground, and cannot be Pinned.
2) MOVEMENT - Bikes and Jetbikes can move up to 12" in the Movement phase.
3) BIKES & TERRAIN - Bikes and Jetbikes are not slowed down by difficult terrain (even when charging). However, Bikes treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain instead.
4) FALL BACK MOVES - Bikes and Jetbikes move 3D6" when Falling Back, rather than 2D6".
5) SHOOTING - Each Bike or Jetbike in a unit can fire with one weapon for each rider on the Bike. Thus a Space Marine Attack Bike with a driver and passenger in sidecar can fire two weapons.
6) TURBO-BOOST - Bikes and Jetbikes cannot Run, but can make a special Turbo-boost move instead of firing in their Shooting phase. Turbo-boosting Bikes move up to 12", Turbo-boosting Jetbikes move up to 24". Controlling their Bikes at such speeds takes all the riders’ concentration and skill, however. Bikes and Jetbikes therefore cannot shoot, charge or execute any other voluntary action until the end of their turn after Turbo-boosting.
special rules which are advanced rules 1) Hammer of Wrath
2) Jink
3) Relentless
4) Very Bulky
Wrong.
If they are an advanced rule, then they are breaking a basic rule.
If they are breaking a basic rule, then they will be listed in the Special Rules Section.
Which is notated by both the BRB and any codex Army List Entry.
Quoted below...
BRB For ease of consultation, we’ve presented the special rules in alphabetical order. There’s
also an index at the back of the book to help you locate any particular special rule you’re after.
Army List Entry
Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here, or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.
1. Armored Steed, is it listed in the Index as stated by the special rules section? No.
2. Movement - Movement is a basic rule that apply's to all models.
3. Bikes & Terrain, is it listed in the Index as stated by the special rules section? No.
4. Fallback Moves - Morale is a basic rule that apply's to all models.
5. Shooting - Shooting is a basic rule that apply's to all models.
6. Turboboost - Shooting is a basic rule that apply's to all models, this is a run move from the basic rules.
