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Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Glasgow

 jamopower wrote:
With the experience of AoS, I'm pretty confirmed to say that even with all the playtesting (in effect AoS points were in public playtest for a year), there will be some ups and some downs, eventually forming some archtype armies for a meta. Especially with the stuff released later with less playtesting.

That said, for casual gamers, the end result will most probably be much more enjoyable and level. And on the other hand most likely it will be so for the competitive scene as well, but with less variety.


And the beauty of a yearly GHB and the ability to alter and FAQ individual units on the fly due to a lack of reliance on USR is that metas will no longer be fixed for years at a time.

The lack of variety in AoS is largely unfounded I think, it's true that two of the big performing armies at SCGT used Sayl and Skyfires... but one of them was a Seraphon army that nobody expected or anticipated. There's still variety, and its set to change with the release of GHB2 where Skyfires and Sayl will likely be addressed. Better that than waiting for years to have them nerfed to the ground or removed entirely.
   
Made in be
Courageous Beastmaster





The community team's job is also to make the company a believable partner. GW risks destroying all good will and any potential tournament organising partner by ignoring them and the effort spent playtesting.

Reece and Franky mentioned in their podcast: "several 8-10 hours conference calls and months of playtesting."

That gives me some faith they won't chuck it all out the window/ will be careful with what they do. Not to mention we have seen improvements over the last 2 years: GHB and the community team exist, They made the trophies for LVO, Presence at adepticon, doing 8-10 hour skype calls, earlier announcements and teases of products, FAQ's for all armies after lengthy silence , advancing the storyline (and quality of writing: when has that been better? Bolter porn is an old term)

You have to be buried in your garden not to see some improvements in GW. They put a lot of work into convincing people this is going to be better. Unlikely to be entirely a lie.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/26 12:54:17





 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Glasgow

Yonasu wrote:
They said they have done more than 15000 (or was it 15hundred?, cant remember) test games with the new rules.
I'm not sure what that means, but im pretty sure it means that they are full of gak.
If they have done a few hundred games i'd be impressed, but that number they used is utter bullcock.


I am pretty sure they just confirmed they had compared 1500 point games between 7th and 8th to get an estimate on the average length. I haven't seen a number they've quoted anywhere, but I do recall them saying they spent 5-10 hours each day at the weekend simply collating information from their weekly playtesting.
   
Made in de
Horrific Howling Banshee




Finland

 DynamicCalories wrote:
 jamopower wrote:
With the experience of AoS, I'm pretty confirmed to say that even with all the playtesting (in effect AoS points were in public playtest for a year), there will be some ups and some downs, eventually forming some archtype armies for a meta. Especially with the stuff released later with less playtesting.

That said, for casual gamers, the end result will most probably be much more enjoyable and level. And on the other hand most likely it will be so for the competitive scene as well, but with less variety.


And the beauty of a yearly GHB and the ability to alter and FAQ individual units on the fly due to a lack of reliance on USR is that metas will no longer be fixed for years at a time.

The lack of variety in AoS is largely unfounded I think, it's true that two of the big performing armies at SCGT used Sayl and Skyfires... but one of them was a Seraphon army that nobody expected or anticipated. There's still variety, and its set to change with the release of GHB2 where Skyfires and Sayl will likely be addressed. Better that than waiting for years to have them nerfed to the ground or removed entirely.


Yes I didn't say that there isn't/won't be variety in competitive gaming, I said less variety as understandably some units will eventually be better and will be used more and some worse and used less. I expect that I will have as fun playing with my Word bearers in 40k in the future as with my Slaanesh chaos in AoS, even though both of them won't ever be tournament worthy armies.

Feel the sunbeams shine on me.
And the thunder under the dancing feet. 
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

 Mezmerro wrote:

Zustiur wrote:
I think a few posters in this thread need to sit down and actually watch the live stream GW did.

I think some people should think for a minute about the fact that that livestream was shot by community managers - the people who's job is to form a positive public opinion of their product.


I prefer to think about how a company found to be willfully misrepresenting its products, or features of those products, is committing fraud and can be prosecuted and fined out of existence (assuming the damage done to its reputation doesn't do that first.)

You're allowed to be positive, you're not allowed to lie.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Glasgow

Ah yes, I agree to an extent there. Spite-Revenants are largely regarded as pointless in Sylvaneth armies but they're still being taken.

The archetypes are definitely there, but tempered somewhat I find by the various ways of constructing armies.
   
Made in ua
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





 Azreal13 wrote:
You're allowed to be positive, you're not allowed to lie.

Oh, but you can withold the whole picture and publish vague hopes and oppinions which is totally legal.
And which is exactly what they're doing.
Note they dodn't say things like "it will be totally balanced" but "in my oppinion it's gonna be the most balanced eddition in a while".
They didn't say how exactly they used the results of that playtesting either - just shared the sheer scale of it.

"It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change."
Charles Darwin, first champion of Tzeench 
   
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Any word on how much paper rules will be? Not a fan of the limited runs, but hoping they do like they did with DA and release a starter set with a mini codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mezmerro wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
You're allowed to be positive, you're not allowed to lie.

Oh, but you can withold the whole picture and publish vague hopes and oppinions which is totally legal.
And which is exactly what they're doing.
Note they dodn't say things like "it will be totally balanced" but "in my oppinion it's gonna be the most balanced eddition in a while".
They didn't say how exactly they used the results of that playtesting either - just shared the sheer scale of it.


So why not sit out and wait to see how balanced 8th really is? No one's forcing you to buy 8th on the day it's released.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/26 13:20:53


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Made in us
Hungry Little Ripper





 Mezmerro wrote:

Oh, but you can withold the whole picture and publish vague hopes and oppinions which is totally legal.
And which is exactly what they're doing.
Note they dodn't say things like "it will be totally balanced" but "in my oppinion it's gonna be the most balanced eddition in a while".
They didn't say how exactly they used the results of that playtesting either - just shared the sheer scale of it.


So they didn't give objective answers for subjective questions?

I'm lost with what exactly your problem is. They seem to be quite open with their answers here. There are community members all over clarifying things.
   
Made in jp
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine




So did anything useful come up over 72 pages of comments besides all the arguing and bickering about how 8th Edition is going to either be AoS or not and why that either sucks or rocks? i read 2 pages and feel like thats 99 percent of what i got.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/26 13:23:10


Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Glasgow

Pretty much nothing that hasn't been collected in the OP my friend!
   
Made in at
Not as Good as a Minion





Austria

Requizen wrote:
 kodos wrote:
Requizen wrote:

Except that this time the playtesting was done by competitive players and tournament organizers, not a handful of GW people on lunchbreak. It's like you're not even reading the thread.

and we still don't know what exactly was tested and if the suggestions of the testers were considered in the final version


Yes, I'm sure they flew all these people from the states and across EU to Nottingham, playtested for days, took all the feedback, called them out by name on stream in front of everyone... And then just threw all their thoughts out the window and took a dump on the new rules.

Especially after they worked closely with the SCGT organizers to make TGH the hit that it was. Makes sense.

 nintura wrote:


You might as well not try. These people are looking for reasons to bitch and moan. They always will.

"They haven't told us EXACTLY what they did and how they tested it and every single minute detail, so it MUST suck" etc etc etc.


guys there is a difference between play testing the core rules to remove unclear situations in the game, to see how the core rules work out in "real" and just testing to balance point cots of units

if the big play test with all the special people out there was "core rules are fixed, just report of units are to cheap or to expensive in matched play"
you get something different than "we want to know of double movement for charges will break the game, pls just test melee only vs heavy shooting lists"

and just doing one of this you still can claim to have done "playtesting"

and of course devs ignore reports that are outside the question in the first place
you have to do that, otherwise you won't get the data you need. if he question is "is melee to strong" every report regarding shooting will be ignored

and than claiming that every existing unit was tested means nothing special if you don't know what was the test about

 jreilly89 wrote:

So why not sit out and wait to see how balanced 8th really is? No one's forcing you to buy 8th on the day it's released.

that's the only thing we can really do

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/26 13:28:37


Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Connecticut

macluvin wrote:
So did anything useful come up over 72 pages of comments besides all the arguing and bickering about how 8th Edition is going to either be AoS or not and why that either sucks or rocks? i read 2 pages and feel like thats 99 percent of what i got.


Welcome to Dakka.

Blood Angels, Custodes, Tzeentch, Alpha Legion, Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Imperial Knights, Tau, Genestealer Cult.

I have a problem.

Being contrary for the sake of being contrary doesn't make you unique, it makes you annoying.

 Purifier wrote:
Using your rules isn't being a dick.
 
   
Made in ua
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





 eauxlune wrote:
I'm lost with what exactly your problem is.

That people believe GW claims about their new rules being good and balanced before seeing them.
Maybe they would be, who knows, but before we themselves see those rules believing GW managers' claims and spreading them is foolishness, especially after years of of "legally don't count as outright lies" and incompetence on their part.

"It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change."
Charles Darwin, first champion of Tzeench 
   
Made in ca
Bounding Ultramarine Assault Trooper




Montreal, Quebec

Zustiur wrote:
I think a few posters in this thread need to sit down and actually watch the live stream GW did. The playtesters have not been ignored. They made that very clear.


This interesting video from Recius yesterday point out the fact that they spent 8 to 10 hours in conference calls with GW talking about the rules

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNuwHXXr3XQ&t=597s


* I have to say that NewGW impresses me a lot... 
   
Made in us
Orc Bully with a Peg Leg





 jreilly89 wrote:
Any word on how much paper rules will be?


There'll be free physical copies of the core rules in GW and independent stores. Should be easy enough to print off the digital version too.

Maybe they'll add the core rules to the back of various books as well, like they did with a lot of the AoS books?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/26 13:33:53


 
   
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






 Mezmerro wrote:
 eauxlune wrote:
I'm lost with what exactly your problem is.

That people believe GW claims about their new rules being good and balanced before seeing them.
Maybe they would be, who knows, but before we themselves see those rules believing GW managers' claims and spreading them is foolishness, especially after years of of "legally don't count as outright lies" and incompetence on their part.



Well, Terminators having 2 Wounds and Dreads having multiple wounds is certainly a step in the right direction. Vehicles won't be hot garbage now

~1.5k
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Made in gb
[DCM]
Stonecold Gimster






macluvin wrote:
So did anything useful come up over 72 pages of comments besides all the arguing and bickering about how 8th Edition is going to either be AoS or not and why that either sucks or rocks? i read 2 pages and feel like thats 99 percent of what i got.


I think to summarise, we had;

AoS Sucks
AoS is awesome
New 40k will be like AoS
New 40k won't be like AoS
New 40k has been playtested extensively
New 40k hasn't been playtested extensively
Land Raiders can be killed by Lasguns
Land Raiders shouldn't be killed by Lasguns
Lots of crying
My precious painted models shouldn't die
I like killing people's precious painted models
Giant Sace Marines are awesome and real
Giant Space Marine pics are fake
AoS still sucks
AoS is still awesome

Did I miss anything?

I'm glad the OP was updated with the video info. Thanks for whoever did that.

How long till GW release 40k? I'm tiring of the panto already. :-(

Currently most played: Silent Death, Mars Code Aurora, Battletech, Warcrow and Infinity. 
   
Made in us
Orc Bully with a Peg Leg





 jreilly89 wrote:
Well, Terminators having 2 Wounds and Dreads having multiple wounds is certainly a step in the right direction. Vehicles won't be hot garbage now


I can't wait to field my Monolith and Command Barge under the new rules

Edit: and my Warsycthe Lychguard too!

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/04/26 13:43:24


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Steelcity

Until your dreadnought dies to lasgun anyway

Keeper of the DomBox
Warhammer Armies - Click to see galleries of fully painted armies
32,000, 19,000, Renegades - 10,000 , 7,500,  
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard




 Kirasu wrote:
Until your dreadnought dies to lasgun anyway


I'm gonna guess Guardsmen firing Lasguns are something like Hit on 4s, S3 against T7 with be 6s only, no armor modifier.

With a 3+ save it'll be 300 shots to deal 8 wounds. I think that's fine.

Unless they're hit on 5s, at which point it's more. I'm sure commands will make it easier.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/26 13:51:15


 
   
Made in au
Liche Priest Hierophant







Since everyone is so obsessed with Lasguns, we can only hope the impending weapons article has their profile.
   
Made in ua
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





Requizen wrote:
 Kirasu wrote:
Until your dreadnought dies to lasgun anyway


I'm gonna guess Guardsmen firing Lasguns are something like Hit on 4s, S3 against T7 with be 6s only, no armor modifier.

With a 3+ save it'll be 300 shots to deal 8 wounds. I think that's fine.

Unless they're hit on 5s, at which point it's more. I'm sure commands will make it easier.

Just made a math. 1000 pts of guardsmen armed witn lasguns only would FRF a Deadnought in 4 turns assuming none of them die fotr all 4 turns. yeah, totally a waste of firepower

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/26 13:58:35


"It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change."
Charles Darwin, first champion of Tzeench 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Glasgow

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Since everyone is so obsessed with Lasguns, we can only hope the impending weapons article has their profile.


Lasguns are 72" Range and they are AP-10 and Damage 10+10D6

Lascannons are an autowin on a 2 up d6 roll.

I have seen it... in the wraithbone circuits...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/26 13:59:41


 
   
Made in ca
Mutilatin' Mad Dok





 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Since everyone is so obsessed with Lasguns, we can only hope the impending weapons article has their profile.

In the Imperium's darkest hour, the will of the Emperor finally unleashes humanity's greatest secret weapon:
Across the galaxy, the power limiters hidden in the lasgun of every guardsman disengages. Humanity is saved as their enemies are swept away in a tidal wave of searing pink light
   
Made in es
Brutal Black Orc




Barcelona, Spain

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
macluvin wrote:
So did anything useful come up over 72 pages of comments besides all the arguing and bickering about how 8th Edition is going to either be AoS or not and why that either sucks or rocks? i read 2 pages and feel like thats 99 percent of what i got.


I think to summarise, we had;

AoS Sucks
AoS is awesome
New 40k will be like AoS
New 40k won't be like AoS
New 40k has been playtested extensively
New 40k hasn't been playtested extensively
Land Raiders can be killed by Lasguns
Land Raiders shouldn't be killed by Lasguns
Lots of crying
My precious painted models shouldn't die
I like killing people's precious painted models
Giant Sace Marines are awesome and real
Giant Space Marine pics are fake
AoS still sucks
AoS is still awesome

Did I miss anything?

I'm glad the OP was updated with the video info. Thanks for whoever did that.

How long till GW release 40k? I'm tiring of the panto already. :-(


You missed people pointing out that GW will/may ignore the playtesting or the contrary. As an aside, I'll say you're not the only one by a long shot.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/26 14:05:38


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Requizen wrote:
 Kirasu wrote:
Until your dreadnought dies to lasgun anyway


I'm gonna guess Guardsmen firing Lasguns are something like Hit on 4s, S3 against T7 with be 6s only, no armor modifier.

With a 3+ save it'll be 300 shots to deal 8 wounds. I think that's fine.

Unless they're hit on 5s, at which point it's more. I'm sure commands will make it easier.

Maybe the lowly lasgun has a +1 armor modifier. Making that dread a 2+ sv.
Also do we know if the shadow war range modifier on wpns are coming in any form?
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard




gungo wrote:
Requizen wrote:
 Kirasu wrote:
Until your dreadnought dies to lasgun anyway


I'm gonna guess Guardsmen firing Lasguns are something like Hit on 4s, S3 against T7 with be 6s only, no armor modifier.

With a 3+ save it'll be 300 shots to deal 8 wounds. I think that's fine.

Unless they're hit on 5s, at which point it's more. I'm sure commands will make it easier.

Maybe the lowly lasgun has a +1 armor modifier. Making that dread a 2+ sv.
Also do we know if the shadow war range modifier on wpns are coming in any form?


We'll see that today when the Weapon post comes out.
   
Made in gr
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy




Athens

I really hope that bolters would be the vanilla weapon with no armour rend

Stomp soflty and carry a big choppa.

-Winstork churchill- 
   
Made in jp
Sister Vastly Superior




Germany - Bodensee/Ravensburg area

 Rippy wrote:
So this is saved as "New Hero Banner" on the GW website. Who is the new hero? :O


Papa Nurgle did nothing wrong.

Dark it was, and dire of form
the beast that laid them low
Hrothgar's sharpened frost-forged blade
to deal a fatal blow
he stalked and hunted day and night
and came upon it's lair
With sword and shield Hrothgar fought
and earned the name of slayer


- The saga of Hrothgar the Beastslayer 
   
 
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