Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

How I see this playing out:

1) main rules will be free ie the 12 page rule set.

2) we will get 5 books when 8th drops, probley something along the lines of SM, armies of the imperium, Chaos marines, chaos everything else, xenos, or chaos will be one book and book 5 will be the rules.

I hope they are more along the lines of the second edition black codex then the rules in the back of the 3rd edition rule book army lists.

I really hope Jervis didn't have to much of a hand in 8th edition, he was the one responsible for the 4th edition Dark Angels and Chaos dex's where they shifted more to a rules lite book and we all know how well that played out....

I really hope FW finishes off the rest of the legions for HH before switching off to the 8th edition rules so that people who just want to play HH can play with a fully functional rule set with all 18 legions, Imperial Army and Mechanicum army lists if they don't wish to play with 8th edition rules. It probley won't happen but one can hope.

I have mixed feelings on this. I really want it to be the 'bestemest 40 evah!!!' I really do. I love the 40k fluff, but the way the fluff has been going the last few years...well.... So I hope the game works at a fundamental level, not like the mess we have now which is 3.5 edition.

For those of you who are claiming balance there will never be balance in 40k. I think the game will still mostly be won in the list building and deployment phase. We ALL know that within a month or so people will have figured out who are the top tier armies, and what are the 'best' units for said army. Any who thinks other wise or who thinks that everything will be equal and viable is just fooling themselves. It will either be CC or shooting heavy one will be better then the other. It will just change who is 'the best' ( my guess is some flavour of marines....imagine that eh?)

I want to believe GW I really do, make me believe GW. Give me a reason to.

 Not-not-kenny wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Core rules implies a functional rules set and that implies the unit rules are included, so that you can actually play a game with said core rules.

Otherwise, what's the point?

That's not been the case for GW games for a loong time, the core rules were what was in the BRB but you still needed to buy the codexes/armybooks.

Of course, you can download the warscroll for every Fantasy/AoS unit free from their website, so the unit rules are free. They're not pointed, so I see those being in the "Grand Alliance" books. But you can certainly play Unbound without any rules purchase.

Caliginous wrote:

Backfire wrote:


But terminators have sucked since... wait, no, they've never been good. In Rogue Trader they were too frail, in 2nd Edition they lacked any kind of real punch for the point cost (firing their storm bolters and producing a hail of jams was always fun!), 3rd Edition and beyond they were too damn frail to compete against the proliferation of AP2 weaponry that has continued for four straight editions.

Wolf Guard Terminators in 2nd edition could annihilate just about every troop type and every vehicle. But otherwise, yes, you are correct. They've never found a decent medium that balanced their fluff with workable rules.

Ugh, yeah, I still remember those... full unit with Cyclones, and me playing orks >_>

 Azazelx wrote:

 Not-not-kenny wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Core rules implies a functional rules set and that implies the unit rules are included, so that you can actually play a game with said core rules.

Otherwise, what's the point?

That's not been the case for GW games for a loong time, the core rules were what was in the BRB but you still needed to buy the codexes/armybooks.

Of course, you can download the warscroll for every Fantasy/AoS unit free from their website, so the unit rules are free. They're not pointed, so I see those being in the "Grand Alliance" books. But you can certainly play Unbound without any rules purchase.

And if they do a 99p per month subscription army builder like they do in the AoS app, you could play basic pointed games for 99p a month. :-) of course the extra books make the game much better. The GHB is an amazing edition for AOS and I imagine the 40k equivalent will be even better.

So we're getting AoS 40K edition.

And everyone seems to be OK with that. GW's brainwashing marketing has finally paid off for them.

 Looky Likey wrote:

Backfire wrote:

If you're on Meltagun range, you are probably on charge range...

If they change the rules again on number of grenades in assault then that would be my preferred follow up, but my typical tactical squad doesn't have great odds of tearing up a vehicle in assault even if I give them melta bombs with just one attack.

Yeah, they messed up vehicle assaults in weird way in 7th. Vehicles became too hard to destroy with grenades, and too easy with regular attacks if you just had enough S.

I still remember that 5th edition game where a Soul Grinder attacked and massacred unit of Marines, and only Sergeant was left....who coolly rolled a 6 and blew the damn thing with Meltabomb.
It would have been forgettable if they had shot it up with Boltguns...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:

I really hope Jervis didn't have to much of a hand in 8th edition, he was the one responsible for the 4th edition Dark Angels and Chaos dex's where they shifted more to a rules lite book and we all know how well that played out....

Rules lite-approach was more of Cavatore's work. That said, during 7th edition I actually began to miss Cavatore codices. Never thought that would happen...

 Tamereth wrote:
So we're getting AoS 40K edition.

And everyone seems to be OK with that. GW's brainwashing marketing has finally paid off for them.

Not everyone is ok with it - but many of us are liking what we have heard thus far.

It remains to be seen if it is better than the crap that is 7th / 7.5 edition or is somehow even worse.

Vehicles - everyone (?) agrees the current system does not work especially when compared to the MC's. So whilst you can disable, reduce or even destroy a vehicle in one shot - its almost always the case that the MC does not have this issue. In addition we have the stupid situation where vehicles can't over watch - even when they are flame tanks or similar.

The proposed system is not clear but very high wounds coupled with an armour save should make both MCs and Vehicles hard to kill but easier to balance against each other. It also allows considerable flexibility with how the vehicle/MC degrades as it takes damage.

We have already have fixed roll to hit with BS so WS seems fine - either they should both be tables or neither - but then I guess some people want to keep the shooting as powerful as possible.................

 Albertorius wrote:

Caliginous wrote:

Backfire wrote:


But terminators have sucked since... wait, no, they've never been good. In Rogue Trader they were too frail, in 2nd Edition they lacked any kind of real punch for the point cost (firing their storm bolters and producing a hail of jams was always fun!), 3rd Edition and beyond they were too damn frail to compete against the proliferation of AP2 weaponry that has continued for four straight editions.

Wolf Guard Terminators in 2nd edition could annihilate just about every troop type and every vehicle. But otherwise, yes, you are correct. They've never found a decent medium that balanced their fluff with workable rules.

Ugh, yeah, I still remember those... full unit with Cyclones, and me playing orks >_>

Yeah but they fixed that rather quick in WD, along with shooting at a unit mostly in cover with follow firing weapons using the base to hit and not the modified value for being in cover. Andy Chamber's called people who did that a sneaky git ( and nobody wants to be a sneaky git right?)

Assault Termies where great in second edition, the S10 Thunder hammer and S8 lighting claws where fantastic along with the 3+ on 2d6. The main problem with termies has always been the delivery system. Foot sloggin sucks, way to many heavy weapons on the board and not enough cover ( NOBODY ever uses enough terrain in 40k even now a days). A LR is a huge investment to deliver termies. Termies are great in tight confined spaces like a city fight, tunnel system or a space hulk.... imagine that?

What this change to vehicle rules means for me is that lasguns can now hurt an ork buggy or the like. If they can hurt a terminator then they should be able to hurt a light open topped vehicle. That's what this is really about. 40k was all or nothing before. Now it's gradual, and that's much better if you ask me. More balanced.

And before anyone panics, bare in mind that such a vehicle is likely to have a lot of wounds. And squadrons will probably be more viable too.

Is there a summary of all the points from the FAQ video from yesterday anywhere?

Backfire wrote:

 Looky Likey wrote:

Backfire wrote:

If you're on Meltagun range, you are probably on charge range...

If they change the rules again on number of grenades in assault then that would be my preferred follow up, but my typical tactical squad doesn't have great odds of tearing up a vehicle in assault even if I give them melta bombs with just one attack.

Yeah, they messed up vehicle assaults in weird way in 7th. Vehicles became too hard to destroy with grenades, and too easy with regular attacks if you just had enough S.

I still remember that 5th edition game where a Soul Grinder attacked and massacred unit of Marines, and only Sergeant was left....who coolly rolled a 6 and blew the damn thing with Meltabomb.
It would have been forgettable if they had shot it up with Boltguns...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:

I really hope Jervis didn't have to much of a hand in 8th edition, he was the one responsible for the 4th edition Dark Angels and Chaos dex's where they shifted more to a rules lite book and we all know how well that played out....

Rules lite-approach was more of Cavatore's work. That said, during 7th edition I actually began to miss Cavatore codices. Never thought that would happen...

Yeah but Alesso was a bout rules light but still had substance, Alesso was less about complicated and more about complex game play. Jervis was about rules light and....rolling more dice is fun for my kid, I want to make games that are fun for my kid... He even said as much in the WD about it when he was talking about those two dexes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

zerosignal wrote:
Is there a summary of all the points from the FAQ video from yesterday anywhere?

Check the first post

zerosignal wrote:
Is there a summary of all the points from the FAQ video from yesterday anywhere?

It's In the OP pal!

When I see all this hand-wringing over whether a Lasgun should have a remote chance of harming a Land Raider I feel like there is a real lack of an attitude of heroic romance or dark humour towards the game, which to me feels distinctly at odds with the 40k universe.

Who doesn't want to tell their friend about the time a unit of Termagants strayed to far from a Synapse Beast, and went feral, started shooting at a Land Raider that was being attacked by a Carnifex, and their fleshborerer beetles managed to get inside the Raider and take out its crew, ensuring the Hive Mind retained their genetic code when they went back to the Hive Ship gene pools?

It's that kind of 1 in a million chance that makes games fun, and drives stories in tabletop gaming. There's no fun in "you cannot hurt this unit" but there is plenty of emergent fun in "if the stars align, and the confluence of the rules and the fates shine warmly upon you, might just be able to take out this unit". 40k is at its core an incredibly dumb and stupid universe that gets away with its unending brutality by being a little bit ridiculous. If there's no chance for an Imperial Guardsmen to fell a mortally wounded Bloothirster/deal a fleshwound to it that causes the daemon to cut him cleanly in two with a glance next turn, then you're making a cold adonyne game. Which I guess is what some people want, but I'll take the ability to tell a great story from a fun game for days.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Tamereth wrote:
So we're getting AoS 40K edition.

And everyone seems to be OK with that. GW's brainwashing marketing has finally paid off for them.

Not everyone is ok with it - but many of us are liking what we have heard thus far.

It remains to be seen if it is better than the crap that is 7th / 7.5 edition or is somehow even worse.

Vehicles - everyone (?) agrees the current system does not work especially when compared to the MC's. So whilst you can disable, reduce or even destroy a vehicle in one shot - its almost always the case that the MC does not have this issue. In addition we have the stupid situation where vehicles can't over watch - even when they are flame tanks or similar.

The proposed system is not clear but very high wounds coupled with an armour save should make both MCs and Vehicles hard to kill but easier to balance against each other. It also allows considerable flexibility with how the vehicle/MC degrades as it takes damage.

We have already have fixed roll to hit with BS so WS seems fine - either they should both be tables or neither - but then I guess some people want to keep the shooting as powerful as possible.................

Indeed, one of the most frustrating parts of 7th is how vehicle's all get glanced to death so easily. So to fix that problem now everything can "glance" vehicles. Forget necrons gaussing to death stuff, now grots can to.

I played a few demos of AoS when it came out and found it to be one of the worst systems I have ever come across. The fact that it is the basis for 8th edition 40K is terrible news. Much like WHFB there were ways to fix the game without this level of F everything change.

Ah yes, but have you played it since they released the General's Handbook and introduced matched play and fixed a lot of the prevalent issues the community have had with it?

 DynamicCalories wrote:
Ah yes, but have you played it since they released the General's Handbook and introduced matched play and fixed a lot of the prevalent issues the community have had with it?

And as complete as the current AoS is, it's already looking like new40k will have even more going on. The free basic rules are supposed to be 12 pages rather than 4. They seem really committed to making sure they launch new40k with everything most people expect to be in a warhammer game.

 frozenwastes wrote:

 DynamicCalories wrote:
Ah yes, but have you played it since they released the General's Handbook and introduced matched play and fixed a lot of the prevalent issues the community have had with it?

And as complete as the current AoS is, it's already looking like new40k will have even more going on. The free basic rules are supposed to be 12 pages rather than 4. They seem really committed to making sure they launch new40k with everything most people expect to be in a warhammer game.

Precisely. The lore, attitude, narrative, scope, and cost of 40k already make it the more "serious" game of the two, and the rules seem set to make it the more complex of the two as well.

Everyone who calls AoS an "awful system" or an "abortion" - fine, you don't like it, but why be so negative about something that people clearly enjoy? The SCGT this weekend proves that players can bring the strategy and the rule/number/unit crunching to the bear, not to ignore the fact that they're painting some killer armies too, because they don't have to hide 20 rank and file units behind the first 5.

If 40k doesn't end up complex enough for the naysayers, then I will feel bad for them, just like I feel bad for the WFB players, but I am an advocate for growth and inclusion in hobbies, and broadening access to the lower end through streamlined rules whilst still allowing for complex upper end rules is far better for that than the opposite way round.

Hmmm.

I was a bit miffed at the 'everything can hurt everything' take, but I imagine (as stats are no longer capped at 10) it will involve rolling a 6 followed by another result, similar to how BS 6+ works.

For the amount of complaining about how turgid the ruleset is (disagree, have played shadowrun and battletech), it seems having separate vehicle, MC damage tables and multiple wounds (don't know how many yet but probably lots) would actually slow things down, not speed them up...

Also lel: main dev aim was to cater for all 3 sorts of play, but no tournament rules, only 'guidelines'. Sigh.

5 books to cover every faction? How can that work?

Xenos to get the shaft...

 Tamereth wrote:


I played a few demos of AoS when it came out

And here lies the problem.

As for even grots being able to kill land raiders, the dev-team's already said you'd need like 500 guardsmen to kill a land raider, good look with that and run less they brainwash you too, oh only free man.

 Tamereth wrote:
Indeed, one of the most frustrating parts of 7th is how vehicle's all get glanced to death so easily. So to fix that problem now everything can "glance" vehicles. Forget necrons gaussing to death stuff, now grots can to.

Would it have been as frustrating if your vehicles had 10 Hull points though? Or 15 ?

 DynamicCalories wrote:
If 40k doesn't end up complex enough for the naysayers, then I will feel bad for them, just like I feel bad for the WFB players, but I am an advocate for growth and inclusion in hobbies, and broadening access to the lower end through streamlined rules whilst still allowing for complex upper end rules is far better for that than the opposite way round.

Everything seems to be pointing in this direction. While people may denigrate open play, the fact is that if two kids each decide they think the miniatures look awesome and they each buy a squad box and put them together, I'm glad there will be free rules and they can play. That's so much better than, "oh actually you'll need a rulebook and you'll each need a codex, oh and you'll need another squad each and a leader."

zerosignal wrote:
5 books to cover every faction? How can that work?

Xenos to get the shaft...

Was talking with friends about this, I'm thinking Chaos, Imperium, Astartes, Eldar, Everything else as the 5 books. Or some split along those lines.

zerosignal wrote:
Hmmm.

I was a bit miffed at the 'everything can hurt everything' take, but I imagine (as stats are no longer capped at 10) it will involve rolling a 6 followed by another result, similar to how BS 6+ works.

For the amount of complaining about how turgid the ruleset is (disagree, have played shadowrun and battletech), it seems having separate vehicle, MC damage tables and multiple wounds (don't know how many yet but probably lots) would actually slow things down, not speed them up...

Also lel: main dev aim was to cater for all 3 sorts of play, but no tournament rules, only 'guidelines'. Sigh.

5 books to cover every faction? How can that work?

Xenos to get the shaft...

5 books initially, battletome style codex books down the line, already confirmed.

I would hazard a guess at:
Space Marines (Spehsbois)
Terran Forces (IG, Skitarii)
Forces of Chaos (CSM/Daemons)
Uneasy Allies (Eldar, Dark Eldar*, Tau)
Enemies of the Imperium (Necron, Tyranids, Orks)

*This is the stickler of course, it's more likely they'll stick them in Enemies but they given the Gathering Storm they may concoct a narrative to fold them into this alliance.

 DynamicCalories wrote:

zerosignal wrote:
Hmmm.

I was a bit miffed at the 'everything can hurt everything' take, but I imagine (as stats are no longer capped at 10) it will involve rolling a 6 followed by another result, similar to how BS 6+ works.

For the amount of complaining about how turgid the ruleset is (disagree, have played shadowrun and battletech), it seems having separate vehicle, MC damage tables and multiple wounds (don't know how many yet but probably lots) would actually slow things down, not speed them up...

Also lel: main dev aim was to cater for all 3 sorts of play, but no tournament rules, only 'guidelines'. Sigh.

5 books to cover every faction? How can that work?

Xenos to get the shaft...

5 books initially, battletome style codex books down the line, already confirmed.

I would hazard a guess at:
Space Marines (Spehsbois)
Terran Forces (IG, Skitarii)
Forces of Chaos (CSM/Daemons)
Uneasy Allies (Eldar, Dark Eldar*, Tau)
Enemies of the Imperium (Necron, Tyranids, Orks)

*This is the stickler of course, it's more likely they'll stick them in Enemies but they given the Gathering Storm they may concoct a narrative to fold them into this alliance.

Confirmed where and by whom?

 frozenwastes wrote:

 DynamicCalories wrote:
If 40k doesn't end up complex enough for the naysayers, then I will feel bad for them, just like I feel bad for the WFB players, but I am an advocate for growth and inclusion in hobbies, and broadening access to the lower end through streamlined rules whilst still allowing for complex upper end rules is far better for that than the opposite way round.

Everything seems to be pointing in this direction. While people may denigrate open play, the fact is that if two kids each decide they think the miniatures look awesome and they each buy a squad box and put them together, I'm glad there will be free rules and they can play. That's so much better than, "oh actually you'll need a rulebook and you'll each need a codex, oh and you'll need another squad each and a leader."

Removing the gatekeeping aspect in both price and rules formats of the hobby whilst still catering to the people who love their rule synergies and the chance to pour over paid for books is... not bad? It is actually good? More profits for GW might mine an increase in the quality of the hobby in general as seen over the last year or so?

During last night's live Q&A session.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 DynamicCalories wrote:

zerosignal wrote:
Hmmm.

I was a bit miffed at the 'everything can hurt everything' take, but I imagine (as stats are no longer capped at 10) it will involve rolling a 6 followed by another result, similar to how BS 6+ works.

For the amount of complaining about how turgid the ruleset is (disagree, have played shadowrun and battletech), it seems having separate vehicle, MC damage tables and multiple wounds (don't know how many yet but probably lots) would actually slow things down, not speed them up...

Also lel: main dev aim was to cater for all 3 sorts of play, but no tournament rules, only 'guidelines'. Sigh.

5 books to cover every faction? How can that work?

Xenos to get the shaft...

5 books initially, battletome style codex books down the line, already confirmed.

I would hazard a guess at:
Space Marines (Spehsbois)
Terran Forces (IG, Skitarii)
Forces of Chaos (CSM/Daemons)
Uneasy Allies (Eldar, Dark Eldar*, Tau)
Enemies of the Imperium (Necron, Tyranids, Orks)

*This is the stickler of course, it's more likely they'll stick them in Enemies but they given the Gathering Storm they may concoct a narrative to fold them into this alliance.

Confirmed where and by whom?

Those 5 splits are my personal assumption, but they confirmed in the stream yesterday that codexes are not going to go away. Much like AoS the "Grand Alliance" books will launch first, then factions will get their own codexes with rules that flesh them out, such as unique Command Points abilities.

Thing is, if a vehicle has a lot of wounds it could make perfect sense for a Lasgun to get the killshot on an Landraider, assuming that the lasgun isn't the only thing that's shot the Landy during the game. Models don't change over the course of the game, but by the end your pristine Doom Tank will now have more holes than a swiss cheese and possibly be on fire due to the number of Lascannon, Krak missile and multi-melta shots inflicted on it. On the last turn of the game, some lucky conscript puts a lasgun round through one of the gaping gaps in the armour, strikes the main Heavy Bolter ammo hopper, and blows up the whole tank.

Early in the game - well, those few wounds that the lasguns plink off represent how un-nerved the crew are at coming under immense weight of small arms fire.

Exactly. The Kharadron Ironclad has 18 wounds, it takes 9 wounds before it begins losing any real effectiveness.

 DynamicCalories wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 DynamicCalories wrote:

zerosignal wrote:
Hmmm.

I was a bit miffed at the 'everything can hurt everything' take, but I imagine (as stats are no longer capped at 10) it will involve rolling a 6 followed by another result, similar to how BS 6+ works.

For the amount of complaining about how turgid the ruleset is (disagree, have played shadowrun and battletech), it seems having separate vehicle, MC damage tables and multiple wounds (don't know how many yet but probably lots) would actually slow things down, not speed them up...

Also lel: main dev aim was to cater for all 3 sorts of play, but no tournament rules, only 'guidelines'. Sigh.

5 books to cover every faction? How can that work?

Xenos to get the shaft...

5 books initially, battletome style codex books down the line, already confirmed.

I would hazard a guess at:
Space Marines (Spehsbois)
Terran Forces (IG, Skitarii)
Forces of Chaos (CSM/Daemons)
Uneasy Allies (Eldar, Dark Eldar*, Tau)
Enemies of the Imperium (Necron, Tyranids, Orks)

*This is the stickler of course, it's more likely they'll stick them in Enemies but they given the Gathering Storm they may concoct a narrative to fold them into this alliance.

Confirmed where and by whom?

Those 5 splits are my personal assumption, but they confirmed in the stream yesterday that codexes are not going to go away. Much like AoS the "Grand Alliance" books will launch first, then factions will get their own codexes with rules that flesh them out, such as unique Command Points abilities.

They confirmed Minimarines will be in the forces of imperium book, I would guess Forces of the imperium, Codex mortals of chaos,Codex demons of chaos, Codex Xenos and codex Gullimarines/Talons of the emperor. I would put money on it in fact.

5 Books,

Rulebook
Forces of Chaos
Forces of old Empire
Forces of Nu Imperium
Forces of Xenos