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 Kanluwen wrote:

Not so fast, hoss.
Points are still a thing sadly.

When we only had Open Play for AoS, this was the attitude everyone tended to have. "Wow, these units I haven't used since whenever are finally getting used again! Hooray!".

Then points and Matched Play came back and poof, we're basically back to the same metas as before just with different units.

But by making the points separate from the datasheets, with plans to update annually, metas can change. It won't be perfect, but it can be better.

The new "power level" points system is also a plus in this direction, as it lets you take things you want without having to worry about whether you're spending optimally.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
You know what's best about all of this? Every unit is probably going to be worth taking to some degree. There's so many units now that are so useless they're worthless. The IG codex is full of them. Not anymore.

Not so fast, hoss.

Points are still a thing sadly.

Their stated goal is still to make everything useful.

Shooting is problematic in AoS, currently, yes. But that doesn't mean they aren't doing something about it.

I don't think you're understanding the reason I posted that comment.

When "Matched Play" becomes the default(it will, because heavens forbid you actually discuss things for a few flipping minutes or do something other than just build a list of the high end stuff that you already had)--it means we're literally right back where we started with points efficiency being the name of the game.

That T7 Dread ain't looking so hot now. Should'a been T8.

And Marines can save against Lascannons. Why?

 Formerly Wu wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Not so fast, hoss.
Points are still a thing sadly.

When we only had Open Play for AoS, this was the attitude everyone tended to have. "Wow, these units I haven't used since whenever are finally getting used again! Hooray!".

Then points and Matched Play came back and poof, we're basically back to the same metas as before just with different units.

But by making the points separate from the datasheets, with plans to update annually, metas can change. It won't be perfect, but it can be better.

Points being separate from datasheets won't do diddly if they still have points to begin with.

That is, and always will be, my beef with Matched Play. Bringing points back, officially, was a mistake in my mind.

The new "power level" points system is also a plus in this direction, as it lets you take things you want without having to worry about whether you're spending optimally.

The way it's been stated, "power level" is tied only to Narrative play.

I might be making an assumption but it does seem to be their intended goal judging by what they said and what they're doing.

I'm sorry I said it though because of course some people here are going to start gurning about it. They're gurning about everything else so why not that too.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
You know what's best about all of this? Every unit is probably going to be worth taking to some degree. There's so many units now that are so useless they're worthless. The IG codex is full of them. Not anymore.

Not so fast, hoss.

Points are still a thing sadly.

To a certain extent. Narrative play is a thing as well. Even then, if they really did playtest every unit in the game and balanced the points based on experience, the points might line up better than they used to. I don't have high hopes, but if I can field my Lascannon Devastators, Tactical Squads in Rhinos, and Dreadnoughts without feeling I made a huge sacrifice in effectiveness, isn't that a good thing?

On a side note, I asked Pete if Pistols were going to be priced appropriately and he said he hoped so. I am really hoping for a good reason to run Plasma Pistols again. The Blood Angels Tactical Squad has a really cool winged PP. I want to run an Assault Squad with three of them (though Flamers are really good now, enough so that my Crimson Fists will probably show up with a Squad of Assault Marines for the first time in years). Heck, I want a reason to put a melee weapon on a Tactical Sergeant again. We might actually be in a place where that could be a thing.

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
Is there a summary i can look at to find out the changes that we know so far?

This thread is pretty big, I don't fancy reading through all of it!

Yes, warhammer-community.com

Everything else here is largely discussions of that stuff.

Not trying to be a huge downer, but that's my baggage regarding GHB coming up.

Hopefully everything will be super cool.

I still hope Rough Riders go away though...

 Kanluwen wrote:
I still hope Rough Riders go away though...

GET OUT. NOW. <sulks>

 Desubot wrote:

ERJAK wrote:


No, they are radically changing every aspect of the game but leaving points exactly the same forever.

did i miss this?

You missed the sarcasm.

(Obviously stuff will be repointed)

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I still hope Rough Riders go away though...

GET OUT. NOW. <sulks>

I'd ride off into the sunset, but they don't sell Rough Riders anymore...



I should clarify:
I hope they get rules, but in the same way that "legacy" stuff from WHFB got them. The rules are there if you have them or want to convert them; but they're not really around in any meaningful way for the time being.

It leaves the door open to bring the stuff back(the Tomb Kings, for example, actually made an appearance early on in the AoS fluff with Nagash having to deal with rebels within the Realm of Death that rode chariots and had elaborate headdresses) if they figure a way they want to do it.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I might be making an assumption but it does seem to be their intended goal judging by what they said and what they're doing.

I'm sorry I said it though because of course some people here are going to start gurning about it. They're gurning about everything else so why not that too.

and you think that making some unit useless was once their intention ? Being irrationally over excited and optimistic is as bad ad the opposite

So did they give any indication how the psychic phase will work?

 streetsamurai wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I might be making an assumption but it does seem to be their intended goal judging by what they said and what they're doing.

I'm sorry I said it though because of course some people here are going to start gurning about it. They're gurning about everything else so why not that too.

and you think that making some unit useless was once their intention ? Being irrationally over excited and optimistic is as bad ad the opposite

That's not what he was saying at all. He didn't say units were deliberately made useless, nor that anyone intended that. It's not untrue that many options are far from optimal whereas others are auto-takes in most Codexes. A shakeup of that is welcome, and tends to happen with a new edition anyway, as new rules change how things interact. The difference this time is the ground-up rework and the 'everything can hurt everything' approach that will hopefully stop some things being invalidated before they're fielded. Add in the different way weapons can cause multiple wounds and many things could get taken out of the dusty cabinet for a new spin on the tabletop...

Nvs wrote:
So did they give any indication how the psychic phase will work?

Not yet - but I would love for the old 2nd edition mini-card-game to come back though!

And yes, I know most probably wouldn't, but I loved it!

Movement is up tomorrow.

Nvs wrote:
So did they give any indication how the psychic phase will work?

Read the OP and the handful of articles they've published and you'll know as much as everyone else.

In short, no.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That T7 Dread ain't looking so hot now. Should'a been T8.

The picture is that lascannons are likely more useful. Dreadnoughts are likely no less useful, but hopefully more.

And Marines can save against Lascannons. Why?

Because it doesn't really matter unless you have nothing else to shoot with your lascannon? Glancing shot. Low energy. Doesn't matter.

I wonder what plasma will be like

s7 -2? lol ork nobs in eavy armour shaking off plasma bolts

Although thematically it might not make sense i think the rumour is cover ups your AS so isn't as reliable for hordes camping but they are better in the open vs small arms. Kinda promotes more movement and more dynamic games than current objective camping in ruins.

The whole vibe of this release i'm getting is attrition and tactics and movement. Moving things to a middle ground, look at 40k now and you have so much overkill e.g. this wipes you out right away or your stuff has zero chance agains this... it now seems a lot more measured like a rainbow instead of black grey and white.

On another note, i knew there was a reason they made that Thousand sons box with all those flamers! they'll prob be -1

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I might be making an assumption but it does seem to be their intended goal judging by what they said and what they're doing.

I'm sorry I said it though because of course some people here are going to start gurning about it. They're gurning about everything else so why not that too.

and you think that making some unit useless was once their intention ? Being irrationally over excited and optimistic is as bad ad the opposite

That's not what he was saying at all. He didn't say units were deliberately made useless, nor that anyone intended that. It's not untrue that many options are far from optimal whereas others are auto-takes in most Codexes. A shakeup of that is welcome, and tends to happen with a new edition anyway, as new rules change how things interact. The difference this time is the ground-up rework and the 'everything can hurt everything' approach that will hopefully stop some things being invalidated before they're fielded. Add in the different way weapons can cause multiple wounds and many things could get taken out of the dusty cabinet for a new spin on the tabletop...

Yet, that doesn't mean at all that no unit will be useless, since even if anything can hurt anything, some units will still be useless if other units can pour more damage for the same point cost. At this point, even thinking that the game will be more balanced based on only a few phrases made by the developpers (like they would say that the game isn't balanced) is magical thinking at his best. Don't get me wrong, i'm hoping it is the case. But I'll wait for the actual rules before popping the champagne


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:

Nvs wrote:
So did they give any indication how the psychic phase will work?

Not yet - but I would love for the old 2nd edition mini-card-game to come back though!

And yes, I know most probably wouldn't, but I loved it!

Hell yeah

Not once did I say that GW set out to make units useless. Some just became useless due to changes in rules over the years or whatever. And with this complete rebuild from top to bottom everything can be remade on an equal footing. Which is what they seem to be aiming for.

 Desubot wrote:

ERJAK wrote:


No, they are radically changing every aspect of the game but leaving points exactly the same forever.

did i miss this?

 streetsamurai wrote:
But I'll wait for the actual rules before popping the champagne

Don't let it stop ya snarkin' tho, ya hear? ;-)

 Bottle wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

ERJAK wrote:


No, they are radically changing every aspect of the game but leaving points exactly the same forever.

did i miss this?

Heh mine blew up years ago. cant tell what from what.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
But I'll wait for the actual rules before popping the champagne

Don't let it stop ya snarkin' tho, ya hear? ;-)

not everyone that isn't as naive as you are is snarking ya know. In fact, I,ve said numerous times that ,m pretty optimistic about this new edition. Doesn't means that i'll act like it's the best thing ever, even if we barely have any info on it.

This has just appeared.

Had a thought on Inv saves too. I expect they are gone and will be replaced for stuff like daemons who only had an inv save with an armour save that cannot be modified.

 RyanAvx wrote:
This has just appeared.

Already posted in a couple of threads, with the full window display showing pre-order and release dates.

 Desubot wrote:

ERJAK wrote:


No, they are radically changing every aspect of the game but leaving points exactly the same forever.

did i miss this?

Only the sarcasm.

 RyanAvx wrote:
This has just appeared.

Spoiler:

Already covered HERE.